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(upbeat music) (gong ringing) - Hello and welcome to The City Club of Cleveland, where we are devoted to conversations of consequence that help democracy thrive.

I'm Dan Moulthrop, I'm chief executive here and a proud member.

Today is April 9th, you're with the virtual City Club forum.

Once again, and continuing, we are still live from the studios of our public media partner, 90.3 WCPN Ideastream.

We are very grateful to them for their partnership.

Two years before NFL quarterback Colin Kaepernick took a knee, somewhat famously, during the national anthem to protest police brutality, Cleveland Browns wide receiver, Andrew Hawkins made headlines for wearing a t-shirt calling for justice in the police shooting of Tamir Rice.

Hawk, as he is known, walked onto the field before a 2014 Browns-Bengals match wearing a t-shirt with the words, 'justice for Tamir Rice and John Crawford III.'

John Crawford had been shot while buying a toy gun for his children.

At the time, Hawk was one of only a handful of professional athletes speaking out against police brutality against African-Americans.

And since that time, Hawk and his former teammate on the Browns, Joe Thomas, have used their status as professional athletes to raise awareness of systemic racism, police brutality, and the need to create equity throughout society.

The two are hosts of a podcast called "The ThomaHawk Show".

And they both work as NFL analysts for various media outlets.

In June of 2020, after the murder of George Floyd, Joe Thomas authored a piece in The Player's Tribune entitled, "Just Being 'Not Racist' Is Not Good Enough" describing coming to terms with his own privilege and calling on others to join him in becoming anti-racist.

Today we will talk with Hawk and Joe Thomas about their friendship, their time on the field, and their work to advance racial equity.

If you have questions, you want to join our conversation, text those questions to 330-541-5794.

The number again is 330-541-5794.

If you're on Twitter, tweet your question @TheCityClub and we will work it into the program.

Andrew Hawkins, Joe Thomas, welcome to The City Club of Cleveland.

- [Joe] Thank you for having us.

- [Hawk] Appreciate you having us.

- It is so great to see you guys and hear you guys.

I was a little worried there for a second, Joe.

We had some problems with the tech, but I'm glad to see you and hear you both.

Hawk, there's a picture that we shared on social media of that day in 2014.

It was less than three weeks after Tamir Rice had been shot and killed.

And you were wearing that shirt, you were walking right by the, you know, fans.

And every single one of them has, their face is just registering sort of shock and amazement and all sorts of reactions.

Take us back to that moment and everything that led up to that.

- [Hawk] Yeah, no, I mean, it was definitely, probably the proudest moment of my life.

Not because of anything that I did, but because how scared I was to kind of come forward with that.

To your point, there wasn't, this is pre-Colin Kaepernick.

And it wasn't a lot of people using their platform for that.

And I wasn't setting out to be some pioneer, or I didn't, you know, pattern myself an activist.

At the time, I was just sad, to be honest.

I remember seeing the video of Tamir and, you know, my best friend is my son, who is now nine, was two at the time.

And all I could think about was what if that was him?

So I made the decision to wear the t-shirt that day through a bunch of turmoil and, you know, tears.

And, you know, my mom tried to convince me that, hey, I don't know if this is the right thing to do.

There's going to be consequences for you in this.

And I understood that and it scared the daylights out of me, you know.

But I felt like it was the right thing to do.

And in that photo, I do get emotional even seeing it.

Because I remember very vividly the kind of rollercoaster of emotions and thoughts that were going through my mind at the time.

You know, but ultimately I was glad I fought through and did what I did that day.

- Can you tell us a little bit more though about the decision and kind of going through it in your own mind?

I mean, that's not an easy decision.

And when your mom tells you, there're gonna be consequences, you know, it's not just one of your teammates being like, hey, what are you doing?

You know, it's like your mom.

- [Hawk] Yeah, no, exactly.

I think that was probably the scariest part.

If it was one of my teammates, I probably wouldn't have cared as much, but yeah.

I mean, if I take you all the way back, and this is the reason why it struck me so hard, Dan, was when I was a kid.

And I grew up in a predominantly black neighborhood, but I went to the area private school.

So my mom had worked double shifts.

We didn't have a lot of money, 13 people in a three bedroom house.

And she worked from sunup to sundown.

Was to work before I woke up, and was still at work by the time I went to sleep to get us what she thought was to put us in a better situation educationally, right?

So I had this juxtaposition of being the only black kid at school.

And then coming home to, again, my all black neighborhood.

And the realities between those two environments were night and day.

I mean, we were from a very small town but it literally felt like I was going into two different worlds on a daily basis.

And so when I was in school, I had a bunch of friends at school who, you know, were hunters, were from the middle of Pennsylvania, Johnstown, about 60 miles outside of Pittsburgh, and they're hunters.

And, you know, they have their own hunting guns, and their dads take them hunting when it's buck season I mean, you name it.

And all of my friends had these really cool BB guns.

And I'm about 11 or 12 years old.

And I'm like, man, I really want a BB gun besides the fact we could not afford it.

It was like, man, like I wish that, one of the many things that they would have that I didn't have access to at the time.

But I thought this was really cool.

Because it's boys being boys, they're running around, they're doing all these cool things after school that I can't participate in.

So I remember asking my mom for a BB gun and she was very clear to me you can't have a BB gun because somebody will think it is real and you may die.

And it seemed so ridiculous to me then.

And again, I'm 11 or 12, like, what are you talking about?

I know so many kids with them, you're just saying stuff.

She couldn't explain to me in ways that I could understand the difference between me and, you know, maybe the environment the kids in my school were having, right?

So I was very upset about that.

You know, that Christmas, our church handout like some dollar toys that they got from the store so that everybody had a Christmas gift.

And there was one specifically that was a dart gun.

And it was a plastic gun.

It couldn't have weighed no more than a quarter of a pound.

And it had darts in it, little orange darts, but it didn't have orange tips.

Back then you didn't need them.

So it was just a really cool.

So now I'm like, oh man, now I have this and my friends are playing.

I have something I can play with them with.

My mom seeing it, as soon as I got home, she said you need to throw it away, I'm not gonna tell you twice about it.

And I'm like, you know, this is moms being moms, ruining all the fun.

And so I kept it.

And one day she wasn't there, I was playing with it.

And I had an older brother who was about two years older than me.

And we're like peers.

It's not like a big brother little brother relationship.

We felt more like twins at the time.

And he seen me playing with it, and he kind of roughed me up a little bit and was like, didn't mom tell you to throw this away?

Are you stupid?

And that's when it kinda hit me a little heavier because I'm like, he doesn't kill fun.

So if he's telling me this, this must actually mean something.

So I got rid of the gun.

So fast forward to when I'm playing with the Browns.

And obviously at the time it was starting to bubble up, a lot of these conversations in these instances that we would hear of.

And like any situation, you believe a half of what you hear and you kind of have to well, get more information, see this.

And in these situations, it hit me like a ton of bricks because these were the first ones for me that I had seen on video.

So you could say, you know, what could have happened to this person or what may have happened and this person said that and that, but I can see this with my own two eyes.

I can see this little boy in a gazebo, messing around like 11 or 12 year old does.

And before he even knows what's going on, his life is over.

It made me incredibly sad.

I was actually on my way to practice in the locker room when I seen the video and had to go in the bathroom at the Brown's Facility and wipe my eyes because the emotion was just kind of running through me.

And we're on our way to go practice against, you know, for whatever team we're playing that week.

- You were that boy.

I mean, you hid the gun from your mom.

You would have gone off to the park and played with it but for the grace of God.

- [Hawk] Yeah, and I think that's why it struck so home for me, you know.

And it made me more sad that that same conversation my mom had that I was going to have to have it with my son as well.

And here I wasn't the platform to say, man, I hope eventually this just isn't the case.

You know, and this is, yeah.

I mean, it was a lot but that's why I felt it was my duty in that moment, Dan.

- Andrew Hawkins is a former NFL wide receiver, played for the Browns.

And he was playing for the Browns in 2014 when he wore that shirt that we're talking about, said justice for Tamir Rice.

And Joe Thomas is with us as well, former Brown's offensive tackle.

And the to host a show called the "The Tomahawk Show."

It's a podcast that you can find wherever you find your podcasts.

And we're talking about using the platform of football, using football as a platform for conversations about racial justice.

Joe Thomas, back in 2014, when Hawk wore that shirt, what did you think?

- [Joe] Well, that was one of the interesting things about the situation when Andrew wore that shirt.

Is he didn't make a big deal about it.

There wasn't a moment where he wanted the attention on himself.

He wasn't doing it for some purpose of, you know, trying to get attention and marketing dollars or anything like that.

He did it really without any conversation with the rest of the guys in the team.

And during warmups, I think after the fact we all realized what had happened but it wasn't something that we talked about.

And it really wasn't a conversation until a lot later.

And I think after Colin Kaepernick took a knee and then as the social justice movement started to accelerate, I think a lot of spotlights started to get shone back on Hawk because he was kind of one of the first NFL players that was standing up for social justice and standing up for what was right.

And I give him a lot of credit.

'Cause like he was just saying, he was doing that because he felt like he had to do it for his son, for his family, for his community.

And there was nothing deeper than that.

- Joe, recently, after the murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, you wrote an article for The Players' Tribune that we mentioned at the top where you said it's not enough to be not racist, anti-racism is something else.

Can you talk a little bit about that piece and why you wrote it?

- [Joe] Well, I felt like it was really important me being a white male that grew up in suburban Wisconsin that did not have a lot of black people in my community growing up.

And I felt like I would be a good conduit being that once you get to college football and then you play in the NFL, you're playing on a team that's predominantly filled with black players.

And I had a unique perspective, much like Hawk did, right?

Where he grew up in a community that was mostly black and he went to a school that was mostly white.

I grew up in a community that was mostly white, playing on teams that were mostly black players.

And so I was able to kind of get the perspective from both sides.

And I felt that being from the country sort of in Wisconsin, I had a voice and an opportunity to sort of educate and wake up some of the people that probably didn't want to talk about race, didn't even want to think about it.

And then maybe wouldn't listen to somebody like Andrew because they would just write it off as, oh, he's one of the black guys on the football team.

Like if they hear it from the white guy that grew up in suburban Wisconsin, like maybe that would get them to empathize and to understand that this is not just a black problem, this is an America problem.

- I've just gotten a text message from somebody who's watching online.

And if you're not watching online, you should just tune in 'cause you got to check out Hawk's shirt.

His jacket is amazing.

But I understand that folks are having some trouble hearing Joe Thomas.

He seems to be (mumbles) And so if you want to just turn on your radio 90.3 WCPN you'll be able to listen in.

You can also tell your smart speaker to play NPR and all sorts of other stuff like that.

You're with The City Club Friday Forum.

By the way, I'm Dan Moulthrop.

If you want to get in on our conversation with Joe Thomas and Andrew Hawkins, text your question to 330-541-5794 or tweet it @TheCityClub and we will work it into the program.

Joe (mumbles) Well, actually Hawk, let me ask you.

When Joe wrote that piece about being an anti-racist, I mean, this is a distinction that has kind of emerged in the last four, five, six years.

Many have seen the distinction very clearly but others have woken up to it.

What did you think?

- [Hawk] I mean, I was incredibly proud just because I know the kind of guy Joe is.

So it wasn't a surprise to me, you know?

And so I think that for a lot of people, I mean that is what it takes, you know, and that takes courage the same way mine takes courage.

To your point, I mean, it's Joe's reality.

And the neighborhood he comes from is much different than mine and my reality, right?

And I think if all of us can be empathetic that way and see things from others' perspectives and understand the ultimate motives and understand everybody lives in a different America, that is just a reality, then I think we could all be in a better spot.

So when Joe did that, I was incredibly proud.

I mean, my phone was blowing up as if I was the one who wrote the article because I think so many people around me see Joe and think of me and sometimes vice versa with Joe.

- Joe, what kind of reaction did you get?

- [Joe] You get a mixed reaction.

Anytime you talk about race, you're going to have people on both sides that don't want to hear about it, right?

Because it's been this taboo topic in our country for hundreds of years.

And that's kind of, in my opinion what's led us to the situation we're in right now because nobody wants to talk about race.

Everybody is so afraid of the issue of bringing it up in conversation because they're afraid of saying the wrong things a lot of times.

Especially white people, they're really afraid of being labeled a racist, right?

Because it's like the one thing in this world that's worse than being a murderer or a rapist.

It's like, you're a racist.

And you know, part of it is the cancel culture that we live in.

Like if you say something out of a place of ignorance, you're afraid that you're going to be labeled a certain way.

And that even though you're trying to better understand something and gain empathy and gain perspective, you're concerned about how it's viewed.

And so in your mind you just would rather not talk about it, not think about it.

And that's kind of the distinction that I talk about in that article that I wrote.

The difference between being anti-racist and being not racist.

Not racist means you just avoid it altogether but that doesn't make anything better.

That a lot of times makes it worse because then you're not bringing these ideas that build bias in our own minds, that a lot of times it's subconscious, that build racism in our minds subconsciously.

That allows it to fester and grow when you don't talk about it, when it becomes this taboo topic that lives in a dark corner.

And then we tend to sort of only associate ourselves with people that think exactly like us because then we don't ever have to have that uncomfortable conversation.

And I think it was really important for me to sort of at the very beginning, say, let's have these conversations.

Let's not be afraid of not understanding.

Let's not be afraid of asking questions, of coming off as ignorant because that's how we grow in our minds and that's how we gain perspective and empathy, and we better understand the issues - You know, the two of you have this friendship.

And in the vernacular of the moment when we talk about anti-racist work and we talk about social justice and racial justice, Hawk, you know, we would talk about Joe as an ally, right?

And so what is it exactly?

Because it seems like your relationship, your friendship is solid.

You guys are partners in content production, you are partners on the field, you support one another in ways that, I think there are a lot of people who would like to have sort of a cross-racial friendship like that, but they don't know how.

What is it that Joe does for you that makes you feel supported?

- [Hawk] Yeah, I think it's just being yourself and being able to see each other for who they are.

And I think that's the beautiful part about football to Joe's point.

We're in these locker rooms but we all have a common goal.

We come from different walks of life.

You know, me and Joe, do we agree on everything?

Absolutely not.

But here's the reality.

When we played football, I think that kind of showed us we were a lot more like each other than we were different.

We were two guys that came in and worked every single day, as hard as we could no matter the situation.

Now, am I a six seven, a first round draft pick first ballot Hall of Famer?

No.

But the thing that has made us common place is that Joe would look at me and say, man, I know what kind of effort Hawk is going to give.

I know that he has pride.

I know that he cares about what he's doing, and I'm that same way.

I think it started there.

From there it started to have conversations and we come to find out, man, we're both family guys.

We love our family.

We want to do things this way.

We take things very seriously.

We have pride in it, but we also like to have fun.

And I mean, when you have that kind of baseline of a true friendship, that where we know who we are, we know what our intentions are, then it creates the opportunity to talk about anything, right?

And I think that's where it started.

We have deep conversations about absolutely anything you could imagine.

And it's just grown from there.

- [Dan] Joe Thomas.

- [Joe] Yeah, for me, the bond between me and Hawk it started on the football field, in the locker room.

And it was my respect for how he goes about his business.

There's this saying about being a professional.

Like every coach in the NFL and I've had plenty of them 'cause I had a stinky career with a lot of coaches getting fired, thanks to me.

And the conversation is always we want professionals, right?

What does that mean?

That means you go about your business like it's your job.

You take it seriously, you work hard.

And that's who Hawk was.

And initially when he came into the locker room I thought he was a jerk because he's kind of to himself.

He didn't really mix and mingle with a lot of guys.

He was coming from the Hayden Cincinnati Bengals.

So it was easy to look at Hawk from my perspective big white, offensive lineman from suburban Wisconsin.

Here's this short black receiver from the Cincinnati Bengals, and to think like we have nothing in common but that common bridge.

That first thing that brought us together was like, hey, we're the old heads in the locker room.

We like to be serious on the football field.

We take this serious because we're providing for our family.

And my respect for how he went about his business, that really opened up the dialogue between the two of us.

And then all of a sudden as you peel back the onion you find out, man, I have so much more in common with this guy than initially I thought just looking at the surface.

And I think one thing that I respect about Hawk that I hope I also embrace the same quality is the fact that I'm not afraid to talk to him and to be myself.

And if I sound ignorant or maybe we disagree on something, that's not going to make Hawk not like me.

He might tell me what he thinks about it but that's what I respect about him.

He honestly tells me what he thinks.

I honestly tell him what I think and if we don't agree on it, that's okay.

We don't have to agree on everything.

And one of the things that I don't like about our society right now is how we so often want to spend our time and spend our free time in our schools and our activities with people that just think like us, and we're afraid of mingling and mixing and talking with people that don't think like us because there is a little bit of the sense of, well, if you don't think like me, and if you don't agree on everything with me, then I don't like you as a person.

Like we need to break that off right there.

We need to cut that and say, just because I might not agree with you on something doesn't mean I can't like you as a person because I think your core values are fantastic.

- Joe Thomas is a former member of the Browns offensive line.

Andrew Hawkins, former wide receiver for the Browns.

And we're talking with them today at your City Club Friday Forum about using football as a forum for the really important conversations.

Perhaps the most important conversations that we can have among each other and as a community.

Hawk, what do you think about the, you know, when people say just, you know, stop getting into politics just stay focused on football, you have no business, like spouting off about this stuff?

I mean, I've obviously got my own opinions about it but what do you think?

- [Hawk] Well, it's like Tupac because I never viewed like what I was talking about as politics.

You know, I viewed it as just a human thing, right?

Like, you know, and obviously it does delve into politics when you're talking about policy and things like that.

But at the same time, it's just like, I just very baseline just want my son to be able to go through life like everybody else.

You know, that's ultimately my goal.

So I never viewed it as that at the beginning.

And then once it started to really get there, right.

Once I started to be a guy that, and whose name was thrust into that conversation because of how I viewed and that I didn't mince my words about certain things, you know, I mean, it just seemed ridiculous to me, to be honest.

Like everybody should have a say so in what life is.

Like it should be our responsibility to do so, right?

Me and Joe 100 years from now, no one's going to care about Joe Thomas, as much as I love him.

No, one's going to care about Andrew Hawkins 100 years from now, but I'm hoping by then it'll be our grandkids or great grandkids live in a better place that, they can look back and say, hey, my great-granddad Joe or my great-granddad Hawk, you know, they did what they could in the moment and used their voice to make things better for us.

And I think that's our responsibility.

And whether you play professional football or you work a nine to five, I think we should all take on that responsibility.

- [Joe] That's another commonality between me and Hawk.

The reason we're sitting in the seats we're sitting on right now talking to you Dan is because we care about our children and the world that they're going to inherit and what is it going to look like And I know that both of our motivation, that when we talk about this topic is to try to make this world a more fair and equitable place for my kids and for my grandkids.

And I know Hawk is exactly the same way.

- That's the work isn't it?

To repair the world and to create a more equitable place.

Joe, when (mumbles) I'm sure you both must've heard it from Brown's fans, who would say that structural racism isn't real.

That, you know, I'm not a racist, racism.

Like we had a black president so we're in a post-racial society.

That was part of the conversation in 2014.

Today it's really different and there's a lot more understanding of the depth of our history and the worst parts of our history.

But Joe, how did you respond to fans when they were claiming, or, you know, when you wrote your piece last summer.

Like how did you respond to people who responded negatively to that?

- [Joe] Well, if they wanted to bring up a different perspective, you know, based in their view on things and maybe some substantive beliefs, I'll be happy to debate them.

Like, I think some parts of Twitter you can actually get into some good debates.

And I always try to keep any debates that I have on social media, which I'm only a Twitter guy.

I'm not smart enough like Hawk is to be able to have Instagram, Twitter, Snapchat, and all these other things.

But if somebody actually wanted to engage and had opened their mind to the possibility that maybe they don't know everything about racism in this country.

Like if you're willing to open your mind and hear another perspective, I love to engage.

And I enjoy that.

But if you're on there just trying to be a troll that is maybe having something, they don't like what I'm saying but they can't tell me why they don't like it, then I'm just going to ignore you.

Because you've already told me by your reaction that you're not willing to change your mind.

And I think, you know, we're talking about what's wrong with society and stuff and you hate to put it that way.

'Cause there's a lot that's right with society and our country.

But specifically talking about structural racism and our culture of we're afraid to admit when we're wrong or that we don't know everything.

And we're especially afraid to change our mind.

If you think about politics, like changing your mind is the ultimate death blow if you're running for public office.

You're considered a flip-flopper and it's considered weak.

When I think about changing your mind on a topic, I think it's a great sign of awesome leadership and strength and moral courage to be able to say, look what I thought I knew, I was wrong about it because I didn't have all the information.

So the willingness to see things from a different perspective, to have empathy and to understand and admit that maybe I was wrong about something, I think that's really powerful.

And I think that would really move our country forward if we embraced that culture a little bit more about, hey, I'm willing to change my mind if I find new information.

And that's one of the things I wanted to do when I wrote that article.

And one of the things that hopefully we're doing today is, we're talking to people that maybe don't have our perspective on everything, but they're open-minded about hearing it from maybe somebody else who lived a different life than you did growing up.

- [Hawk] And I want to also piggyback off that and say, you know, for Joe and myself, that was the thing that I respected most about Joe.

Was that in this conversation, in this topic and all that, it wasn't, hey Hawk, teach me everything about racism.

No, it was, Joe went out, found the information, read up on it, reading it, understanding it.

And then we would have these conversations based on that information, but it was him going to gain more information and understanding about it.

And I think that is the thing.

While we all want to make things better If everybody did that, if everybody went out and understood and went out to find more information to make themselves smarter on a topic such as this, that is the thing that would actually progress everything and make it better.

- [Joe] So I know the millions of people that are out there listening right now to us.

- [Dan] Millions Joe, millions.

- [Joe] Maybe billions.

I might be short-selling us here a little bit but I'm sure they're thinking like, hey Joe, it's great that you are in a locker room that was primarily black, that you had a lot of friends that were black players.

That if you had a question, they were more than willing to talk to you, right?

With my status on the team, with my relationship with Hawk and some of the other guys.

Like it's easy for me to go to Hawk and say, hey, tell me more about this.

Although I did do a lot of my own reading, there's certain things that you can't read about or listen to on a podcast and understand the black experience in this country and to fully understand that perspective.

And it really helps to be able to have somebody in your life that can answer those questions for you.

But I also understand I've heard the perspective from black people saying that, hey, we don't want to have to constantly answer these questions for all of our white friends.

Like I can't wear that hat all the time, it's exhausting.

And I was interested to hear Hawk's perspective on that because I know he's been such a great ally and such a great person for me that I could bounce questions off of and have that safe space of conversation.

But what do you say to the people like that are out there that might, out of the million people listening that might not be in an NFL locker room, that might not have friends like you and I?

- [Hawk] Yeah, I feel like Google is everybody's friend.

Everybody can research and make themselves smarter.

That's a good starting point, right?

The people that work for me, my thing is always when I have an employee and they're like hey, do this and I'm like, did you do everything you could to find the information out before you came to me?

If you did, I'm completely okay, let's talk about it.

If there's something you can't find in there, let me show you the way.

If you didn't start that process, that tells me you might not really want to know what's going on.

You want the cliff notes and I can't give cliff notes, right?

So I think that's the distinction.

And I understand people who do have that perspective that, you know, everybody doesn't want to be a African-American history's professor and, you know, give a syllabus and homework.

You know, for me, I like helping people no matter what.

I like giving the information that I have no matter what if it helps somebody, again, further what they're doing in any respect.

So I'm a little different in that.

Now, don't come tweet me asking me everything about racism in this country.

But at the time, I get all perspectives of it.

But again, it starts with having the motivation to go out and get the information for yourself.

'Cause if you really want to know, you'll do everything you can to start that process before relying on somebody else to be that source.

- Well, if you want to get recommendations from Hawk on Twitter, just tweet @Hawk and he'll respond.

He's promised to respond to everybody who tweets at him.

Joe Thomas is @JoeThomas73, and they're our guests today for The City Club Friday Forum.

We're talking about using football as a forum for tackling tough issues.

And I said tackling there, and I did not mean to do the pun.

I'm a dad, it comes naturally without me thinking.

- [Joe] I love dad jokes.

- If you want to join our conversation, if you have questions for Joe Thomas and Hawk, give us a text to 330-541-5794.

That's 330-541-5794.

Or tweet your question @TheCityClub and we will work them into the program.

I want to mention too, that if you're looking for resources for anti-racist resources or how to get started, where to begin thinking, and you're not on Twitter so you can't ask Hawk directly, check out ThirdSpace Action Lab.

They're a local organization that organizes training and you can start with a three-hour workshop that they manage with the Racial Equity Institute.

And it's called Groundwater training.

And there's a whole big metaphor about the Groundwater that I'm not going to go into right now, but I'd encourage you to check it out.

ThirdSpace Action Lab is also, you can find them on Google.

So here's a question for both of you.

What were your first experiences with racism in your life that kind of affected you Hawk?

- [Hawk] Oh, that's a good question.

To be honest, and this is going to sound cliche and terrible.

There's probably too many to recall.

I don't remember what the first one was, to be honest.

And again, you know, some of that comes from ignorance, some of it comes from, you know, whatever, but the environment that I grew up in, again being the only black kid in class, for the majority of my life up until I got to college.

You know, but being in a black community, it was different.

I'm from a part of Pennsylvania where it's not a big metropolitan area that is super super diverse.

So, you know, if you give me a certain situation I could probably give you an instance where that occurred to me from top to bottom.

- English class, supermarket, library, whatever.

- [Hawk] Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely.

Again, I can recall probably one plus from every single age up into now.

Like up until recently as a 35 year old, there's never been a time where it's not it.

I think that's the other part that I think isn't talked about a lot in the sense of it's an exhausting conversation.

It's an exhausting topic, right?

So for people that are exhausted by it and don't want to hear about it, I want you to know everybody feels that way.

Every black person also feels as exhausted by it and doesn't want to talk.

Like I hate it.

You know what I mean?

It's a reality, but it really feels like a responsibility because I don't want everybody to be exhausted by it forever.

There's not a day that goes by, there's not a room that I go into where I don't have to consider what race I am.

There's not a situation.

It doesn't matter.

If I'm driving from Cleveland to Tampa, where I work out in the off season, I add three hours to my route so I don't go through certain areas that I had to go research and learn about because I have my family with me, and who knows?

So that kind of stuff it's something that is considered in every single day life.

And that's as exhausting as you could imagine.

And honestly, who wants to spend their entire life working for their dream of playing in the NFL?

I'm five, seven.

"Rudy" was my favorite movie growing up.

I wanted to beat the odds.

Like in what world would it make sense for me to accomplish my dream and want to have to talk about racism the whole time?

I want to have to be an activist.

I would much rather have just been an NFL football player, enjoyed that life, not cared about anything but that responsibility is there.

- [Dan] Joe Thomas - [Joe] It's interesting we talked earlier about the difference between anti-racism and not racist.

And I would say, growing up, I was not racist, right?

Anytime race was talked about or thought about, I just didn't want to be a part of it.

So I didn't allow my mind to see the racism around.

And it really wasn't until I was in the NFL that we were having a really nice open conversation in our locker room and one of my teammates stood up and was talking about his experiences as a black man in the NFL, as a black man in America.

And he gave this example about how he was walking through the grocery store, and he lives in suburban Cleveland, and people would be constantly giving him looks, security guards would be following him.

And it was like those small instances of racism that are happening on a daily basis to him that are exhausting, that wear him out, that make him feel like he's less than somebody else.

And it makes the space where everybody should be welcome in the grocery store in suburban Cleveland but had made him feel uncomfortable because it made him get the idea that this was a white space and that everybody around him was uncomfortable with his presence because he was a black man with dreadlocks.

And when I heard him say that, I thought back in my life and I thought about how he must have felt having everybody kind of look at him and not feel like he was welcome.

And I thought back when I was in middle school, I played on a basketball team for AAU in The City of Milwaukee, and I was one of two white players.

And I remember the first day going there to practice and everybody was black around me.

And it was the first time I noticed race.

And I thought about it like, wow, this makes feel uncomfortable because I'm not like those kids.

And we don't share the same culture, we don't grow up in the same cities, we don't use a lot of the same words.

And at the time, I didn't realize it or recognize it, that uncomfortable feeling.

And then when my teammate brought it up, I realized that if that's your experience every single day when you try to go out into most of America like how that can affect the way you feel and how that can affect your actions on a daily basis.

And that was really, I think the first time when like subconscious bias and the racism.

You know some people tall call it like micro racism or microaggression, but it's just racism.

It's people not even realizing there's subconscious bias towards somebody that looks a certain way.

- Just to connect a few dots, living with that kind of stress is the main reason, you know, we've heard that the CDC just yesterday declared racism a public health issue.

And living with that kind of stress is the sort of thing that just builds up in your system and creates like adverse health outcomes.

That's basically how that works.

Another question for both of you, and this gets to maybe some of the consequences that you alluded to earlier, Hawk, maybe not.

But what do you think, what role should the NFL play in racial equity work?

They're doing stuff now, what are they doing now?

What else would you like to see and how has that changed over time?

Because I'm sure in 2014, you know, you were wearing that shirt and then nothing happened, right?

In terms of the NFL's response really.

And then Kaepernick takes a knee and he can't get hired.

I mean, talk about it.

There's a whole bunch of stuff there.

- [Hawk] Yeah, no, absolutely.

I think the NFL's role should be to support their talent.

And understand, again, the realities of the communities they come from.

And, you know, most times the same thing that makes someone a good NFL football player and a teammate are the same reasons why they have that mentality that, hey, we're in this together, right?

And that's the beautiful part of a team.

I can have great stats myself but if the team doesn't win, that's never the goal.

Like we come in there, Joe was an incredible teammate.

I like to think I was a good teammate.

Is because I didn't want to be the guy who only did well And no one else on my team did well.

Like it's a team sport.

And a lot of the players in the NFL come from communities that yes, they are making a lot of money, they have notoriety, but who can enjoy success if your cousin and your friends and the people that are so connected to you and help get you to where you are are still in this situation?

So yes, there's that responsibility.

So I think for the NFL, supporting players in that way and doing what they can to use their voice for some of these same topics and situations.

And I should say, I'd be remissed if I didn't.

That in 2014, I wore my t-shirt.

I didn't tell my teammates.

I didn't tell my coaches.

I didn't tell the organization because I felt like this was a platform that I earned.

I went through hell and back to get to this point in my life.

And this was my responsibility but it was also my choice in doing so.

And I'm sure that blindsided the organization of the Cleveland Browns.

I know it did, right?

And I mean, I remember my backlash and they shared in a lot of that backlash too.

And in that moment, and we didn't have a playbook for it.

There was no Colin Kaepernick at the time, there wasn't seven years of social justice and fighting.

The organization backed me up.

They didn't throw me out to dry, like I've seen others do.

And also I remember having a specific conversation with Jimmy and Dee Haslam and you know, we didn't go into deeply of like, hey, are you with me on this or not?

But it was, they supported me in, hey, you handled that incredibly, you used your voice responsibly.

They supported me in every way and I did not expect that.

I'm going to be completely honest and transparent on the show, which is a reason why I didn't bring it up.

And they supported me from day one in that.

And yeah, again, I owe them a lot because there was no playbook for that.

They could have very easily since they were the first to go through it, right?

They could've very easily handled that wrong.

And them and the organization and the people and the executives at the Cleveland Browns have supported me then, and even up to this day still support me the same way like they did from day one.

- Joe Thomas, what else would you like to see the NFL do?

- [Joe] That's a hard question 'cause I think they've made huge strides.

But the biggest thing, and I think we're seeing that as you just heard from Hawk is that the owners are some of the richest, most powerful people in our entire country.

The ownership in the NFL, I think the average NFL team is probably worth over $2 billion.

So these people have power and influence.

And I think for them to support the platform that their players have to make substantive change positively in the communities that those teams exist, I think is a huge first step.

And I think we're seeing that by and large from a lot of teams.

And I hope that continues because there's kind of two ways to change, right?

Like you can change hearts and minds by changing culture and changing the way people think about issues.

But then there's also legislative, and that can be something that can be a little bit more difficult.

But the people that have the power to make those legislative changes are the ones that are connected.

And those are the rich dudes that own NFL franchises because (indistinct) - Not just the rich dudes who used to be NFL players?

- [Joe] Yeah, those too but the really rich dudes that own NFL franchises that donate to a lot of political campaigns.

They have access to politicians that they can be influential when the players come to them and say, we have a really good idea.

We need your support because we need to be able to talk to this person or that person to get something done.

To allow for an open door policy, I think will be a really powerful thing to make change.

But also from a selfish standpoint, if you're an owner, like what better way to get along and to be able to connect with your players and your coaches, to be able to work together on an issue that's really important to both of you?

- You know, I want to mention while we're in the middle of the conversation here, just that this is part of a series of programs that we're doing in conjunction with The Greater Cleveland Sports Commission with the draft that's about to take place and also in partnership with Key bank.

And there's a power sports summit that's coming up that's a part of that whole velocity thing that is a free community event focused on sports as a catalyst for change, which is something we've been talking about here.

We've been talking about it previously here at The City Club Friday Forum.

And if you're interested, there's more info @cleportsummit.org.

So dub-dub-dub clesportssummit.org If you're interested in that.

And we really appreciate the partnership of The Greater Cleveland Sports Commission and helping to bring all of this together.

Hawk, a question for you, have you talked to or worked with Tamir Rice's mother?

- [Hawk] I have not had the opportunity to connect with Tamir Rice.

And it's funny because after I wore the t-shirt I had a bunch of requests to go on every single show you can imagine from the biggest networks to magazine, cover shoots.

I was very cognizant going through that, of making sure that it didn't come off as if I was using this as some marketing tool or brand building thing.

And I'm still very conscious of that.

And I like to keep everything I do kind of behind closed doors.

But in those requests, but I was also saying, hey, I'll consider it if you first talk with Tamir's mother.

Bring her on first, give her the platform because she could talk about this 100 times better than I can because she's actually going through it.

And, you know, most times it would result not getting a call back.

So we haven't been able to connect.

We'd love to connect with Tamir Rice for a plethora of reasons.

- If you are just joining us, or if you have a question for Hawk or Joe Thomas about the way they've used football as a platform for advancing conversations around racial justice, text us at 330-541-5794.

That number again is 330-541-5794.

Or if you're on Twitter, you can tweet it @TheCityClub.

We'll work it into the program.

I'm Dan Moulthrop.

This is The City Club Friday Forum.

You talked about legislation, Joe a few minutes ago.

Legislation and policy solutions.

And I want to invite both of you to answer the question, what are the legislative and policy solutions you'd like to see?

Is it time for reparations?

There's a really different conversation happening right now.

Joe, you first.

- [Joe] Well, it's a pretty big question.

I can say that I am definitely not a politician but I have listened to a lot of podcasts and tried to read as much up as I possibly can.

And I think what I'm excited about is just having the conversation.

Let's let truth rise to the top.

Let's sift and winnow and find the best way to move this country forward.

And the only way we can do that is by having those conversations.

And so I'm not sure unless you specifically had some thoughts that I would be able to just wax poetically about exactly what reparations could possibly do.

I will say there's a great podcast that dives into it on "Freakonomics."

If anybody is interested in hearing like just a good conversation around it, that would be a great first place to start.

But that's one of those topics where I think you see the difference between non-racist and anti-racist.

Like a non-racist person just doesn't even want to talk about it.

An anti-racist says, I may be against it but I'm interested in learning as much as I possibly can about it to find the right solution, and maybe this is the right answer.

- [Dan] Hawk.

- [Hawk] That's a good question.

And I think this ventures into the politics side of things, right?

I don't want to sit up here and act like I'm a politician in any way, shape or form and can give you each legislative move that would move us forward from a racial equity standpoint because there are a lot.

There's schooling, there's housing.

I mean, the list goes on and on.

Like in every facet, you could find the thing that comes from a systemic world where these laws and legislations were inactive when black people were not considered.

So because of that, that thing has grown over hundreds of years, and it still acts as the same way.

Even my small town, all the black people live in one areas of town.

That's from red lining and not being able to get housing loans, right?

And that creates generational poverty.

My grandparents were sharecroppers, right?

So there is a direct line of poverty from slavery up into my generation through certain lines of Georgia sharecroppers whose parents were born slaves.

So that systemic connection to something you know, there's that in every facet from how black people are sentenced to the criminality of marijuana in certain places.

And, you know, so I could sit here all day and name just all the top line things that I know of from experience, but I can't sit here and say, hey, change this law, change that because it's not my place to do so.

I haven't done that deep of the research yet and I don't want to speak out of turn.

And I would encourage everybody to do the research before you go and put yourself in those situations.

But at the same time, as we look into it, as we look up over across a bunch of things, raising those awareness and having those conversations are important about what my experience is, what my family's experience is.

Because I think it contextualizes everything and could put us towards a better progressive legislative state.

- Joe.

(mumbles) - [Joe] I was, and you know, Hawk did such a great job just commanding the issue there, I think.

You know, the big thing for me is like, it kind of goes back to the article I wrote like what's the first step?

Like, educate yourself, be willing to talk, be willing to listen to a podcast or read a book and challenge your own preconceived notions because empathy can go a really long way.

If you think about, like in America we love the bootstrap mentality and Hawk was talking briefly about this, and that's great.

Like we love the story of the person that came from nothing, of the person that came from abject poverty and was able to raise themselves up.

But imagine how much more difficult it is for somebody that grew up in an all-black poor neighborhood like Andrew grew up in to be able to raise themselves up by their own bootstraps into a society that is primarily a white society that's run by people that are white, that have power.

Like we talk about being uncomfortable and being in those uncomfortable moments, like it's a lot harder.

And if you're a listener and you're a white person and you've never thought about it like this, just imagine if the roles were reversed.

If you were a poor white person growing up in a poor white neighborhood.

And in order to be able to pull yourself up by your bootstraps, you had to leave your culture, and leave what was comfortable and go and work in an America that was run primarily by all black people.

Like, would you feel totally comfortable or would you feel a little bit awkward, especially at first, Especially trying to get out there when people would hit you with racism, like Hawk was talking about, when you would feel that on a daily basis?

And it might not always be, you know, the person wearing the white hood burning the cross, like that's racism.

but racism also is noticing the person that doesn't look like you or looks a certain way that you think they look a little suspicious and I'm just going to walk behind him in the grocery store or I'm just going to kind of pay attention.

No, I better call the police.

Like if you feel that on a daily basis and that makes you uncomfortable, imagine how much harder it is to reach success for that person.

So just think about it like that and think about how that would change your life and how you act on a daily basis Having to think about race because it matters to black people.

White people can be non-racist, black people can't because they're hit with it in their face every single day.

- Joe Thomas, you talked about like doing the research and reading, listening to a podcast, that kind of thing.

Give a couple of recommendations, specific things to read.

What's the thing that you read that was either the first thing you read or the thing that sticks with you that you keep coming back to in your head?

- [Joe] You know, there's a lot of great ones.

One book that I read was, "How To Be An Anti-racist."

And it had a lot of amazing points.

Like just like with me and Hawk, I don't agree with everything that's in there but it just makes you think and it gives you a different perspective.

And I think from there, you can kind of branch out and then like Hawk said, Google is a great thing.

Like if you have a question or if listening to the book on tape, which I love to do because I don't read quite as well as a guy from Columbia that got a 4.0 like Hawk.

Like it'll bring up topics and things in your head.

You'd be like, wait, wait, I didn't know that, that's not right.

And then dive into it a little bit deeper.

Just kind of let your mind wander.

Because I think at the end, no matter if you agree with everything or you agree with nothing, you'll know that you're a better, more educated person about the issue, and that you're not as afraid to talk about it amongst your friends.

'Cause I think that's the big thing.

Like right now, if you are afraid to talk about race in this country, if you're afraid to talk about social justice, it's probably because you're either afraid or you don't understand or maybe a combination of the two.

So eliminate that and then you could feel much more comfortable in those situations.

And then maybe all of a sudden you'll find yourself and you have a lot of friends that don't look like you necessarily, whereas before, maybe most of your friends they kind of look like you and all of a sudden you're saying, you know what?

My life is a lot more interesting now.

- That book "How To Be An Anti-racist is by Abraham X Kendi, by the way, just for our listeners.

Hawk, you got any recommendations?

- [Hawk] No, I do not.

- [Dan] I doubt it.

- [Joe] Talk to me about it on Twitter.

- [Hawk] Yeah, just tweet me.

I'll give you all the information.

I have a wealth of experience through everyday life.

I will say, and I know we're running short on time here, that through this whole thing, that understanding and letting people be who they are is important and understanding different points of view.

And I think that's where kind of me and Joe's lasting friendship come from.

'Cause he could be himself, I could be myself and that's okay.

That's a situation where I know it's okay.

And that is not the reality of my everyday life.

I remember graduating from the university of Toledo, with my undergrad, going on probably 50 job interviews and never getting a job, right?

Does that mean I'm not smart?

Does that mean I couldn't do it?

And I eventually I went on and I have a great jobs offers now and went to Columbia and got a 4.0 and things that had to beef up my resume.

But I had to do all that as a baseline just to get my foot in the door.

And do I think that it was racially motivated that I couldn't get a job or you know, that I'm in a situation?

No, I don't think it's conscious all the time.

But if the default is I'm looking for somebody who looks like me, if the default is I'm looking for somebody who speaks like me, who only has my perspective, then that is the racism that Joe was talking about.

Because how will somebody else ever get a job?

How would that diversity of thought not ring through and allow people to be themselves and create the opportunities whether economically, whether in housing, whether in education, to be able to be themselves.

And I think these conversations and crossing those lines like Joe and I have, and continuing to, you know, help each other grow and seeing ourselves just for who we are.

It's okay to see color because that means you're also acknowledging the experience that comes along with that and saying, oh, okay, I understand this now.

I understand why you this way, Hawk.

I understand why you think this Hawk now because I know where you come from and who you are.

So I think that's the most important thing.

- [Joe] Yeah, and real quick.

If you believe that all people are created equal, like it says sort of by our founding fathers and then you look at the situation in America where way more black people are in poverty than white people then you need to ask yourself why is that?

And I think doing some of that homework and researching, like, how did we get to this place can be really powerful because a lot of people don't understand the policies that were in place even after slavery has kind of put us in the situation we're in right now where you have these neighborhoods that are super poor that are mostly, or all black that are like impossible for people that grew up in those neighborhoods to get out of them.

So doing that research.

If you believe in your head all men are created equal, then you got to ask yourself why are we not seeing an equal distribution of power and of resources throughout our country?

- That is a perfect question to end on.

Joe Thomas and Andrew Hawkins, former Browns players, currently NFL analysts.

They've also got a great podcast called "The Tomahawk Show."

It is great to see you guys.

Thank you so much for being a part of this conversation today, for teaching us so much.

- [Joe] Thanks for having us on.

- [Hawk] Dan, thank you for having us.

- All right, our forum today is, The Rajanee and Ashok Shendure Endowed Forum.

The Shendures have been a valuable part of The Greater Cleveland Business and Civic Community for the last three decades, dedicating much of their time to promoting social and economic equity and civic empowerment.

We are grateful to their family.

Special thanks as well to KeyBank and The Greater Cleveland Sports Commission who helped us organize our forum today.

We're grateful for their engagement.

And thanks too to the members and sponsors and donors and others who support our mission to create conversations of consequence that help democracy thrive.

We have two such conversations coming up next week on Tuesday.

We'll discuss with two filmmakers their recent documentary film, which highlights the humanitarian crisis in Venezuela and its implications for everyday Venezuelans and global citizens.

That's part of our partnership with the Cleveland International Film Festival.

And next Friday, we talk with Professor Paula Giddings about the political tradition of African-American women, their struggle to be enfranchised and how activism led to the influence that black women have on today's electorate.

You can find out more at our website cityclub.org.

You can check out our archives there.

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Thank you so much for being a part of our forum today, ladies and gentlemen.

Be sure to get vaccinated.

Our forum is now adjourned.

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