WELCOME TO "KENTUCKY TONIGHT."

I'M RENEE SHAW.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

OUR TOPIC TONIGHT: THE FUTURE OF POLICING IN AMERICA.

THE MURDER CONVICTION FOR GEORGE FLOYD'S DEATH IN MINNEAPOLIS, THE SHOOTING DEATH OF BREONNA TAYLOR IN LOUISVILLE, AND OTHER OFFICER INVOLVED KILLINGS ACROSS THE COUNTRY HAVE REINVIGORATED CALLS FOR MAJOR POLICE REFORMS.

IN WASHINGTON NEGOTIATIONS ARE UNDERWAY ON A CONGRESSIONAL REMEDY TO FIGHT POLICE MISCONDUCT, EXCESSIVE FORCE, AN RACIAL BIAS IN POLICING.

THE GEORGE FLOYD JUSTICE IN POLICING ACT HAS TWICE PASSED THE HOUSE.

AND A BIPARTISAN, BICAMERAL GROUP OF LAWMAKERS ARE WORKING TO RECONCILE DIFFERENCES ON WHETHER MISCONDUCT LAWSUITS COULD BE FILED AGAINST POLICE DEPARTMENTS RATHER THAN INDIVIDUAL OFFICERS, NO-KNOCK WARRANTS, CHOKEHOLDS AND MORE.

CRITICS OF REFORM EFFORTS WORRY THE PROPOSED REFORMS WOULD MAKE IT HARDER FOR POLICE TO FIGHT C FOR A DEEP DIVE INTO REFORM IDEAS, WE HAVE IN OUR LEXINGTON RYAN STRAW, GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIR CHAIR OF THE KENTUCKY STATE FRATERNAL ORDER OF POLICE.

KETURAH HERRON, POLICY STRATEGIST WITH THE ACLU OF KEN CHIEF JOE MONROE OF THE UNIVERSITY OF KENTUCKY POLICE AND PRESIDENT OF THE KENTUCKY ASSOCIATION OF CHIEFS OF POLICE AND PETER KRASKA, PROFESSOR IN THE SCHOOL OF JUSTICE STUDIES A EASTERN KENTUCKY UNIVERSITY.

AND JOINING US BY SKYPE: WALTER KATZ, VICE PRESIDENT OF E CRIMINAL JUSTICE FOR ARNOLD VEN WE WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU.

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GOOD EVENING, GENTLEMEN, LADY TO OUR OUR NATIONAL GUEST JOINING US BY TYPE IS SKYPE TONIGHT ARE NOT WALTER KATZ.

I WANT TO BEGIN WITH YOU, PROFESSOR KRASKA.

YESTERDAY MARKED THE BEGINNINGS OF NATIONAL POLICE WEEK, AND IN-PERSON ACTIVITIES USUALLY HAPPENING IN WASHINGTON DURING THIS WEEK BUT BECAUSE OF THE PANDEMIC, THEY'VE BEEN POSTPONED UNTIL THE FALL.

A FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY FOR THE WESTERN DISTRICT OF KENTUCKY, RUSSELL COLEMAN, SAID TODAY, "THERE IS NO INCONSISTENCY IN EXPRESSING A DEEP GRATITUDE TO LAW ENFORCEMENT WHILE ALSO SEEKING CONSTANT IMPROVEMENT IN THEIR EFFICACY AND FAIRNESS."

SO LET'S START RIGHT THERE, PROPHECY KRASKA BECAUSE YOU ARE A LEADING SCHOLAR IN THESE AREAS OF POLICING AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE.

DO YOU AGREE WITH THE STATEMENT BY FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY RUSSELL COLEMAN?

AND IN YOUR VIEW, WHAT SHOULD POLICE BE DOING OR THE SYSTEMS BE RESTRUCTURED TO IMPROVE PUBLIC CONFIDENCE IN POLICING?

>> I OVERALL AGREE.

I MEAN, IT'S SUCH A COMPLICATED ISSUE.

OF COURSE, THAT'S WHAT US PROFESSORS DO.

WE COMPLICATED THINGS.

BUT LETTERS IT'S REAL IMPORTANT TO KEEP IT SIMPLE.

ABSOLUTELY THE -- IT'S ALSO IMPORTANT.

ABSOLUTELY THE POLICE INSTITUTION IS IN A CRISIS, AND THAT NEEDS TO BE ACKNOWLEDGED, RECKONED WITH, AND WE HAVE TO GETS TO A POINT WHERE WE'RE WILLING TO HAVE CANDID CONVERSATIONS ABOUT HAS HAPPENED IN THE PAST AND WHAT WE NEED TO DO IN THE FUTURE.

AS FAR AS CRITIQUE, THOUGH, ONE OF THE UNFORTUNATE THINGS THAT HAPPENS WHEN WE TRY TO ASSESS WHAT'S GOING -- WHAT'S GOING WRONG OR WHAT'S HAPPENING OR WHAT CAN BE DONE DIFFERENTLY, SO MUCH OF THE POLICE COMMUNITY AND EVEN POLITICIANS THAT ARE SUPPORTIVE OF POLICE COMMUNITY SIGHT AS SOMEHOW A SLAM TO THE POLICE OR SOMEHOW BEING ANTI-POLICE.

AND, YOU KNOW, I'VE BEEN TEACHING POLICE OFFICERS AND DOING POLICE TRAINING FOR 30 YEARS NOW, AND I DON'T THINK I'VE EVER COME ACROSS AS ANTI-ANYTHING.

I THINK THE KEY IS, IS WHAT DO WE HAVE TO DO TO REALLY GET DOWN INTO THE DETAILS OF THIS AND TRY TO COME UP WITH SOME SOLUTIONS?

AND THEY'RE NOT EASY.

THEY'RE GUT-WRENCHING.

THEY REQUIRE A LOT OF SOUL SEARCHING.

BUT IT'S ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY GIVEN WHERE WE'RE AT.

>> CHIEF MONROE, I WANT TO COME TO YOU, AND WHEN YOU HEARD PROFESSOR KRASKA SAY THE POLICING INSTITUTION IS IN A CRISIS, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT TO BE THE CASE?

>> I TOTALLY AGREE WITH DR. KRASKA ON THAT.

I THINK PART OF THE ISSUE IS WE HAVE TO LOOK AT OURSELVES IN LAW ENFORCEMENT, AND REALLY GO LIKE YOU SAID A DEEP DIVE INTO WHAT'S GOING ON.

AND PART OF THE ISSUE IS TRUST.

WE HAVE TO EARN THE TRUST BACK FROM THE COMMUNITIES.

THAT'S THE NUMBER ONE THING.

AND YOU GET THAT TRUST BY HAVING TRANSPARENCY AND LEGITIMACY.

YOU HAVE TO HAVE THOSE BEFORE YOU CAN EARN THE TRUST.

>> DO YOU FEEL THAT THE CONVERSATION ABOUT POLICE REFORM IS OFTEN BIFURCATED AND THAT THERE IS THOSE WHO ARE FOR REFORM AND THOSE WHO ARE AGAINST REFORM?

AND DO YOU FEEL LIKE POLICING COMMUNITY IS BEING VILIFIED IN THIS DISCUSSION AS A GROUP AS OPPOSED TO LOOKING AT JUST THE INDIVIDUAL BAD ACTORS?

>> WELL, I THINK NATIONALLY IT MAY BE THAT.

IN KENTUCKY, OUR ORGANIZATION IS FOR REFORM.

WE KNOW THAT WE NEED REFORM.

AND ONE OF THOSE THINGS IS THAT WE BELIEVE VERY STRONGLY IN IS ACCOUNTABILITY.

YOU HAVE TO HOLD YOURSELVES ACCOUNTABLE.

>> AND I'LL COME BACK TO THE ACCOUNTABILITY PEACE BECAUSE THERE IS THE LEGISLATION WAS JUST PASSED THAT TALKS ABOUT DESERTION OF POLICE, AND WE'LL GET INTO THAT IN JUST A LITTLE BIT.

WANT TO BRING IN KETURAH HERRON, ACU OF KENTUCKY, MAYBE ABOUT THIS ISSUE AND CERTAINLY NO-KNOCK WARRANTS.

I KNOW THAT ISSUE ABOVE BEEN ACTIVE ON.

JUST A GENERAL BEFORE WE TAKE A DRILL-DOWN ON SPECIFIC AREAS, WHERE DO YOU THINK THE DISCUSSION SHUTS DOWN BE CENTERED AT THIS POINT WHEN WE TALK ABOUT POLICING IN AMERICA?

>> I MEAN, I THINK THE BIGGEST THING THAT WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT IS WE CAN DO REFORM ALL DAY.

WE CAN MAKE DIFFERENT CHANGES.

BUT THE BIGGEST ISSUE IS THAT ACCOUNTABILITY PIECE.

YOU KICKED IT OFF BY SAYING IT'S NATIONAL POLICE WEEK, AND SO I THINK THAT WHAT WE CAN DO FOR OUR OFFICERS IS TO MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE TAKING DUTIES AWAY FROM THEM THAT THEY ARE NOT EQUIPPED TO HANDLE.

WE HAVE SEEN THAT WITH POLICE RESPONDING TO MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES AND THOSE CRISES AND REALLY WE HAVE GOTTEN AWAY FROM ENSURING THAT COMMUNITIES HAVE THE THINGS THAT THEY NEED.

AND SO WHAT I WOULD -- WHAT I WOULD SAY OR SUGGEST IS THAT WHAT WE CAN DO IS SAY THAT THE STRUCTURE OF POLICING AND POLICING -- POLICE SHOULD NOT BE RESPONDING TO CERTAIN THINGS AND GIVE THEM -- THOSE THINGS THAT THEY SHOULD BE RESPONDING TO AND MAKE SURE THAT OUR COMMUNITIES HAVE THINGS THAT THEY NEED.

>> DAUS THAT EQUAL DEFUNDING THE POLICE, IN YOUR MIND?

>> I THINK WE HAVE TO DIVEST FROM POLICING AND INVEST IN COMMUNITIES TO MAKE SURE THAT PEOPLE HAVE WHAT THEY NEED, AND I KNOW THAT WE'RE GOING GET INTO ENDING QUALIFIED IMMUNITY, BUT I THINK THAT THAT'S ONE OF THE BIGGEST POINTS, IS ONCE YOU START SAYING TO POLICE OFFICERS, WE'RE GOING TO HOLD THE ACTUAL DEPARTMENT RESPONSIBLE AND ACCOUNTABLE FOR THAT, THEN THEY WILL MAKE THOSE CHANGES BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT THEIR DOLLARS COMING FROM THAT, BUT RIGHT NOW WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS THAT TAXPAYERS ARE HAVING TO FOOT THE BILL FOR THAT.

LOCAL JURISDICTIONS ARE HAVING TO FOOT THE BILL FOR THAT.

AND THAT MONEY THAT IS BEING PAID OFF ORE FOR THOSE LAWSUITS REALLY NEEDS TO BE INTO THE COMMUNITY.

>> SO WE'RE GOING GET MORE INTO THAT.

RYAN STRAW, WELCOME BACK.

YOU WERE ON NOT TOO LONG AGO, FRATERNAL ORDER OF POLICE.

LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THE CULTURE POLICING BECAUSE I THINK WE HEAR A LOT ABOUT THE FUNDAMENTAL QUESTION IN THE DEBATE SHOULD BE THE CULTURE POLICING.

WHAT IS THE CULTURE POLICING?

>> I THINK THAT IT'S OBVIOUSLY KIND OF NAVIGATED IN A DIFFERENT DIRECTION A LITTLE BIT.

I THINK RIGHT NOW THERE'S STILL A LOT OF PRIDE IN BEING IN LAW ENFORCEMENT, BUT OBVIOUSLY TO EVERYBODY'S COMMENTS, THERE IS A SECTOR THAT DOES FEEL VILIFIED.

THERE'S ALSO ANOTHER GROUP THAT'S OPEN TO CHANGE AND REFORM AND WANTING TO LISTEN.

BUT RIGHT NOW I THINK THAT EVERYBODY IS WANTING TO COME TOGETHER TO FIGURE OUT HOW WE DO THIS BETTER, AND THAT DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN THAT LAW ENFORCEMENT IN A WHOLE IS DOING THINGS WRONG, BUT THAT ALSO DOESN'T MEAN THAT WE CAN'T SIT DOWN AT A TABLE AND EDUCATE OURSELVES AND ALSO EDUCATE OTHER PEOPLE.

I THINK THAT WORD SOMETIMES TENDS TO HAVE A NEGATIVE CONNOTATION ALMOST LIKE IT'S BEING A SMART ALEC A LITTLE BIT, BUT WHEN YOU SIT DIN TOGETHER, I FIND THAT WE LEARN MORE ABOUT ONE ANOTHER AND MAYBE WE CAN HASH OUT OUR DIFFERENCES INSTEAD OF THE IN THE MEDIA OR SOCIAL MEDIA OR OUR BASES AND BRING THEM BACK TOGETHER.

>> SO CHIEF MONROE SAID THAT THE KENTUCKY ASSOCIATION OF CHIEFS OF POLICE, THEY'RE FOR REFORM.

WHERE DOES THE FRATERNAL ORDER OF POLICE COME DOWN ON REFORM?

>> I THINK REFORM IS NECESSARY.

I THINK THE FOP IS LOOKING AT IT AGAIN FROM AN EDUCATIONAL STANDPOINT.

I THINK THERE ARE THINGS WE KNOW WE CAN DO BETTER.

I THINK OVERALL WE ARE ALREADY PUTTING CHANGES IN EFFECT, AND WE WANT TO SHARE THAT WITH PEOPLE, AND OBVIOUSLIY WE INNOVATOR PAST YEAR IT'S BEEN DIFFICULT NOT JUST FOR COMMUNITIES BUT FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT AS A WHOLE.

>> I WANT TO GET TO A QUESTION, MAYBE WANT YOU TO CHIME IN AS WELL, WHEN MS. HERRON SAID POLICE OFFICERS ARE PROVIDING MORE THAN JUST PUBLIC PLEX, THAT THEY'RE SERVING AS SOCIAL WORKERS, MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONALS IN SOME INSTANCES, THAT WHAT SHOULD BE CHANGED FUNDAMENTALLY, THAT POLICE SHOULD BE IN THE BUSINESS OF PROVIDING PUBLIC PROTECTION AND NOT THESE OTHER THINGS?

>> I THINK THAT IT HEPATITIS, AND I THINK YOU'VE SEEN OTHER POLICE DEPARTMENTS, ESPECIALLY IN NORTHERN KENTUCKY, ALEXANDRIA POLICE DEPARTMENT IS ONE, THAT COMES TO MIND, ERLANGER POLICE DEPARTMENT, THEY HAVE A SOCIAL WORKER ON STAFF THAT TENDS TO HELP WITH THINGS.

AND OF COURSE COMING FROM A PROBATION PRO BACKGROUND LIKE ME, I WAS THE MENTAL HEALTH OFFICER IN LOUISVILLE.

AID LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT TRAINING.

I WAS TRAINED JUST AS EVERYBODY ELSE WAS BUT I HAD THAT SPECIALIZED TRAINING.

AND WE'RE NOT AGAINST TRAINING.

I THINK JUICE NEED TO FIGURE OUT A WAY.

WHEN YOU HEAR DEFUND POLICING, AT LEAST AMONGST THE RANKS I TALK TO, WHOEVER NAPEDDED NAMED IT THAT, I WISH THEY WOULD HAVE NAMED IT SOMETHING ELSE BECAUSE THERE'S A LOT OF THINGS IN THERE THAT I DON'T THINK LAW ENFORCEMENT WOULD BE AGAINST IF WE COULD HAVE JUST EXPLAINED IT A LITTLE MORE.

THAT DEFUND IS SUCH A NEGATIVE CONNOTATION.

>> CHIEF MONROE, DO YOU WANT TOIN CHIME IN THERE BEFORE WE GO TO MR. KATZ?

>> I BELIEVE THAT WE DO HAVE TO DO SOME KIND OF ADJUSTMENT, WHETHER IT IS SHIFTING LIKE ALEXANDRIA AND ERLANGER HAVE DONE WITH PUTTING SOCIAL WORKERS IN THE POLICE DEPARTMENT BUT MAYBE INCREASING THE TRAINING AND DOING MORE SCENARIO-BASED TRAINING FOR THESE OFFICERS WHEN THEY'RE DEALING WITH THESE TYPE OF MENTAL HEALTH PATIENTS OUT IN THE COMMUNITY.

I DON'T THINK THERE'S ENOUGH OF THAT BEING TAUGHT TO LAW ENFORCEMENT RIGHT NOW IN THIS COUNTRY.

>> SO, MR. KATZ, THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US AND JOINING US BY SKYPE.

IT'S GOOD TO HAVE YOU, SIR, WITH VENTURES -- ARNOLD VENTURES.

YOU ARE THE EXECUTIVE THEIR POLICING PORTFOLIO.

I WANT TO ASK YOU WHAT DOES THE DATA TELL US ABOUT THE NEED RAILROAD FORM.

WE KNOW THOSE HIGH PROFILE CASES, BREONNA TAYLOR, GEORGE FLOYD AND THERE'S NORSE, BUT WHAT DOES THE DATA TELL US ABOUT WHETHER COMMUNITIES OF COLOR ARE OVERPLACED AND THE AMOUNT OF CONTACT THAT THEY COME IN DISPROPORTIONATELY THAN OTHER POPULATIONS WITH POLICE?

>> YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

AND IF WE LOOK AT THE DATA IN TERMS OF USE OF FORCE OR TRAFFIC STOPS OR SEARCHES OR ARRESTS, PARTICULARLY FOR LOW LEVEL OFFENSES, WE SEE DISPARITIES ACROSS THE BOARD, AND THAT DEPENDS IF YOU LOOK AT LOCALIZED DATA OR EVEN REALLY LARGE DATA SETS, FOR EXAMPLE, A RECENT STUDY LOCATED ABOUT 100 MILLION TRAFFIC STOPS STOPS ACROSS THE COUNTRY OVER A PERIOD OF YEAR, AND I THINK WE REALLY NEED TO RECOGNIZE THAT THOSE TYPE OF DISPARITIES IS WHAT REALLY DRIVES A LOT OF THE TRUST ISSUES IN BLACK AND BROWN COMMUNITIES.

AND SO WHEN THERE IS AN INCIDENT LIKE THE BREONNA TAYLOR OR LIKE A TRAFFIC STOP IN WINDSOR, VIRGINIA WHERE A TASERED WAS USED OR OC SPRAY WAS USED ON A SECOND LIEUTENANT JUST COMING BACK HOME FROM WORK, THAT CONFERENCE FOR PEOPLE IN THOSE -- CONFIRMS FOR PEOPLE IN THOSE COMMUNITIES THAT THIS IS WHAT POLICING IS LIKE.

TYPE OF CONDUCT IS WHAT REALLY IMPACT TRUST AND THEREFORE UNDERMINES LEGITIMACY OF POLICING AND IT'S AN ACKNOWLEDGING OF WHAT THE DATA TELLS US WHERE POLICE REALLY NEED TO START RETHINKING WHAT THE RESPONSE SHOULD LOOK LIKE, RETHINK THE TRAINING, RETHINK THE POLICY, AND, OF COURSE, WE'RE DISCUSSING ONTARIO, THE ACCOUNTABILITY MAKERS.

AND I THINK PROGRESS IS BEING MADE.

IF WE LOOK, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT KENTUCKY LEGISLATOR PASSED LEGISLATION ON NO-KNOCK WARRANTS AND A DEINVESTIGATION, BOTH OF THOSE SHOW RECALL,NESS IN A BIPARTISAN MANNER.

>> SO I WANT TO GET TO THAT AND THEN WE'LL COME BACK TO YOU, KATZ, TO TALK ABOUT THE TRAINING AND THOSE PRACTICES THAT AREN'T REALLY STANDARDIZED ACROSS THE 18,000 LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES IN THE U.S., BUT LET'S GET TO NO-KNOCK WARRANTS FIRST.

LET'S START THERE, KETURAH HERRON, BECAUSE I KNOW THIS IS AN ISSUE YOU REALLY FOUGHT FOR IN LOUISVILLE AND EVEN ON THE STATE LEVEL.

ARE YOU SATISFIED WITH WHAT WAS FINALLY ADOPTED INTO LAW HERE IN KENTUCKY?

>> I MEAN, I THINK THAT WHAT WE SAW THIS PAST SESSION WAS A GOOD STEP BUT DEFINITELY NOT SATISFACTION.

THERE IS SO MUCH MORE WORK TO BE DONE.

WE DO KNOW THAT SENATE BILL 4 HAD SOME VERY GOOD PROVISIONS IN IT, HOWEVER, IT DID NOT DO A COMPLETE BAN ACROSS THE STATE.

WE ARE SEEING NOW THAT IN LEXINGTON THE COUNCIL FOLKS AND THE CITY IN LEXINGTON ARE IN THE PROCESS OF TRYING TO DO A COMPLETE BAN THERE.

BUT I THINK AT THE END OF THE DAY IT GOES BACK TO THE ACCOUNTABILITY PIECE, IS THAT STILL WE CAN DO ALL OF THESE DIFFERENT REFORMS, BUT WHAT HAPPENS WHEN POLICE STILL DO THAT?

HOW ARE THEY HELD ACCOUNTABLE AND RESPONSIBLE?

AND SO -- AND THAT PIECE OF LEGISLATION, WE DID NOT SEE THAT, PER SE.

THERE WAS A PIECE THAT SAID THAT THE EVIDENCE WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO BE USED AGAINST SOMEONE.

BUT AS FAR AS HARD ACCOUNTABILITY AGAINST THAT INDIVIDUAL AND THE DEPARTMENT AS A WHOLE, WE STILL HAVE NOT SEEN THAT IN KENTUCKY.

>> SO I WANT TO GO TO THIS SIDE.

WE HAVE KIEV MON ROAR RYAN STRAW FOR YOU ALL TO CHIME IN ON THAT TO GIVE PEOPLE A QUICK READER'S DIGEST IN KENTUCKY, STATE NO KNOCKS WOULD BE WHERE A COURT FIND CLEAR AND CONVINCING EVIDENCE THAT AN ALLEGED CRIME IS VIOLENT, GIVING PRIOR NOTICE WOULD ENDANGER LIVES AND LEAD DESTRUCTION OF THE EVIDENCE IN THE ALLEGED CRIME ONLY CARRIED OUT BETWEEN 6:00 AMOUNT OF AND 10:00 P.M.

IT'S NOT FLAMED FOR BREONNA TAYLOR, AND THAT WILL BE A DISCUSSION POINT THAT WAS A DISCUSSION POINT.

L. MAYBE WE CAN GET INTO, AND ALLOWS POLICE IN COUNTIES WITH FEWER THAN 90,000 RESIDENTS TO SKIP THE SWAT PROVISION IF THOSE OFFICERS NOT AVAILABLE IN A TIMELY MANNER.

ONE OF THE COMPROMISE PROVISIONS OF THE ALLOWED FOR ANE TO BE NOTIFIED WHEN THESE WARRANTS ARE BEING -- AN EM TO BE TO BE NOTIFIED WHEN NIECE WARRANTS ARE EXECUTED.

THAT'S A RUNDOWN TO THE POINT KETURAH HERRON WAS SAYING THE ACCOUNTABILITY MEASURE IS MISSING FROM SB 4.

YOU SAY WHAT?

>> I SAY THAT WE WERE WERE HAPPY TO WORK WITH PRESIDENT STRIVERS EVER STIVERS ON THAT, AND WE WERE PLEASED WITH PART OF IT.

WE DON'T THINK IT WENT FAR ENOUGH.

FOR US, WE DIDN'T WANT TO LOSE THE TOOL, AND I THINK WITH MS. TAYLOR'S DEATH IT WAS ABSOLUTELY PUT INTO THE SPOTLIGHT, AND THE STATISTICS SHOW THE NUMBER OF NO-KNOCK WARRANTS THAT ARE ISSUED IN KENTUCKY ARE SO FEW AND FAR BETWEEN, BUT WE NEEDED TO HAVE THAT TOOL.

I THINK SOME OF THE PROVISIONS THAT WERE PUT IN WERE IMPORTANT AND I DON'T THINK ANY OF US HAD ANY OBJECTION TO THAT, BUT WE JUST DIDN'T WANT TO LOSE THE TOOL FOR THE SAFETY OF THE COMMUNITY.

>> SO PROFESSOR KRASKA, I KNOW THIS IS AN ISSUE THAT YOU'VE BEEN VERY INVOLVED IN AND YOU ACTUALLY WORKED WITH REPRESENTATIVE ATTICA SCOTT WHO HAD AN OPPOSITE PIECE -- I SHOULDN'T SAY OPPOSITE -- BUT OF A DIFFERENT PIECE OF LEGISLATION TO ADDRESS BARONA LAW.

>> I THINK WHAT ATTICA RECOGNIZED IS THAT YOU'RE RIGHT, NO-KNOCK WARRANTS RARE.

HERE'S THE THING.

NO KNOCK RAISED AREN'T.

MOST KNOW OCTOBER RAIDS ARE DONE WITHOUT A KNOW KNOCK WARRANT.

IN OTHER WORDS, THE POLICE GET -- NO KNOCK WARRANT.

IN OTHER WORDS, POLICE GET A STANDARD SEARCH WARRANT AND THEY SHOW UP.

THEY CLAIM EXIGENT CIRCUMSTANCES, AND THEY DO A NO KNOCK RAID.

THAT'S COMMONPLACE.

THAT WAS THE MAIN PROBLEM IN LOUISVILLE.

THERE WEREN'T THAT MANY ACTUAL NO-KNOCK WARRANTS BEING ISSUED IN LOUISVILLE.

BUT AS ONE PIECE OF RESEARCH SHOWED, 421 OUT OF 421 REGULAR SEARCH WARRANTS WERE CONDUCTED AS A NO KNOCK RAID.

THEY JUST DIDN'T HAVE THE LABEL NO KNOCK ON THEM.

SO ATTICA SCOTT'S LEGISLATION HAD EMBEDDED IN IT SEARCH WARRANT REFORM IN GENERAL.

WE COULD BAN NO-KNOCK WARRANTS TOMORROW ACROSS THE BOARD NATIONALLY.

IT'S NOT GOING TO IMPACT AT THAT GREAT OF A LEVEL THE NO KNOCK -- THE PROBLEM OF POLICE USING TACTICAL TEAMS TO RAID PEOPLE'S HOMES IN THE MIL OF THE NIGHT.

IT WON'T STOP THAT.

>> CHIEF MONROE?

>> SURE.

WHAT I WOULD SAY ON THAT WITH DR. KRASKA'S POINT IS THAT GOES BACK TO WHAT I SAID EARLIER IN THE SHOW, ACCOUNTABILITY.

WE HAVE TO HOLD OURSELVES ACCOUNTABLE, AND THAT'S STARTS AT THE TOP OF THAT ORGANIZATION WITH LEADERSHIP.

AND THEY HAVE TO BE THE ONES THAT -- IN SENATE BILL 4, THEY'RE THE ONES THAT SHOULD BE LOOKING AT THAT SEARCH WARRANT BEFORE -- >> MR. KATZ, I WANT TO COME TO YOU BECAUSE I WE KNOW THAT NO-KNOCK WARRANTS IS BEFORE THE PART OF THE CONSIDERATIONS AND TALKS HAPPENING NOW IN WASHINGTON ABOUT HOW TO BAN THEM, WHETHER TO BAN THEM, PERHAPS EVEN WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES THEY WOULD BE BANNED.

SO YOUR PREPPING PERSPECTIVE ON NO-KNOCK WARRANTS, AND PROPHECY KRASKA SAYING IT MAY NOT DO WHAT ITS INTENDED PURPOSE WOULD BE TO DO.

>> WELL, I HAD A LONG CAREER BEFORE I JOINED VENTURES IN POLICE OVERSIGHT WELLS A PUBLIC DEFENDER FOR MANY YEARS, AND I SPENT TIME IN COURTROOMS, HOURS OVER 15 YEARS, AND SOMETIMES YOU'D SEE INVESTIGATORS WALK IN WITH A SEARCH WARRANT AND SEE A JUDGE, BASICALLY LEAF THROUGH IT, HAVE CASUAL CHATS WITH THE DETECTIVE AND SIGN AND IT THE DETECTIVES ARE ON THEIR WAY.

SO IF THERE IS AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE SEARCH WARRANTS TREATED AS SOMETHING THAT IS CASUAL, WHERE AT THE EXCEPTION, LET'S JUICE NO KNOCK BECAUSE OF AN KITCHEN ENT CIRCUMSTANCE, THAT EXCEPTION FOLLOWS THE RULE, SO TO SPEAK, THEN WE WON'T HAVE REALLY MEANINGFUL LEGISLATION.

SO, YES, BEYOND NO-KNOCK WARRANTS THERE IS THE QUESTION OF HOW EASY IT IS TO GET A SEARCH WARRANT AND HOW SHOULD SEARCH WARRANTS BE REGULATED, AND WHEN THERE IS A SEARCH WARRANT POLICY IN TERMS OF HOW THEY SHOULD BE CARRIED OUT, HOW WILL THE OFFICERS BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE IF THAT'S VIOLATE THAT POLICY?

SO ANY TIME YOU HAVE AN ISSUE LIKE THIS, YOU ALWAYS HAVE TO THINK ABOUT THE SECONDARY FEDEX OF IT.

>> IS WHAT'S BEING CONSIDERED AND BEING TALKED ABOUT WITH REPRESENTATIVE KAREN BASS, SENATOR CORY BOOK WESH SENATOR TIM SCOTT, THEY ADDRESSING SEARCH WARRANTS ALTOGETHER?

>> I THINK THAT THE PRIMARY FOCUS IS ON NO-KNOCK WARRANTS, BUT I'M NOT IN THE ROOM, SO THE FINE DETAILS ON THAT PARTICULAR ISSUE I'M NOTE AWARE OF.

>> SURE.

MR.

STRAW.

>> NO, AND AGAIN I DON'T NECESSARILY DISAGREE WITH DR. CRESS KÀ.

I JUST THINK THAT IF THERE WERE NO KNOCK I RAIDS HAPPENING AND STUFF, I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WE NEED TO ADDRESS BECAUSE THAT'S AGAINST POLICY.

CLEARLY IT WAS ISSUED A WARRANT LIKE THAT.

TO MS. TAYLOR'S CASE AGAIN, I THINK FACTS MATTER ON IT.

I DON'T KNOW THAT IT CHANGES THIS OUTCOME NECESSARILY BUT IT WAS ISSUED A NO KNOCK WARRANT.

IT WAS SERVED THAT WAY.

WE HAVE DIFFERENT SIDES SAYING DIFFERENT THINGS.

I TEND TO TAKE MR. WALKER'S WORD FOR IT, THAT IT WAS -- THAT THEY ANNOUNCED THEMSELVES.

EITHER WAY, PARSING THAT OUT DOESN'T CHANGE THE OUTCOME, BUT I THINK THAT THERE'S STILL A LOT THAT WE CAN DO WITH THAT THOUGH.

>> CHIEF MONROE.

>> I THINK FOLLOWING UP ON THAT, I THINK ATTORNEY GENERAL DANIEL CAMERON HAS STARTED A SEARCH WATER.

TASK FORCE TO REALLY TAKE A DEEP LOOK AT WHAT WE'RE DOING IN KENTUCKY.

AND BY DOING THAT WE'RE GOING TO BE BE A TO LOOK AND SEE IF WE CAN MAKE KENTUCKY A BEST MODEL PRACTICE FOR SEARCH WARRANTS, NOT JUST REGULAR SEARCH WARRANTS BUT IF THERE WAS A NO KNOCK GRANTED, IS IT MEETING THAT HIGH CRITERIA BECAUSE, LIKE DR. KRASKA SAID, IT NEEDS TO BE AT THAT HIGH LEVEL.

IT HAS TO BE IN THAT CIRCUMSTANCE.

I THINK BY BRINGING THE COMMUNITY TOGETHER WITH WHAT GENERAL CAMERON IS DOING BY HAVING THE BROAD REPRESENTATION OF THESE DIFFERENT AREAS I THINK IS A GOOD STEP IN HELPING THAT.

>> ARE YOU TRUSTING OF THAT PROCESS, KETURAH HERRON, THIS ATTORNEY GENERAL'S TASK FORCE ON SEARCH WARRANTS?

>> I THINK AS AN ADVOCATE AND A COMMUNITY MEMBER, I WOULD HOPE SOMETHING MEANINGFUL WOULD COME OUT OF IT, HOWEVER, I DON'T HAVE FROM US IN THE AG'S OFFICE TO DO THAT, AND SO I AM -- I DO KNOW SOME FOLKS WHO WERE ON THE TASK FORCE, AND SO I DO LOOK FORWARD TO HEARING THEIR PERSPECTIVE ON THAT, BUT I AM VERY HESITANT ABOUT THE AG'S OFFICE HOLDING THAT TASK FORCE.

>> PROFESSOR KRASKA, DO YOU HAVE ANYTHING YOU WANT TO ADD ON THAT?

AND THEN I WANT TO GO TO DESERTION.

>> I WOULD JUST SAY THAT THE WORLD RIGHT NOW IN THE UNITED STATES IS JUST FULL OF POLITICS.

THERE ARE SO MANY DIFFERENT THINGS GOING ON AND SO MUCH RHETORIC ABOUT THIS AND THAT.

AND IT'S ALL POLITICIANS, EVEN THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION SAID THEY WERE GOING TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE 1033 PROGRAM AND IT WAS ALL WINDOW DRESSING.

AND SO WE HAVE TO HAVE EYES ON THESE THINGS AND WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THEM CRITICALLY, AND WE CAN'T SCARED TO SAY, NO, YOU GOT THAT WRONG.

THERE ARE SO MANY LOOPHOLES, THERE ARE SO MANY, AS YOUR OTHER GUEST SAID, THERE ARE SO MANY WAYS FOR UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES TO CREEP IN, AND THAT'S WHY YOU'VE GOT TO BRING IN PEOPLE THAT REALLY GET THIS STUFF.

>> WE WANT TO GO TO THE 1033 PROGRAM.

INFORM OUR VIEWERS WHAT IS THAT.

I WANT TO GET TO THE DESERTION PASS THAT WAS PASSED.

THIS IS TO ADDRESS THE BAD ACTORS IN POLICING.

>> SURE.

THIS SENATE BILL 80 THAT WAS PASSED THIS RECENT SESSION IS SOMETHING THAT OUR ASSOCIATION WORKED VERY STRONGLY TO GET, AND THAT WAS DESERTION OF BAD POLICE OFFICERS.

NOBODY HATES A BAD POLICE OFFICER MORE THAN A GOOD POLICE OFFICER.

AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WE REALLY WANT TO GET RID OF IN KENTUCKY.

SO THIS BILL REALLY STRENGTHED THE ABILITY FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT EXECUTIVES TO PUSH FOR DESERTION OF THOSE OFFICERS TO KEEP THEM FROM RESIGNING AND GOING TO ANOTHER AGENCY.

THAT HAPPENS WAY TOO MUCH IN THIS COUNTRY.

>> SO DOES THAT GET THE LEVEL OF ACCOUNTABILITY THAT YOU THINK KETURAH HERRON IS A GOOD FIRST STEP?

>> I MEAN, I THINK THAT IT'S A START, BUT I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE ISSUES IS THAT WHAT ARE THE OTHER POLICIES THAT WE HAVE THAT ARE INFORMING THE WAY THAT WE ARE POLICING COMMUNITIES.

I WAS TALKING TO A FRIEND LAST WEEK AND WE WERE TALKING ABOUT WHAT'S THE PERFECT MODEL OF HOW POLICE SHOULD BE POLICING COMMUNITIES, AND YOU GO TO THE SUBURBS.

YOU SEE THAT PERFECTLY.

AND SO YOU SEE POLICE NOT ON EVERY CORNER.

SIGH COMMUNITIES HAVING THE THINGS THAT THEY NEED.

AND SO I THINK THAT WE HAVE TO HAVE REFORMS SUCH AS THE DESERTION, BUT WE ALSO HAVE TO LOOK AT THE POLICIES THAT HAVE INFORMED POLICING.

WE CAN GO BACK TO THE WAR ON DRUGS AND DIFFERENT THINGS LIKE THAT, AND SO IT'S A BOTH AND.

IT'S NOT JUST A ONE ANSWER.

WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THE WHOLE SYSTEM.

>> RYAN, YOU HAVE SOMETHING YOU WANT TO ADD.

>> SURE.

I JUST WANT TO SAY IT'S ONE OF THE -- ONE OF THE TIMES THE FOP TEND TO WORK WITH THE CHIEFS ASSOCIATION, THE SHERIFFS ASSOCIATION BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, HAS A LABOR GROUP, SOMETIMES PEOPLE DON'T LOOK AT US THAT WAY, BUT AS A LABOR GROUP WE ADVOCATE FOR POLICE, BUT WE FOUGHT THOUGHT THE DESERTION BILL WAS IMPORTANT.

WE WORKED WITH SENATOR CARROLL ON THAT.

WE DON'T WANT BAD ACTORS OUT THERE.

WE WANT DUE PROCESS.

THAT WAS THE BIG WORD.

I TESTIFIED ON THE BILL IN COMMITTEE.

AS LONG AS DUE PROCESS WAS AFFORDED, IT WAS GOING THROUGH KLEC WE FELT COMFORTABLE WITH THAT.

IF YOU'RE CHARGED WITH A CRIME, YOU GET DUE PROCESS.

WE JUST WANTED THAT FOR POLICE OFFICERS TOO.

WE RECOGNIZE HIKE THE CHIEF SAID, THEY WERE GOING TO DIFFERENT DEPARTMENTS AMIDST INVESTIGATIONS AND WE DON'T WANT TO SEE THAT.

THAT JUST POLLUTES ONE DEPARTMENT WITH ANOTHER DEPARTMENT'S ISSUES.

>> MR. KATZ, ASK YOU TO WEIGH IN HERE, SIR.

>> YES.

DESERTION IS A REALLY IMPORTANT ISSUE, AND KENTUCKY OUGHT TO BE -- DESERTION.

AND KENTUCKY OUGHT TO BE COMMEND ODD WORKING ON DESERTCATION THAT I WAY THAT ACHIEVED A LOT OF THE COALS.

DESERTIFICATION ACHIEVES IN 46 OF THE 50 STATES ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

VERY OFTEN IT'S RESTRICTED JUST TO WHEN AN OFFICER IS CONVICTED OF A FELONY.

IT DOES NOT COVER THAT REALLY IMPORTANT ISSUE OF WHAT HAPPENS WHEN A SERIOUS CASE IS PENDING AGAINST AN OFFICER.

AND RATHER SEEING IT THROUGH THE ENTIRE DISCIPLINARY PROCESS, THE OFFICER JUST SIMPLY RESIGNS WHILE THE CASE IS PENDING AND THEN SHOWS UP AT A DIFFERENT DEPARTMENT WHERE HE COULD BE INVOLVED IN MORE MISCONDUCT AGAIN.

SO THE FACT THAT THOSE TYPE OF ISSUES WERE ADDRESSED BY THE LEGISLATURE IS REALLY IMPORTANT, AND ACTUALLY I WISH THAT OTHER STATE LEGISLATURE WOULD GO DOWN THE SAME PATH.

>> MR. KATZ, I WANT TO ASK YOU A QUESTION.

THERE I WAS RECENT PIECE THAT ASKED THIS QUESTION.

WHEN IF POLICE REFORM ADVOCATES OR WHAT CAN THEY LEARN FROM EDUCATION REFORM EFFORTS.

FOR THOSE WHO ARE FIGHTING FOR THE SAME THINGS ABOUT ACCOUNTABILITY, TRANSPARENCIY, TRAINING, COMMUNITY ENGAGEMENT AND EQUITY, WHAT ARE THE PARALLELS THAT THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM, POLICING INSTITUTION CAN LEARN YOU FROM HOW EDUCATION REFORM WAS BEEN DONE IN THIS COUNTRY?

>> I THINK THERE'S WANT YOU BIG TAKEAWAY, AND THAT IS AN EDUCATION REFORM MOVEMENT WHAT OCCURRED IS EK THE COMMUNITY WAS BROUGHT INTO THE CONVERSATION, IN OTHER WORDS, THE COMMUNITY WAS EMPOWERED, AND I DON'T WANT TO GET INTO THE SCHOOL CHOICE CONVERSATION TOO DEEPLY BUT SCHOOL CHOICE WAS AND IS ABOUT PARENTAL EMPOWERMENT.

MEMBERS OF COMMUNITIES WHICH HAVE BEEN IMPACTED BY POVERTY, BY RACIAL DISCRIMINATION, BY UNFAIR POLICING, THEY WANT TO BE HEARD, AND THEY DON'T ONLY WANT TO BE HEARD BUT THEY WANT TO BE IN THE ROOM AND HAVE A SAY IN HOW THEY ARE POLICED.

AND I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE BIG THINGS THAT POLICING AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE IN GENERAL COULD LEARN FROM THE EDUCATION SPACE.

>> AND ONE OF THE OTHER COMMONALITIES IS THE IMPACT OF THE UNIONS, RIGHT?

AND SO I WANT TO GET TO THE POINT ABOUT COLLECTIVE BARGAINING AND HOW THAT COMPLICATES MOVEMENTS TOWARD REAL TRANSFORMATIVE POLICE REFORM, RYAN STRAW.

>> I THINK THAT SOME OF OUR BIGGEST GROUPS THAT HAVE COLLECTIVE BARGAINING, JUST SPEAKING OF LOUISVILLE, FOR EXAMPLE, KNOWING THE LEADERSHIP TEAM THERE THAT SITS DOWN WITH THE MAYOR, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT, YOU KNOW, YOU HEAR A LOT OF PEOPLE, WE WANT THE ABILITY TO HAVE THE PUBLIC BE ABLE TO BE A A PART OF THOSE CONVERSATIONS.

I THINK TO AN EXTENT, GIVEN THE DIFFICULT NATURE OF WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT, THE PUBLIC MAY END UP CAUSING MORE OF A REACTION FOR BOTH SIDES, AND SO I THINK THAT THE LABOR UNIONS, ESPECIALLY THE ONE IN LOUISVILLE, I KNOW LEXINGTON IS THE SAME WAY, THEY WANT TO DO THE RIGHT THING.

THEY WANT TO BE ABLE TO TALK ABOUT STUFF.

THEY WANT TO DEFEND OUR OFFICERS.

WE BELIEVE THAT IN SOME OF THESE COMMUNITIES THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WHERE LAW ENFORCEMENT TENDS TO BE MAYBE NEGATIVELY VIEWED, THAT THERE'S A LOT OF GOOD THAT'S BEING DONE DOWN THERE, AND WE DON'T WANT TO TAKE AWAY OFFICERS THAT ARE WILLING TO SERVE FOR THE LOW PAY THAT WE HAVE, THE POOR RETIREMENT THAT WE HAVE.

WE WANT TO KEEP THOSE PEOPLE INVOLVED IN THAT THAT HAVE A HEART FOR SERVICE, HAVE A HEART FOR COMMUNITY.

WOULDN'T TO PROTECT THEM, AND WE WANT TO OFFER THE BEST WAY FORWARD IN OUR CONTRACTS.

>> PROFESSOR KRASKA, CAN YOU GET TO THAT POINT ABOUT HOW COLLECTIVE BARGAINING COULD BE AN IMPEDIMENT TO POLICE REFORM THAT YOU BELIEVE WOULD BE PRODUCTIVE.

>> YEAH, I SEAS YOU WOULD ASK IF YOU ASK 25 EXPERTS, POLICE INCLUDED, OF WHAT ONE OF THE MAJOR BARRIERS TO POLICE REFORM IS, THEY WOULD SAY POLICE UNIONS AND THE WAYS -- THE WAY IN WHICH THE CONTRACTS ARE WRITTEN UP.

AND IT JUST MAKES IT VERY DIFFICULT FOR SOME POLICE ADMINISTRATORS TO ACTUALLY ENFORCE ANY REAL ACCOUNTABILITY, AND THEY TEND TO BE A REGRESSIVE LOBBYING GROUP.

WHETHER -- I DON'T REALLY KNOW ALL THE INS AND OUT OF WHY THAT HAS COME ABOUT, BUT THEY HAVE BEEN PRETTY INTENSE IN THEIR OPPOSITION TO ALL KIND OF DIFFERENT CHANGES AND REFORMS, AND IT'S BEEN A TOUGH FORCE TO RECKON WITH FOR THOSE PEOPLE THAT WANT TO REIMAGINE, RETRACT POLICE IN SOME AREAS, WHATEVER YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

IT'S MET WITH A LOT OF INTENSITY.

>> WHEN YOU HEAR THE LEX GONE "DEFUND THE POLICE," DOES THAT MEAN TAKE POLICE TOTALLY OUT OF THE EQUATION OR DOES THAT MEAN A REALLOCATION OF RESOURCES TO OTHER AREAS IN SOCIAL SERVICES THAT COULD HELP WITH MENTAL HEALTH, HOMELESSNESS, THOSE TYPES OF ISSUES?

>> YEAH, I'VE THOUGHT A LOT ABOUT THIS AND I'VE TWEETED QUITE A BIT ABOUT THE NOTION OF DEFUND, BUT REAL QUICKLY, THE POLICE HAVE BEEN ASKED TO DO A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT, PARTICULARLY OVER THE LAST 35, 40 YEARS.

THERE HAVE BEEN SO MANY SOCIAL -- SO MANY SOCIAL PROBLEMS HAVE BEEN THROWN IN THEIR LAPS.

I REMEMBER TALKING TO CHIEFS OF POLICE 25, 30 YEARS AGO THAT DIDN'T WANT THIS STUFF.

THEY DIDN'T WANT TO BE IN SCHOOLS.

THEY DIDN'T WANT TO HANDLE MENTAL HEALTH PROBLEMS.

AND YET THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WOULD COME UP WITH A NEW GRANT PROGRAM AND ENTICE THEM INTO IT, AND BEFORE THEY KNEW IT THEY HAD 12 NEW OFFICERS TO GO INTO SCHOOLS.

SO I LIKE TO THINK OF IT NOT AS DEFUND BUT GET POLICE OUT OF THOSE THINGS THAT THEY JUST DON'T TEND TO DO WELL.

THEY'RE NOT GOOD SECURITY OFFICERS IN SCHOOLS GENERALLY.

WE HAVE THE RESEARCH ON THAT.

WE'VE GOT GOOD DATA ON HOW POLICE PRESENCE AND THE WAYS IN WHICH THEY ARREST KIDS AND ENFORCE CERTAIN RULES AND REGULATIONS, IT'S PRETTY MUCH A MESS NATIONALLY.

THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THERE AREN'T SOME OFFICERS IN SCHOOLS THAT DO IT WELL.

SO GET THEM OUT OF THE DRUG WAR, TRAFFIC STOPS, THE SCHOOLS, MENTAL HEALTH.

THERE'S ALL KIND OF THINGS.

WHETHER YOU DEFUND THEM, I COULD CARE LESS.

I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THEM GO BACK TO DOING SOME OF THE THINGS THEY REALLY SHOULD BE DOING, RETRACT THEM FROM SOME OF THE AREAS THAT THEY SHOULDN'T BE.

YOU COULD DEFUND POLICE DEPARTMENTS, AND IT'S NOT GOING TO REFORM THEM.

IN FACT, IT MIGHT MAKE THINGS WORSE.

IT MIGHT MAKE THEM EVEN MORE -- APPROACH THE COMMUNITY IN A MORE ANTAGONISTIC WAY THAN THEY ARE RIGHT NOW IN SOME AREAS.

>> CHIEF MONROE, I WANT YOU TO FOLLOW UP ON PROFESSOR KRASKA'S POINTS THERE.

>> I WOULD AGREE WITH DR. KRASKA THAT I THINK WE NEED TO LOOK AT A DEEP DIVE IN WHAT WE'RE DOING IN LAW ENFORCEMENT, AND ARE THERE AREAS THAT WE NEED TO SHIFT OUT OF AND MAYBE GIVE THEM BACK TO SOMEBODY ELSE TO DO THAT RESPONSIBILITY.

I AGREE WITH HIM ON THE FACT THAT I THINK WE HAVE TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT USING THAT WORD "DEFUNDING" BECAUSE DEFUNDING COULD SERIOUSLY HAVE A NEGATIVE REPERCUSSION.

>> SO GETTING TO THE POINT, AND WE'LL TALK ABOUT QUALIFIED IMMUNITY, THROUGHOUT BUT THERE IS A CONCERN THAT PEOPLE HAVE THAT OF THE 18,000 LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES ACROSS THE U.S., THERE ARE NO SET STANDARDS FOR POLICE PRACTICES AND TRAINING.

SHOULD THERE BE?

>> YES.

>> YES.

>> YES.

>> SURE.

>> YEAH.

SO WHY ISN'T THAT HAPPENING?

WHY HESITANCY THAT HAPPENED?

IF THERE IS CONSENSUS THAT IT SHOULD?

>> I THINK KENTUCKY BEING MY EXPERIENCE, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE AN UNBELIEVABLE TRAINING SYSTEM.

I MEAN, OUR ACADEMY IS WORLD RENOWNED.

OUR POLICE OFFICERS ARE SOME OF THE BEST TRAINED IN THE COUNTRY.

THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT WE DON'T HAVE SOME THAT SLIP THROUGH THE CRACKS.

BUT I THINK THAT LAW ENFORCEMENT AGAIN IS OPEN TO TRAINING.

WE'RE OPEN TO TALKING ABOUT IT.

THE SOCIAL WORKERS THAT WE MENTIONED FROM SPRAYER JUST DEPARTMENTS, THEY DO PLAY A GREAT ROLE AND THEY'VE SEEN, THE RESEARCH HAS SHOWN THEY HAVE SEEN A TREMENDOUS UPTICK IN POSITIVITY WITH THEIR POLICE DEPARTMENTS BECAUSE THESE PEOPLE ARE GOING OUT AND THEY'RE HELPING, BUT THEN YOU ALSO HAVE ON THE FLIP SIDE OF THAT HOW DO WE MAKE SURE THAT THEY'RE SAFE WHEN THEY'RE GOING OUT TO THINGS.

SO MANY OF THE ISSUES THAT LAW ENFORCEMENT WALK INTO THAT MAYBE THEY'RE NOT NECESSARILY THE BEST EQUIPPED TO TRAIN OR BEST EQUIPPED TO DO IS THEY END UP GOING INTO A SITUATION THAT STARTS AS A POLICE MATTER AND THEN ENDS UP A EITHER A MENTAL HEALTH ISSUE OR A DOMESTIC, A CHILD ISSUE, AND THAT'S WHERE I THINK WE HAVE TO FUND THE POLICE DEPARTMENTS BETTER TO HAVE THOSE PEOPLE ON STAFF BUT ALSO OFFER THE TRAINING FOR THE LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS THAT ARE THERE.

>> MR. KATZ, I WANT TO ASK THAT QUESTION TO YOU.

THERE SEEMS TO BE A REAL VACUUM WHEN IT COMES TO STANDARDIZATION OF THESE POLICE PRACTICES AND TRAINING.

SHOULD THERE BE SOME UNIVERSAL MEASURES THAT ARE ACROSS THE BOARD, SO 18,000 LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES ARE DOING THINGS ALL THE SAME IN UNIFORMITY?

>> WELL, THAT'S THE CHALLENGE, THAT IS THERE'S 18,000 POLICE DEPARTMENTS IN THE UNITED STATES.

I THINK THERE ARE ABOUT 400 AGENCIES IN THE STATE OF KENTUCKY.

IT'S VERY FRAGMENTED HERE IN THE UNITED STATES.

VERY UNLIKE OTHER CRUST, FOR EXAMPLE, IN WESTERN EUROPE WHERE IN SCANDINAVIA FOR OR THE UNITED KINGDOM ESSENTIALLY YOU HAVE A NATIONALIZED POLICE FORCE.

WE LIKE OUR LOCAL AGENCIES.

I THINK MAYOR AND IS CITY COUNCILS LIKE TO HAVE THEIR OWN YOU POLICE DEPARTMENT.

THEY HE TELLFIELD A SENSE OF OWNERSHIP OVER THEM.

THAT'S UNDERSTANDABLE.

BUT THAT BRINGS WITH IT A SET OF CHALLENGES THAT MAKES CHANGE EXTRAORDINARILY DIFFICULT.

AS THERE IS MORE RESEARCH ON WHAT IS EFFECT OF DEESCALATION TRAINING, FOR EXAMPLE, DE-ESCALATE A VOLATILE SITUATION, YOU THEN TO HAVE FIND A WAY TO TRAIN EVERY PATROL OFFICER IN EVERY DEPARTMENT ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

AND WHEN WE HAVE A SITUATION WHERE ABOUT HALF OR MORE THAN HALF THE POLICE DEPARTMENTS IN THE NIDE HAVE LESS THAN 50 OFFICERS -- UNITED STATES HAVE LESS THAN 50 OFFICERS, ABOUT 25% OF DEPARTMENTS HAVE FEWER THAN TEN OFFICERS, WHERE ARE THEY GOING TO FIND THE TIME AND THE RESOURCES AND THE FINANCIAL RESOURCES TO DO THAT TRAINING FOR THEIR OFFICERS?

IT'S REALLY HARD.

WE REALLY NEED TO THINK MORE ABOUT IS THIS A WAY TO REGIONALIZED TRAINING?

IS THERE A POSSIBILITY TO CONSOLIDATE SOME OF THESE FRAGMENT DEMENTS SO WE HAVE MORE UNIFIED POLICY AND TRAINING AND FUNDING FOR POLICE DEPARTMENTS.

>> YOU MENTIONED EARLIER, MR. KATZ, ABOUT TRAFFIC STOPS, AND I WANT YOU TO KIND OF GO INTO THAT IN MORE DATA.

WE KNOW THERE ARE 13 STATES THAT CONSIDER TRAFFIC VIOLATIONS MISDEMEANOR CRIMES.

IT WAS THE AT THAT TIME STATUS OF THE REST OF THE STATES IN THE UNION WHEN IT COMES TO THIS?

>> IT'S A PATCHWORK.

IN SOME STATES OFFICERS HAVE VERY LITTLE DISCRETION ON THOSE TYPES OF TRAFFIC CRIMES AND THEY ACTUALLY HAVE TO MAKE AN ARREST.

IN OTHER STATES THEY ARE TAKING A FORWARD THINKING APPROACH TO THINK ABOUT WHAT KIND OF STOPS SHOULD POLICING DOING AND WHAT NOT SHOULD THEY BE DOING?

SO SHOULD THEY BE STOPPING SOMEBODY BECAUSE THEY HAVE A PINE TREE AIR FRESHENER HANG DOWN FROM THEIR MIRROR?

NOT EVERYBODY IS STOP STOPPED FOR THAT.

JUST SOME PEOPLE ARE STOPPED FOR THAT.

STOW THE STATE OF VIRGINIA RECENT ENACTED LITTLE LEAGUES WEB 93 THE LAST YEAR, RESTRICTED THINGS WHICH THEY CALL SECONDARY TRAFFIC VIOLATIONS OR SECONDARY VEHICLE VIOLATIONS FOR WHICH AN OFFICER COULD STOP.

THEY CAN'T STOP SOMEBODY JUST BECAUSE THEY HAVE A BULLABLE OUT ON THE TAILLIGHT OR STOP SOMEBODY BECAUSE THEY HAVE AN AIR FRESHENER HANGING FROM THEIR MIRROR.

SO THINKING THROUGH WHAT ACTUALLY CONTRIBUTES TO PUBLIC SAFETY, WHAT ACTUALLY CONTRIBUTES TO TRAFFIC SAFETY, SO IF AN OFFICER IS TAKING HIS TIME TO WRITE SOMEBODY A CITATION BECAUSE THEY HAVE A LAMP WHICH IS OUT AND SOMEBODY BLASTS DOWN THE FREEWAY AT 85 MILES PER HOUR, WHAT'S THE BIGGER SAFETY THREAT?

AND THOSE ARE THE KIND OF CHOICES WE HAVE TO BE THINKING ABOUT.

>> WE LETTERS KNOW THAT THIS IS A BIG SOURCE OF REVENUE, OF COURSE, FOR POLICE DEPARTMENTS, RIGHT?

TRAFFIC STOPS.

RYAN STRAW, YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT REEVALUATING TYPES OF STOPS POLICE SHOULD BE MAKING SO THEY DON'T FINDS THEMSELVES IN AIANCY ACCUMULATED SITUATION?

>> I THINK THIS IS GOES BACK TO EDUCATING FOLKS ON WHAT THE IMPORTANCE OF THESE TRAFFIC STOPS ARE.

YOU DO SEE THE THINGS, I THINK THAT WAS IN MINNESOTA RIGHT AFTER I THINK THE VERDICT WAS GETTING READY TO COME DOWN OR WHERE THAT YOUNG MAN WAS SHOT AND KILLED, AND I THINK HE WAS STOPPED FOR THE AIR FRESHENER ON THERE BE BUT WE REMEMBER THAT A TRAFFIC STOP BEFORE THE OKLAHOMA CITY BOMBING, THAT'S HOW BEE GOT TERRY MCVEY.

IT WAS SOMETHING SIMILAR TIE BULLABLE OUT, I THINK.

THERE'S SOME IMPORTANCE TO THAT, AND AGAIN THAT GOES BACK ALSO TO TRAINING.

LAW ENFORCEMENT AREN'T TRAINED TO STOP PEOPLE BASED ON AN AIR FRESHENER ON A MIRROR.

THERE HAS TO BE A BIGGER REASON, AND IF OFFICERS ARE STOPPING PEOPLE FOR THAT, THEY'RE NOT DOING WHAT THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE DOING, AND I THINK THAT THERE'S ANY LAW ENFORCEMENT GROUP THAT'S GOING TO DEFEND THAT, WE NEED TO REMEMBER OUR TRAINING, WE NEED TO REMEMBER WHAT WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE DOING, AND THAT'S WHERE YOU SEE THESE STOPS AND OTHER ACTIONS THAT POLICE TAKE WHERE IT'S BENEFICIAL.

AND AGAIN, THAT EDUCATION SITTING AT THE TABLE TALKING ABOUT THAT, MAYBE THAT HELPS THE CONVERSATION.

IT HELPS US LEARN WHAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE THINKING THAT WE'RE DOING.

>> PROFESSOR KRASKA.

>> WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT THIS WHOLE TRAFFIC STOP THING IS A LOT MORE THAN JUST STOPPING PEOPLE FOR TRAFFIC VIOLATIONS.

THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND SOME ACADEMICS HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT AND TEACHING PEOPLE, TEACHING THE POLICE TO PROACTIVELY STOP PEOPLE TO INVESTIGATE FOR CRIMINALITY.

THESE ARE NOT STOPS JUST TO SEE IF THE PERSON IS FOLLOWING THE LAW, TRAFFIC LAWS.

THEY'RE DESIGNED SPECIFICALLY IN AN AGGRESSIVE PROACTIVE WAY TO SEARCH PEOPLE, TO FIGURE ON IT IF THEY HAVE DRUGS.

MUCH OF THIS IS DUNNED THE AUSPICES OF THE DRUG WAR.

AND IT'S ALL UNDER THIS NOTION OF BROKEN WINDOWS, LOW ORDER CRIMES, AND GET OUT THERE AND BE AGGRESSIVE.

I KNOW ONE LITTLE TOWN IN KENTUCKY, YOU CAN'T DRIVE THROUGH THAT TOWN AND NOT SEE THE POLICE HAVE SOMEBODY PULLED OVER.

IT'S CONSTANT.

AND WHO ARE THEY PULLING OVER?

IT'S PREDOMINANTLY POOR PEOPLE.

AND THAT'S NOT WHAT THEY JUST DECIDED TO DO.

THEY'RE FOLLOWING THE TRENDS OF THE LAST 25 YEARS TO TELL POLICE TO DO THAT.

SO THERE'S A HUGE CULTURAL SHIFT THAT NEEDS TO BE TAKE PLACE.

>> CHIEF MONROE.

>> I THINK THAT THIS ALL GOES BACK TO ONE THING.

REFORM.

WE NEED TO HAVE REFORM AND ACCOUNTABILITY.

I THINK HAVING THAT ACCOUNTABLE OF WHAT DR. KRASKA IS TALKING ABOUT, THAT'S NOT THE PRIMARY MISSION OF LAW ENFORCEMENT, AND I THINK WE NEED TO GET BACK TO THAT PRIMARY MISSION, WHETHER IT'S -- WE LOOK BACK TO -- LIKE DR. KRASKA SAID, ABOUT THE DRUG WARS AND WHAT THAT DID TO LAW ENFORCEMENT BACK IN THE '80s.

I THINK THAT WAS -- AT THE TIME IT WAS PROBABLY GOOD, BUT IT'S WAY OUTLASTED WHAT IT SHOULD HAVE, AND WE HAVE TO REFORM THAT.

>> PART OF ACCOUNTABILITY COULD BE ENDING RE, REFORMING QUALIFIED IMMUNITY.

MR. KATZ, I WANT TO COME TO YOU FOR THAT.

FIRST OF ALL, GIVE AS YOU READER'S DIGEST VERSION IN LAYMAN'S TERMS OF WHAT JUSTIFIED IMMUNITY IS AND SOME OF THE IDEAS ON HOW AND WHY THAT SHOULD REB FORMED.

>> SURE.

I'LL TRY TO GET THE THUMBNAIL SKETCH.

SO IF SOMEBODY ASSERTS THAT THEIR CIVIL RIGHTS WERE VIOLATED, LET'S SAY THROUGH EXCESSIVE FORCE, AND THEY WANT TO GO TO FEDERAL COURT, THEY WOULD FILE A LAWSUIT ALLEGING A VIOLATION OF THEIR CIVIL RIGHT.

THE -- AND THEY WOULD NAME THE OFFICER AS A DEFENDANT AS WELL AS THE CITY.

THE OFFICER MAY CLAIM THAT THEY HAVE IMMUNITY FROM BEING SUED, AND THAT'S CALLED QUALIFIED IMMUNITY.

AND WHAT QUALIFIED IMMUNITY MEANS IS EITHER, ONE, THAT THE ACTIONS OF THE OFFICER WERE NOT UNCONSTITUTIONAL OR, TWO, THERE IS A LACK OF CIVIL LAW, AND THAT SAYS TO A COURT CIRCUIT THAT THE CONDUCT WAS PROHIBITED.

AND THE SECOND ISSUE, WHICH HAS REALLY BECOME A LARGE CONTROVERSY, WHERE PEOPLE ARE NOT GETTING ACCESS TO THE COURTHOUSE TO BE COMPENSATED FOR THEIR HARM THAT THEY SUFFERED BECAUSE OF THAT HENDREN, BECAUSE OF THAT HURRIEDLY THAT IS THROWN UP WHICH SAYS UNLESS A PLAINTIFF CAN SHOW THAT IN THAT, LET'S SAY THE 9th CIRCUIT OR THE 5TH CIRCUIT CAN SHOW THAT THERE IS A PRIOR CASE WHICH COVERS THE SAME ISSUE, THAT THEY CANNOT MOVE FORWARD WITH THEIR THEIR CASE, AND THERE ARE EXTREME EXAMPLES OF THAT.

FOR EXAMPLE, THERE WAS ONE RATHER NOTORIOUS CASE WHERE, AFTER A FOOT PURSUIT, THE SUSPECT SAT DOWN AND HE RAISED UPS HIS ARMS AND SURRENDER, AND AN OFFICER RELEASED HIS POLICE DOG AND THE POLICE DOG BIT AND SERIOUSLY INJURED THAT MAN.

THE MAN SUED.

AND THE COURT FOUND QUALIFIED IMMUNITY AND SAID, WELL, WE COULDN'T FIND A SPECIFIC CASE JUST LIKE YOURS.

THERE WAS A CASE WHERE THERE WAS A FOOT PURSUIT AND THE MAN WHO WAS BEING CHASED LAID DOWN AND STRETCHED HIS HANDS OVER HIS HEAD OR STRETCHED THEM OUT TO HIS SIDE ON THE GROUND.

THE COURT SAID THAT'S NOT THE SAME SET OF FACTS.

SO THE OFFICER COULD NOT HAVE BEEN PUT ON NOTICE THAT RELEASING A DOG TO A MAN WITH HIS HANDS IN THE AIR IS PROHIBITED CONDUCT.

BUT THOSE ARE ABSURD RESULTS.

AND THE EFFORT TO REFORM QUALIFIED IMMUNITY IS TO DECREASE THAT ABSURDITY BY ALTERING THE STANDARD FOR -- PERHAPS EVEN HAVING A STANDARD WHICH REQUIRES AN OFFICER TO SHOW THAT THERE IS ACTUAL POLICY OR LAW THAT HE WAS FOLLOWING RATHER THAN FORCING THE PLAINTIFF TO SHOW THAT HE WAS NOT FOLLOWING IT.

>> SO KET OR PROFESSOR KRASKA, DO YOU WANT TO WEIGH IN ON QUALIFIED IMMUNITY?

>> AS A STATED EARLIER, IT'S DEFINITELY SOMETHING THAT IF WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT ANY QUALIFIED IMMUNITY, THEN THE REFORMS THAT WE ARE WANTING TO PUT IN PLACE ARE REALLY NOT GOING TO MATTER, SPECIFICALLY GIVEN WHAT WAS JUST SAID.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WAS JUST SAID THAT REMIND ME OF, AS WE'VE BEEN TALKING FOR ALMOST 45 MINUTES, IS WE HAVE NOT TALKED ABOUT RACE AND POLICING AND THE EXAMPLE THAT HE JUST GAVE ABOUT THE POLICE LETTING LOOSE THIS DOG ON A MAN WHO WAS SITTING DOWN.

THAT IS THE SAME THINGS THAT HAPPENED BACK IN THE DAY WITH SLAVERY AND THE CIVIL RIGHTS.

AND SO WE HAVE TO AGAIN CONNECT THOSE THINGS AND GET TO THE ROOT OF HOW OUR POLICE DEPARTMENTS WERE CREATED AND REALLY GET TO THAT ROOT AND SAY THAT WE HAVE TO NOT ONLY GET RID OF THOSE PRACTICES, BUT ALSO AGAIN, AS I SAID BEFORE, GET RID OF THOSE POLICIES AND PROCEDURES THAT HAVE ATTACKED A CERTAIN POPULATION AND IT HAS BEEN HISTORICALLY BLACK AND BROWN PEOPLE.

>> SO THERE IS A LOT OF FOCUS ON PUNISHMENT AND ACCOUNTABILITY THATS DID NOT THE WHOLE SOLUTION.

WHAT IS THE SOLUTION, I THINK I HEAR YOU SAYINGS WITH KETURAH HERRON, ON THE FRONT END FROM KEEPING THIS FROM BEING A PART OF THE EQUATION ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT YOU PERFORM QUALIFIED IMMUNITY.

DR. KRASKA.

>> I THINK KETURAH MAKES A GREAT POINT, THAT WE TALK A LOT ABOUT IMPLICIT BIAS.

THERE USED TO BE A TERM UNCONSCIOUS BIAS.

AND I THINK IT'S PART OF THE RECKONING THAT WE HAVE TO DO, AND IT'S A HARD TRUTH, AND IT'S NOT A POPULAR THING TO SAY, BUT THERE IS A REGRESSIVE ELEMENT IN POLICING THAT DOESN'T JUST HAVE IMPLICIT BIAS, IT HAS EXPLICIT BIAS, AND WE'VE SEEN THAT WITH TRAINING MATERIALS THAT HAVE BEEN UNCOVERED.

WE HAVE SEEN THROUGH DISCOVERY IN COURT CASES ALL KIND OF TEXTS THAT HAVE TAKEN PLACE, SOCIAL MEDIA SITES THAT ARE SAYING EXTREMELY DEROGATORY THINGS.

THERE'S NOT JUST AN IMPLICIT BIAS PROBLEM.

THERE'S ALSO AN EXPLICIT BIAS PROBLEM.

NOW, THAT SHOULD IN NO WAY BE SEEN AS SOME BLANKET CONDEMNATION OF THE POLICE, BUT IT DOES MEAN THAT THERE IS AN ELEMENT IN POLICING THAT HAS TO BE LOOKED AT CAREFULLY, AND I AGREE WITH THE CHIEF, LEADERSHIP IS PART OF THAT, THAT THOSE THINGS HAVE TO BE LOOKED AT CAREFULLY AND TAKEN SERIOUSLY, AND I THINK IN MOST POLICE DEPARTMENTS RIGHT NOW I HAVEN'T SEEN MUCH EVIDENCE THAT THEY ARE.

>> SO I WANT TO ASK CHIEF MONROE, ARE POLICE POLICE DEPARTMENTS IN KENTUCKY EXPLICITLY OR SUSPENSIONLY LOOKING AT IMPLICIT BIAS?

AND FROM THE RACE PERSPECTIVE?

>> YES, I THINK THEY ARE.

I KNOW WITH MY AGENCY WE ARE.

THAT'S ONE THING THAT WE DELVED INTO VERY DEEPLY.

BUT IT ALL STARTS WITH LEADERSHIP.

POLICE LEADERSHIP TEAM HAS TO CREATE THAT CULTURE OF DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION.

THAT'S WHAT LEADS TO THE SUCCESS IN POLICING.

>> AND DOES THAT ALSO MEAN THAT YOU HAVE DIVERSITY ALL THE WAY TO THE TOP OF THE RANKS AND NOT JUST LOWER LEVEL?

>> THAT'S CORRECT.

>> AND HOW DOES KENTUCKY FARE WHEN IT COMES TO THAT?

>> IT'S BELOW.

>> YEAH.

FRATERNALLY ORDER OF POLICE, WHAT DO YOU WEIGH IN ON THIS?

>> I THINK TAKE QUALIFIED IMMUNITY, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU TALK ABOUT PEOPLE IN DIFFERENT RANKS AND HAVING DIFFERENT RACES BE PART OF POLICE DEPARTMENTS AND THROUGH LEADERSHIP, IF YOU TAKE QUALIFIED IMMUNITY AWAY, OUR RETENTION RATES, THE PEOPLE, THE GOOD PEOPLE THAT WE BRING IN, IT'S A REALLY TOUGH SELL FOR FOLKS TO WANT TO BE A POLICE OFFICER, KNOWING THAT A SPLIT SECOND EXCISION DECISION THEY MAKE CAN MAKE THEM PERSONALLY CIVIL LIABLE.

AND I'M REALLY PROUD THE FASHION FOP HAS PUT OUT AT A LOT OF LITERATURE AND VIDEOS ABOUT THIS.

I JUST WANT TO SHARE FROM THAT, I WANTED TO BRING THIS UP TONIGHT.

THE LAST 2 UNHUNDRED CASES IN THE LOWER CORRESPONDENTS 57% OF THE COURTS FOUND THAT QUALIFIED IMMUNITY DID NOT APPLY TO THE OFFICER BASED ON WHATEVER INCIDENT THAT HAD HAPPENED.

IT'S NOT A BLANKET THING.

AND AGAIN I THINK THAT GOES BACK TO FACTS.

IT IS HARD BECAUSE IT DOES LOOK LIKE IT'S A BLANKET THING.

THE ONES WE DO HEAR ABOUT, IT SOUNDS LIKE THEY CAN GO OUT THERE AND DO WHATEVER THEY WANT AND KNOW THAT THEY'RE PROTECTED.

BUT IT'S JUST NOT THE CASE.

THE STATS MAY SHOW THAT THAT'S NOT BEEN FOLLOWED BEFORE, BUT WE KNOW THAT WHEN WE TELL OUR POLICE OFFICERS AND THE FOP ESPECIALLY, THERE'S NO GUARANTEES.

YOU HAVE TO DO THE RIGHT DECISION.

YOU HAVE TO FOLLOW THE RIGHT THINGS.

YOU HAVE TO BE WITHIN STATUTE, WITHIN POLICY, AND IT'S NOT A GIVEN.

BUT I THINK THAT SPLIT SECOND DECISION PART IS IMPORTANT THOUSAND ABOUT WHEN IT COMES TO QUALIFIED IMMUNITY.

YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE GOOD PEOPLE THAT WANT TO BE POLICE OFFICERS NO LONGER TAKE THAT OPPORTUNITY ANYMORE.

>> MR. KATZ, YOUR VIEW HERE.

AND DOES IT PERHAPS AFFECT THOSE WHO JUST MAKE A DECISION AND AN ACTION THAT THEY THOUGHT WAS REASONABLE, THAT THEY DIDN'T MEAN HARM?

DOES THAT GIVE EXCEPTION TO THAT?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THE LEADERSHIP, WHICH IS DISCUSSING QUALIFIED IMMUNITY IN CONGRESS RIGHT NOW IS DISCUSSING, AND THAT INCLUDES BOTH SENATORS AS WELL AS CONGRESS PEOPLE, INCLUDING REPRESENTATIVE PEET STARVE FROM MINNESOTA WHO IS A FORMER POLICE OFFICER WHO WAS SHOT IN THE LINE OF DUTY.

HE'S RIGHT THERE AT THE TABLE OF THE NEGOTIATORS WHO ARE DISCUSSING THAT.

UNDERSTAND WHAT THE FACTS ARE.

AND I KNOW THERE ARE SOME VOICES OUT THERE WHO ARE REALLY PUTTING THE FEAR INTO OFFICERS THAT IF THERE'S ANY CHANGE TO QUALIFIED IMMUNITY, THAT THEY WILL LOSE.

BUT IF FACTS ARE AND THE RESEARCH SUPPORTS THIS AND OFFICERS KNOW THIS, THAT 99% -- THIS IS NOT AN EXAGGERATION -- 99% PLUS OF THE TIME THAT THERE IS A SETTLEMENT OR A JUDGMENT AGAINST AN OFFICER, THAT SETTLEMENT OR JUDGMENT IS INDEMNIFIED OR PAID FOR BY THEIR EMPLOYER WHO, FOR THE MOST PART, POLICE ARE NOT BEING HELD PERSONALLY LIABLE.

IN OTHER WORDS, THEY'RE NOT ACTUALLY WRITING A CHECK.

THE TAXPAYERS ARE.

SO WHEN WE ARE SEEING OVERALL SETTLEMENT NUMBERS PER YEAR APPROACHING HALF A BILLION DOLLARS PER YEAR ACROSS THE COUNTRY, WE HAVE A PROBLEM THAT NEEDS TO BE RESOLVED.

>> I ALSO WANT TO -- ANY OTHER COMMENT ON QUALIFIED IMMUNITY?

IF NOT, WE'LL MOVE FORWARD.

I DO WANT TO GET TO THE POINT ABOUT DATABASE, AND I KNOW THIS HAS BEEN ONE OF THE DISCUSSIONS ABOUT THE CREATION OF A NATIONAL DATABASE SO THAT YOU KNOW WHERE THESE BAD COPS ARE SO THAT THEY DON'T HOPSCOTCH AROUND TO DIFFERENT DEPARTMENTS.

THE DESERTION EFFORT OF SB 80 IN ADDRESSES THAT BUTKUS IT CREATE A DATABASE TO TRACK THESE OFFENSES AND TO ROOT BAD COPSN==?

>> THERE IS A DATABASE, BUT THE PROBLEM IS IT'S NOT MANDATED FOR EVERY AGENCY IN THIS COUNTRY TO ENTER THAT DATA.

THAT'S WHERE THE PROBLEM IS.

WE DON'T NEED A NEW DATABASE.

THERE'S ALREADY ONE OUT THERE BUT THE PROBLEM IS WE'RE NOT CONTRIBUTING TO IT.

>> AND WHY IS THAT?

WHAT'S THE RUB ABOUT NOT EVERYONE FOLLOWING SUIT AND CONTRIBUTING LIKE THEY SHOULD PERHAPS?

>> I THINK PART OF IT IS THE LACK OF KNOWLEDGE THAT THE DATABASE EXISTS, THE LACK OF STATES CONTRIBUTING THAT DATABASE FROM THE STATE LEVEL UP TO THE NATIONAL LEVEL, AND THEN THE SHAME.

LAW ENFORCEMENT DOESN'T WANT TO APPEAR THAT THEY WERE WRONG, AND THAT'S PART OF THE PROBLEM IN REFORM.

WE HAVE TO PUT OUR EGOS ASIDE.

WE KNOW THAT WE ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM, AND WE HAVE TO CORRECT THAT PROBLEM.

>> YEAH, I THINK IT'S REALLY A REALLY IMPORTANT POINT BECAUSE ONE OF THE THINGS I'VE SEEN THROUGHOUT MY CAREER, PARTICULARLY IN THE LAST TEN YEARS, IS WHEN SOMETHING DOES COME UP THAT IS PROBLEMATIC, BREONNA TAYLOR, FOR EXAMPLE, BUT MUCH LESS SERIOUS INSTANCES AS WELL, IS TIME AND TIME AGAIN, AND I LOVE SOMEBODY TO DO THE RESEARCH ON IT.

WE CAN'T DO RESEARCH ON IT BECAUSE THOSE DATA AREN'T READILY AVAILABLE.

THEY'RE VERY -- IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO GET DATA OUT OF THE POLICE, BUT IF WE DID, I CAN PROMISE YOU WE WOULD FIND THAT AT LEAST 90% OF THE TIME THESE INSTANCES, THESE PROBLEMATIC INSTANCES ARE COVERED UP.

THEY'RE PUSHED TO THE SIDE.

THERE ARE STORIES TOLD.

THEY'RE SPUN IN A PARTICULAR WAY.

AND THEY DON'T GET DEALT WITH.

AND THAT WAS WELL -- BREONNA TAYLOR'S SITUATION WAS WELL ON ITS WAY FOR THAT HAPPENING IN THAT CASE AS WELL, AND IT TOOK SOME BRAVE PEOPLE TO COME FORWARD AND BRING IT TO THE LIGHT OF DAY.

AND SO THERE'S A HUGE TRANSPARENCY PROBLEM IN THE POLICE INSTITUTION, A MASSIVE ONE, AND THAT HAS TO BE, AGAIN, THAT'S GOT TO BE DEALT WITH.

>> MR. KATZ, I WANT TO ASK YOUR OPINION ABOUT THAT.

WILL THAT NOT -- THE CREATION OF THE DATABASE WE KNOW WAS THERE BUT THE COMPLIANCE WITH SUBMITTING THAT INFORMATION IS NOT.

WOULD THAT MAKE A BIG DENT IN THE TRANSPARENCY ISSUE WHEN IT COMES TO POLICE MISCONDUCT?

>> I THINK IT WOULD, AT LEAST IT WOULD HELP NOT ONLY RESEARCHERS BUT ALSO ADVOCATES AS WELL AS LAW ENFORCEMENT TRULY UNDER WHAT THE ACTS ARE.

SO -- UNDERSTAND WHAT THE ACTIONS ARE.

THERE IS A FEDERAL USE OF FORCE REPORTING DATABASE WHICH IS MAINTAINED BY THE FBI.

IT'S ABOUT TWO YEARS OLD.

AND SO FAR ONLY 40% OF ALL DEPARTMENTS ACROSS THE COUNTRY ARE CONTRIBUTING TO THAT DATABASE FOR WHEN OFFICERS USE FATAL FORCE.

THEN THE NATIONAL DESERTIFICATION INDEXED IS ALSO VOLUNTARY.

IT ALSO HAS LIMITED VALUE.

SO NOT ONLY DO I THINK THAT POLICE DEPARTMENTS SHOULD BE COLLECTING A WIDE RANGE OF DATA, LIKE WE SEE IN SOME STATES, EVERYTHING FROM TRAFFIC STOPS, SEARCHES, PEDESTRIAN STOPS, USE OF FORCE CLAIMS, LAWSUITS.

ALL THAT SHOULD BE COLLECTED.

IT SHOULD BE PUBLICALLY AVAILABLE.

THE RAW DATA ITSELF SHOULD BE AVAILABLE TO RESEARCHERS AND TO ADVOCATES.

AND THEN THERE HAS TO BE REPORTING TO THE STATE OR TO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT SO WE CAN REALLY BE ABLE TO COMPARE ACROSS DEPARTMENTS TO SEE WHAT THEIR ACTIVITIES ARE LIKE, AND WHERE IMPROVEMENT IS NEEDED.

LET'S MAKE THOSE IMPROVEMENTS.

>> KETURAH HERRON IN THE COUPLE OF MINUTES I HAVE REMAINING I WANT TO REVISIT A POINT YOU HAD MADE ABOUT RACE, AND WE HAD OVERLOOKED THAT FOR THE FIRST 40 MINUTES OF THIS SHOW.

WHEN IT COMES TO IMPROVING RELATIONS BETWEEN PARTICULARLY AFRICAN AMERICAN COMMUNITIES OR LATINX, OTHER COMMUNITIES OF COLOR AND POLICE, WHAT WOULD YOU RECOMMEND?

WHAT SHOULD BE THE MAIN PROVISIONS OF POLICE REFORM FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THOSE COMMUNITIES?

>> I MEAN, I THINK THE FIRST THING IS, IS THAT WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND AND OUR LEADERS IN POLICING HAVE TO UNDERSTAND AND ADMIT TO THE, AGAIN, THE HISTORICAL CONTEXT OF POLICING AND HOW BLACK AND BROWN COMMUNITIES HAVE BEEN POLICED.

AND THEN I THINK THAT YOU GO FROM THERE, AND WE TALKED ABOUT -- IF YOU TALK ABOUT DEFUND OR DIVEST AND INVEST, WE HAVE TO INVEST IN COMMUNITIES IN A DIFFERENT TYPE OF WAY.

AND OVERPOLICING COMMUNITIES OR STOPPING YOUNG BLACK BOYS OR PULLING PEOPLE OVER BECAUSE THEY HAVE A CERTAIN CAR, WE HAVE TO GET RID OF THOSE PRACTICES, AND THEN AGAIN WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT COMMUNITIES HAVE THE THINGS THAT THEY NEED.

BUT MORE THAN THAT, AGAIN, WHAT I WOULD SAY IS THAT IF WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT ENDING QUALIFIED IMMUNITY, THEN WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT ANYTHING BECAUSE WE CAN DO ALL THE REFORM IN THE WORLD, BUT UNTIL POLICE ARE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE MISCONDUCT AND FOR BRUTALIZING COMMUNITIES AND TERRORIZING COMMUNITIES, WE'RE NOT DOING ANYTHING.

ONE THING THAT I WILL SAY FOR KENTUCKY, WHICH IS IS THAT WE TAKE THE POLICE OUT OF OUR SCHOOLS.

WE JUST PASSED THAT TWO SESSIONS AGO, AND WHAT WE SAW LAST YEAR, IT'S TIME TO SWITCH THAT.

>> SCHOOL RESOURCE OFFICERS.

I REMEMBER THAT IN 2019.

WE'LL TALK ABOUT THAT PROBABLY AGAIN SOON AS WELL AS THIS ISSUE AS WELL.

MR. KATZ, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US AND OUR PANELISTS HERE IN THE STUDIO.

IT'S BEEN A VERY GOOD CONVERSATION AND ONE WE'LL CONTINUE TO HAVE.

AND FOLLOW AS THE BILLS MOVE THROUGHOUT CONGRESS.

MAKE SURE YOU JOIN US NEXT MONDAY NIGHT.

WE'RE GOING TALK ABOUT JOBS AND THE ECONOMY.

THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH FOR WATCHING.

I'M RENEE SHAW.

TAKE GOOD CARE.