(inspiring music) - It's blinding.

- Good evening, everyone and welcome to the Women's Leadership Institute's Future of Work and Leadership panel event.

We're so happy to have you here and welcome to all the folks that are viewing online as well.

My name is Susie Elkins.

I'm the general manager and director of broadcasting at WKAR Public Media right here on campus at Michigan State University.

So excited to be here this evening with our lovely panel.

This evening, we have the pleasure of hearing from three inspirational women leaders and for the next hour, we'll listen to their stories and practical advice on how to work and lead within the context of the future.

Now, please join me in welcoming our panelists this evening.

First, we have Brenda Becker.

Brenda is the senior vice president of global government affairs at Boston Scientific.

Brenda is a proud alumnae of MSU and the College of Social Science.

Welcome, Brenda.

- Go White!

- Go white!

I got you.

Next, we have Trina Scott.

Trina is the chief diversity officer at Rock Ventures, a Detroit-based company serving the 100 plus businesses that make up the Rock family of companies, Trina and the family of companies are great friends of MSU and we're delighted to have Trina participate tonight with the WLI.

welcome, Trina.

- Go Green!

- Go white, I love it.

Finally, Angela Cinefro.

Angela, an alumnae from the College of Communication, Arts and Sciences, my college, is the chief talent officer and organization architect at Ankara.

Angela and her firm have been consistent supporters of the WLI and its student scholarships.

Welcome Angela.

- Thank you, glad to be here.

- Our discussion this evening will center on the ever-changing landscapes of work and leadership.

Throughout the evening, we'll discuss the new normal, that is work today, and cover practical steps to leading in that space.

We'll begin tonight by thinking about changes to the workplace that affect how we prepare and engage in work and in leadership, I'm just gonna set the stage for a few questions that I have for the panel for just a moment.

As we know, the current workplace is vastly different from what previous generations navigated.

On average, a working adult may hold up to 12 jobs in their lifetime with the average tenure at a paid position around four years.

It's a very different reality from 30 to 40 years of company loyalty, defined benefit plans, a gold watch upon retirement.

(women laughing) Further, competition in education and employment now plays out on a global stage and advancements in technology, robotics and AI have altered the nature of many positions and changed who or what can staff them.

Then, throw in a global pandemic, why not, and throw that into the mix, which among other things changed the definition of what critical work is and what an office can and should look like and where and how work could be done.

- And a racial uprising as well.

- Absolutely.

- George Floyd.

- And with these changes and many more unsaid, we know aspiring leaders need to be flexible, adaptive and have multi-faceted skill sets.

So my question for you, that's a big set up, there's a lot going on as we think about the future of work, so how have you seen the workplace evolve, first of all, and what have you done to adapt and what would you say to the leaders we have joining us tonight as they plan for their next steps?

And we're gonna start with you, Brenda.

- Probably 'cause I've worked the longest.

I've had the privilege of working for over 40 years and we've really come a long way, baby, lots of progress.

And I have to say, though progress doesn't happen overnight.

So you look at the evolving workplace and it's gonna continue to evolve, and when I think back, there's so many changes since when I first started working after I graduated here in 1981, from things like landlines, some of you probably haven't heard about them or brick phones or used to Xerox with an apron on with the ink to today with cell phones and everything and technology has really been the driver behind the changes in the workforce.

And when you look at the pandemic, again, it's technology that is changing the workforce and how we work.

The other big change is women.

And I applaud the Women's Leadership Institute at Michigan State for doing so much to promote women.

Really, we were talking at dinner how we had wished that it was here when we were here.

But you look at, I look back at women in the workplace, when I first started, I remember walking into the manager's meeting to bring some brochures 'cause that's what women did, and I remember saying out loud 'cause I'm a wallflower, "Wow, it's all men in here" and my manager looking at me like shh, shh, shh, and it was all white, there were very few, and this was in downtown Detroit, there were persons of color, but not very many.

And now wow look, I mean CEOs and all the opportunities, we have women in the boardroom, C-suites, we have women doing everything, like girls can do anything, right?

So when I also look at that, women weren't very good at helping each other, which is why this Women's Leadership Institute is so important.

And I think the reason for that was 'cause we were competing the same job.

There weren't all these opportunities that I just pointed out.

So as we move into what these changes taking place now, I would say what I'm really doing to adapt to this new world of remote working, hybrid working, pandemics is to really listen to my employees with empathy, to communicate on a more regular basis.

I've always been a great communicator, but really, really hear what they have to say and try to adapt.

I think as managers and leaders, it's going come upon us to make it work for the employee.

And there's so many things that we will need to do from how do we judge people if some are working at home or some are in the office, what does that performance review mean?

And I think we've really come to the point where it's not how many hours you work, but what are the outcomes and the achievements and results that we're getting for those employees.

So I'll let my colleagues here share more of their thoughts.

- Yeah, no, that was well said.

Good evening, everybody.

It's so good to be in person with people, yes.

(people applauding) We know we have a lot of people online, but we also are very, I'm very excited to be here in person with all of you and sharing this stage with such such esteemed panelists.

When I think about what has happened over the last 18 months or even in my last 26 years of working, there are some things that have stayed the same and that is doing very well at what you do, being very good at what you do and demonstrating how you contribute to the excellence of an organization or to a university or to whatever it is that you're focused on.

So I'm not so focused on what has changed.

I've been doubling down on what has been successful and those things that are successful are always showing up with excellence, always executing with excellence and making sure that I use my voice because I'm there for a reason.

And those are the things that I think are important for all of us to think about as we move from this collegial space, as we move into our careers, as we up ourselves in our careers, I think those things are important.

But some of the things you highlighted are true, right?

Not having equal opportunity.

I mean when we think about women of color, we still are in the lowest percentage of CEO and chief positions, whatever they are.

And so we still have a lot to grow in that space.

But I think where we are now is, after the death of George Floyd and many others, I think now we are not just spotlighting what has been inequitable, but really doubling down on those processes and not focusing so much on people, at least from my perspective, I think that that is most important.

Where are there inequities in processes and how do we root out those inequities?

And then once we do that, I think we then bring in holding people accountable.

And so for me, as a leader, I think what's most important is making sure that I'm honest, that I lead with integrity and that I'm always, always in the business with my team.

And that is so important, that digging in and making sure that you're not just leading from afar, but you're in the trenches each and every day.

So those are my thoughts about where we are and where things are going and how things are kind of the same in that sense.

- Yeah, agreed.

- I love it.

When I graduated from Michigan State in 1991, I had the unique I think opportunity, I ended up joining a retail store and it was all women.

And my first opportunity was leading women that were several decades older than I was and it was an incredible opportunity to know that no matter sort of what environment you walk into, sometimes it can be really homogenous, sometimes you may be the only woman or the only person of color, what matters I think is exactly what you said, which is lead with excellence.

And so when you work hard and you show up and you have courage and you're willing to speak your mind and make it better, I think eventually it will drive change.

Doesn't always happen, isn't always easy, but I think is incredibly important to be authentic to yourself.

If I had one piece of advice, I would say, don't make yourself smaller for anyone, but that doesn't mean that you don't have to do that authentically or with compassion.

And so for me, it was very much working my way up.

Today, I happen to have the privilege and it's a tremendous responsibility, as the chief talent officer, it means I lead our people office and our function for consulting firm.

And so when I think about what the last 18 months has meant, it's really in many, many ways navigating through very unprecedented time and taking care of people and really doing some soul searching I think as a company to make sure that we weren't just following what everyone else did, that we were working to listen to our employees and take that feedback.

I think fundamentally, leadership no matter what stage it's at, whether it was 40 years ago or today, takes a dimension of courage because sometimes you have to take decisions that either aren't popular, but you always have to be willing to explain the why.

So I think you have to get comfortable being uncomfortable.

- I think you've all given some excellent advice already and what we really want to do is to be able to provide some practical advice for those in the audience.

So let's switch gears a little bit to our next topic, which is how to develop a vision.

A familiar Chinese proverb states, "That a journey of 1,000 miles begins with a single step."

And in the context of work and leadership development, the single step may be akin to the beginning of a vision.

So how do you, how has your vision changed from when you were taking that first step and how are our audience, how are they to know that they might be taking a first toward a vision?

Can you talk a little bit about that and what your experience has been?

And Angela, I think we're gonna start with you this time.

- All right, fair enough.

So I get asked I think that question a lot of sort of did you know what you wanted to do or did you lay out your career path?

And I have to be really honest, I was the first one in my family to go to college.

I was thrilled to be at Michigan State.

I had no clue what I wanted to do.

I knew I loved to learn and I knew I was a good communicator.

And so that's where I ended up going.

For awhile, I thought maybe I'd be an attorney.

Then, I did an exchange program in Australia and realized there were lots of other ways to contribute and ended up really getting my first role at a phenomenal organization, PricewaterhouseCoopers, where I ended up in the HR function.

And I realized that was where I was meant to be.

And so over time for me, the vision really became, you know, my purpose in life full-stop is helping other people succeed.

It is absolutely what brings me joy.

And so for me, that was figuring out where in corporations, whether they be for profit or not for profit, could I do that the best?

- Thanks.

Brenda, do you have any thoughts on that?

- Well, you made me think of something, that same with me, I didn't really, I knew I was gonna be a lobbyist, but I don't think I really knew what that meant, but when I look at vision and where I started, it was all about me.

I was gonna be the best, I had to do everything, nobody else could do it better than I can, to now my vision is built over the years of it being about we and building really, really strong and diverse teams, smarter people than me around the table, people that think differently than I do so that we get to the best outcomes.

And I'm very specific about how I go about this.

I make sure when I have an open position that I have a diverse slate of candidates, I look at my whole team, what do we need?

Do I need more women?

Do I need more men?

Do I need people of color?

Do I need somebody that's LBGTQ?

What do I need to make sure that we get to the best results and the best outcomes?

And just like Angela just said, I spend a lot of time mentoring others, helping them develop, what can I do to push away those obstacles and develop you to be the best you can be?

And speaking of your core, there's a saying of St Francis De Sales at my children's school when they were going to high school, that said, "Be who you are and be that well."

And I think I've always done that is stuck to my core as you were talking about too.

- Any thoughts on vision?

- Oh my goodness.

- Last but not least.

- Well, what I can say about vision is this, is that when I started college at Oakland University, I thought I was gonna be a physical therapist.

I'm a former student athlete and my first semester I realized that that wasn't my jam.

And so then I find myself trying to figure out what was next and I remember my parents always telling me if you understand how business works, then you can do anything with that.

So I pursued my degree in finance and I started the first stretch of my career as a fraud examiner, a compliance officer.

And one might say, how in the heck did you get, thank you, I didn't swear.

- Family family.

- Oh my God.

- There's still time in the night.

- I know, I know.

I'm batting 100 right now.

I was thinking about how did I make the transition from being an auditor, a compliance officer, a fraud examiner to chief diversity officer?

And it wasn't by luck.

It was because I had an event that happened in my life that really paused that made me say what was most important?

I was no longer trying to strive for what was my title, how much money was I making, what role did I play in an organization?

I really wanted to know if I was gonna spend this time at work, 40, 60, 70 hours a week, how would I do that where it aligns with my purpose?

And so when I had this life-changing event, it really caused me to say what was most important to me and that was giving back and lifting as I climb, but also taking my career of being able to do risk assessment and applying that to processes around people.

And so I am very, very grateful to Jeff Bergeron, who was the office managing partner at Ernst and Young at the time that I was there and I quit.

I said, "I'm done.

I don't want to do this anymore."

I was traveling 90% of the time.

And he said, "Please Trina, do not.

Let's take the time and figure out this diversity, equity and inclusion journey."

And I said, "I'm just a black woman, that's all I know."

And he said, "I'm a white man and that's all I know.

Let's figure it out together."

And we did.

And the vision was the same of trying to figure out how do we make equitable pathways for folks and how do we make sure that not just give you your slice of the pie, and this is what I've learned at being at Rocket Companies from Dan Gilbert, our chairman and founder, is how do you make the pie bigger?

And then how do you teach people how to eat the pie?

And you could eat as much as you want, right, as long as it's low fat?

But most importantly, I think what my vision has evolved to is more on what are the things that are gonna really move the needle?

What is the legacy that I'm gonna leave for my daughter?

What is the legacy that I'm gonna leave for my family?

And that legacy boils down to being kind to people, giving as many opportunities as I can, instilling this from the National Association of Black Accountants, lifting as I climb.

And so I think that as you, for the students that are out there, as you embark on your careers, you may not land that first job or that first opportunity where it aligns with being your jam or being that's that job that I was looking for or that career path that I was looking for, but each one of those experiences build off and prepare you for something much greater.

And so my vision has always been, how can I learn the most that I can in what I'm doing 'cause it's gonna build off for the next thing?

And so that's what I've learned over the years.

- Well, that's an incredible story and I think it speaks to when you have a mentor, someone like your boss who saw in you something, and didn't want to let you go and let's figure this out together and I think that that shows the power of leadership in someone that can see someone like you and know that you have just an incredible journey ahead and wanting to make sure they play a part in that.

And so thank you for sharing that.

The next question I want to move to gets back to what Angela was talking about a little bit about getting comfortable and needing to share the why when you're doing hard work, particularly with people, and how important that is.

And the author Simon Sinek highlights the reasons companies and leaders do what they do and the why that grounds who they are in his book "Start With Why" and what they produce.

I think a lot of people are reading these leadership books and thinking about that, but he states, "That the most successful leaders inspire others not out of their what or how, but their why."

And in your leadership journey, what would you say is your why?

And Trina, we're gonna start with you, so think about this, in your leadership journey, what would you say is your why, you just talked about that a little bit, and how did you get to the place of understanding, defining, and living your why?

Maybe you jumped ahead and answered that already.

Do you have more?

- Yeah, you know, I think I can double down a little bit more on my why, especially as I thought about the next thing.

For me, leaving consulting world and going into private sector into an organization not only was I looking for, I wasn't looking for an opportunity, but I was looking for an organization that was really making an impact, and they don't pay me to say this so this really comes from the bottom of my heart, I am at Rocket Companies because I'm a native Detroiter, because I'm a black woman, and because I saw opportunity to be able to make an impact in not only the communities that I lived in and grew up in and that the company is in, but also an opportunity to root out inequities, whether it be in home ownership, which is the core of our business, whether it be in opportunities for careers.

And so for me, when I was looking for an organization to work for, as I was deciding what I wanted to do next, I looked at their core values and I wanted to understand what that meant.

So part of our core values is for more than profit effort, meaning doing well and doing good at the same time, but not just talking about it and having a corporate social responsibility playbook, but really doubling down on that.

So as I think about the last four and a half years and really over the last 18 months, how do we make an impact on really rooting out inequities in home ownership?

We are 53 years from a law passing for rooting out inequities around red lining and everything else and we're at the lowest percentage for black, Latinx, and other minority groups of home ownership.

That's disgraceful.

So thinking about what does that mean?

Not just thinking about what the problem is and highlighting it, but how do we as the largest mortgage company in the country, how do we make our impact on rooting out those inequities?

And so thinking about where you go in your career, who do you work for, how do you align with that, not only are they gonna interview you, but you're interviewing them.

So do your due diligence, understand does this align with morally how I think.

Maybe every decision that an organization makes you may not understand why, you may not know or you may have a different opinion, but the core at what they do is so valuable.

And for me, my why has been how do I make an impact and how do I make an impact with an organization that I work with?

And that's how I really align with making my decision on where I work and what I do and how I spend my time.

- I think that's a really important point of interviewing the company and that holds companies accountable.

And so I think that's a really good point.

Brenda, what about you?

- Yeah, reflecting on that kind of goes back to the previous question of why I am so strong at building teams is I had a boss that was a micromanager and I had the most miserable experience.

I stayed for 16 years, which you'd all think okay, what's wrong with her?

Why didn't I give my jersey back, right, hand it in?

But I learned a lot there.

But she, I was young, I was in my 20s and she valued people that were strong policy wonks.

And as my two college roommates are somewhere up here that I can't see they know that I was not the best student.

So I was a relationship builder and that's what I brought to the table, but I was never a good fit when she valued policy wonks.

So it was a very miserable experience and I think that's why today, I want to empower others, I want to help bring them along in their careers, let 'em be who they are, find those opportunities of what they're good at.

It doesn't mean you shouldn't challenge yourself to other things, but it really, I hold people accountable, but I'm like, go do it, I'm getting out of your way, I don't need to micromanage that project.

I get spun up every once in a while, of course.

You can probably tell by my, you know, like if I'm someone like, uh, did you get that done?

But that's really was my why I think that developed me as a manager and a leader is seeing it done in a way that I just didn't think was very well done.

- I think, you tell me, can I jump in?

All right, fair enough.

- Please do.

- So when I think back, again I don't know that I ever envisioned I would end up building a career in HR, and multiple times actually I stepped out and did operations and business strategy and planning, but every single time I did that, I gravitated back into human resources.

And in many ways because I felt like it needed to be reinvented.

Certainly, a huge part of an HR function is compliance and making sure that you're protecting both employees and the company, but ultimately I wanted to figure out a way to be in an environment where people could be their genuine and authentic selves and feel included, right, which certainly gets to a sense of belonging and inclusion.

And for me, I can look back and say one of the really defining moments, I mentioned earlier I had the opportunity, it was, many of you may not even know this movie, but there's "Crocodile Dundee" and there was a chance to go to Australia, Michigan State and I was just a little like farm girl, never really even been out of the state.

And so I had this incredible opportunity, in many ways, thanks to American Express card, but had this incredible opportunity to go to Australia.

And in leaving Australia, had an opportunity to go to Guam and Saipan, and I grew up in a tiny town where everyone kind of looked like I did.

I came to Michigan State and it was one of the first times that I was around people of color and people with different opinions and thoughts and I loved it.

So I'm going through this airport in Guam, and I'll never forget it, for me, it was life-changing, so I'm walking through the airport and for whatever reason, time, I don't know the same thing would happen today, I was the only Caucasian woman in the airport, and I felt like everyone was looking at me.

I don't know whether they were or not, but I felt like everyone was looking, and I remember, I will never forget that feeling, so I go over to where there was some food 'cause a long delay, and there's a group of men, white men, and I'm sort of standing there and they invited me to sit down with them, and I, my husband often says they weren't being kind, but I'm gonna believe they were being kind, assume good intention, but what I will tell you is that act of asking me to come and sit down, I immediately felt better.

And so for me from the time I've been little, I hate it when people feel excluded, I hate it, and I am always willing if there was the kid sitting alone or there was someone who is struggling to speak up in a meeting, I talk a lot so probably some of my current colleagues are like, mmm, might need to work on that, but I want to bring people into the conversation because I think for sure my purpose in helping people, helping people succeed is very much tied to diversity of thought.

And the only way you get that is if you include.

And so it is just core to what I want for everyone.

- Fantastic.

Well, we're gonna stick to the why for just a little bit longer, double down on that even more 'cause I think this is even more important in figuring out your why in extra difficult times, which I think we would all agree we're in.

And so there was a recent Ted interview with the author Simon Sinek and he said in this interview, "Leadership is the responsibility to see those around us rise."

It's the responsibility to take care of those around us.

That is what leadership is.

It's not about being in charge, it's about taking care of those in our charge."

So this definition casts a vision of leadership that is steeped in community, involving mentors and active allies.

And so in your experience, what does it mean to take care of those in your charge?

What does that look like?

And what advice do you have for finding a caring mentor and growing a meaningful network?

So those are two pretty distinct questions, but advice for finding a mentor, and in your experience, what does it mean to take care of those in your charge?

Trina, would you like to go first?

- Okay.

What was the first one?

I switched them up on you just to confuse you.

- I know you did, I'm trying to reorient myself.

- Let me start with one.

- I'll start with the mentor one.

I'll start with that.

Oftentimes, I think that when we seek out mentors, oftentimes we seek out mentors to give us something, right?

I mean a mentor is someone that helps to bring you along and give you advice and things like that, but as a mentee, it's important of why are you going to seek that out?

So as a mentee, when I replay that role, I always have a strategic focus, why am I reaching out to this person?

What am I trying to gain from them and what can I give them?

And so when I reach out to a person like Tonya Allen, who used to be the CEO of the Skillman Foundation that now leads the McKnight Foundation in Minnesota, when I reached out to her, I had a very set agenda.

Not only did I want her to get to know me and me to get to know her, but I wanted to be able to learn from her, the things that I did not have, the things of working in the community from a more strategic way and not just from a volunteering way.

I learned from her and wanted to learn from her how do you lead an army of people, not just the people that you lead directly, but the people are outside of your purview?

And so I think as a mentee, it's important that you have objectives that you outline for a mentor and that you stick to that.

It's nothing worse than wasting someone's time.

And so I think that as, you know if you play the role of a mentor, it's making sure that you hold the mentee accountable of what they're trying to achieve.

But as a mentee, it's also important that you go in understanding what it is that you're trying to gain from them.

The second part of the question is how do you bring people along?

And I remember my first leadership role was at 26 years old and I was working for Mishcon, which at the time was the gas company for the state of Michigan.

And, oh my goodness, I have so many fond memories of that.

Everybody was at least double my age and I remember when they appointed me the leader of this group, I was like, oh my goodness, I'm leading like people who are my parents' age, what am I gonna do to bring them along?

And being a former athlete, it was easy for me to lean on what did it take to be a team player?

How did I be a team player?

I wasn't always the best shooter.

I wasn't always the one that was in the headlines and that wasn't important to me.

I also wasn't the person that led the coaching.

There were coaches that did that.

But what I knew I had was the contribution and what I also knew was that others had a contribution.

So what I've learned in leading others is leaning in on what their superpowers are, making sure that not only do you outline what your expectations are, but also understanding from them what they want and what their expectations are.

And that has to be tempered because oftentimes I think we think that what we say we should get, and that's just not how the world works, unfortunately.

But I also think that it is important to understand that even if you can't give people those things as you lead them, you can give them honesty and you can give them ways in which they can grow and learning how to grow in whatever role they're in currently or the role that they're looking for in the future.

And so those are some of the things that I lean on and leading others.

- Thank you.

Brenda, what about you?

Well, just on the networking, I'm big on networking obviously with being a people person, relationship builder and I know that's not easy for everybody.

But I would encourage people to join different groups even if it's something you're passionate about, you learn new things, you meet new people and it might spark some new ideas.

I'm a true believer in you can't make a friend when you need one.

So I'm always out there, like I've loved meeting these colleagues sitting here with me tonight, it's been a blast and they're terrific and I'm just hanging on your every word, but anyways, but as far as mentoring, I love mentoring.

I think my children, my children both work on Capitol Hill, both Michigan State Spartans, I brainwashed them early, took 'em to a Michigan, Michigan State game and it did it.

Anyways so they think I have a little table up on Capitol Hill and they can just send their friends to me, which I love doing because you don't really listen to your parents, even though I've told a lot of people graduating from college, remember all those friends that were annoying of your parents, go find out what they do for a living and learn something from them.

But mentoring is really, when I was looking, I don't think I really thought about a mentor, I just knew I needed help writing or I needed help how to be a manager.

So I looked for the people that were good at that and said, "Hey," kind of to your point being intentional, "I'm having this issue with one of my employees.

How do I deal with that?"

So I think you don't have one mentor throughout your whole life.

I do have one mentor, my father, who I'm very close with and he listens to me spout off about any given thing and gives me really good, solid feedback.

And remember, feedback is a gift.

You do want to reach out to people and ask them, "How am I doing?

Do I need to do something differently?

Where can I improve?

Who would you suggest I talk to?"

Those are all extremely valuable for anybody that's out there.

Even at my age, I still make mistakes, I still have to sometimes take a risk and I always am looking for feedback as I continue my journey in life.

- So let's see.

I would share, I think originally I didn't really, as I first graduated, didn't realize how smart it is to look for mentors.

I think I figured it out pretty quickly in my first role when everyone was a couple of decades older than I was.

And first place I probably went were were aunts and uncles and close family friends.

I think ultimately, for me, I ended up really looking at like where do I really struggle, right?

So for me, financial acumen didn't come easily.

And so I built into my network people who I could ask any and all questions.

And then I think the other thing I would share is so often, right we think of mentors, as somebody either older than us or not in our company.

And I really think there's tremendous value in colleagues and peers at every level that you build a relationship that it's trusted and that they'll give you feedback and you'll give them feedback.

There's a tremendous opportunity to learn from one another.

You don't have to wait until you start your career or get your first job.

If you have to give a speech in class, find someone who you think is going to give you constructive feedback.

So it doesn't have to always be a really big formal relationship.

I think it can be moments.

And sometimes those are some of the most valuable moments.

I worked for a woman who to this day I learned a tremendous, tremendous amount from, and we were in a big meeting, everybody around a table, and when I get passionate, I have a hard time listening, still working on that decades later, and we're going through a strategy session and I am overcontributing.

And she pulls me aside outside of the meeting real time and said, "I know you get it, but we need everyone else to get it too so that they want to make the change."

To this day, some of the best advice I've ever gotten.

So I think it's really make sure you're open to advice.

And then I think on the leadership mentor side, be willing to share that constructive feedback.

I have worked with so many leaders and managers who are so clear when the person is not in front of them and then when they're in front of that person, it's so hard sometimes to share.

But I have found over time, if you are genuinely invested in someone's success, those conversations get way easier.

So building like the muscles to share constructive feedback when things go well, when they don't or ways to be more effective, it gets easier and easier and I think there's tremendous value in it.

- I couldn't agree with you more.

I know I'm breaking the script here.

- You're fine.

- Anytime.

- We're off and running now.

- I think the most important thing you just said is building relationships, and relationships are so important and building genuine relationships.

That doesn't mean that we're gonna be BFFs and go to Rick's.

You all know about Rick's?

Yes, I know about Rick's.

- It's still there.

- But it does mean that you at least let people know that you care.

And we heard from the mayor of Grand Rapids, she was awesome, Mayor Blessing, she talked about having empathy and leading with authenticity.

I just think that that's so important in building relationships.

And so that's so valuable in leading is that people know that you actually care.

And that means that you have to be vulnerable, like you just talked about being fallible and showing that to others, I think that that means that others will gravitate to coming along, right?

- Yeah that's right and I think so often, you learn some of the best lessons when you fail and you're willing to accept that you failed and to figure out why.

And sometimes that is really hard to do with your ego and you wanted to land that or you wanted to do well in that interview, but I will tell you, I have ultimately hired people who didn't do well in the interview, but they've been tenacious and come back and said, "Can you help me interview better?"

And so I think we're all a work in progress and the more we can continue to be giving to one another and be authentic, I think it gets better and better.

- It's hard to communicate that isn't it, that by giving that constructive feedback that's showing care?

And it's hard for us to do it and you have to build that muscle.

And so if we're willing to do it, it means we believe in you and we care about you and I think you're all shining examples of that in terms of building that.

- I just say as leaders, to your point, giving feedback is very, very important how you give it and I think I have grown over the years in my leadership role, I was doing nobody any favors by not telling them something, the truth.

It's hard to tell the truth when you say, "Get the chip off your shoulder, pal."

But it's something that's very important because you have a whole team of people that are watching that too, and it creates morale in an office, it creates people's trust that we talked about.

So I didn't mean to keep adding onto that, but it is so important for the leaders in the room, managing directors, whatever level you are, that you are, you can be diplomatic, you can say something positive first, "You are so good at this, but I'm gonna help you be a leader because here's what is perceived when you do X."

And I found after practicing it with people after awhile, it was like the best thing I ever did and I was scared to do it, like I don't want to tell them the truth, God forbid.

- It really as a show of respect and I remember struggling with that myself and thinking, do I care about this person?

Do I respect this person?

Then I have to do this.

No matter how uncomfortable it is for me, it's a sign of respect to share this because how awful to, I wouldn't want to know people are thinking this about me behind my back thinking I could change and seeing it in me and not saying anything, it truly is a sign of respect I think so.

- I know you're trying to move on.

Like I said, I can talk a lot so you really need to yank me off the stage, the only other thing I would say right, for those of you who, I mean I remember being on campus and in groups and you're already in leadership roles, right that stuff doesn't just start when you get your first job, I think you create that environment when you ask what you can do better as a leader for that person.

So if you create an environment, and it's not easy to do, and some people will give you that feedback and others they're just trying to have you drink your own Kool-Aid, but it doesn't actually help you, but if you create the environment right, where you say, "What could I be doing better?

", or, "I see you're struggling.

Is there something I can do to help?"

So if somebody doesn't know how to do something, I think as a leader, I personally believe in servant leadership, so that means if I have a new person, and this is probably gonna date me, you don't know how to do a pivot table, for those of you like Excel, we live in Excel, then I have to be willing to show them how, not just say, "Hey, you need to get better at this."

And so I think to the degree as a leader, you can demonstrate that you understand someone's job and the complexity of it or the simplicity of it, it's really important to lead by example that you're willing to roll your sleeves up and do it too.

- All great advice.

I think it was worth hanging out there for just a little bit longer.

- You can skip me on the next one.

- No, no, no, we don't want to miss any of your comments.

I think this is all really wonderful and I'm gonna move now, probably a lot of people in the audience are thinking about that first job or maybe then the next job or how to even get another leadership role on campus, but when we think about the job market, volatility is nothing new in the US job market.

I'm gonna set the stage a little bit again for changing gears, but however, in 2020 due to COVID-19, the job market landscape changed drastically.

According to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, in September, 2019, the unemployment rate hit a record low of 3.5%.

From there, it rose to 14.8% in April, 2020 and has been steadily declining.

So talk about volatility.

But in addition to the ups and downs of the job market, many recruiters currently believe the effects of the global pandemic will result in increased competition for fewer career positions.

This is contrasted by labor shortages, we were just talking about this earlier, in lower paying sectors of the economy, such as retail and service industries.

So with all of this, why should we be hopeful?

Give us some, I know you all are very positive and you see lots of hope in the future.

So give some hope to those in the audience who are thinking about how am I supposed to maneuver through an environment like this?

It seems very scary I'm sure.

So help us through this and what kind of adaptations, if any, are needed by job applicants?

What advice do you have for this particular moment?

How can we meet the moment here?

And Angela, you're first on my list.

- Just cut me off.

Just cut me off.

So I'm gonna be a little controversial which is I think kind of maybe the first thing to do is to not read all the headlines, right?

At the end of the day, you need to find your first opportunity.

That's it.

It's not easy, but that's it.

And I think it can get so defeating to sort of watch all of these conflicting headlines.

And so I would say first and foremost, really reflect on what you've done, where that passion comes from, what you're good at, what you're not good at, and then you got to work hard.

It means you have to do exactly what I think Brenda did, which is if you're not already registered with your career placement office, go get that done, like that's like first step, make sure you're already thinking about building your network.

It is who are your friends, parents?

Depending on how you grew up, I grew up not with a lot of means.

And so that concept of asking friend's parents was completely foreign to me, right?

I thought I had to do it all myself.

And I think if you look around and you think about the relationships that you have, I think most of us are at this stage, or at least the stage I'm at in life, I love nothing more than to figure out how to help someone who is just starting out.

And so A, really work your network, B, make sure you have LinkedIn, I mean you just sort of have to have LinkedIn.

- A must, a must, robots.

- You just have to.

And like professional picture, every once in a while, I see some, does matter depending on where you want to work.

Make sure you're covering those basics and then I think prepare and persist.

So when you get that first interview, make sure you're ready, do your homework, review the website, see who you possibly know who works there, figure out their competition, right, preparation matters.

We were talking earlier about do we prepare for things like this?

And the answer is yes, absolutely.

And don't give up.

I remember talking to someone who was like, "I applied to 10 jobs today".

And I was like, "You have to apply to 50 sometimes."

That is just the way it is.

And then I think it's figuring out once you send that CV or send your resume and following up and being pleasantly persistent.

It works.

- The handwritten thank you note that we were talking about.

- Yeah jump in because I think that's spot on, right, differentiating yourself.

- Yeah, differentiating.

So I think while you're in school in particular, I get a lot of calls, people want to come intern on Capitol Hill and I'm like, "Okay so what are you doing while you're at school?

Are you working on a campaign?

There's campaigns all over the state.

Probably you have either a young Democrat or a young Republicans that are on campus.

What are you doing to build your resume now, not when did you get out of school?"

So I think that's extremely important to build your resume, figure out what you're passionate about.

There's a great newsletter called "The Muse."

You can get it online.

I get it.

It tells you how to write a resume, how to do interviews by Zoom, all these wonderful tips to help you find jobs.

They even have jobs on there.

And as women, the one thing that we are so bad at, we think we have to check every box on the list.

- Very true.

- Of you need these six skills and this much experience.

Figure out why you would be good at that job even if you only get three of the 10, just apply.

I'm doing this with trying to get on a corporate board and I don't have a financial background.

You two, I could learn a lot from you, I'm still trying to, PNL right, profit and loss.

Anyways so.

- That's the first step.

- But I say why not?

What's the worse that can happen?

They could say no.

I was with a woman the other day that really was down to one of, her and two candidates for a job and she goes, "I was so disappointed, this was like the perfect job for me, I really want it, passionate about it", and the girl across the table looked at and she goes, "Well, you should go back to that woman and see how could you work together so you can show her how you can benefit her."

So you want to say why should that employer invest in you?

And have that ready to tell them.

You need to invest in me because I can do this, this and this for this company.

- Yeah, no, I don't know who's in the audience, it's hard to see from here because- - We cannot see anybody.

We are looking at these blinding lights.

- But I would ask the question who are freshman, sophomore, juniors, and seniors.

And for those freshmen that are here, I would say don't wait until your senior year to get an internship, you should be doing that right now.

You pay for all of these great resources on campus and there are a boatload.

You don't just pay to go to class.

You pay the professors to go and seek them out for office hours proactively.

They're a great resource of knowing what employers come on campus.

What are the hot jobs?

That's networking.

You have resources too at your career fair or career center.

I was talking about the Leer Career Center, that's how long I've been off campus here at Michigan State, but I think it's called something else for the College of Business, but take advantage of those things.

They are just as important as showing up for class and doing well in class.

Get involved in organizations.

I think that there are over 400 organizations on Michigan State's campus.

The only reason I know that is because as an employer, we really try to go and find talent in the unusual places.

And so get involved with organizations, whether it be a fraternity or a sorority or whether it be something that you're passionate about.

There are over 400, get involved.

And not only get involved, but be active and learn how to do those leadership, learn leadership skills in a place where you're not held accountable like you would be at an employer.

You're still held accountable, but you are allowed to make those mistakes and learn in that more collegial capacity.

And then the last thing I would say is don't give up.

You must continue to push forward.

And this market is no different than, I graduated college in 1996, it was the same kind of market.

Yeah, we weren't dealing with a pandemic, but heck, jobs were tough to come by.

The one thing that I thought about and I think you both have alluded to it is how do you differentiate yourself?

So I just didn't go to the career center over at Breslin, the career fair over at Breslin Center.

I actually tried to find where the employers were.

Where would I go?

How would I seek them out?

How do I start to get involved in some of the things that they do?

If they have events that they are doing for their organization, that's how you differentiate yourself.

And it's not being a pest, as you said, it's being pleasantly persistent, but I think it's pleasantly persistent with purpose.

And the more that you can demonstrate, not that I'm a 4.0 student, but maybe you're a 2.8 student like I was, but I was involved in not only leadership roles of being a part of a sports team, but I also was involved on campus and I tutored and I made sure that I was involved with organizations that I was passionate about.

And so when I went in to talk about what I could contribute to the organization, I wasn't just talking about, "Hey, see me, you owe me this job", I was trying to demonstrate to them, this is why I would be valuable to your organization.

And if you have that mentality, I think that more times than not, you will be successful, but you can't give up.

You just cannot give up.

You have invested in yourself by being here on campus and saying, this is what I'm gonna do.

Now you have to take that level of investment a step further.

It's just not about getting the degree.

You're here to start your career and not go back home to your parents.

But most importantly it is to really explore everything that's out there.

Do the going abroad, get involved in something that you may not have thought you would ever do.

The time is now to do that.

And all those things are resume builders, believe it or not.

- Yeah, Trina I would add, you touched on something that I think is really important and at this point in my life, I've probably interviewed thousands of people.

One of the things that I look for are people who are involved.

Now that can show up as you're putting yourself through school so you are working and you're figuring out ways to contribute at that work.

It doesn't matter to me whether you're a waitress, a waiter, whether you're a receptionist somewhere, but what are you doing with that?

Because all of those are skills that you learn.

I think getting involved carries forward.

So my observation has been when people are involved and when they get involved, they're working to make it better.

That translates into companies and those are the people I want for Ankara, plain and simple.

So when you see something you don't like or it's broke, I think about Alejandra who's somewhere out there, we work together at Ankara and she's a perfect example, right?

Part of the WLI board and then is incredibly involved at Ankara as well.

So that's been my experience that that carries forward.

So get involved, try it.

- [Host] All great advice.

- I was a Big Boy waitress, put myself through college for seven years.

Still want a good Slim Jim.

- I was gonna say do they have Big Boys?

- Yeah, they still have Big Boys.

- No, I'm just kidding.

- They were really, really ugly uniforms, too.

But not every, I know people take big class loads and even if your parents are paying your way through college, nobody's gonna ask you how many hours did you work in that job.

They'll just say, "Oh," my daughter worked at one of the retail stores here at college, I don't think she worked with maybe one or two days a week, but I said, "You're building your resume."

And when she went to Capitol Hill interviewing, the woman that looked at her resume on Capitol Hill, Chief of Staff, I remember in Congress said, "She's got customer service experience."

So those few things that you're doing, keep doing them, even if it's five hours a week.

- [Brenda] Yeah, absolutely.

- Transferrable skills.

- Well, and one day I picked her up and she was, I said something about vacuuming and she goes, "Mom, I vacuum and clean the toilets."

I go, "I'll maybe have you do that at home now."

- I think that's such a key point 'cause it's hard sometimes, I've worked with my daughter recently and she felt kind of like this doesn't translate to any of this, I have no experience.

And we had that conversation of how do you transfer that skillset to this?

You were responsible for young children, you greeted their parents and made them feel safe.

How can you talk about that in a different way?

And so I think that's a really important skill and something to ask for support in with mentors like you or others to say, how would you think about this being transferred for this position that I'm interested in?

I think that's really good advice.

Exactly.

- You had to problem-solve that.

- I do want to change.

- [Trina] Oh my goodness, I did not know you were such a comedian.

- I told you, I'm not a policy wonk.

- I want to change gears just a little bit again.

- I'm sorry.

- And I want to talk about, again, we talked a lot about how the global pandemic has really been a focal point for all of us.

We've all experienced trauma in some form, but for some, it's been compounded considerably with racial atrocities, continued systemic racism, discrimination.

And research reveals that individuals at intersecting identities, gender, race, LGBTQ plus identity, folks experience higher levels of discrimination in all areas of life and in the workplace.

So how have you navigated the reality of discrimination in your leadership journals?

And can we talk about that intersectionality a little bit and what that looks like, both as you deal with it in your roles and personally, but then also how we need to be thinking about it in terms of as leaders at companies, but also when you're evaluating where you might want to be working, if this is gonna be a good space for you?

Can we talk a little bit about that?

And Trina, I guess I would start with you on.

- Oh, I knew you would start with me.

(women laughing) I have just always, I think it's 'cause my parents raised me as an individual, not that I don't recognize who I am, I've always just thought that I'm at the table or I'm in the room for purpose.

And if others don't see that value, it's not my job to teach them why I'm there.

It's my job to be able to show them the value that I bring.

And so in the instances in my 26 career of people, the microaggressions that happen all the time, I mean all the time, I used to have locks, some people call them dreadlocks, but I don't, I used to have locks that were down to my elbow and I remember I was working on the east coast and it was, that was like the thing, it was super fly, I lived next to a Rastafarian, and I knew like all of these things about the growth of your hair and what it meant and all that other stuff and when I came back to Michigan, I remember my husband saying to me, "Are you gonna go and interview at Ernst and Young with your locks?"

And I was like, I never thought about that.

He was like conservative, no disrespect to EY, I love EY, I talk about them al the time, but I cut them.

And I remember after I cut them, and I got the job, but I remember after I cut them how much I felt like I was doing myself a disservice because I really wasn't coming to the table with being me.

And if they didn't want to hire me because of my hair, guess what, I wouldn't have want to work there.

I think they would have still hired me 'cause obviously I feel very confident about myself.

- What's not to love?

- But that didn't happen overnight.

It was built by the foundation and I'm just so fortunate to have a great family and a great nucleus.

It wasn't just my mom and my dad and their spouses.

It was my sisters and my brother, it was my neighbor, it was the person that I didn't even know about, it was Bridget Cannard, who told me to put on a suit girl and bring your resumes.

It was all these people, the village, that gave me the confidence to know that I needed to be comfortable and confident of what I was bringing to the table.

So for me, it has been forging forward with when there's that village idiot that says something wrong or that person that treats me inequitable, not calling them out in that moment, I've learned better to do that, but taking the moment to be able to teach and that's based on building relationships.

And so for me, I feel like trying to build relationships with people, even if they're jerks, 'cause you got to work with them, it's really you start to unpack maybe why they're a jerk.

You know what I mean?

And it's not like I'm going out to seek, like let me understand why you're this way, but the more you start to learn about people, the more it makes sense of like how they show up.

So it's relationship building and that's what I feel like I've drawn on.

I steer clear of the jerks when I can, but I also call it out in a respectful way because everybody always looks at the second file, they never see the first file.

So I've learned that just being a former basketball player.

So I always take the moment to not show the second file, but I do go in afterwards and I say, "Hey, this is how this made me feel", or, "this is what you did that made this situation like this."

And that's not easy to do.

So that's why I'm encouraging all of you to be involved in social settings in this collegial setting because it's easier when you are doing it around people that you've built relationships with, where it's a little bit easier to kind of forge forward.

I hope that all of you have had those experiences, but let's be honest, I mean we're at a time and a space, not just now, but you know, for years, decades, hundreds of years that this has existed.

And I think the most important thing is being solid on what is important to you, standing true to who you are and knowing your value.

You must know your value.

And if those things you can bring forward, I think everything else works itself out, at least that's been my experience.

- Thank you.

- The only thing I would add, I don't have, that was beautifully stated and you've lived it, so discrimination is not okay.

I don't care where that discrimination is and it's up to all of us, and as women, we've all felt some sort of discrimination.

You've even had to go further being a black person, but we need to call it out when we see it for others and for ourselves and speak up and be loud about it.

And we've got the Me Too movement.

We've seen a lot of progress in that area.

When I first started working, it was rampant.

I didn't even realize the extent of it, that's how naive I was.

I just figured I can do anything, right?

I didn't know until I did go interview at Boston Scientific, they made me a senior VP, took the job- - You earned a Senior VP.

- Huh?

- You earned a Senior VP.

- I earned, yes ma'am, yes ma'am.

See, how we even speak about ourselves.

We're imposters.

So I found out, I was part of this operating committee group, and he said something about getting these stipends, I go, "I'm not getting those stipends."

And there's three women out of, I don't know, 20 of us.

And I finally realized they had offered me and given me, earned the job as senior vice-president only that I was graded a vice president.

So I'm thinking, okay, so I was lied to, that's discrimination so I had to go speak up for myself and I made the case of why that wasn't okay of what they did and then they made it whole, but you have to speak up, you have to take charge, and I'm not saying you have to be ridiculously crazy about it, you got to make your case and you have to say why they need to make it right.

- Yeah.

Given what I do for a living, right, I get to see those kinds of things and have certainly experienced them personally in my own life.

I'll never forget, not at the company I am with now, let me just be very clear, but in a couple of companies ago walked into a board meeting, was the only woman, and there were no chairs left, and the CEO asked if I would, patted his leg and I could sit on his lap.

And those things happen, right, and those are really defining moments, right?

And I can think back and play that back a thousand times and at the time I'm fairly quick on my feet and I kind of said something witty and moved forward.

What I think was even more telling is that one of the board members reached out after to actually check in and to let me know that they would be addressing that.

So I think there's one thing when it kind of happens to you in the moment and you find your voice, and I would encourage you to find your voice, seek to understand, right, very much to your point, understand where that came from, intentional, unintentional, doesn't actually matter, it's really sort of how it makes you feel or how it felt to you and being comfortable saying that, but I think it is just as important for all of us, men, women, white people, people of color, when you see that, address it, right?

And ideally in every company in corporate America, we're creating environments where people can have those conversations.

And that's not easy to do, but the more that that happens, the more there will be a sense of belonging.

And so figuring out kind of the words you want to use when you find yourself in that moment is really important 'cause then you'll have it ready to go.

I hope it doesn't happen, but I think sometimes even if it's not about your gender or your color or your religion or your intellect, people make mistakes.

And so knowing how you want to handle those things in advance is incredibly, I think it's incredibly empowering and I'd encourage you surround yourself right now here with people who aren't like you.

Get into debates, figure out how to problem solve with people who are nothing like you, who are politically different, who look different, who have different values and beliefs, because that is the world and the more we can figure out how to embrace our differences and learn from one another and be okay sometimes disagreeing, I think it will be much, much easier for all of us to show up as our authentic selves.

- Well said, thank you.

I want to transition now to some questions that we received from participants in the audience, and these are likely undergrad students who are thinking about their futures.

And this first question is, "When students enter their professional careers, how can we uplift other women, especially women of color?

What can we do now as students?"

So you touched on that a bit, but do you have further comments on that?

- I would say amplify So we, as women, need to shout out other women and their accomplishment.

And so it's like, "Angela, that is a great point you just made.

Let's go take that to the sales organization 'cause we can really see some growth with that."

When you're sitting around the table, acknowledge other's accomplishments, especially women.

And real quick and then we'll let the others speak, but the Obama administration, they started doing that, the women in the Obama administration, and it became clear that the president wanted to listen to these women because they were doing that, they were amplifying when they were in the room, making the point of, "Susie, such a great point on that.

Let's blah, blah, blah, blah, blah."

So amplify.

- I think we also have to share.

You know you talked about this earlier, there were so limited opportunities that maybe women weren't more helping one another.

So I think that you know, my goal is to share as much as I can with whomever.

And so trying to make sure that you share those pitfalls, share those successes, share those obstacles and how you persevere through them, I think is so valuable.

And I also think it's valuable to demonstrate your excellence by being excellent.

And I think that that also helps others, build a pathway for others.

I think the more that honestly white men do more of what you just said, I think we would solve this problem, it's no disrespect to white men, but I think that the more white men take this as an ownership and not the people who have been oppressed, I think that we would have greater outcomes.

And so I would charge all of our men to stand up, those that are in leadership, and make the stand of this is important, not only to me as an organization, if you're leading the organizations, which many white men are, but also those that are leading groups to stand up and say that this is valuable to me and this is what I'm gonna do to contribute to bring others along.

And it's not about the savior syndrome.

It's really about leveraging that position of power to open up pathways for others.

And so I think that that's what's most important that has to happen in order for the change to happen, to be honest.

- Well said.

- I don't know that I have anything to add other than spot on.

I mean I do, I think it is very, success isn't limited.

And so if you genuinely care about your colleague's success, I think it gets easy to amplify or it gets easy to say, "Hey, I heard about a great opportunity over here."

And I think to your point relative to working around men, consulting for a long time has been, particularly in the consulting I'm in, is a fairly male-dominated environment.

I feel really fortunate to work for an organization and for a CEO today who, for a lot of people who do what I do, it's pretty internally focused.

One of the things that had always been a part of my career aspirations was to do the kind of work I do internally, externally.

I finally work for a CEO who's willing to enable that.

And so I do think, right, there's a lot about A, having the courage to speak up and kind of say what you want and what your aspirations are and B, surrounding yourself and choosing companies that are gonna embrace that.

But you gotta do good work, that's the first part of it.

- All right, we have about two minutes and I have a question for you.

Why do women still get paid significantly less than their male counterparts in the workplace?

- You said why?

(women laughing) - I will field that one 'cause I get that question a lot.

- And how can women effectively negotiate for a higher salary or pay without coming off as rude?

- First of all, I think, well, I'll sort of be flippant here, said no man ever asking for an increase is rude, right?

So I would just start there.

Again, I believe fundamentally it starts with work with excellence, know your value, right Trina you said that earlier, know your value.

You know, I think there are so many ways to shift this.

First is as you're interviewing and negotiating, don't negotiate with yourself.

Someone's gonna ask salary expectations, you certainly can share that, but I would also encourage you not to negotiate with yourself.

I think great answer is I expect to be paid fairly for the role that I'm doing.

I think companies have a tremendous responsibility to look themselves in the mirror and make sure that they are paying fairly and equitably and given roles like mine, I'm held accountable for that.

That is the expectation in our company that we are looking at that at all times and making sure that that's happening.

So I welcome other- - Well there's one book, if you're out there in the video land, Alexandra Carter, "Ask for More: 10 Questions to Negotiate."

I just listened to her workshop, she's got some online stuff, phenomenal and talks about all of this.

So I would highly recommend this book.

I've got it, I've started it, but I watched her workshop for an hour and a half and I was blown away by this woman.

- Yeah and I think it's, listen, I think so many leaders and managers shy away from having compensation conversations.

My team's out there listening, probably gonna have a line out my door, but all kidding aside, it's an important part of why we all go to work, it's how we put a roof over our head and food on the table.

And so I think knowing your value and also when you go in and ask for a raise or you negotiate your starting salary, it should be followed by the value that you're going to add, right?

That's important, right, it's balance of trade.

So it's not just about how much money you can get, it's about the contribution that you're gonna make to your company.

- I am, I don't really, we got all those signs up there to say we're over- - Oh whoops, sorry.

- I just want to add one little thing.

I think that one thing that I've learned is never chasing money because if you chase money, which is what people are I think doing right now in this great resignation is chasing money.

If you chase money, you'll find yourselves not in a position where you really like what you do.

And when those days are hard, you're not thinking about what your paycheck is, you're thinking about what value do you contribute and what value do does the organization see in me?

And so all the things that they said, of course I agree with, but I also think that making sure that you're not just chasing a certain number, but that you're balancing that out with what the responsibilities are and what you bring to the table as you articulated.

So I think it's important not just to look for the highest paying role, but look for that organization that has an inclusive environment and not just saying inclusive environment, what are their values?

How do you learn from others?

You talked about LinkedIn.

You can see who works at that company, reach out to them.

What is it like to work each and every day here?

Those things are so valuable.

Yes, compensation matters.

Trust me, I believe that 1,000%, but it also was balanced with what the environment is like that you work in 'cause you can make a boatload of money and work in a very crappy environment and that's not good at all either so I think it's having that balance of both.

- Work for a good leader first.

- Thank you so much, Brenda, Trina, Angela.

I'm sorry, my brain is spinning with all the advice you've given, I'm trying to remember the names of the books.

The stream I think will be available so you can look that up.

And I just want to thank you three.

You've been really fantastic and offered some amazing advice to everyone in the room and who's listening on the live stream and help me, please join with me in thanking the panel for coming tonight, thank you so much.

- Fabulous, fabulous moderator.

- Thank you so much and I also want to thank the Women's Leadership Institute and so many of the board members are here tonight and the College of Social Science and Michigan State University.

What a fabulous event to put on for all of you and thank you for taking advantage of that.

You're already way ahead of the game in following the advice that these women have given.

So thanks to everyone and have a great evening.

- Go green!

- Go white!

- Awesome, this was great, ladies.

- Thank you so much.

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