(Music plays) >> The final GOP gubernatorial debate, concerns with the teacher literacy training rollout, plus the teachers union interest is McCormick and more.

From the television studios at WFYI, it's Indiana Week In Review, the weekending April 26 to 24.

>> Indiana Week In Review is made possible by supporters of Indiana Public Broadcasting stations.

>> This week, five of Indiana's six Republican notorious candidates showed up to the primary spinal debate.

US Senator Mike Braun opted to stay in Washington, DC for a foreign vote.

>> With Braun absent, many of the attacks were aimed at lieutenant governor, Suzanne Crouch, a particular focus was her campaigns tentpole issue, pledge to make Indiana's income tax.

Curtis Hill says the state is apprehensive approach to tax reform.

>> The income tax proposal is a gimmick.

It is not realistic.

>> Brad Chambers says Crouch is not credible on the issue.

>> Suzanne Crouch and Mike Braun in their 15 years of combined service, public service, have raised taxes 50 times.

>> At that, Crouch hit back.

>> My opponents are entitled to their own opinions, they are not entitled to their own facts.

State representatives, I'd taxes a dozen times.

>> Some candidates spark as much with the moderators as with each.

The Indiana debate commissions format is income cutting standard length canned answers and thought to achieve that in part by asking rapidfire questions designed to elicit yes or no responses.

Many of the candidates took issue with that and came to a head around questions focused on election integrity.

In this exchange between Jamie Reitenour and moderator Jon Schwantes.

>> It seem like you are trying to set us up and cause division in our party.

We don't appreciate it.

>> I think the party is doing quite capably on its own creating subdivision.

>> Eric Doden is the one candidate who did not argue with moderator or his fellow candidates.

He remained focused on his campaign talking.

>> Have more plans in writing that everyone on the stage component.

>> Chimeric election day is May 7.

>> Did voters learn anything in this debate?

It is the first question for our Indiana Week In Review panel.

Democrat Lara Beck, Republican Joey Fox, Jon Schwantes host of Indiana Lawmakers, and Niki Kelly, editor in chief of the Indiana Capital Chronicle.

I am Indiana public broadcasting steakhouse chief Brandon Smith.

We have seen what limited public polling there is, but there is a signifcant percentage out there.

Did this help them make up their minds?

>> Sure.

All debates and any chance you have got to the candidates speak their minds and answer questions is to inform voters.

This was a controversial debate both informant how it worked.

Our moderators are here.

I would be remiss if I party to say that certainly a lot of us felt that you became a part of that debate in a way that five in a way that 5% of that would try to do.

You had to live with what was on the stage.

To answer your question, I think we learn things.

>> Would you think of best in that debate?

>> That is a really hard question.

Probably Mike Braun, because he did not come, really.

No offense John, I think you did a great job with what you had to work with.

Mike Braun.

If you are the front runner, it does not serve you at all to be standing up on the stage.

And my take away from this debate as well, is it has reached the time of the campaign the campaigns get to the silly season.

It is close, there is a lot on the line, there is a lot of street credit if you will amongst your peers.

And what is happening is, I think people get chippy.

They get rude.

I think they take things moderator.

If you literally cannot answer a question from Jon Schwantes, you should not be running for governor.

That is what debates are about.

Frankly, it is just disappointing when that happens.

>> I want to ask both of you this question because you brought up Mike Braun who was not there.

Are you surprised that the candidates on stage did not go after Mike Braun a lot?

He was mentioned a couple of times, particularly on an immigration question, which makes sense, but are you surprised that was Mike Braun sent and not able to fight back, that the other campaigns will just piling on?

>> I think what you have got is a TV barrage against campaign spending against Mike Braun.

As all the candidates trying to provide, John may certainly disagree, the positive version of themselves at this and their ideas.

I look at somebody like Suzanne Crouch is running the most disciplined the campaigns and is trying to explain why she can't cut taxes and letting everybody else on stage say they want the government to keep more of your money.

I think those makes for some interesting dynamics.

>> Are you surprised they did not go after Braun?

>> I am a little bit surprised.

I also think what happens, and Joe we can probably attest to this.

Interparty fights are worse than when you are fighting the opposite party.

They are worse.

Emotions are high, people are mad, friendships are.

But they are.

You have been through it.

You get into the environment, the stakes feel incredibly high, and they just lose focus and patience and discipline.

That was a great opportunity for them to go after Mike Braun.

They lost it because they are so busy fighting with each other because they are so bad one of them is not breaking out.

>> The debate themselves and the moderator to be fair, became a big part of the story both in the night of and aftermath.

Where did things go off the rails for you?

>> Why did I get this question?

(Laughs) >> I am the other one left.

>> He is going last on this topic.

>> I think there were a few questions that I did not necessarily understand why they were asked, or they were asked in a confusing manner.

I apologize, Jon.

They were also the yes no things, hitting people down, but they really did not seem to like that.

It is OK to do yes nos on very cut and dry issues,... >> Short sharp to the point.

>> Right.

The candidates felt they had to have more discussion about those guests knows for most of the yes no's.

>> Jon, raise your hand (Laughs).

No.

Do you think you ended up becoming a part of, inserting yourself into the debate more than a moderator should?

>> Really.

If anything, I think it might have been a performance, but for that reason, I wish I had done a better job of getting them off of their talking points.

I stood up there, I could have recited he had watched the debates and studied the campaign, if there had been somebody fallen ill at the last minute, could have given it work forward each of their points.

Shame on me for not sitting more variety.

The idea of the yes no questions, that was not going to be in theory the only opportunity to weigh in.

We wanted to see where the temperature was collectively, and delve into each one if there were outliers or individuals.

It was not as if, is this policy the answer to the world's most affecting problems?

Yes or no?

It was a starting point.

It was not designed to be the ending point.

>> Do you feel like, because this is how it felt in the media room.

I have covered a few debates not including a few debate commission debates.

It felt like the campaigns themselves, that there was not good enough communication between the commission and the campaigns themselves or the expectations.

As the debate commission explained to us afterwards, the goal here was to move you off of, it is the same format, it is one minutes apiece to the same questions you hear in all of these debates that try to move off of that and shake it up a little.

Give the moderator control to let the conversation go longer if it needs to, or cut them off to get away from the canned answers.

I don't feel like the campaigns understood that at all.

Was there a communication breakdown there?

>> I don't know, was not part of the conversation.

I did my part.

My boss that night was the people of the state of Indiana.

Whether I am doing journalism in this context or with Indiana - Lawmakers or with the debate, I try to picture another record is set straight as much as if someone talks about federal funds with 10 comments, that means federal funds, and you cannot have a K-12 educational system without federal funds.

I want to try to make sure that people understand.

I am only advocating for Hoosier voters.

That was my loss at that event.

>> The science of reading, as a body of scientific research about how children learn the building blocks of literacy.

State law requires schools to begin learning the method this year.

From WFYI's education desk, Rachel Fradette reports on how one step in the process to teach educators this process has been met with strong opposition.

>> Educators with a license to teach preschool to sixth grade or special education, must learn how to use the sites of reading.

Each of those teachers are required to complete 80 hours of training take a test, and pass it.

The State Department of education unveiled the plan this month.

Indiana State teachers Association president keep handle says teachers don't have enough information yet.

>> If they are able to get clear direction from their school district, so it just shows a complete disrespect.

>> Incoming teachers had to complete literacy training beginning in July 2025, for they go for an additional license.

Current teachers must do the same on or after July 2027.

Or until they moved to their teaching license.

The education Department says they will continue to answer questions from educators.

>> Lara Beck, Indiana has a critical literacy problem.

Is the pushback to the training requirement from teachers reasonable?

>> I don't necessarily think it is unreasonable that they are concerned about how this is implement it, for his.

I think a lot of times you can have legislation that comes through that sounds really great, but there is also the execution of it.

I don't know what has gone into the research at all the work the Department of Education has.

We have to assume they are making a good-faith effort.

To me, but some of this is, is it is also a symptom of the larger problem.

Every legislative session it feels the Republicans are the super majority.

They moved the goalpost on education.

They see we are not hitting our reading attainment.

We need to change this.

It may be a very good reason for this.

It just feels like teachers are constantly the target and it is unilaterally applied to them, and what I find really concerning is, there is one strategy to boost reading.

That is universal pre-k. We have never passed universal pre-k. How are we going to expect third-graders to be reading Efficiency when kindergarten is not even mandatory Indiana.

We have to take a step back because what ends up happening, I don't know these guys go to a legislative conference Republicans in a white paper on this is what you're supposed to do or abuse says this is the latest and greatest, but it seems to me that we are just not what we need to be fixed, and that is that early childhood prevention.

That makes the biggest difference.

I have a hard time with the fact kindergarten is not Midori in this state and you are expected a first grade teacher to teach a child may never have cracked a book when they walk in the door when they are seven years old.

>> I think there are things everyone can agree to.

One, Indiana has a literacy problem.

Number two, the science of reading with all of the data we have seems like a great effort to improve that.

The thing that I think we are all agreeing on, is how we are getting teachers to make sure they are teaching the science of reading.

Is this one-size-fits-all that everybody, regardless of what you are teaching, K-6 or special ed, you have to go through a gap as of this training and take a test to get this certification.

>> I think it is reasonable.

Reading into every academic subject.

You cannot be successful in academics if you cannot read.

We have looked at this year at the super majority past the requirement for third grade literacy before moving on.

We have an economy is growing and changing, and we cannot hope to have kids be successful in this state if they cannot read.

I think the urgency around this is well-founded.

Can the Department of Education take good feedback and work on implementation?

Sue.

I think the sense of urgency is important.

I would rather make a few mistakes of action rather than no action.

>> To that point, is that the right way forward?

Maybe this will be bumpy for a little while, will get to the place we need to go.

>> It will be be.

Anytime you make a change the significant bumps in the road.

Again, teachers are not monolithic.

It is not they all have the background and credentials and understanding.

That is also going to require some effort here.

Let's just require this is the right science.

I am old enough to remember maybe it is phonics or even forget what the different ones are called.

I know science has come a long way.

Let's assume this is the right what we do need to do something because the states.

It is not acceptable to have one in five third-graders not meeting the standard.

It will help them arguably for the rest of their lives.

>> There is plenty... Ship think we need to do something -- I think we need to do something.

There will be bumps in the road.

>> How do you see this playing out over the next?

>> They will probably make some adjustments.

One thing to remember is 80 hours is a significant amount of training.

That is basically 80 hours on their own.

These contracts reset.

There is not two weeks of extra time sitting around for a teacher.

That will come out of their personal time to do the training.

I think that is a fair question.

>> You also have teachers who are on a balanced calendar.

They might get out of school at the end of May and are back in school on 15th to start the next year.

>> Time for viewer feedback.

Each weekly post an unscientific online question.

This week's question is should all pre-K-6 grade and special education teachers complete 80 hours of literacy training regardless of existing experience and training?

A, yes, B, no.

Last week we asked whether you are confident in Indiana University president must leadership.

Percent said yes, 61% say no.

If you would like to take the poll, go to WFYI.org/IWIR and look for the bull.

The political arm of Indiana's largest teachers union is putting its resources by Democrat Jennifer McCormick in the race for governor.

>> Keith Gambill has the Indiana State teachers Association and is split action committee.

He says teachers, parents, and students what the governor was a forward thinking and inclusive message built by personal experience in schools.

Gamble says Jennifer McCormick will provide that in the bully pulpit of the governor's office.

>> That message will get out.

That internet is what we believe will help drive policy change.

>> McCormick says she will be a commonsense voice for bipartisanship in the statehouse.

>> We are not going to survive as stick and educated and unhealthy.

We have got to fight for our teachers and our kids.

>> McCormick is unopposed in the Democratic primary.

>> Niki Kelly, we have seen teachers make a major impact in the statewide race.

Can they do it again here?

>> They can if they really solidified.

Obviously it is tens of thousands of voters or teachers.

It is absolutely possible.

We saw it when Glenda Ritz was elected.

Do I think it will happen?

I don't know, but we have seen it in the past.

It can happen again.

>> You just pointed out, in the last topic, teachers are not a monolith.

There are lots of teachers who probably support Jennifer McCormick and what she believes in.

There are also probably a lot of teachers who don't.

So can teachers make a significant impact in the race for governor?

With Democrats always say facing an uphill battle.

>> Sure.

It is nice to have an endorsement from some of the big ticket once, if you are a law in order Canada, the state police, state police lights, if you are a teacher, it is nice to have a teacher in school board associations acknowledge that might be involved.

Certainly the current efforts in the organization and support, that is what really would make a difference.

We have seen it make a difference in the past.

And teachers oftentimes respected members of their community know the territory and theoretically can, are pretty good about giving instructions.

You line up here, you like up there.

Not always in the context of voting in the polling place, but it can have an impact if the enthusiasm level is there, and if they work coherently.

You are right.

It is not monolithic.

There will be those that support other candidates.

>> One of the things everyone talked about me made the shift from an elected to an appointed state superintendent public instruction which was after Jennifer McCormick, was it puts more of a spotlight on the governor's race when it comes to education, because now that office opens at issue.

It is going to be an issue in this campaign.

We just talked about teachers being frustrated with the state rule out a major requirement is not the only thing that teachers in schools have been facing under the Republicans in the last few years.

Positive and negative, certainly in the minds of the teachers.

Is there enough rest that can be directed at Republicans to make a difference in the gubernatorial race?

>> No.

The teachers union is giving $1 million to Jennifer McCormick which is much more than she is going to raise coupling to raise otherwise in this race.

It is simply not going to be enough.

There is not enough to overcome what is a conservative state that has chosen to put education with the governor and has Republicans majorities that have tried to push into higher achievement for kids.

I respect Doctor McCormick's experience as a teacher, there is no way this propelled her in the governor's office.

>> The dynamic, you mentioned the Glenda Ritz race.

That was a shock to everyone at the time.

Teachers organized and were upset with what happened at the state level, and took that out on superintendent Tony Bennett.

That was hyperfocus, education only campaign.

This, while there is a lot more that goes into the brighter spotlight in the governor's race, it is not the only issue in the governor's race.

>> It is not the only issue.

>> Can teachers make the kind of impact they once had?

>> I think we will see this election.

I think we will see that and how that comes out.

You have the funds that are into it.

You have the organization that comes in.

I think it is funny listening to Joey talk.

These are the same things like what the Ritz and Joey Bennett were running against each other.

I think we also have to remember about teachers, that some school districts, that is the largest employer in the community.

If you have got a school district as being defunded, they are struggling to do the things they need to do, people I think in most communities realize that teachers and school administration take on much larger role that just welcome your kid in the will at 8 o'clock and sending them out at 330 in the afternoon.

Teachers are the coaches and running the knowledgeable programs.

Teachers administrators are doing everything nowadays.

>> In the social workers.

>> The social workers in the school counselors.

I think it is a school community piece is we cannot cite of.

And, people do get tired when a goalpost is being moved and you don't know how to navigate the systems that are put in place by the legislature.

>> A joint report by Mirror Indy in the Indianapolis Star this week revealed the gubernatorial candidate Brad Chambers real estate company has twice failed to repay a multibillion-dollar loan to the city of Indianapolis.

>> The story shows that it 2011, Chambers Buckingham Companies received $86 million in a loan from Indy to build a major develoing on the southeast side of the city's downtown, and got years to pay it back.

That deadline in 2021 came and went without full repayment.

The city extended the due date to December 2023.

Mirror Indy and of the star revealed Buckingham miss that deadline as well and still owes nearly $69 million.

In a statement to the outlet, Chambers said it would pay back the city this year.

>> Jon Schwantes, if Brad Chambers had been hoping for momentum handing into election day, certainly all the money he expected, you would think he is hoping for that, do something like this derail it?

>> It does not help you if you keep the extent that you affect momentum, to keep people focused message, but you a competent architect of economic development at multiple levels.

Especially at this late stage, your can explain way and explain new situations like this.

Coming in the final weeks of the campaign cannot help, let's put it that way.

It is not welcome the development.

>> This would be an issue for any of the candidates in this race.

Read Chambers in particular, he and Mike Braun did the same thing.

It is about running the state like a business.

The state needs a CEO.

I am an outsider because I spent 40 years building this company.

It turns out that company you say you want to run the state like has not paid back a multibillion-dollar loan to a government, to the taxpayers of the government.

>> I do think it was intriguing that no one from the city of Indianapolis was willing to talk about it.

I could not tell from the story I gets, but the impact of it is.

Who is getting hurt by it?

Is there more interest that is being paid by the city?

Who is it handicapping?

Obviously, and we don't know if there was an agreement behind the scenes that the company could wait a couple more years to pay it off.

So it looks bad, but I also feel like I don't know quite enough about it to fully form an opinion.

>> I want to talk a little bit about that, because that was something some journalists brought about social media around the story.

I think it is worth talking about.

The lack of transparency from the city of Indianapolis on an issue like this, even if they are not still paying interest, even if everything has been paid off, they are waiting to get paid back.

Nearly $69 million!

I can think of some things the city of Indianapolis can do with $69 million.

>> I get his money like that.

That money would pay the bondholders.

It is not like money they can go spend on other priorities.

>> OK, so even accepting that, why isn't the city, the city is still run by Democrats as far as I am aware, it seemed like they have an opportunity to go "Look at this Republican screwing us over!"

Why is a single human being on the record not talking about this issue?

>> I think some of you journalists need to get off of social media, because it is amplifying and chamber, no offense!

Because there are real people out there.

I won't be asked back.

>> It is me as much as anybody else!

>> (Laughs) Coming from the perspective of I am not speaking on behalf of the city, be clear, but coming from someone who is working in a patient was for local governments, sometimes the less you say, the better.

You don't there is potential pending legal action.

You don't know that.

You don't know if they have been trying to get this money back and they have a good relationship with them.

You don't know what agreements were in place.

Sometimes the less said, the better, till you have more clarity.

I often counsel clients in the situation.

You don't want to get out ahead of your skis and have it come back.

Somebody finds a degree somewhere.

Better be quite.

>> Buys all the time we have.

That is Indiana Week In Review for this week.

Our panel is Democrat Lara Beck.

Republican Joey Fox.

Jon Schwantes of Indiana Lawmakers, and Niki Kelly of the Indiana Capital Chronicle.

You can find Indiana Week In Review's podcast and episodes at WFYI.org/IWIR, the PBS App.

I am Brandon Smith at Indiana Public Broadcasting.

Join us next time because a lot can happen in an Indiana leak.

(Music plays) >> A lot can happen in an Indiana leak.

(Music plays) >> the opinions expressed are solely those of the panelists.

Indiana Week In Review is a WFYI production in association with Indiana's public broadcasting stations.