>> THERE ARE MEN WHO GET CAUGHT UP AND ACCUSED UNFAIRLY.

MAYBE ME TOO IS GOING TOO FAR.

>> I SAY THAT'S A COP OUT.

I BECAME A FEMINIST BECAUSE I DIDN'T LIKE PHILLY MALE BULLIES BUT I ALSO DON'T LIKE FEMALE BULLIES.

>> AS A TRANSGENDER WOMAN, YOU EXPECT THINGS TO HAPPEN BUT WHEN IT DOES IT'S A VERY DIFFICULT THING.

♪ YOU.

THANK YOU.

NOW, "IN PRINCIPLE," WITH MICHAEL GERSON AND AMY HOLMES.

MICHAEL: WELCOME TO "IN PRINCIPLE."

FROM THE BATTLEFIELD TO THE BATHROOMS TO THE BOARDROOMS, AGENDAER HAS BEEN AT THE TOP OF THE NATIONAL CONVERSATION.

TODAY WE'LL EXPLORE THE ME-TO MOVEMENT AND MORE.

AMY: LATER IN THE SHOW.

SCHOLAR CHRISTINA HOFF SOMMERS JOIGS US AND SHE SAYS THE ME TOO MOVEMENT CAN GO TOO FAR.

AND JENNIFER WILLIAMS ON WHAT IT WAS LIKE TO BE THE FIRST OPENLY TRANSGENDER DELEGATE TO THE REPUBLICAN NATIONAL CONVENTION.

NOW WE WANTS TO WELCOME IN GRETCHEN CARLSON.

SHE'S BEEN A TRAIL BLAZER OF THE ME TOO MOVEMENT SINCE EXPOSING HER FORMER BOSS AT FOX, ROGER AILES.

THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.

WE WELCOME -- WELL APPRECIATE IT.

GRETCHEN: THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

WE'RE GLAD TO HAVE YOU.

GRETCHEN: THANKS, MICHAEL.

YOU ARE CREDITED WITH BRINGING DOWN ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL MEN IN THE NEWS BUSINESS.

AND THEN WE'VE SEEN AN EXTRAORDINARY DOMINO EFFECT OUT OF THAT.

DID YOU EXPECT THAT TO HAPPEN?

GRETCHEN: NEVER.

I MEAN, I HAD NO IDEA WHAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN TO ME THE NEXT MINUTE AFTER I FILED MY LAWSUIT OR THE NEXT DAY.

AND VERY SOON AFTER MY STORY BROKE, I WAS ACTUALLY BUOYED BY THE THOUSANDS OF WOMEN WHO REACHED OUT TO ME TO SHARE THEIR OWN STORIES OF PAIN AND SHAME.

AND LOOK WHERE WE ARE TODAY.

I MEAN, IT'S REALLY A CULTURAL REVOLUTION.

SO, GRETCHEN, WAS THERE A PERSONAL COST TO YOU FOR COMING FORWARD?

GRETCHEN: SURE, BUT I DON'T KNOW IF I WAS COMPLETELY PREPARED FOR THE IMMENSE NEGATIVITY.

BUT I WANT TO COUNTER THAT BY SAYING THAT I ALSO RECEIVED AMAZING, POSITIVE SUPPORT.

AND I THINK ONE OF THE MOST SURPRISING THINGS WAS HOW MANY MEN REACHED OUT TO ME.

MICHAEL: INTERESTING.

AMY: WOW.

REALLY?

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?

GRETCHEN: BECAUSE I THINK THAT MEN ARE HAVING A REAL AWAKENING RIGHT NOW.

AND HERE'S WHAT THEY SAY TO ME, THANK YOU FOR MY DAUGHTERS.

I THINK ANY MAN WHO HAS EVEN A SON OR ESPECIALLY A DAUGHTER, THEY WERE SEEING THESE DEVELOPMENTS AND THESE HORRIFIC ALLEGATIONS COME FORWARD, AND THEY WERE THINKING, WOW, THIS IS STILL GOING ON, IN 2018?

AND SO I THINK THAT THEY ARE TRULY THANKFUL THAT MAYBE THIS WILL STOP THEIR CHILDREN FROM EXPERIENCING WHAT I FACED AND WHAT SO MANY OTHER COUNTLESS WOMEN AND MEN HAVE FACED.

AMY: SO, GRETCHEN, YOU'RE SEEING THAT POSITIVE PROGRESS, THOSE POSITIVE RESULTS.

BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE ALSO SEEING THAT THERE ARE MEN WHO GET CAUGHT UP AND ACCUSED UNFAIRLY.

AND THAT MAYBE ME TOO IS GOING TOO FAR AND ACCUSING PEOPLE THAT DON'T DESERVE IT.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT?

GRETCHEN: I SAY THAT THAT'S A COPOUT.

AMY: A COPOUT?

SO YOU DON'T THINK THAT THERE ARE ANY FALSE -- GRETCHEN: THERE MAY BE A FEW -- AMY: I MEAN, LET'S REMEMBER THE "ROLLING STONE" COVER STORY OF A YOUNG WOMAN ACCUSING A U.V.A.

FRATERNITY -- GRETCHEN: YES.

AND IT TURNED OUT SHE WAS NEARLY PSYCHOTIC IN THE LEVEL OF LIES THAT SHE WAS TELLING.

GRETCHEN: TOTALLY.

RIGHT.

D HERE'S THE PROBLEM WITH THE FALSE STORIES AND THE POSITIVE.

THE FALSE GET THE SAME AMOUNT OF MEDIA ATTENTION OR EVEN MORE THAN THE REAL STORIES.

D SO, THE PERCEPTION IN THE PUBLIC IS THAT IT'S EQUAL FOOTING -- 50% FALSE STORIES, AND 50% REAL.

AND THAT'S NOT TRUE AT ALL.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE ANALYSIS, IT'S A VERY, VERY SMALL PERCENTAGE OF WOMEN, MAYBE 3% TO 4%, WHO WOULD GO TO THOSE LENGTHS TO MAKE UP A STORY LIKE THAT.

WHAT ABOUT ALL THE WOMEN WHO HAVE LOST THEIR PROFESSIONS FOR SIMPLY HAVING THE COURAGE TO COME FORWARD ABOUT HARASSMENT AND WERE PROMPTLY BLACKLISTED, DEMOTED, AND FIRED.

AND 99.9% OF THEM THAT REACHED OUT TO ME HAVE NEVER WORKED IN THEIR CHOSEN PROFESSIONS EVER AGAIN.

AND THAT IS OUTRAGEOUS, TO HAVE THE AMERICAN DREAM STRIPPED FROM THOUSANDS AND MAYBE MILLIONS OF WOMEN SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY WERE BRAVE.

IT JUST -- IT ALARMED ME THAT THIS EPIDEMIC IS PERVASIVE.

IT CROSSES EVERY SOCIO-ECONOMIC LINE, EVERY RACE, EVERY PROFESSION.

IT'S FOOT JUST WALL STREET BANKERS AND WELL-KNOWN JOURNALISTS AND FAMOUS HOLLYWOOD ACTRESSES, OK?

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT MEMBERS OF OUR MILITARY.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT POLICE OFFICERS, FIREFIGHTERS, TEACHERS, ACCOUNTANTS, OIL RIG OPERATORS.

I MEAN, I'VE HEARD FROM EVERYONE.

AND THAT, TO ME, WAS WHY I HAD TO WORK SO HARD ON THIS MISSION.

MICHAEL: THESE ISSUES AREN'T ALWAYS EASY.

HOW DO YOU MAKE A DISTINCTION BETWEEN BOORISH BEHAVIOR AND HARASSMENT?

GRETCHEN: WE'VE SEEN TITANS FROM BOTH SIDES FALL, WITH HORRIFIC ALLEGATIONS, THAT ARE CRIMINAL.

SOMEBODY WHO IS IN THE FOREFRONT OF THIS MOVEMENT, I THINK THAT WE HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL IN THE WAY THAT WE ANALYZE THE ALLEGATIONS, AND NOT BE TOO SWIFT.

AND AT THE SAME TIME, WE HAVE TO DECIPHER BETWEEN WHAT SENATOR FRANKEN WAS ACCUSED OF DOING, ALBEIT INAPPROPRIATE, AND WHAT HARVEY WEINSTEIN DID.

TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS.

SO WE DO HAVE TO PAY ATTENTION TO THE DIFFERENT DEGREES OF HARASSMENT AND ASSAULT.

WHAT DO YOU ADVISE YOUNG WOMEN WHO EXPERIENCE THIS, BUT THEY CAN'T AFFORD TO LOSE THEIR JOBS, OR THEY'RE AT THE EARLY PART OF THEIR CAREER AND DON'T WANT A REPUTATION FOR BEING A TROUBLEMAKER.

THESE ARE TOUGH ISSUES.

WHAT DO YOU SAY?

GRETCHEN: COLLECTIVELY, WE HAVE STRENGTH IN NUMBERS.

SO MY RECOMMENDATION TO YOUNG PEOPLE IS TO COLLECTIVELY HAVE THAT VOICE TOGETHER IN YOUR WORKPLACE.

I HAVE TO TELL YOU I'VE BEEN ON A COLLEGE CAMPUS TOUR.

I SPECIFICALLY WANTED TO GET TO YOUNG PEOPLE.

AND THE MOST AMAZING THING IS THAT I HAVE JUST AS MANY MEN IN THE AUDIENCE AS I DO YOUNG WOMEN.

AND MILLENNIALS ESPECIALLY LIKE TO WORK TOGETHER FOR A COMMON GOOD.

AND SPECIFICALLY ON THIS ISSUE, THEY REALLY WANT TO COME TOGETHER AND HAVE A STRONG VOICE.

SO MY HOPE IS THAT COLLECTIVELY WHEN THEY COME INTO THE WORKPLACE, THAT THEY WILL DECIDE TO WORK TOGETHER, MAN AND WOMAN, TO ATTACK THIS ISSUE.

MICHAEL: IT'S FASCINATING TO ME THIS HAS HAPPENED DURING THE TRUMP ERA.

IS HAVING A PRESIDENT WHO HAS BOASTED ACTUALLY OF ASSAULTING WOMEN, HAS THAT MADE THE MOVEMENT STRONGER OR UNDERMINED IT?

GRETCHEN: I THINK IT'S ACTUALLY MADE THE MOVEMENT STRONGER.

A LOT OF WOMEN WERE UPSET THAT THOSE NUMEROUS ALLEGATIONS WERE AROUND FOR A VERY SHORT PERIOD OF TIME, AND THEN DISAPPEARED.

AMY: WELL, THE VOTERS, THEY SAW THE ALLEGATIONS, AND THEY PULLED THE LEVER ANYWAY.

GRETCHEN: THEY DID.

AMY: SO HAVE WE SEEN A CULTURAL TRANSFORMATION IF SOMETHING LIKE THAT CAN HAPPEN?

GRETCHEN: WE ARE.

BALLS WE'RE SEEING THIS AMAZING MOVEMENT HAPPEN AT THE SAME TIME THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS ELECTED.

I DO THINK THAT IT HAS BEEN A MOBILIZING FORCE FOR WOMEN TO HAVE EVEN A STRONGER VOICE.

MICHAEL: HOW HAS THE ME TOO MOVEMENT CHANGED YOUR WORLD?

GRETCHEN: I'M BLESSED TO HAVE A 14 YEAR OLD DAUGHTER AND A 13 YEAR OLD SON.

AND I LIKE TO INCLUDE BOTH OF THEM, BECAUSE REALLY WHERE I SHOULD BE SPENDING MOST OF MY TIME IS WITH YOUNG MEN.

AMY: WHY IS THAT?

GRETCHEN: BECAUSE WE ARE ALREADY DOING A GREAT JOB OF EMPOWERING OUR YOUNG GIRLS.

THEY PERFORM BEAUTIFULLY ACADEMICALLY.

THEY GO TO COLLEGE.

THEY GRADUATE AT A HIGHER RATE THAN YOUNG MEN NOW.

THEY GET INTO THE PROFESSIONAL WORD SUCCESSFULLY.

BUT IT'S OUR YOUNG MEN WHO WE REALLY HAVE TO EDUCATE ABOUT HOW TO HONOR AND RESPECT WOMEN SO THAT THEY CARRY THOSE SAME VALUES AND EDUCATIONAL SKILLS INTO THE WORKPLACE.

THAT IS WHERE I SHOULD BE SPEAKING ALMOST EVERY SINGLE DAY.

BECAUSE IF I'VE ONLY CHANGED THE LIVES OF MY TWO CHILDREN, AND MY SON HAS SAID -- IF THAT IS ALL I'VE ACCOMPLISHED THROUGH THIS, THEN THAT'S BEEN ENOUGH FOR ME, BUT I KNOW IT'S SO MUCH MORE.

AMY: AND I KNOW YOU'VE ACCOMPLISHED THAT AND MORE.

AND WE APPRECIATE YOU COMING HERE TO SHARE YOUR INSIGHTS WITH US.

GRETCHEN: IT'S GREAT TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU.

AMY: ABOUT 57% OF WOMEN AND 27% OF MENTAL SAY THEY'VE RECEIVED UNWANTED SEXUAL ADVANCES OR SOME KIND OF VERBAL OR SEXUAL HARASSMENT INSIDE OR OUTSIDE THE WORKPLACE AND HERE TO TELL US HOW THE ME-TOO MOVEMENT CAN DIVIDE US IS CHRISTINA HOFF SOMMERS.

SHE'S THE AUTHOR OF "WAR AGAINST BOYS" AND A SCHOLAR AT THE AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE.

CHRISTINA, WELCOME.

CRAIG: HAPPY TO BE HERE.

MICHAEL: AS YOU SAW THE ME TOO MOVEMENT GAIN MOMENTUM, WHAT CONCERNS DID YOU HAVE?

CHRISTINA: INITIALLY, I WELCOMED IT AS AN OPPORTUNITY.

PEOPLE CALL IT A RECKONING FOR MEN AND WOMEN TORENEGOTIATE THE SOCIAL CONTRACT.

I JUST BECAME WORRIED THAT IT COULD - THIS MOVEMENT, THIS NECESSARY MOVEMENT - COULD BE HIJACKED BY PEOPLE WITH STRANGE AGENDAS.

MICHAEL: AND WAS IT?

CHRISTINA: YOU'VE SEEN PEOPLE THAT HAVE KEPT LISTS.

ANONYMOUS INFORMANTS PUTTING LISTS ON THE INTERNET AND NAMING NAMES FOR MEN WHO MIGHT NOT BE GUILTY.

SO THERE'S SOME VIGILANTISM, SOME TACTICS THAT WORRY ME.

IT'S GOING TO DISCREDIT THE MOVEMENT AND I'M AFRAID IT'S ALREADY HAPPIED.

I'VE LOOKED AT POLLS, AND PEOPLE ARE BEGINNING TO BE WORRIED ABOUT JUST DIMINISHED - PEOPLE ARE WORRIED ABOUT FALSE ACCUSATIONS, AND HOW DO YOU DEFEND YOURSELF?

AMY: CHRISTINA, IS THAT INEVITABLE?

BILL COSBY, FOUND GUILTY OF SEXUAL ASSAULT.

HE WAS TRIED IN A COURT OF LAW.

BUT WITH ME TOO WHAT'S HAPPENING IS, MEN ARE BEING TRIED IN THE COURT OF PUBLIC OPINION.

CHRISTINA: AND ON SOCIAL MEDIA.

WHICH IS MERCILESS.

AMY: SO IS IT INEVITABLE THAT THERE ARE GOING TO BE PEOPLE WHO ARE SCOOPED UP IN THE NET UNFAIRLY AND THAT'S JUST PART OF HOW IT'S GOING TO CHRISTINA: WELL, YES, BUT THERE ARE WAYS TO PREVENT THAT FROM HAFPLGT IF THIS IS GOING TO WORK, IT'S GOING TO BE MEN AND WOMEN TOGETHER.

MEN AND WOMEN COMMITTED TO MUTUAL UNDERSTANDING AND TO SORT OF GETTING THE WORKPLACE UP TO 11ST CENTURY STANDARDS.

THAT HAS TO BE DONE.

BUT IT'S NOT WOMEN AGAINST MEN.

AND I HAVE HEARD PEOPLE -- FOR EXAMPLE, MATT DAMON MADE SOME VERY REASONABLE COMMENTS ON AN ABC INTERVIEW.

BUT HE SAID WE SHOULD KEEP CERTAIN DISTINCTIONS IN MIND.

HE SAID, YOU KNOW, RAPING SOMEONEISN'T THE SAME AS, YOU KNOW, PATTING SOMEONE ON THE BUTT.

AND SO THERE WAS - AMY: THERE WAS A HUGE BACKLASH TO THOSE REMARKS.

CHRISTINA: HUGE BACKLASH.

PEOPLE -- 2028,000 SIGNATURES ON A PETITION TO GET HIM REMOVED FROM A FILM.

OUR BASIC,OUR MORAL SYSTEM, OUR LEGAL SYSTEM, DEPENDS ON THE ABILITY TO DRAW DISTINCTIONS BETWEEN BAD AND WORSE.

AND SO, AN AL FRANKEN IS NOT THE SAME AS A HARVEY WEINSTEIN.

AMY: WE SPOKE WITH GRETCHEN CARLSON, WHO LED TO THE DOWNFALL OF ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL MEN IN THE NEWS BUSINESS AND SHE SAID WE NEED TO RAISE OUR BOYS BETTER, MORE OR LESS.

I'M PARAPHRASING.

DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT?

CHRISTINA: WELL, I THINK WE HAVE TO RAISE OUR KIDS BETTER.

BOY IS WILL PRETTY MUCH BEHAVE THE WAY GIRLS ALLOW THEM TOO, TALKING ABOUT ADOLESCENTS AND COLLEGE KIDS AND SO FORTH.

SO IF WE WANT TO IMPROVE THE SORT OF COME PORTMENT OF BOYS AND GIRLS, IT'S NOT JUST THE BOYS.

IT'S THE GIRLS TOO.

AIMY: SO WHAT DO GIRLS HAVE TO DO?

ARE YOU BLAMING THE VICTIM?

CHRISTINA: NO, I'M NOT BLAMING THE VICTIM BUT I THINK WE DO HAVE A SORT OF CRISIS OF JUST CIVILITY AND THERE'S JUST TOO MUCH OUTRAGEOUS MEANNESS AND I HOPE GRETCHEN WASN'T IMPLYING THAT THE AVERAGE COLLEGE BOY IS A HARASSER.

THE AVERAGE COLLEGE BOY PROBABLY WANTS A GIRLFRIEND AND IS PROBABLY A NICE GUY.

THERE ARE SOME BULLIES, SOME CHAUVINISTS AND THAT'S A PROBLEM.

THAT'S WHY I WELCOME THE ME TOO AT THE COLLEGE LEVEL AND CERTAINLY THE WORKPLACE.

WE WANTS TO SEND A CLEAR MESSAGE THAT WON'T BE PERMITTED.

MICHAEL: YOU'VE WARNED OF A NEW PURITANISM, RITHESD?

AND HOW DO YOU DEFINE THAT?

CHRISTINA: I CALL IT FAINTING COUCH FEMINISM.

REMINDS ME OF 19TH-CENTURY LADIES WHO WOULD CLAMS OF AN ELEGANT CHAILS BECAUSE A MAN SAID SOMETHING THAT WAS SLILET SLIGHTLY DISTURBING.

AMY: SAW MY ANKLES.

CHRISTINA: RIGHT.

THEY'RE TRIGGERED AND HAVE TO BE IN A SAFE PLACE IN THE FACE OF MALE VULGARITY.

THAT SEEMS TO BE TAKING THE WOMEN'S MOVEMENTS IN THE WRONG DIRECTION.

WE'RE EQUAL TO MEN AND IF A MAN DOES SOMETHING YOU DON'T LIKE, TELL HIM SO.

AMY: THE ME TOO MOVEMENT DID EX-- SHOW THAT THE -- A LOT OF MEN EXPLOIT WOMEN IN THE WORK PLACE SO DID FEMME ANALYSTS ACTUALLY HAVE SOMETHING RIGHT ABOUT IT IS A MAN'S WORLD?

CHRISTINA: I TRIED TO LOOK AT THE BEST DATA I COULD.

IF YOU HAVE A WORK PLACE WHERE THEY DO HAVE A REASONABLE ANTI-HARASSMENT POIFLS AND YOU HAVE A LEADER, BOSS, MANAGERS WHO BELIEVE IN IT AND IT'S VERY UNLIKELY THAT YOU'LL HAVE MUCH OF A PROBLEM.

THIS WAS A LOT OF INDUSTRIALS THAT WERE NOT AS WELL REGULATED, WHERE PEOPLE WORK IN UNUSUAL ENVIRONMENTS.

MICHAEL: IN SOME CASES IT WASN'T JUST ONE CREAM.

IT WAS KIND OF A SYSTEM THAT PROTECTED HIM.

CHRISTINA: USUALLY PROTECTING A CELEBRITY.

CHARLIE ROSE, HARVEY WEINSTEIN.

MICHAEL: AND THERE WERE WOMEN INVOLVED.

AMY: THE WOMEN WERE ACTIVE PAR TILLS PANTS.

CHRISTINA: THAT'S WHY I DON'T THINK IT'S SIMPLE MALE/FEMALE AND I DON'T THINK IT'S ALL INDUSTRIES.

BUT WE'VE SEEN A PATHOLOGY AND WE NOW RECOGNIZE IT AND I'M CONVINCED THINGS ARE GOING TO BE BETTER FOR WOMEN.

I BECAME A FEMINIST IN THE 1970'S BECAUSE I DIDN'T LIKE MALE BULLIES.

I STILL DON'T, BUT I ALSO DON'T LIKE FEMALE BILL -- BULLIES AND I HAVE SEEN SOME BULLIES EMERGE IN THIS MOVEMENT.

THEY'RE ENRAGED AT MALES.

THEY'RE EAGER TO IMPLICATE THE AVERAGE GUY IN SOME SORT OF SOCIAL PATHOLOGY AND THAT'S NOT FAIR.

MICHAEL: DO YOU THINK THE ME TOO MOVEMENT IS GOING TO HELP TRANSGENDER PEOPLE, GAPE AND LESBIAN PEOPLE, AS IT MOVES GUARD?

CHRISTINA: I THINK WE'RE LIVING IN A PERIOD, AND THIS, TOO, AS A LIBERTARIAN, FEMME ANALYST.

MORE AN OLD-FASHIONED LIBERAL BUT I THINK IT'S AN ERA WHERE THE SOCIETY IS MUCH MORE TOLERANT AND ACCEPTING OF PEOPLE WHO DON'T FIT A RIGID GENDER MOLD AND I WELCOME THAT I JUST THINK THAT'S THE WAY TO PROGRESS.

WHAT I DON'T WELCOME IS ALL OF THE POLICING.

I THINK THAT TRANSGENDER AND GAY PEOPLE ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE ACCEPTED IF THE APPROACH IS THROUGH FRIENDSHIP AND JUST, YOU KNOW, EXPLAINING THEMSELVES AND HUMOR.

THERE'S TOO MUCH OF THIS CALLOUT AND CHECK YOUR PRIVILEGE AND, DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT DOES?

IT JUST MAKES PEOPLE MAD.

THEY MIGHT NOT SAY THINGS BUT THEY'LL THINK THEM AND GO UNDERGROUND ARE ON THE SCOMBERNLT BE ENRAGED.

THAT'S NOT THE WAY TO PROGRESS.

THE WAY TO PROGRESS IS COMMUNICATION AND KINDNESS.

AMY: ARE YOU OPTIMISTIC ABOUT THE WAR OF THE SEXES BEING RESOLVED OR -- CHRISTINA: I GO BACK AND FORTH.

SOMETIMES I THINK AH, WE'RE LIVING IN A PINK POLICE STATE.

OTHER TIMES I THINK -- FIRST OF ALL FIRST OF ALL, MY SONS TELL ME IT'S MOTTE REALLY HAPPENING.

MOST GIRLS ARE STILL NICE, NOT ANGRY GENDER WARRIORS.

SO I'M SORT OF OPTIMISTIC.

YOU ALWAYS HAVE TO HOLD ON TO FIRST PRINCIPLES ABOUT FAIRNESS, KINDNESS AND BEING REASONABLE.

AMY: AND THOSE ARE JUST -- AREN'T JUST FEMME ANALYST PRINCIPLES.

THEY'RE HUMAN PRELVES.

CHRISTINA: THAT'S RIGHT, THAT'S WHAT WE NEED.

MICHAEL: THANK YOU SO MUCH.

AND NOW A DIFFERENT KIND OF TRAIL BLAZER.

JENNIFER WILLIAMS IS A NEW JERSEY REPUBLICAN COMMITTEE DELEGATE.

THANK YOU SOME FOR JOINING US.

JENNIFER: THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR HAVING ME ON TODAY.

AMY: YOU ARE A LIFELONG REPUBLICAN.

JENNIFER: YES, I AM.

AMY: VERY UNUSUAL.

A LOT OF THE TRANSGENDER COMMUNITY SUPPORTS THE DEMOCRATIC SIDE OF THE AISLE.

WHAT DO YOU WANT TO SEE THE .COMADDRESS IN TRANSGENDER ISSUES?

JENNIFER: I WANT TO SEE THE GOODBYE TO TAKE UP AND VOICE SOME OF THOSE ISSUES.

I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO DEPEND ON DEMOCRATS TO DO THAT.

A LOT OF DEMOCRATS ARE BUT THERE HAVE BEEN DEMOCRATS WHO VOTED FOR RB 2 IN NORTH CAROLINA.

THAT WAS A STATE LAW THAT WAS PROPOSE TOLD RISKET ACCESS, PUBLIC ACCOMMODATIONS FOR THE GREATER A -- LGBT COMMUNITIES AND NORTH CAROLINA BUT PARTICULARLY RESTRICT USE OF RESTROOMS FOR TRANSGENDER PEOPLE.

THEY DELIBERATELY TARGETED TRANSGENDER WOMEN BALLS THERE'S A BOGEYMAN IMAGE OF US BEING SOMEONE WHO WOULD ASSAULT SOMEONE IN THE RESTROOM WHEN IN FACTS WE'RE THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE THE MOST FEAR ABOUT BEING IN THE SAME RESTROOM.

THERE WAS A LAW PASSED IN TEXAS.

MISSISSIPPI HAS TRIED TO PASS ONE.

WHEN YOU TARGET ONE AREA, IT LEADS TO EMPLOYMENT AND HOUSING DISCRIMINATION.

MEDICAL CARE DISCRIMINATION AND IT'S ALSO TRYING TO ERASE US FROM THE AMERICAN PUBLIC LIFE.

MICHAEL: DOES THE ME TOO MOVEMENT PROVIDE INSPIRATION FOR TRANSGENDER PEOPLE?

JENNIFER: IT DEFINITELY DOES BECAUSE AS WOMEN, WE ALSO SUFFER WITH SOME OF THE OTHER THINGS THAT THE OTHER WOMEN HAVE HAD HAPPEN TO THEM.

AS SOMEONE WHO'S TRANSITIONED AND AS A FEARBLINGS I CAN TELL YOU WILL STORIES THAT JUST EVEN HAVING GENTLEMEN YELL THINGS TO ME THAT ARE SEXUALLY EXPLICIT AND EVEN AS A TRANSGENDER WOMAN, YOU EXPECT CERTAIN THINGS TO HAPPEN REGARDING SEXUAL HARASSMENT, D. ISSUES BUT WHEN IT ACTUALLY HAPPENS TO YOU, IT'S A VERY DIFFICULT THING AND WHEN IT COMES TO THE EMPLOYMENT END OF HARASSMENT, THINGS THAT HAVE HAPPENED TO OTHER WOMEN -- THANKFULLY, I HAVEN'T HAD AM OF THE WORST THINGS HAPPEN BUT I DO KNOW TRANSGENDER WOMEN THAT HAS HAPPENED TO ALSO.

MICHAEL: LIKE WHAT?

JENNIFER: SEXUAL ASSAULT.

BEING DEMEANED.

BEING PASSED OVER FOR PROMOTIONS.

HAVING SUPERVISORS WHO ASK CERTAIN THINGS FOR VACATIONS TO HAPPEN.

ONE OF THE THINGS I THINK WE CAN BRING TO THIS THAT WOMEN CAN'T NECESSARILY DO ON THEIR OWN IS THAT WE'VE HAD TO LIVE LIVES WITH MEN AND TRIED TO BE MEN IN A SENSE AND BEING RAISED WITH THAT IDEA AND STEREOTYPE OF HOW BOYS ARE SUPPOSED TO ACT AND IT'S NOT ALL LOCKER ROOM TALK AND I'M HOPING THAT WE CAN BE PART OF THAT DISCUSSION GOING FORWARD BECAUSE I THINK IT'S A VERY POSITIVE AND EMPOWERING MOVEMENT.

SO I'M HOPING WE CAN BE PART OF THIS GOING FORWARD.

MICHAEL: IS THERE A FRICTION OR TENSION BETWEEN BEING TRANSAGENDAER AND BEING CONSERVATIVE?

HOW DOES THAT FIT?

JENNIFER: FOR ME IT FITS A LOT EASIER THAN FOLKS ON THE LEFT WOULD SAME.

BECAUSE I BELIEVE IN SMALL GOVERNMENT, IN FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY, A STRONG DEFENSE AND I ALSO ANY THAT EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS AND LIBERTIES THAT ARE IN OUR CONSTITUTION IN THE SPIRIT OF THE DECLARATION OF -- AMY: INCLUDING THE SECOND AMENDMENT?

JENNIFER: YES, I AM A BIG SUPPORTER OF THE SECOND AMENDMENT.

I THINK WE NEED TO HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF FLEXIBILITY.

SOME OF THE THINGS BEING ASKED MAYBE ARE UNREASONABLE BUT WE HAVE TO BE ABLE TO PROTECT OURSELVES.

IF I'M SOMEONE WHO LIVES IN AN URBAN AREA, HAVING THE ABILITY TO PURCHASE A GUN, GET A PERMIT TO USE IT IF I NEED TO THIS SELF-DEFENSE, THAT'S SOMETHING ILL DO NEED AND THAT'S POPULAR ACROSS THE COMMUNITY.

AMY: IS THAT A PARTICULAR NEED IN THE TRANSGENDER COMMUNITY, TO HAVE THAT WEAPON FOR SELF-DEFENSE?

JENNIFER: YES, THERE IS.

ESPECIALLY OF TRANSGENDER WOMEN OF COLOR.

EVERY YEAR THERE'S A HIGHER AMOUNT OF MURDERS.

THIS YEAR I THINK WE'RE UP TO EIGHT OR NINE AND HAVE PEOPLE BE ABLE TO PROTECT THEMSELVES BECAUSE YOU ARE TARGETED.

WHETHER YOU'RE A REGULAR SOCCER MOM SUCH AS I AM OR SOMEONE WHO IS A SINGLE PERSON, BEING ABLE TO PROTECT YOURSELF WHEN MAYBE YOUR COMMUNITY KNOWS THAT YOU'RE TRANSGENDER, YOU'RE ACTIVE AND INVOLVED, YOU BECOME MORE OF A TARGET THAN JUST SOMEONE ELSE.

MICHAEL: HAVE YOU BEEN DISAPPOINTED IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION PARTICULARLY WHEN IT COMES TO SERVICE IN THE MILITARY AND OTHER ISSUES?

JENNIFER: I'VE BEEN TERRIBLY DISAPPOINTED.

THE FACTS OF THE CASE ARE THAT TRANSGENDER PEOPLE HAD ALREADY BEEN SERVING IN THE MILITARY FOR A VERY LONG TIME.

AMY: WHICH I THINK CAME AS A SURPRISE TO A LOT OF AMERICANS.

JENNIFER: IT DID AND ONE THING I WILL SAY IS PRESIDENT TRUMP MAKING THOSE TWEETS, IT'S ACTUALLY HELPED THE TRANSGENDER MOVEMENT IN A LOT OF WAYS.

AMY: HOW SO?

THAT'S COUNTER INTUITIVE, RIGHT?

JENNIFER: IT IS.

BECAUSE IF HE DIDN'T MAKE THOSE TWEEMENTS AND IT BECAME SO CONTROVERSIAL, MILLIONS OF AMERICANS WOULDN'T KNOW THAT WE'RE ALREADY IN THE MILITARY.

AS WE GO FURTHER FROM THE BAN, CERTAINLY WE NEVER WOULD HAVE HAD SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN, JOANY ERNST, RICHARD SPEL SHELBY COMING OUT, ALL REPUBLICANS VO FISS -- VO SIS FORCELY DEFENDING TRANSGENDER VILLETORY SERVICE.

MICHAEL: I KNOW YOU'RE A PERSON OF FAITH.

WHAT HAPPENED UTEP EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANS, TRANSGENDER CATHOLICS ABOUT TRANSGENDER PEOPLE THAT THEY DON'T KNOW RIGHT NOW?

JENNIFER: THAT WE ALSO SERVE GOD, FOLLOW HIS TEACHINGS AND THAT WE WANT TO LIVE OUR FAITHFUL LIFE AS BEST WE CAN.

BUT ONE OF THE THINGS YOU NEED TO KNOW THAT, JESUS'S TEACHINGS OF DO UNTO OTHERS AS I WOULD DO UNTO YOU, THAT DOES FALL INTO LGBT SO WHY CAN'T WE CELEBRATE OUR WORLD TOGETHER AND HOMEFULLY FIND AN UNDERSTAND SOMETHING IMEY -- AMY: SO, AS A TRANSGENDER PERSON, AT THE FOREFRONT OF THE ISSUE AND PARTICULARLY IN THE G.O.P., WHAT IS THE NEXT STEM?

JENNIFER: FORCING THOSE CONVERSATIONS BY PEACEFUL MEASURES BUT HAVING HAD THOSE CONVERSATIONS.

I'VE GOTTEN MORE INVOLVED ON GOING TO CAPITOL HILL AND JUST COLD CALLING, KNOCKING ON DOORS OF CERTAIN CONGRESSIONAL OFFS.

INTRODUCING MYSELF THAT I'M A REPUBLICAN.

I'M FROM NEW JERSEY AND I HAPPEN TO BE TRANSGENDER AND IF YOU NEED A RESOURCE OR WOULD LIKE TO HAVE SOME UNDERSTANDING ON THESE ISSUES I WOULD LOVE TO CHAT WITH YOU.

AS -- AT FIRST IT WAS MORE TOUGH BUT NOW IT'S GOTTEN EASIER TO HAVE MEETINGS.

BUT EVEN BACK HOME.

IF YOU'RE RELATED TO A TRANCE PERSON OR IF YOU ARE A TRANCE PERSON, GET INVOLVED WITH OUR OWN PARTY BACK HOME AND GET TO TALK TO PEOPLE ABOUT YOUR LIFE, WHAT IT'S LIKE TO SHARE THOSE ISSUES.

BUT IF YOU DON'T BE YOUR OWN BEST ADVOCATE, TRY TO TALK TO POLITICIANS WITH LEADERS WHO DON'T HAVE YOUR LIFE EXPERIENCE AND MAYBE DON'T UNDERSTAND BEING TRANSGENDER OF OF -- OR THEY HAVE A PARTICULAR POINT OF VIEW WE HAVE TO TRY TO BRIDGE THE GAPS AND COME TO AN UNDERSTANDING.

AMY: I WOULD WANT THAT AS WELL.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

JENNIFER: THANK YOU.

MICHAEL: THAT'S IT FOR "IN PRINCIPLE."

AMY: AND CHECK OUT MORE "IN PRINCIPLE" ONLINE OR FOLLOW US ON SOCIAL MEDIA.

UNTIL NEXT TIME.

I'M AMY HOLMES.

MICHAEL: I'M MICHAEL GERSON.

GOODBYE.

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