(bright music) >>Welcome to A World of Difference: Embracing Neurodiversity.

I'm Darryl Owens.

Remember the old poem about the secret ingredients for boys and girls?

"Snips and snails for boys, sugar and spice for girls."

It wasn't just a silly rhyme, it hinted at a truth.

Boys and girls experience the world differently.

This applies to neurodivergence too.

Autism and ADHD can manifest differently in males and females leading to misdiagnosis or underdiagnosis in women.

For parents, this raises a crucial question.

How can we ensure that neurodiverse children, regardless of gender, feels seen, understood, and supported?

We'll explore that question in this episode.

We'll visit a Connecticut school that intentionally considers gender and its approach to educating students.

Our expert panel will discuss how boys and girls experience neurodivergence differently and offer strategies for parents and educators.

And later, you'll meet our latest difference makers, a Hollywood couple, using their influence to cast neurodiverse families in leading roles, helping to support autistic children's journeys.

First, we go inside the Southport School where its co-Educational programs allow students to safely explore their learning differences through research-based, gender inclusive approaches.

>>The Southport School is a unique learning community where we work with students with language-based learning disabilities like dyslexia and attentional issues like ADHD, to really help them understand their learning profile, who they are as a learner.

And then we also do really intensive, evidence-based interventions and instructional models so that we can really help them fulfill their full potential.

In boys, we see ADHD more commonly as either hyperactive or combined type, which means that they're both inattentive and hyperactive.

With girls, we see more of the inattentive type.

And so what what that means is that when we look at the students in the classroom, we're more likely to see externalizing behaviors with the boys and we're more likely to see internalizing behaviors with our female students.

And so from an instructional practice, what that really means is that we have to be mindful of how do we help boys do things like regulate their externalizing behaviors?

How do we help our female students maybe inhibit some of that internalizing behavior?

And so while academically they need the same types of instructional strategies and the interventions benefit them in a similar way, it's more about the teacher being mindful of the presenting behaviors or what's happening underneath the surface.

>>With Davis, our son, he was much more extroverted and then whenever it came down to him trying to to sit down and to read within the class, 'cause they had class reading time, he would do anything in his power to avoid the situation at all costs.

So he became somebody different than you know, his introverted kindhearted, kind of laid back self.

>>And then Sydney, it was just like almost meltdowns.

You know, yes, in the car going, but even at school and just the weight of the world of not being able to figure this out, so you just know that something's going on.

Listen, when we were growing up, you were either a good kid who followed the rules or you were a bad kid.

The one thing I think we've learned, especially since both of them have, you know, the issues with learning is they both learn differently today.

So it's not a one size fits all.

>>At my old school, it was harder for me to read and to write words and I always got like distracted 'cause people were always talking, being silly and I couldn't think.

>>A teacher would always come and like pull me out and I would go in like a different room and I would like do just a bunch of like reading lessons and stuff and like breaking down words.

And so then is when I like realized that I was different from everyone else.

>>That was like really hard for me because I would fall behind the books we would read in class and then my friends would always talk about it and spoil the book and then I would never really know what happens next.

>>A lot of the times girls just try to keep on going and I feel like boys, when they're at a certain point they just stop.

>>This school, I don't get pulled and they actually help me in ways I could learn.

And now like I could learn like 10 times faster in so many different ways than I used to could have learned.

>>Since it's smaller classrooms, like the information reaches you easier.

It's not like there's like 30 kids in the classroom and the teacher is like going through all the instructions really quickly.

>>You get put in an environment where kids also experience this and you get put in smaller classrooms.

There's teachers who'd actually care and actually trained for this.

>>Typically, I see in the classroom, you know boys, in my experience, boys tend to outwardly express their frustrations or how they're trying to get out of doing the work where the girls tend to try to please or make little cute conversations.

I actually saw it a little flipped in my own family.

I saw my daughter as very outward, trying to be all giggly and get out of doing what she had to do.

Just the focus wasn't there.

It wasn't there.

Where my son thought, when he was in kindergarten, first grade, if he just kept it together, if he managed to be that great kid, you know, his struggles would go away.

Since they are so different, they really need to be looked at individuals.

Especially in my family of four, we always try to support the struggles, but we always try to tweak out the talents.

>>Although we see common challenges across all types of learners who have ADHD or dyslexia or other learning and attention issues, the types of supports they need may be very different.

And so it's really important for parents and caregivers to understand that.

What we think about these things with dyslexia and ADHD may actually be quite different in terms of how it manifests itself in our kids.

>>Next, our experts explore the way that boys and girls experience learning and attention issues differently.

Dr. Victor Fornari is a child and adolescent psychiatrist who has devoted his career to caring for youth with mental illness.

He's Vice-Chair of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry at Long Island Jewish Medical Center, including the Zucker Hillside Hospital and the Cohen Children's Medical Center in Queens, New York.

He is also an investigator at the Institute of Behavioral Science at Northwell's Feinstein Institutes for Medical Research and a Professor of Psychiatry at the Donald & Barbara Zucker School of Medicine at Hofstra/Northwell.

Dr. Oksana Hagerty is an educational and developmental psychologist who serves as a learning specialist and the Dean of the Center for Student Success at Beacon College in Leesburg, Florida.

Beacon College is a nonprofit liberal arts school and America's first accredited baccalaureate institution dedicated to educating neurodiverse students with learning disabilities, ADHD, dyslexia and other learning differences.

She specializes in academic support, cognitive abilities, learning disability interventions, and educational and developmental psychology.

Dr. Sharon Saline is a licensed clinical psychologist with more than 30 years experience with expertise in ADHD, anxiety, learning differences and mental health challenges and their impact on school and family dynamics.

She's the author of the book, "What Your ADHD Child Wishes You Knew."

She mains a busy psychotherapy practice in North Hampton, Massachusetts, working with children, teens, families and adults with ADHD, mental health issues and other challenges.

She has spoken and conducted workshops nationally and internationally on ADHD and the adolescent brain.

And we're gonna begin our conversation with Dr. Fornari.

How did the early signs of neurodivergence, such as ADHD and autism often present differently in boys and girls?

>>Well, generally speaking with boys, they exhibit more externalizing behaviors that include more hyperactivity and impulsivity, whereas girls with ADHD and/or the autism spectrum may be more internalizing in their symptoms, which include more anxiety and depression.

>>Alright, thank you.

So Dr. Hagerty, what are some of the common misconceptions and biases that lead to misdiagnosis or underdiagnosis of neurodivergence in girls?

>>Well, I would say that for much of the 20th century, conditions like ADHD, attention deficit and autism spectrum disorder were considered to be predominantly male disorders.

And just like Dr. Fornari said, part of the reason was that boys were engaging in more hyperactive and impulsive behaviors.

They were more disruptive, they created more problems in the classroom and so they were easy identified.

In the same realm, the girls were quiet, they were just daydreaming, they were underperforming.

They were having trouble finishing tasks.

So I would say that the problem with identification was that boys were able to tell us because problem behavior is always communication.

So boys were able to tell us louder that they're struggling compared to girls.

And girls unfortunately were under-recognized, underdiagnosed and they lacked services compared to boys.

>>Alright, thank you Dr. Hagerty.

So Dr. Saline, can you tell me if there is a difference between how boys and girls express their emotions, boys and girls who are neuro-divergent that is?

>>Well, as doctors Fornari and Hagerty have explained, the tendency is for boys to externalize their symptoms and for girls to internalize their symptoms.

So what that means emotionally is we see boys who will become angry, frustrated, possibly aggressive when they're feeling any kinds of distress or frustration, even sadness sometimes or hurt.

And we'll see girls often withdraw into themselves or demonstrate various symptoms of anxiety including worry about things that are not related to the actual feelings that they're having.

We'll also see more sadness and isolation, although we see that sometimes with boys, it would distract ability with gaming and other kinds of activities.

So they're not actually having their feelings, which we will sometimes see with girls in terms of technology, social media and things like that.

>>All right.

So Dr. Fornari, we know that with neurodivergence, a lot of times there are a lot of comorbidities like anxiety or depression that also come riding shotgun with a particular diagnosis.

Are there more comorbidities that are prevalent in boys versus girls and vice versa?

>>Generally speaking, most neurodiverse youth experience anxiety, even if they can't name it.

They find themselves having more difficulty fitting in.

They experience more bullying and a more sense of isolation so that the anxiety is very prevalent, although they may not know how to express feeling anxious, but they are anxious.

And of course, adolescent girls, by the time neurodiverse young women enter adolescents may experience more depression.

Generally speaking, adolescent girls have higher rates of mood disorders than adolescent boys.

But all neurodiverse kids often have very high rates of coexisting anxiety.

Now, of course, because other disorders can also co-occur, including tick disorders, which can be a source of embarrassment with involuntary either motor or vocal ticks, as well as other kinds of anxiety, whether it's obsessive compulsive disorder with strong repetitive motions.

And because some of these also engage in some kinds of repetitive stereotypic behaviors like flapping or clapping, they may be the source of attention that may cause more anxiety as well.

>>Okay, Dr. Hagerty does executive functions like planning and time management manifest differently in boys and girls who are neuro-divergent?

>>Well, that's a great question because while, say, attention deficit is considered to be an executive disorder leading to more impairment and executive functioning later in age, There is, despite some isolated studies and reportings, there aren't too many differences between how boys and girls or men and women with ADHD, for example, function in terms of their intelligence or executive functioning.

What may be at play here and maybe the assumption that girls are more impaired is due to the same reason why neuro typical girls may be viewed as less successful or even gifted women may be viewed as less successful.

These are the assumptions about competence.

These are gender roles and thankfully, they're becoming more fluid, but still maybe they're affecting what girls are doing.

Even the selection of courses in the middle school may lead to some kind of perceived impairment in executive functioning because those courses may be less rigorous and so they present less stimulation challenge and opportunities for development of the executive functioning skills late in life.

So I would say that neuropsychological research does not support the difference in boys and girls.

At the same time, what we see, may be more social factors than really neuropsychological factors.

>>All right.

So Dr. Saline, let's take this into the school room here, the classroom setting.

Do academic difficulties manifest differently between boys and girls who are neuro-divergent?

>>Well, that's an interesting question because I think the issue is more about the type of neurodivergence that a child lives with rather than primarily their gender.

So to me, that's the first issue that I would want to address because people or kids and children and teens with inattentive ADHD have different academic challenges than those with hyperactive, impulsive, ADHD.

Both boys and girls with ADHD, regardless of the type struggle with initiation, getting started on things, particularly things that aren't appealing to them.

One of the hallmarks of ADHD and one of the most confusing aspects of ADHD is a consistently inconsistent motivation.

So for things that they're interested in, there's no problem getting started, but if it's something that is more challenging, it's a little bit more difficult.

I think some of the academic difficulties would have to also do with the issue of what we call sustained attention.

So being able to stay focused on something that you're doing until it's completed.

And this is difficult for a lot of neuro-divergent kids who get distracted by, you know, snow outside or squirrel or somebody coughing in the classroom or sharpening their pencil.

And so we want to assist educators to help students to their students return from distraction to the task at hand.

Particularly for girls who seem to have higher rates of inattentive ADHD, one of the challenges in the classroom, and this would be true for boys as well, who have inattentive ADHD, but we see higher rates with girls is what I call the drift.

So people, you know, drift to looking out the window or drift to thinking about lunch, and then when they return from that drift, there's a sense of confusion, feeling lost.

>>Watch the full Ask the Expert segment on our website at awodtv.org if you wanna learn more about this topic.

You can also watch or listen on Facebook, YouTube, or on your favorite podcasting platform.

Next, let's meet our latest difference makers.

When you're parenting six kids, three of whom are on the autism spectrum, it would be easy to retreat and focus on your own unique issues.

But for Matthew Asner and Navah Paskowitz Asner, the son and daughter-in-Law, a beloved actor, Ed Asner, their children's diagnosis might as well have been some director clacking a clapboard and yelling action.

The Asners co-founded the Ed Asner Family Center, a haven where neuro-divergent individuals and their families can thrive and they're actively changing the conversation around neuro-diversity.

In doing so, the couple has approached helping support success for other neuro-divergent children just as they have reared their own children with hope, inspiration, and spunk.

And unlike Ed Asner's signature character Lou Grant, we love Spunk.

>>I was introduced to autism through my father, Ed Asner.

And honestly, it's a way of us honoring his legacy and we wanted to make it about something that wasn't just acting, it was about something else that was really important to him, which was, you know, making the world a better place.

>>He really believed in what we were doing.

And for the first few years of the center, we traveled a lot together and he was very proud of us.

I mean, he always-- >>Extremely, extremely supportive.

>>Told me how proud he was of Matt.

>>I have a brother on the spectrum, Charlie, who was born when I was in my twenties.

And then when Will was born, we knew something was going on with him and he was diagnosed in 2008.

I retreated into my shell for a while and then I realized that I needed to learn as much as I could about this, and I need to help him as much as I can.

And so I made it my mission and our mission to give all of our sons the ability to create their own happiness.

>>My dad was always very involved from the start of the, about the minute he got diagnosed.

He got involved with Autism Speaks at first, would run their walks there, worked his way up to executive director for Southern California, and then eventually started the Ed Asner Family Center.

>>Autism is an invisible thing.

People can't see it, so they don't know what kind of trouble anyone's having and it makes it very difficult to have empathy in the community.

So I found that I needed to go and change the world for my sons.

As a producer, I walked into offices and I asked for money, and now I'm just doing it for a righteous cause.

>>I was struggling and I was working, you know, two or three jobs and trying to keep all the balls in the air.

It was when my youngest son was diagnosed that I really, you know, felt overwhelmed.

You know, the Center was really born out of our needs, our individual needs.

But when we came together to create something, we really wanted to create something that supported the entirety of the special needs family from day one to graduating and, you know, God willing that their kids are gonna go off and live independent lives.

>>The second that I found out that they were starting the center and that they needed someone to work mainly on like, the beautification of this space, I honestly dropped everything and I was like, this sounds like my dream job, regardless of working with my family.

Like this is the goal, to be able to have a creative job, work with folks that are all so unique in their own ways.

That all remind me of each of my brothers too.

I see so many different reflections of my siblings within a lot of my students, and it makes me just extremely happy and makes me feel very fulfilled going home every single day.

>>One of the things that drove us to really do this is, you know, we wanted to build a place where people heard the word yes.

You know, autism families always hear the word no.

"Oh no, you can't do that.

No, you can't do that."

And we wanted to have a place where people walked in and it was yes.

"You know, yeah, we want you to do that."

>>We wanna really support every avenue of a special needs family's life.

So for our younger crew, we have Camp Bed, which is an expressive arts camp that really incorporates things that most special needs camp don't offer.

But the pillars of our center really are our mental health division, our adult services, our family services.

So we have support groups for families.

The dating spectrum really gives them the social tools to go out into the world and feel confident and feel able to talk to people and interact and be socially appropriate.

So we wanted to create an adult job skills group.

So there are electives that they are really, really hyper-focused on, like computers and improv and fine art and life skills.

>>The center is, it's a wonderful place for people with disabilities.

It has music, art, computers and improv now, and there's an academy going on too.

>>There's a lot of things I love, like a majority of things I enjoy that we get to like, learn a lot of artistry and other kind of professional job skills and techniques and things like that.

And I also love how I get to make some new friends and reunite with some old friends.

>>When a child is diagnosed with autism, you're gonna hear, as a parent, you're gonna hear a list of what they cannot do and what they never will do.

And my biggest advice to a parent when they have diagnosis of a child is don't listen to that because you and your child are in control of your child's life and you have dreams like everyone else.

Don't ever let your dreams go, keep your dreams, make them real.

- Congratulations Matthew Asner and Navah Paskowitz Asner for making a difference.

And that does it for this edition of, A World of Difference Embracing Neurodiversity.

I am Darryl Owens.

I'll see you back here next time.

You can watch episodes of A World of Difference on the Beacon College Facebook and YouTube channels, and on the show's website, AWODTV.ORG.

The website also provides tip sheets and other resources for your parenting journey.

You can watch the show from the PBS app available on your favorite streaming device, and you can listen on your favorite podcasting platform.

Thank you for watching and supporting A World of Difference.

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