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(energetic music) (bell rings) - Hello and welcome to The City Club of Cleveland, where we are devoted to conversations of consequence that help democracy thrive.

It's Friday, August 5th, and I'm Dan Moulthrop, chief executive here and a proud member.

Our forum today is the second in our building success series where we hear stories from those who have successfully navigated the obstacles faced by Black and Brown business owners.

It goes without saying that the last few years were some of the toughest to start and maintain a new business.

The COVID-19 pandemic, supply chain struggles, and the contracting of the global economy are all playing a part.

But for Black and Brown entrepreneurs, finding success in their startups has its own unique set of systemic and structural challenges around investors, developers, access to opportunity, and more.

And those are challenges that have been present for decades, even longer.

In April, we spoke with two Black business leaders, Ariane Kirkpatrick and Warren Anderson, who have found success in their careers and now lead successful multi-million dollar enterprises.

Today, we hear from local entrepreneurs who are in the midst of their startups and what they believe it will take for more equitable future, for future Black and Brown entrepreneurs.

Joining us on stage today for this conversation are Luis Cartagena.

He's president and CEO at Cartagena CPA & Consultants, LLC, Chardonnay Graham, owner of Touch Cleveland LLC, and Erica Malone, co-owner of 2Brown Girls Management and owner of Jaxon's Closet, which has a storefront at Tower City Center.

Moderating our conversation today is Danielle Sydnor.

She's president of the NAACP Cleveland chapter and founder and CEO at We Win Strategies Group.

If you have questions for our panelists, you can text them to 330-541-5794.

The number again for our radio audience is 330-541-5794.

You can also tweet your question at thecityclub and our staff will work it into the second half of the program.

Members and friends of The City Club of Cleveland, please join me in welcoming our esteemed panelists today.

(attendees clapping) (panelists laughing) - All right.

Good afternoon, everybody.

We're excited to be here.

This is my first time moderating in person at The City Club.

Dan reminded me while we were in the room in the back that I had a chance to moderate while we were all locked in the house during COVID, but we still found a way to have real talk and we're gonna do the same thing today.

So, again, my name is Danielle Sydnor.

I'm delighted to be here with my esteemed panelist.

Our desire today is to have a real conversation about what it means to be an entrepreneur as a member of the Black community, Latinx community, and to really try and share some insights that you can all take away as you are supporting more businesses in the community.

We know we have a lot of bankers in the room.

We have folks listening all across the state.

We know that we'll have folks that are gonna stand up and ask questions and then also text in, but I have a couple questions prepared for the panelist.

And while we are talking, I hope that you all are listening and come up with your own conversations.

So, Luis, I'm gonna start with you, 'cause you just happened - Oh.

- to be right next to me.

- Okay.

(Chardonnay chuckles) - So, talk to us a little bit briefly though, and so can we get through a lot of information.

- Okay.

- Talk to us a little bit about your journey, your why to becoming an entrepreneur.

- Just to start off, buenos dias, buenas tardes.

(Danielle laughing) My journey has been unique.

I'm a late bloomer, so I spent my 20s completely enthralled in trying to turn a $5 into $10.

Anything you could think of, that's what I was doing.

And then, in my 30s, I went back to school.

And when I went back to school, I always knew that it wasn't for me to just get a job and try to climb the corporate ladder.

For me, it was always about going back out there and giving it another shot with the drive I already knew I had, but the actual education or background now to match my drive.

And so, now, I'm in my 40s and I'm five years into having my own CPA firm.

And it's been a very unique challenge, because I didn't work at a Big Four CPA firm before I started my own, but I volunteered through so many different nonprofits, small businesses, and different initiatives that I made sure that I engulfed and found the experiences I needed to not only be able to talk to you about a profit and loss statement and balance sheet, but then taxes, and be able to bring the education and the knowledge that I was able to obtain back to my community that needed that information so importantly.

- Good, I got like five follow up questions, but I'm gonna come back (Luis laughing) to that.

(attendees laughing) Char.

So, Chardonnay, I'm sorry.

Tell us a little bit about your journey into entrepreneurship.

- So, like Luis, mine was unique as well.

I've been very vocal with my story about how I had no intentions on being an entrepreneur.

It was not a part of the plan.

I wanted a nice cushy job that paid good benefits like everyone else, but Chardonnay was not getting hired.

And I was advised by my mentors to shorten my name to Char.

At first, I thought that like, no, this can't be the reason why I'm not getting a job.

And sure enough, once I shortened it to Char, I started getting more interviews.

Finally landed a job, thought that was my dream job, and I got let go from that job at day 52 with no real explanation.

I guess, Chardonnay showed up.

And so, after that, (attendees laughing) (Chardonnay chuckles) after that, I put Chardonnay from East Cleveland back on my resume, and I said, hey, if they're not gonna hire Chardonnay, I don't wanna be there.

But then, of course, I went unemployed and broke for a very long time and I started freelancing.

I was only 25.

I didn't know what I was doing.

And because I was just freelancing, everybody was like, why don't you just start a business out of this?

And I'm like, how?

Where?

I don't know.

So, I freelanced for about three years before I actually became full-time in Touch Cleveland.

But that's how I started.

I fell into it.

- You walked into it.

(Chardonnay laughing) You walked into it.

Erica, talk to us a little bit about your journey as an entrepreneur, 'cause you have a couple things going on.

- I do, I do.

- All right.

- And they're on two totally different ends of the spectrum, but most importantly, the 2brown Girls Management came about with my best friend.

It actually started, because I went through a period of time where I was homeless and one of the things that I found was that when I was trying to get into certain shelters, they had criteria that I didn't meet.

And it was in my mind it was like, okay, if I'm homeless and I'm looking, why would I have to meet these criteria?

- Right.

- So, I actually wanted to open a home for women with children, but I ended up getting a job working for the Department of Defense.

And in their finance office, we paid the retired military as well as active duty.

And a lot of the callers that I would speak to about their pay were homeless.

And I'm like, wait, I see your pay.

I know you have money, but they just didn't know how to manage it mostly because of their mental illness.

So, I actually transitioned from wanting to do women and opened up a group home for disabled veterans.

During that journey, that's been open for about three years.

I love my guys.

But during that journey, I did have a son and found another issue.

So, I think, my journey is mainly about solving issues, because when I got pregnant with my son, I noticed that they didn't have many options for boys' clothing.

So, that's when I realized, okay, I have to do that myself.

So, I'm more of the the problem-solver.

So, that's how I got into my entrepreneur journey.

- All right.

And I'm gonna stick with you for a moment, - Okay.

- because I had the privilege of touring Tower City last week for Untappd TC.

- Okay.

- Those of y'all that don't know, Tower City is alive and well, is open, there are businesses, and you are one of them.

- It is.

- So, talk to me about why Tower City.

(Erica chuckles) You have a retail business.

You have a lot of locations you could have picked.

- Mm-hmm.

- And what has it meant for you to be inside of a building that's going through this resurgence?

- Why not Tower City?

Tower City has been around for so long and it's a part of all of our history.

I fell into that as well.

It wasn't a place...

I didn't know it was open.

It was crazy, because a local DJ put up a post and asked, "If you had the opportunity to get into Tower City, would you do it?"

And I'm like, sure, yeah, why not?

So, that's how I got connected with Beth and Bedrock.

And I know a lot of people look at it as a dead situation, but number one, Bedrock is a phenomenal management company.

Anything that we need, the marketing, everything about it is just beautiful.

My experience there, I was the first on their revitalization plan.

So, I've been the guinea pig for a lot of different things.

But it's been a great journey.

I believe that because I'm at Tower City, I get a lot more exposure, because of the marketing.

And because we're rebuilding, I get a lot of news exposure, different things like that.

So, I love it.

I love that journey.

- Yeah.

So, Luis, we have worked together in a number of capacities, nonprofit organizations.

And so, building off, Erica talked about some of the services from a management company.

I'd like to hear from your experiences in working with small business service providers in the local ecosystem.

What's been great, what hasn't been great, and be honest, 'cause if you don't, I'm gonna pull your coattail, (Chardonnay and Erica laughs) 'cause I know... - Okay.

- We talked about this.

- So, I'll start with what's been great.

For me, personally, I actually have a contract with one of the local SBDCs that focuses on the Latino- - What's the SBDC?

- A Small Business Development Center.

It's called Hispanic Business Center.

Randy Cedeno director there, in the back.

I have a contract with them to provide advisory services for people who are looking for access to capital.

So, that's been one way that those type of organizations have been great for my company, because when they are looking to create workshops or provide CPA services or professional services to companies, they wanna send referrals of people that look like the customer base.

And so, that's one way that the local entrepreneurship organizations have been very helpful.

In another way where they haven't been, it gets a little bit tough sometimes, because sometimes it's more about...

Sometimes it feels like you can get put into a room where it's just to check a box for a day or an event or a, we're looking for companies, we wanna give contracts too.

But all they're doing is finding every single reason why you don't fit - Mm.

- what they're looking for.

But they know what they were looking for from the beginning, so why let you sign up?

- Mm.

- Right?

And then, you get into that real tough conversation about access to capital.

And the organizations themselves are fighting for capital sometimes amongst each other.

So, the fight becomes this organization thinks they could do this work better and this work better.

And me as the entrepreneur, I'm like, well, I'm gonna work with all of you, because I needed the person who's gonna help me today.

I can't wait for you to solve your organizational issues six months from now.

I have a business I'm running today.

So, sometimes I think that could be a place where they could do better.

And understanding that part and realizing that the whole ecosystem is supposed to support the businesses that it has within its ecosystem.

Not have us waiting for them to figure out where this funding's coming from, for which organization is gonna support.

And then, we're at the end - Mm.

- like, oh, the help is here three months after the fact.

- Mm.

So, that became a big sticking point during the pandemic.

And, Chardonnay, I'd love for you to talk about your experiences with the small business ecosystem on your current journey.

I'm not gonna tell you what to say, (Chardonnay laughing) but you tell us what it's been.

- Well, so as a service provider, I think, it's a lot harder.

I think that when you're trying to get funding and you have a product or any type of retail, it's real easy for someone to look at the numbers.

Oh, you're selling this for this much, this is your cost, this is your profit, but when it's service, it's like, oh, okay, what exactly are you providing?

How do you measure that?

And of course, it's not consistent.

It's no way to say, this is what I'm charging every single client, 'cause every project is different.

For me, I think, what has also hindered me is that on paper, it looks like I've been in business for seven years.

So, it's like, oh, you should be thriving.

Well, again, the first three, I was freelancing.

I was still trying to find a job.

(everybody laughing) I didn't think that it was gonna turn into seven years.

And so, on paper, it probably looks like I should be a lot further along, but it's like, well no, I feel like I've only really been in business for four of those years.

And also, I'm a first generation entrepreneur.

I've literally had to self-teach every single thing that I've learned, along with reaching out to these organizations for help.

I feel like quite a few of the organizations in Cleveland, from what I've experienced, they don't take you seriously until they see that you've already accomplished things for yourself, - Mm.

- which I have a problem with that.

It's like, okay, so you don't wanna help me when I have this idea for real, but once I start name-dropping the clients I've landed on my own, now all of a sudden, you wanna help me?

No, you don't get to check a box for me now and say that I'm one of these entrepreneurs that you've built from the ground up, because you haven't.

And then, they wanna come with their little surveys and make you fill out their survey.

And the fact that these organizations are collecting funding by advertising that they are, or by saying that they're helping Black and Brown businesses, but they're not really giving us that help, that's a problem for me.

One of the other things I've experienced that really, really bothers me, and I will call out this name, but I love them.

So, there's good and bad.

I've worked with SCORE twice, seeking business mentors.

My very first experience with the SCORE mentor working on some financial things was excellent.

My second (chuckles) experience with the SCORE mentor was not so good.

I'm in the process of restructuring right now to expand my business in another city and needed help with this second part of my business plan.

As soon as I gave this particular person the first intro of my business plan and my financials, he disappeared.

Still haven't heard from him.

That's the second time that's happened to me.

Now, I don't wanna make the allegation that my information is being misused, but it's a very, very, very, very, very uncomfortable situation when you already don't know what you don't know, and you're trying to go out here and trust people, and you're sharing all of your personal information and they're not getting back to you.

So, for me, sometimes, I really feel stuck between a rock and a hard place, because I need help.

I am definitely at that place now where I can say I need help to really make it to that next step, but I also don't feel like I know who to trust.

- Yeah.

And that's real.

I think, as an entrepreneur, it's a constant journey.

You're learning something new every day.

You're meeting new people.

You get into a space where people say they wanna help you, and then it's like, put up or shut up.

Right?

- Yeah.

Show me you can show me better you can tell me.

- [Chardonnay] Yeah.

- And I think, it's important for us to make sure the service providers understand how hard it can be sometimes just trying to get help - Yep.

- while you're in that vulnerable place.

So, let's talk a little bit about capital, because you guys are all in different parts of your journey.

And, Erica, I wanna start with you, because you have a retail business and you also have the group home.

So, what has that experience been?

Have you tried to gain access to capital from any of the local banks or other entities that provide capital resources?

And what has that experience been like for you?

- Well, to piggyback off of what Char said, it really is a situation with, because like her, I was a first generation entrepreneur.

A lot of things, like Char, I had to learn on my own.

Someone reaching out to places like SCORE and different places, the main thing was, okay, we wanna see how much you can put up on your own first.

So, you put up your own and then it's, wait, you did that wrong.

You should have reached out for capital.

And it's like, okay, it's misinformation.

It's do this, do that.

And then, after you've jumped through all of the hoops, it's no, you're still not qualified.

So, to me, it's frustrating, because when you don't know and you don't have a mentor, you don't know the right questions to ask.

So, you're in a room and you're just like, I wish you would just feed me what I need.

But because I don't know the right questions to ask, sometimes I get lost in translation.

So, the journey to funding for me has not been good.

- Have you attempted to get capital from any- - I have.

Mm-hmm.

- Okay.

- Yes.

- Luis, what about you?

(Luis clears throat) - So, my access to capital adventure.

(everybody laughing) - [Danielle] Dun, dun, dun.

- It's been a little different.

I'm not gonna lie.

But it's been a little different, because of the awful experiences I had.

Like I told you, in my 20s, I tried a whole bunch of businesses and getting capital at a time where you didn't understand how to put together a P&L.

It wasn't gonna happen for anybody.

So, this time around when I went in, I knew that you have to ask for capital when you don't need it.

And so, me being a tax person, I went into the bank trying to get a line of credit right after tax season ended while my bank was still showing that I had a good season.

I didn't wait 'til the tax season was gonna start when my funding might be depleted and things might be a little bit backed up to request the funding.

And I was lucky enough to obtain it, but it's because of the hard knock experiences I already had and all the challenges I had to get it in the first place that I understood that part.

Just like I understood that I couldn't go in there asking for money without a good credit score.

But you have to have money in order to fix your credit.

So, sometimes, it doesn't go hand in hand.

So, just for me, the experience has been that I just had to, from my own personal experiences, realize the tough decisions I had to make to make my company bankable.

But it's not the same situation for everybody that is coming asking for capital.

And a lot of times, people ask for capital when they actually need it.

So, now, the bills are piling up, the AR isn't getting paid on time.

And so, now they're looking at you, all the banks are looking at you from a different perspective.

Now, all of a sudden, you're not bankable.

They don't see how you're gonna be able to maintain your monthly loan payment and pay those loans back.

And so, I think that that's part of the challenge.

How do we get ahead of it?

How does your bank and every bank, and I know there's banks here, are you actually talking to the people that you are banking?

Those companies.

Because a lot of times, they tell us, oh, you should have a relationship with your banker.

But a lot of times, your banker isn't reciprocating that relationship.

And if your banker who knows the right time to put in a loan request to their underwriter actually knew their book and portfolio of businesses, we may not have the such of an issue of access to capital that Black and Brown communities face.

- That's a mic drop.

(everybody laughing) Chardonnay, I want you to talk a little bit about in that process, if you have decided to access capital, what that experience has been like for you.

And then, maybe advice that you've been given that is not then applicable to what you're trying to do.

Sometimes we get people to say, oh, credit is bad.

You don't wanna have credit.

I know, I was a lender and there are a lot of people that have come that would have conversations.

They wanted to grow their business, but they didn't want any debt.

- Well, yeah, that's been exactly my issue.

So, I have not went after loans purposely, because I'm like, I still got these student loans.

Are y'all all crazy?

No.

(attendees laughing) So, I have just built off my own capital, which is not good when you're trying to scale.

The issue though is that you go in a bank and they look at what was your profit, what's in your account now?

And it's like, can you go buy the gross, please?

Don't go by that.

We're all trying to write things off to be taxed as less as possible, but then your loan is based off of that.

And it's like, well, no, don't pay attention to that number.

I need more money than that.

(Chardonnay laughing) Or they want you to have employees.

But you look at the statistics and it is known across the board that Black and Brown businesses lack getting to the place of having employees.

Yet that's the contingency upon whether or not you have access to these grants or these loans.

So, it's like, wait, what?

I did see them trying to get it right during the PPP.

They had changed it like what, six months later though.

And by then, it's like, well, thanks, I'm starving over here.

I've lost this, I've lost that waiting on that money.

But across the board, I think, we need to take a look at those statistics a little more closely as far as those requirements of having employees.

The question is, am I paying people?

My payroll still was $60,000 last year, whether it was employees or not.

I'm still paying people.

And I think that just needs to be taken into consideration, as far as when we're going after grants.

You spoke of the relationship, Luis, and I feel that too.

I think that we have to interview for everything else.

I feel like loans and grants should also go by a company and its reputation.

'Cause sometime, that alone is more valuable than what some books can show or how many people is working for them.

- Yeah.

- So, Erica, you talked about being in business for three years.

So, that means part of this has been during the pandemic.

- Mm-hmm.

- We talked a little bit from both of the panelists about experiences with some grants and loans and different programs.

What did the pandemic do to your business?

How did you survive that?

What were those experiences like?

- Well, actually, the pandemic did really good for my business.

Not so much the group home, because that's just a standard fee across the board.

But as far as Jaxon's Closet, my boys' clothing line, number one, it created a hustle inside of me that I never even knew that I had.

(Chardonnay laughing) But number two, because of some of the grants that we were awarded that helped with getting inventory, and then eventually opening the store in Tower City, so that the...

The pandemic actually really helped my business.

But I will say...

I lost my train of thought.

(panelists laughing) - [Danielle] We'll come back to it unless you got it now.

- No, I lost it.

- Okay.

So, now, thinking about your business specifically, you are a retail business, and Chardonnay talked about this a little bit that Luis and Chardonnay both have service-based businesses.

As a retail business provider, what have been some of your biggest obstacles, I think about Amazon or Walmart or some of these big box places that people think about when doing their retail shopping.

How have you encountered that?

What have your experiences been?

- Well, the major issue for me is because I have a custom brand.

So, I deal with manufacturers.

I build from scratch.

So, my biggest issue is, number one, having the funding to get inventory, but also being able to trust my manufacturers.

I've had a situation where I was able to get the funding to get a whole line of clothes and my manufacturer disappeared on me.

So, my biggest issue is really just having a network of people, because that's something that could have been avoided had I known different steps.

But again, because I'm learning as I go, some of the things are just pricing mistakes that I've made.

But I think, as the corporations that we have here in Cleveland to help businesses, I think, just more information will help with our retail businesses.

- Okay.

Luis, we talked a little bit during the pandemic about how hard it was for certain people to get access to the PPP loans or the EIDL loans.

You had to have proof of income, you had to have your taxes, you had to have all of these things.

So, as a CPA, what did it mean for you specifically in your community to be able to provide these services?

What kind of things did you see?

What kind of challenges?

- Well, let's start number one with the fact that a lot of entrepreneurs were paying themselves, but had no record of it.

They weren't actually cutting themselves a check every week.

They were pulling out the cash when it was available.

So, that was one thing that from the beginning when they said you had to run payroll, 'cause you had to show your payroll stubs to get the PPP loan, it turned out that later on, they just went towards the Schedule C, because at least, there, you could show what your net income was.

The dip, the problem was with the net income, they weren't in accounting for depreciation, mileage, and things like that, that knocked down your net income for lower net income so you could pay less taxes.

So, now, you're just getting a PPP loan based on that net income, not actually what you were paying yourself as the owner of that business.

So, that was one huge challenge.

Secondly, more particular to my community was the fact that there were language barriers involved with all those applications and every organization that was providing those loans.

They didn't understand how they had to fill out those applications.

They didn't understand exactly what was the statements they needed and exact information they had to put in.

So, me as a bilingual CPA, I was able to provide a lot of those services.

And I'm not gonna front, I was partnered up with HPC in providing a lot of those services that thankfully, a lot of our small businesses we're able to obtain at no cost to them.

But then, you had to be, you became the interpreter and the translator, because now, later on down the line, if you helped them get the PPP, they came to you whatever message they got from the bank when it came to the loan forgiveness programs.

And if they had payroll, Lord knows that everybody did not understand that who could speak and write the language that the forms were in.

So, imagine (phone ringing) if you didn't understand them, and there weren't Spanish language forms or any other language for that matter.

So, that became one of the biggest challenges, I believe, to small businesses more specifically with language barriers.

- Awesome.

It's so complex, because then you think about, for you as a business owner, not only are you just trying to run your business, but now you're being like a social service provider.

- Exactly.

- in the community as well.

- [Luis] Yeah.

- And that can be a disadvantage, because others - Yeah.

- in the majority White community may not have to have that additional responsibility.

- Yeah.

Entrepreneurship and civic duty go hand in hand sometimes.

(everybody laughing) - Yeah.

(attendees clapping) Yeah.

Sure does.

(Luis laughing) - So, Chardonnay, I know we also had a chance to do some things together during the pandemic.

I was walking around with a boot on my ankle at the MLB - Yeah.

- All-Star.

(Chardonnay laughing) But talk about your experiences with having to prove yourself.

You said going into banking institutions, you wanna be - Yeah.

- interviewed sometimes, but then, when you're doing other mediums and other type of work, what has that experience been for making sure people realize the price that you're charging, you're absolutely worth it and you deserve every penny you're asking for.

- Well, to be honest, I feel like that's something I'm still struggling with is getting that right.

I have to start looking in the mirror these days.

Like you've been in business in this career for almost 10 years.

(attendees laughing) You de...

So, I'm having those talks with myself right now.

(attendees laughing) Okay.

Because I'm in marketing, I'm in this field, this industry that I feel like is very saturated.

People think if they can do a social media post that they understand marketing.

And it's not that.

I've gotten a degree in this.

I've spent 10 years in my field and I'm still learning the nuances of marketing, of public relations.

And there's so many other things that change it or that dictate it.

So, it's almost insulting sometimes when you do have people with no real background in it that are also claiming that they do it.

And so, it makes the market share all over the place.

It's very hard to charge very high prices when you're competing with people that are charging half of that.

Not to mention, of course, yes, being a young Black woman.

I feel like there's constantly trying to prove... Luis, you mentioned earlier too, that you didn't spend a bunch of time with a big company.

And while I did have some fairly big companies under my belt, I didn't spend 10 years in a big marketing agency where everybody just knew my name when I came out the door.

So, I feel like there's... All you can do is let your work speak for itself, which is why I do try to take on projects.

Danielle applauded me when I didn't even know her by being a part of an impact series that my company did, where we interviewed 10 entrepreneurs and we asked them like, how has it been building your business, navigating systemic racism?

And so, I was very grateful to meet you around that time.

And it's doing projects like that that have, if anything given I guess, a highlight to my work and what I do and what we stand for, just to take those type of things and run with it.

So, I'd say that's how I've had to prove myself.

That's how I'd recommend that anybody prove their self.

Just do the work and let it speak for itself.

- So, I'm gonna give you guys all a chance to do a final statement before we open for Q and A from the audience.

So, you got bankers in the room, you have service providers in the room, you have movers and shakers and just everybody in here.

What is one or two things that you would say people can do to better support Black and Brown entrepreneurs?

Or five, whatever how many.

(everybody laughing) - Well, here's the thing with the word support that I've been finding is hard for me.

I almost sometimes don't want to use that word, because it comes with so much responsibility behind it.

- [Danielle] Hmm.

- I feel like some people when they say I've supported, it's like charity almost.

And they feel an obligation for you to be - Yeah.

- excited about it - Take a picture.

- or appreciative.

And sometimes, it's just not that.

If we make a transaction to where you buy something from me and I sell it to you, you like it, I think that should be enough.

But I think, with the word support, it just gets a little sticky.

But as far as coming from where I am, the thing that I like the most, like I said, is just knowledge, information.

I feel like we have to dig a lot for the information.

- [Danielle] Mm.

- I've had to learn a lot on my own.

I've had to research and research and get put here and sent there.

I've gotten with mentors that don't know anything about the business that I'm in.

So, it's like they're limited on the things that they can help me with.

And then, again, with the capital, with me being a small business, it's hard for me to cut costs for my clothing, because you have a Gap who can order tens of thousands of pieces at one time.

But because I have to order a smaller quantity, the cost is large, and with the recession coming up or if we're in it right now, - Yeah.

- that just makes it harder for the moms that are shopping for their sons.

So, we have to do the different things to pivot, like make clothes that you can wear in different ways.

Just become real creative in that.

So, I think, again, with the access and the knowledge.

- Thank you.

What would you tell people?

- Okay, I got a list.

(everybody laughing) - I see somebody taking notes.

- Okay.

So, for the predominantly White-led organizations that proclaim to help Black and Brown businesses, I think that they should be more intentional about giving that funding to other nonprofit organizations that may be on the come up.

So, there are several people who are also trying to start initiatives that have not reached the level of a Urban League or a JumpStart, but clearly both of those organizations are at capacity.

So, why not reach down to some more grassroot nonprofit individuals and give that funding, so that they can help you help other Black and Brown businesses, and people that actually look like them.

I also think that, again, practical knowledge is the best teacher.

I'm so grateful for a professor I had in Notre Dame College.

I still sing his praises all these years later, 'cause he was such a practical professor.

I got real, real, real experience before I ever set foot out here.

And I think that that's what's needed too.

I find it ironic that many of the organizations that are here to help us, there's not people there that actually have run businesses themselves.

Some have, but not enough.

And so, if you have not actually been out here crying at night about how you about to land this contract or serve this client the next day, there is only but so much that you are really gonna be able to help me, because you do not know my plight.

So, I feel also like I think that businesses should adopt a business.

I would love to see that.

Sometimes I'm sitting up here like, why am I up here looking for a HR manager?

I'm sure there is some organization out here that has a HR manager that you guys might be good right now, twiddling your thumbs.

I could use some of that help and I'm sure I don't have as many HR needs as someone else.

So, it would be really nice if businesses start adopting a couple small businesses.

After the pandemic, I'm sure you guys got a whole lot of office space that nobody's using 'cause everybody's working from home.

All of these things (attendees laughing) are so valuable.

For those who don't have an address, I have yet to invest in a space for my business.

And some people may look at it like, oh, she doesn't have a office?

No, I don't.

It's more overhead.

I'm not paying for it.

And I travel to my clients as a way to be more personal.

So, I would never be there anyways, which is why I've never signed a lease and I don't plan on it.

But for those who care, it would be nice to have a place.

And why should I have to take over that overhead, again, as a still smaller business, when there's so many organizations out here who have more than enough space that they could be using.

So, I think, if there were... We have these incubators, but the...

Forget the incubator, I'm saying she should be able to go and work with a bigger retailer.

I should be able to maybe go and be housed in a Dix & Eaton, whatever it is.

But actual businesses incubating us.

And let's see, was there anything... Oh, I think that about covers it.

(attendees laughing) - If not, Q and A is coming around.

(Chardonnay laughing) We're not done yet.

- Okay.

- Luis, What would be your - Oh, I'll keep- - advice to support businesses.

- I'll keep it short and simple, 'cause I know time is running up on us.

But the bottom line is stop giving nos without an actual solution to that company you're saying no to.

That's it.

It could be that simple.

Please, if you're gonna tell a company no, you don't have access to capital, this loan isn't there for you today.

Give them the actual resource that they need to get there.

Because just saying no and sending them out the door is not creating a healthy economic environment.

- [Attendee 1] Yeah.

- You keep dropping the mic, but listen, - Drop.

- ladies and gentlemen, we are about to begin the audience Q and A.

Again, I'm Danielle Sydnor, president of the NAACP Cleveland branch, and the CEO of Rise Together Innovation Center.

I am moderating today's conversation on what it'll take for more equitable future for Black and Brown entrepreneurs.

On the stage with me today is Luis Cartagena, president and CEO of Cartagena CPA & Consultants, LLC, Chardonnay Graham, owner of Touch Cleveland LLC, and Erica Malone, co-owner of 2brown Girls Management and owner of Jaxon's Closet.

We welcome questions for everyone, City Club members, guest, and those joining via our livestream at cityclub.org or on the radio broadcast at 89.7 Ideastream Public Media.

You can text your questions to 330-541-5794.

Again, you can tweet your questions as well if you tweet at thecityclub.

And you can text them.

Again, 330-541-5794.

That's 330-541-5794.

And our staff will work to make sure they get the questions into the program.

I see we have a first question already.

- Yeah, so this is aimed primarily at Luis.

As you know, Cleveland, Northeast Ohio is home to a great many immigrants.

Many of them are Black and Brown.

Can you talk about the potential impact these people could have if they became entrepreneurs?

Because I've read several articles lately that say the key to reviving the economy is more immigrant entrepreneurs.

- Yeah, I think, honestly, that's an easy one for me.

When you go out of town, what's the most exciting thing that happens when you're visiting one of these bigger major cities?

It's diverse.

There's a lot of things that you could do.

You can eat all kinds of different meals from different cultures and different backgrounds.

You could visit different neighborhoods that are completely different from the one than you're normally living in today.

So, to me, that's quick and easy.

Bring the resources, because Cleveland is only gonna expand.

It's only gonna be a must be place if you have a diverse community where people can come in and realize, oh my god, this is Cleveland?

I just went from Little Italy to Hispanic Villa, to little Africa, to Little Mexico, to the Asian Indian community.

It's all around, but we need more entrepreneurs, because that's what flourishes.

The restaurants aren't gonna build themselves.

And that to me is what makes going on vacation exciting, because you get to go and see a whole bunch of stuff that you're not used to seeing.

- Thank you.

Next question.

- Hi.

Good afternoon.

Thank you.

My name is Greg Kapcar.

And I guess, I wanted to share some information about a grant program that just came across my desk today and maybe ask you for your comments on it.

So, it appears as though the county has a stimulus grant program.

You're nodding your heads.

Familiar with it?

- [Chardonnay] Oh, yeah.

I was very excited to see that.

- Okay, awesome.

(attendees laughing) So, I'm gonna turn it over to you, but I'll just set the stage for you.

So, I guess, it stands for significant, transformative, impactful, minority-focused grant program, and they're accepting applications from August 3rd through September 9th, I believe.

And that comes in increments of $10,000, $25,000, and $50,000.

So, just wanted to open the discussion around that grant program and how it might be helpful to companies.

- I think, it's gonna be very helpful.

Again, it just goes to show that it's like the service providers are always last on the list, 'cause that's more so befitting for us.

There was a lot of dollars given to the restaurants and catering businesses last year.

So, I'm just glad to see that they're finally doing it.

What would be helpful, and granted, I only very briefly skimmed it, so it may be there, but it would be nice if what they're looking for in the applications or what they're looking for as far as selecting individuals was front and center.

They are providing webinars to go over that, but it's like, I wanna get my application in right away, but now I have to wait until these two set webinar times to find out what they're looking for, and then still apply and hope and pray that I'm one of those that get the funding.

Again, I'm already concerned that based on... What is it that?

Which one is it?

Luis, we'll talk.

Yeah.

(panelists laughing) Based on the net or how many employees I have, it's going to mean that I'll only get the 10, but I need the 50.

Let's just be clear.

I need the 50 and I can show all the reasons why I need it and why I'm going to use it.

So, I just hope that the process of actually considering who gets it is thorough.

And so, I don't know what the application looks like, but I think, it would be nice if we start, if we were able to see that upfront more often.

- Any other comments?

Another question?

- Thank you.

We have a text question that has come in.

It says, "Can you address entrepreneurship education?

I teach at the high school level and entrepreneur's presence as mentors and speakers in the classroom matters."

- So, have any of you guys done anything in the high school level or provided support to students?

- Actually, I'm doing that now.

There's a program out of New York, way in New York, - Mm-hmm.

- that has sent me interns.

So, they're virtual, but the state of New York pays the interns for me.

And in return, well, they're supposed to work for me, but in return, I'm like, let's make this a give-give situation.

If you're looking to be an entrepreneur, ask me questions, whatever you need, because that's what I was looking for when I came up as an entrepreneur, just someone who can take me by the hand and walk me at least through the first steps.

So, that's what I'm doing right now.

I have three interns that I'm helping with their entrepreneur journey as well as their helping me with mine.

- Anybody else?

- So, my experience with entrepreneurship on the high school level, I was fortunate enough to work with some students from Hathaway Brown.

I've taken a few one as interns over the last few years.

And I'm not gonna lie, they were better than some of the college interns I've taken on.

(everybody laughing) But Hathaway Brown has a phenomenal entrepreneurship program.

They're giving very, very practical knowledge.

They have cafes and different things set up on their campus where the kids can actually work and earn money.

And so, I do think that practical teaching is the best teacher as far as entrepreneurship being this study.

'Cause it was not a study at all when I was in school.

As far as it being this major, now on the high school and college level, I just hope that they are actually teaching the kids the part of entrepreneurship that everybody doesn't see.

Are you teaching them actually how to be their own HR manager and accountant and legal person until they get to the point of being able to hire those things.

Because that's probably my biggest hangup.

It's not doing the marketing, obviously got that part.

It's not (chuckles) the service itself as far as working with the clients.

That part I got down packed.

It is trying to wear all the hats until I get to the point where I can pay someone 70, $80,000 to be in those positions.

So, I think that entrepreneurship is glorified now as where it is just, oh, yeah, all you need to do is start this business.

No.

And what about all of the other things in the background?

So, I would just say I hope that the studies are going into those sectors as well.

- Good.

Another question?

- Hi.

Thank you.

So, I have a comment and a question.

Just listening to the panelists, it sounds like the ecosystem is disjointed.

It's like everybody is working in silos.

It's like this organization over here deals with that, another organization deals with that.

And any of your experiences and dealings with the different organizations that you have worked with or maybe somebody knows, is there one organization or maybe two organizations that focus on the entire ecosystem from A to Z and helping some of the people to navigate?

So, some of the things that these entrepreneurs on the panel mention, if I go there, then you can take me, it's like a one-stop shop, but I don't have to figure it out all on my own where I'm doing a lot of the legwork.

- That actually does exist.

I'll admit I don't think that it is perfect yet, but they have seen it.

That's the issue.

So, they have what's called the Business Growth Collaborative.

Right, Danielle?

- Mm.

- And that is pretty much the ecosystem of all of the organizations in Cleveland.

If I'm not mistaken, GCP, ECDI.

Who else there?

- Urban League.

- Yeah, Urban League.

Everybody's within that.

The only thing I have seen that's the issue there, and Destination Cleveland is actually starting to be involved with that as well.

So that when people are moving here or new here, they can also plug them into that system.

I think, the only issue is still that there's some duplication.

And as far as people still providing the same things, which is needed to some extent, because there's too many people to serve, but they're trying, I don't know, they're trying, there is something there.

So, I would say check out the Business Growth Collaborative.

It's probably the closest thing we do have to be in that one-stop shop to connect you to everyone.

- Another question?

- Hi.

Great forum.

My question is for Ms. Graham.

You talked about having a couple of mentors, one excellent and one not so hot.

And so, my question for you is, at this point in your career, how important is it to you to have a mentor and what qualities are you looking for in a mentor?

- It's extremely important and I don't think that there's any point in my career where I won't need a mentor.

And now, I'm just focused on making sure I'm taking on mentees, so that I give back how they've given to me.

In fact, you have one sitting next to you, Ms. Barbara (indistinct) She is someone I've worked with in New York Life, was one of my very first clients to take a chance on me, and has been there throughout my career to pick up the phone and talk to me about whatever, whenever.

And even though she's never been a formal, formal mentor, she has mentored me.

So, I think, it's very important for me.

I'm just looking for someone who's gonna give it to me straight, no chaser.

'Cause as you can see, that's pretty much how I go about things.

(panelists laughing) I'm looking for someone who again, can teach me very practically, who can give me practical knowledge, who's willing to give me the game, literally.

If you guys don't know what that means, that means giving actual instructions.

(panelists laughing) Yeah, I'm looking for someone who again, believes in me, believes in my vision, and who is also willing to go to bat for me, because Lord knows that any people that's in my circle, I fight for, I vouch for, I support as well, and so I'm just looking for a mentor that'll do the same.

- Thank you.

Another question?

- Hi.

Thanks for coming out today.

I loved hearing all your stories.

I work at Tri-C for a program called Goldman Sachs 10,000 Small Businesses, and we help small business owners grow their business with a lot of the things that you all talked about, an education program, as well as practical learning and hands-on peer learning.

So, how can we get this information out to the Black and Brown business owners, so that they know that this is a grant-funded program and there isn't any cost to participate?

- So, love Goldman Sachs, (Danielle and Erica laughing) been stalking them since my year two, second year in business.

Only thing I would say about, well, one, when I first learned of Goldman Sachs, I didn't qualify.

And I was very glad to see that after all of the things in 2020 that the requirements came down a bit.

So, that was a great step all on its own as far as helping us.

I think, just connecting to the organizations here in Cleveland.

I think, you guys have done a great job.

I've heard about you.

I've been very well-aware of you for a while, so I can't really say what you're not doing.

I say just continue to connect with the organizations, definitely with the colleges and universities, 'cause I wish I would've known about it even sooner.

And then, again, just continuing to take a look at the statistics of where Black and Brown businesses actually are and making sure those requirements are fitting for them.

- Another question?

- [Attendee 3] Yes.

This is directed at Chardonnay.

- Oh, okay.

- So, we've got a Twitter question.

So, you recently applied for and were accepted to a Tulsa, Oklahoma remote work program.

How do these issues play out in Tulsa?

Are things any better out there?

- No.

So, think they let the cat out the bag on me.

So, yes, (attendees laughing) so I actually no longer reside in Cleveland.

I actually live currently in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

I was accepted in a remote work program.

So, Tulsa is paying people $10,000 to move there, specifically looking for people who are active in community and business development.

So, I took that opportunity last September.

Honestly, it's the same.

And that was the reason why I took the opportunity.

I've noticed the disconnects in Cleveland, this east and west side thing, and it's very similar in almost every other city in this country.

In Tulsa, it's just a north and a south thing.

I will say Tulsa does have some phenomenal programs as well.

Accelerator programs similar to Goldman Sachs.

I've already applied for a few, but again, it's the same thing.

These long applications that sometimes doesn't always really get the nuts and bolts of who your organization really is and just a lot of people applying to those same programs.

It's also the same thing here, where it's like once you tap into one organization, you can easily get connected to all of them, but then you're gonna run into the same problems in all of them as well.

So, unfortunately, I think, it's the same quite a bit.

I will go ahead and throw this nugget out there though, that I've been very, very, very, very impressed to see some of the spaces that Black and Brown businesses are in in Tulsa compared to Cleveland.

So, Tulsa is only about 15% Black, where Cleveland is what?

Like 46, I think, or may be a little lower now.

And this is probably a bad example, but hear me out here.

So, I have found two Black-owned liquor stores in Tulsa, which is phenomenal to me, considering that again, it's like 40 something percent Black here in Cleveland and there's none.

But there's no shortage of them in our communities.

- Wow, wow.

- Right.

- So, it makes me wonder what are the laws, the costs, what is stopping - The (faintly speaks) the businesses from getting into those industries?

So, it's stuff like that that I'm interested in uncovering between Ohio and Oklahoma now.

But I'm sad to say that it's the same issues all over this country.

- We have one more question?

- [Attendee 2] Hi.

(Myra chuckles) - Hello.

I'm Myra Rosario.

I'm the president of Latino Cleveland Media Group.

Very glad to be here.

(speaks in Spanish) I see a lot of Latino faces.

So, I've been an entrepreneur for 15 years and this question is for Luis, because genuinely, I really wanna ask this question that I've been to a lot of events as an entrepreneur for 15 years where Black and Brown entrepreneurs are mixed together.

How much does that really affect the Hispanics?

Because for perspective, I know that Northeast Ohio has created a lot of Black millionaires, but there aren't as many Hispanic millionaires that have been developed out of our community.

Do you feel the constant combination of the Black and Brown is affecting the Hispanic community versus giving us our own personal platforms that's not just something that's developed for Hispanics?

Do you get what I'm saying?

Do you understand the question?

So, the question is how does these Black and Brown things really truly affect the Hispanic?

do we get the platform we need?

Are we getting the services we need?

Are we getting lumped into minority group, which is this is what system racism is.

So, just love to...

Sorry, it was a load, but you're probably (panelists laughing) the most qualified to answer it.

(chuckles) - So, it's a little bit of a loaded question, but I'm gonna answer it with my own personal opinion.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- And for me, this is what inclusion is about.

And inclusion, it's real easy for us to go and say, you're not doing this, you're not doing that.

But sometimes, there's self-reflection and inclusion.

And understanding that all of our minority communities are going through the same challenges.

- Right.

- Right?

And we gotta be smarter.

It's not about who got to the table first.

It's the resource available to everyone after that particular person or group figured out how to make sure that that resource became available.

(attendee coughing) And so, if we're not together and we're not supporting each other and we're not sitting in the same rooms, - [Danielle] Mm.

- then we're causing double work sometimes.

And how are we going to be able to tell our story?

That is to say to someone, hey, take a minute to translate that document if we're not sitting at the same tables.

- That's right.

- Okay.

- Thank you.

- So, I'll leave it at that.

No, that concludes it.

- And you guys can continue to talk offline, but we are going to close now, because they we're gonna start running the credits on the radio.

So, thank you again, (attendees laughing) Luis, Chardonnay, and Erica for joining us here today at The City Club.

Today's forum is the second forum in The City Club's building success series in partnership with Huntington Bank.

The City Club would also like to welcome at guest tables hosted by PNC and Huntington Bank.

Thank you all for being here with us today.

Coming up next week, on Friday, August the 12th, reporter Kabir Bhatia with Ideastream Public Media will continue our series on behavioral health.

This time, focusing on care for the region's unhoused.

And if you missed it, a batch of new forums have been added online at cityclub.org.

On August the 17th, we'll be joined by Nan Whaley, democratic candidate for governor of Ohio.

And then, on August the 19th, the Cleveland Metroparks CEO, Brian Zimmerman, will be in conversation with City Club CEO, Dan Moulthrop.

He's gonna wear white pants that day.

(attendees laughing) Join us to learn what... - White pants day.

- Join us to learn what is next for our region's Emerald Necklace.

Tickets will be available for all these forums, and you can learn more on cityclub.org.

And that brings us to the end of today's forum.

Thank you once again to our panelist and thank you to members and friends of The City Club.

I am Danielle Sydnor, and this forum is now adjourned.

(bell rings) (everybody clapping) (panelist faintly speaking) (lively music) - [Advertiser 1] For information on upcoming speakers or for podcasts of The City Club, go to cityclub.org.

(bright music) - [Advertiser 2] Production and distribution of City Club forums on Ideastream Public Media are made possible by PNC and the United Black Fund of Greater Cleveland Incorporated.