>>What makes a neighborhood feel like home?

Today, we explore the impact of culture, safety, connection, and finance on the Black experience of place and belonging.

I am Adrienne Cole Johnson, and this is "Racism: Challenging Perceptions."

And with me now are Carolyn Loftin and Tamika Daniel.

Carolyn is a passionate community advocate working at the intersection of housing, financial empowerment, and economic stability.

She supports others to make practical and informed financial decisions that fit their realistic lifestyles.

Carolyn is currently the president of the Virginia Association of Housing Counselors and serves on the board of Partnership for Housing Affordability.

Tamika is an East End Richmond resident with a powerful voice for healing, resilience, and community transformation.

A proud mother of four, Tamika began her advocacy journey with her fight to support her son with autism.

From this, grew a mission to uplift her entire community.

She serves as the Community Engagement Specialist at Greater Richmond SCAN and leads trauma-informed training and forums, rooted in lived experience and compassion.

In 2023, Tamika founded Trauma to Triumph Community Empowerment Services with an aim to turn personal challenges into pathways for healing and empowerment.

Welcome, Tamika and Carolyn.

>>Thank you.

>>Yes.

>>So good to have you all here and talking about something that is so near and dear to everyone and that's home.

And so before we get into that, I would love to just hear from you all.

How do you define home and what has that meant for you in your lives?

>>Home for me is peace.

I feel like that's the one place that I should always have peace.

In some homes it wasn't any peace, so I didn't really feel like I was at home.

I never settled there like you would never find pictures or anything on my walls.

Because I just didn't feel like it was home.

I wasn't at peace for various reasons, but that's definitely what I feel home is to me, is peace.

It always has to be peace.

>>I love that thought of home as peace because that's even outside of a place, right?

It's something that you can call.

And beyond the physical presence it's how you feel when you're there.

>>I would say for me, home is where the heart is.

You know, it's the place where you can be yourself.

It's the place that covers you when you don't want any other people to see who you are.

But it's also the place of like, that's heavy - heavily influenced by your community.

I grew up in a military community where when my mom and dad couldn't get me off the bus, the lady next door got me.

And because it was military, it was culturally diverse.

So my neighbors were so different.

So I joke a lot of times that, I didn't have the traditional Black experience when it came to a neighborhood and growing up.

And so, I got to see different things at an early age.

And I knew what I wanted to have for my kids, and coming to East End myself, living there for about fourteen years now, that has been a community where my children are seeing some of the same things that I saw when I was growing up.

>>I love that.

As I'm thinking about what you all shared with your definitions, was there a time when your definition of home had to shift, whether it was something in life, loss or just change?

Was there a point where, I'm thinking about you, Tamika, where places didn't feel like home, but now you have that, and I'm thinking about how transient you probably were growing up in military, but can you think about times when your definition shifted?

>>I know, probably from like 2011 to 2015 , I lived in Southside.

I was in a nice apartment, but I became pregnant and they didn't have three bedrooms.

So, the only thing I could afford at that time and with my credit score was to unfortunately, go back to public housing.

When I got there, it was a community that I was familiar with.

I grew up in Fairfield.

My grandmother and aunt still lived out there, so I felt safe, like, physically safe.

But internally and mentally, there was no peace.

I did not feel like home.

I felt like this was supposed to be a stepping stone.

It almost felt like survival.

Like operating out of survival.

Like I'm here because I have to be here until I can get to my next place.

But sometimes my kids couldn't play outside.

There were crimes going on.

Like it was hard.

But in 2021, I was fortunate enough to move into a new build.

And I absolutely felt at home.

Me and my children feel at home.

I have so much peace there.

Whenever I'm having a rough day, it's not I want to go outside, it's not I want to go to this place, I'm going home.

>>Yeah, so my housing story has always been a roller coaster to me, because you go from this really big high to this really big low.

And moving almost every two years from the time I was in elementary school to being in high school, it really affected the depth of the relationships that I've had over the course of my life.

So when I had my own children, I was focused in trying to make sure that they didn't have that experience.

I wanted them to have lifelong friends, which I didn't get the luxury of having.

But along the way financially things were not adding up to what I wanted to what reality was.

>>That's right.

>>And so, I you know, when I was six months pregnant with my third daughter, I had birthed her living in the shelter.

>>Wow.

>>And that had to be home.

>>Yes.

>>One room with me and my two kids, >>Yes.

>>You know, and it was it was a place of revelation for me, because there was a stipulation to see a therapist.

And so I got to kind of dig in deep to what was happening to me emotionally.

>>Yes.

And then we got our own place, but it was public housing.

So there's another low of like, oh, my gosh, I've never lived in public housing before.

What is this experience?

But that had to be home.

>>That's right.

>>And having to rely on community that I have forged you know, while I was here, partnering with Urban Hope, finding a house for me and my family to live in so that I can continue to do this work all the way to... I just closed on a house last week.

>>Oh, literally?

>>My first house.

>>Right now.

>>Yes.

>>Congratulations.

>>Yes.

Thank you.

>>Huge.

>>Yeah.

When we closed those doors, you are free to be whoever you want to be behind these doors, like this is your safe haven.

And guess what?

If you have friends, this is a safe haven for them as well.

>>So let's talk a bit more about just lived experience.

But I want to start with Urban Hope, because you mentioned that you work with Urban Hope.

Tell folks what Urban Hope is.

If they have no frame of reference for the work that you all do.

>>Urban Hope is a faith-based affordable housing organization that is committed to the East End community.

We are providing affordable rentals.

And then, we're also working with people who are on the pathway to home-ownership.

We have a deep rooted belief that home should be the cornerstone of opportunity.

And so the way that we work through that is we keep it affordable so that people can dream and can be free to live in their home, and think about what's next.

A lot of us are striving for, "How do I survive till tomorrow?"

But the real thing is, like, "What does my future look like?"

>>Yes.

Yes.

>>And so, pulling out the heaviness of being a cost burdened in your housing kind of gives you an opportunity to breathe and be able to have some of those dreams and make them reality.

>>Tamika, you've experienced Urban Hope.

>>Yes.

>>Talk a bit more your housing journey, in particular when you left Fairfield Court and moved into your now new-build apartment that you're in.

But talk a bit about that time in your life.

>>Of course, what most people don't know is they like to say public housing is a stepping stone.

But it's like as soon as you start to make some money, they come in and try to take all of it with no real transition plans in place for family, no educational resources and place.

So for me, I'm looking at the rent I was paying, which was $1,000.

By the time I moved, they told me it was going to go up to $1,200.

And for a place I did not feel safe, that wasn't necessarily up to par and my standards for me and my family.

But what I will say about Urban Hope is they are not like any other program I've ever been through.

Even though it was for housing, I got so much more out of that program.

Just even me with how I manage my finances now is completely different.

I didn't know that a lot of my trauma played a part in how I viewed money.

Like my mindset when it came to money.

Carolyn has this thing where she does this shock, where she makes you pull your bank statements, and you go over them, and you get to realize, like, where your money is going.

>>Where your money... >>And I'm like... The other thing about Urban Hope is it didn't just help with my housing journey, it helped everything.

Because once my finances were starting to look better, I was starting to feel better, everything changed.

Like, my mindset changed.

Like I finally started to dream bigger than where I was.

And the other piece of it is it's affordable.

>>Yes.

>>I'm not paying what I was paying in public housing and the place that I'm in is three bedroom, two and a half baths, and I'm able to afford it comfortably and still be able to live and show my children different experiences, things that I didn't think I would be able to do and things that I didn't even get to see.

So I'm actually breaking some of those generational curses >>That's right.

>>...and all of that.

And Urban Hope has been a big part >>We want people to be able to have the opportunity to choose what they want to do with that residual income that they have coming in.

They can pay off debts and move into home-ownership or they can take their kids on a vacation because a lot of Black families don't know what it's like to have a full vacation with with everyone.

>>Literally everything she just said is what I was able to do.

When I first moved, me and my children, we took our first family trip, and we went to Florida, to Disney.

And then I did something else I never thought I would be able to do.

And I got my license, and I have a vehicle now.

That was another process they helped me with, with financial management.

And even now, like starting my own business, that was another thing I didn't think I was going to do.

And also me actually paying off debt now.

I have myself on a two-year plan.

>>I love that.

>>Carolyn showed me a snowball effect, payment plan.

And so I've been doing that.

I pay attention, like she said.

I hang on to everything she said I may not apply it right then and there, but eventually, those conversations continue to replay in my head, and I'm like, it's time.

It's time to get it done.

So I keep everything she's ever taught me.

So everything she's saying about Urban Hope.

They really are doing that.

>>I love that you talk about the snowball.

I mean, it starts with home, right?

Once you have - once you are able to secure that safety, that peace, just that place for yourself and your family, then you're able to think about all of the other things that you may be trying to solve for.

But it's a lot when you don't have home or housing secured.

>>One thing I love about you all's connection is how important relationship has been in fostering that.

I would imagine, and you can speak to it, Tamika, but Carolyn, I can imagine your lived experience and your ability to talk to Tamika, and not just from a professional space, but from a personal space as a level being seen that may not be there if that lived experience isn't there.

Because, I'm thinking about Tamika, it's a vulnerable space, right?

When you're going to share where you are.

But then also exciting where you're going.

Carolyn's gone through it, is living through it current.

So it's just a different kind of connection.

Talk to us about the importance of relationship when folks are making home.

And kind of looking into those next steps for housing.

>>Yeah, relationships are crucial to any kind of success that you want to see within your story.

We are not created to be alone or to navigate situations alone.

That's why when we don't have people around us, we're all lonely.

But it is not enough to just have the relationship.

The relationship has to have that aspect of mutual respect.

Meaning I can learn as much from you as you can from me.

And I've always operated in a posture of like, I don't know it all.

I'm a lifelong learner.

And the more I pay attention to what's going on, the more I can be attuned of what more I need to learn, and the more beneficial I am to other people.

And I love that Tamika just, she was open.

She let me in with open arms.

And I was like, "Okay, here we go.

Let's let's do this."

And we did have to have hard conversations.

>>Yes.

>>And I had to challenge Tamika to think about you know, the things that she was doing to sabotage herself sometimes, because that's the same conversation that I had to have with me.

>>That's right.

>>There there are systemic barriers to making it out of poverty.

But then there's also internal factors.

And so you can't have one without dealing with the other.

>>And I would dare say you have to have some type of a relationship in order to even receive that kind of feedback or guidance, right?

Tamika, how was that for you on the other side of maybe hearing some things that might seem hard or a big shift, what was that like for you to receive that, but then still to put it in place for yourself?

>>I cried a lot.

I cried a lot with Carolyn.

>>Yes.

>>She was so relatable.

I could talk to her.

I didn't feel like I was going through a process to get housing.

Like it just felt like I was talking to one of my friends.

>>Mmm.

Mmm hmm.

>>That's what it felt like.

>>Yeah.

And that makes a big difference.

>>Yeah.

>>I'm thinking about like barriers right.

Things that can get in the way.

And you know we've talked about yes there are some systemic things that we know are really prevalent when it comes to housing.

But then also and Carolyn, you mentioned sometimes there are some just internal, intrinsic things that, you know, we have to go through as we've gone through those shifts.

What are some of the barriers or just roadblocks that you see get in the way for folks as they are moving through, kind of going to that next phase?

>>I learned how to be attuned with me, and that helped me kind of identify things that were happening in other people.

So I'm a mother of five, and I've been doing it on my own for a long time.

>>Yes.

>>But I also realized that a lot of my identity was rooted in my ability to provide for them.

So because when I was down, I used to always have to say no.

And so when I was up, I would be extravagant.

We got to make up for lost times.

This is this is my moment to shine.

>>Yes.

Yes.

>>And I realized that that's not healthy.

You have to have some type of balance.

And I had to dig inside and figure out, like, what does it mean to take my identity from my ability to provide material things for my kids?

How can I build up my own identity?

And I see that a lot in the folks that I walk alongside.

It's like, I'm buying all of these things because I'm tired of saying no.

I'm tired of saying I don't have it.

And, it was, in Tamika's sense, I know we had talked about, her scarcity mindset.

So she was a bulk, a bulk buyer.

>>Yes.

And it was so, it was so interesting because that's something that I've never experienced.

I didn't think about buying in bulk because I'm worried about what's not going to be there.

>>I'm getting it now so that I have it.

That's right.

>>Right.

So she was managing her money in a way that was that was good for her.

But it -- it should have been used in a different time frame.

So like, her time frame had changed.

And so her current situation didn't, it didn't call for that type of spending.

And I think when we identified that, that brought so much more.

And I just think about the different scenarios that I've experienced where, I'm going to the store because I'm sad, or I'm going to the store because because I'm bored, and or I'm buying these things because I want to feel better.

Because that's the thing that I have control over.

And so the way that I approach financial health, note, I didn't say financial management because it is about the health, the overall health for you.

>>That's right.

>>And how you, manage your finances.

When I approach that piece, I'm asking questions "How was your life growing up as a kid?"

"What is your first money memory that you can think of?"

So that I'm more - I'm more abreast of how you, how you're managing the money.

>>What your relationship has been.

Yes.

That's right.

That's right.

Your choices.

>>This is your own revelation.

>>That's right.

That's right.

I love how you shared that when you're working alongside you are transforming as well.

And Tamika kind of parallel to the question Carolyn answered, what things would you want people to know about just what it's like creating the stability for your family while being up against systemic barriers.

What would you want people to know about that?

>>That you can do it.

For me, it's about agency.

I try to steer away from the things that I know were put in place to keep me at certain places in life or that would make me jump hurdles to even get a little inch of the way.

I focus on the things I have control over.

That's what gets me through.

And piggybacking off of what Carolyn said, like one of the biggest barriers internally for me was my mental health.

When my mental health was in a place of just it wasn't great, I couldn't focus on anything.

I couldn't receive anything.

I didn't have great relationships.

Once I took those steps, again, it was a lot of internal things.

Like, I feel like nothing is going to start shaking in your life until you take care of that mental.

It really is the gateway for all things.

And once I took care of that, I was able to allow people in, I was able to trust people.

And by me focusing on those things, the things I did have control over, the systemic stuff it's there, it's always going to be there, but that's not my - you know I'm doing things that I know I can do to make it better for the future and for my children.

>>Absolutely.

I'm thinking about when you talk about financial wealth, and money, we can be sensitive about money.

How do you, Carolyn, how are you having conversations around financial wealth, without without creating a feeling of shame for folks like, how do you approach those conversations?

>>So I let people know, from the jump, I have no room to judge you.

This is a judgment-free zone.

If you tell me you spend $500 on Black and Milds, let's just put it on the paper.

You don't want it by the note.

Here's the miscellaneous box.

We figure all kinds of ways.

I also approach the conversation with kid gloves because talking about your finances is like asking - walking into somebody's house and asking them to show you their underwear drawer.

>>Yes.

(laughs) >>It's like, "Oh, no."

I try to be very gentle, but I also try to lead with my own life experiences so that people know I'm not just somebody who went to school and learned all this information and feel like I'm better than them.

I do share that, I at times had hard, hard (laughs) hard boundaries with learning how to manage my money well.

And it just shows them that I know what the struggle is, and I'm interested in figuring out how we finally get out of it once and for all.

>>I'm thinking about, belonging and you know as we kind of are reflecting on our conversation.

What does it take to really belong in a community in a neighborhood?

>>Again, that authenticity and being genuine, for me is - I have an amazing village, and it looks completely different than what I thought it would look like.

Social workers, Black, white, young, old.

Like, white, Black.

It's very mixed.

And the biggest commonality is that everybody wants to see each other do great in life.

There's no ulterior motives.

There's no none of that.

It's just genuine people that really want to watch each other do well in life.

And I watched someone pour so much into me.

And I asked them, "What are, what are you getting out of this?"

And they just, "Me watching you grow, me watching you grow."

>>Yes.

>>That's it.

So for me, that's what community is about.

Is everybody coming together and just trying to create better lives for each other, looking out for each other.

It goes back to that old saying, it takes a village, and it really does.

Like, I've always kept that core value deep within here.

So, I love my community.

I love my village.

And for me, that's what it's about.

Just being authentic, being genuine, showing up as your true self and adding value to each other's lives.

>>And I think the way that you project yourself and how you treat your neighbors and how your neighbors treat you, is a big reflection of whether or not you guys believe that either one belongs there.

>>Yes, and that shared value and respect that you shared earlier.

Ladies, I thank you both for your time.

Just for sharing so much of your experiences.

And it's beautiful to witness and hear the relationship that you all have fostered, even as you both have created home.

So just thank you for your time, your participation in "Racism: Challenging Perceptions."

>>Thank you.

>>Thank you.

(upbeat music) >>From navigating relationships to building legacy, we celebrate in the beauty and dimensions of Black love.

This two part discussion will feature real couples, thought leaders, and cultural influencers as they take us on a journey to explore what it means to love and be loved in our community.

I'm Adrienne Cole Johnson, and with me now are Frank and Sheila Battle.

The Battles pride themselves on work that is rooted in faith, service, and transformation.

For nearly 30 years, they've walked alongside individuals, couples, families, and communities, helping them to heal, grow and thrive.

Their home is affectionately known as the Battle Station, a sanctuary for leaders, visionaries, and everyday people seeking clarity, connection and courage.

Welcome, Frank and Sheila.

>>Thank you so much for having us.

>>Thank you.

>>Over 30 years.

(Sheila laughs) >>And that's just on record, right?

That doesn't include any pre-work.

And I know how you all have have poured into us.

I want to just start our conversation with two simple words, Black love.

How do you define Black love.

Not only romantically even just in community.

What does it mean for you all, individually or collectively?

>>For me, Black love is about relationships.

It's about an essential element of what makes us thrive as individuals.

And it guides how we show up in community and how we show up for one another.

And so even in meeting with individuals and families and couples who had the roughest starts with love, watching their evolution and helping them to navigate the love they want, the love they need, the love that's already in them and that they want to express and share, it's just soul care work that we fell into and we love doing.

But that definition, I think, is nuanced.

I think it has layers and textures and flavors to it.

And so it's kind of hard to narrow it down to one thing, but it's it's unmistakable when you see it.

It's unmistakable when you feel it.

You know when you are at a restaurant and you look over at a mother and child and you can see it, you look over at a couple walking in the park, you can see it.

And so I think its essence is vibrational.

It shows up in ways that we can't really explain, but it's unmistakable.

>>Yes.

>>It's unmistakable.

>>I love that.

When you say childhood, I want to go back to childhood, if we can, I'm going to skip on back.

>>Okay.

(group laughter) Right?

And think about this concept of love.

Is there a person, a moment or even a memory that comes to mind when you can look back in retrospect and say that was love for me?

>>That has shaped my experience.

>> Wow.

>> ...and how I love?

>>So you mentioned that our home is affectionately referred to as the Battle Station.

>>Yes.

Yes.

>>So I tell people I lived in the - I grew up in the Kool-Aid House And now I own the Kool-Aid House.

>>That's right.

>>And so for me, that imagery came at home.

Our door was always open.

The way my parents made the decision to live open hearted with our open door all the time.

We lived in a multi-racial, multi-ethnic, multi-linguistic neighborhood.

And anybody and everybody was welcome in our home.

My mother was feeding everybody.

She was watching everybody's kids.

She was the secretary of every community organization.

She was assistant block captain, all of that.

And so for me, love looked like open heartedness.

It looked like make more room at the table.

It looked like, extend the table if you need to and don't turn anybody away.

And so when you grow up in that and you see the richness and the benefit of it, it's addictive.

>>Yeah >>It's addictive.

And so that's how we live now.

>>Wow.

>>Yeah.

And what's so amazing about our story is that we were a blind date for one.

>>Okay.

And my mother did the same thing her mother did.

>>Wow.

(Sheila laughs) >>My mother took care of the kids.

People who's working late shifts.

So I had like, they're still like nieces and nephews because we all grew up together.

>>That's right.

Other brothers and sisters.

>>Exactly.

And so that's when I saw that love.

I saw my mother take care of everyone.

And she always opened herself up to it.

And we both, it just became a part of who we are because we watched those great examples growing up.

>>I love that, the fact that you all had similar backgrounds.

>>Right.

>>Yeah.

>>And as you kind of naturally created or allowed were allowed to use the Battle Station as home, really home is sanctuary.

>>Yes, absolutely.

>>What is it like to have a home that feels like a sanctuary to so many other people?

>>Wow.

So it feels like an honor.

>>Yeah.

>>Because people just don't have to trust us that way.

They don't have to trust us with their stories.

They don't have to trust us with their children, their loved ones.

And yet there's something I think it's familiar, but I also think there's a yearning for it.

Like, weve, weve lived such individual lives, and we live in such isolation that whenever there's an opportunity to be connected, when there's an opportunity to share what belonging means and what it looks like, I think people run towards that and not away from it.

Especially coming out of Covid on this side of Covid, we need that belonging again.

We want that connection again.

We crave it.

And so when people make the decision like, hey, I could live and just have my four and no more, or I could open my heart, I could open my arms, I could open my home, and I could let people in.

I think it's becoming more attractive, not less.

>>Yeah.

Yeah.

>>And then like for me, I remember times with my mom would be, someone had to work an extra shift.

>>Yes >>And they would call and they would just be, "Oh, I'm so sorry."

My mom's like, "No, it's okay.

This baby can stay."

>>I got you.

>>"I got you."

So that part.

It's like when you just never leave anybody hanging.

You just avail yourself of that.

And then when you see, like, the next morning when the mother or gets off the shift and it just the mama will always embrace them and just love on them.

And say look, here's some go home and eat this.

And if you need to, if the baby need to stay for a couple hours and you get some rest, you can do that.

So we saw that.

And so it's like when you see someone having that need, you just try to meet it as much as you can.

>>And then the other thing is we work on our marriage.

We work on relationships with our kids.

>>Right.

That's right.

>>And we make sure that that's a priority.

We make sure that we spend time with them.

We're asking them hard questions.

We let them ask us hard questions.

And so we're not shucking our kids to the side to save the neighborhood.

>>That's right.

>>And so they never felt like, oh, well, our parents just we're last.

And we made sure we didn't make each other feel last.

>>I'm thinking about all of the people that you all have kind of coached over the years.

And I'm also thinking about just misconceptions on love and commitment and partnership.

So you can't tell us everything, but high level, what would you say are some of the misconceptions that you think people have that aha moment of when they're in deep commitment relationship marriage with each other.

>>I don't know.

>>I saw her look at you Frank.

>>Because I didn't want to go boom, boom, boom, boom.

>>No, I think for me, I would say, like the person you married or you got - you asked to marry you, year five goes by and you still want that person to be from year one.

And they have evolved and grown.

And you're still trying to be keep them to be that person.

And I think that's one thing people didn't realize, as far as relationships and commitment.

Now and it works on both sides.

People evolve they grow, their struggles change.

You become into something, someone a little different than you were initially.

And then people kind of get stuck in the - >>But you were.

>>but you were.

But, when did you start doing that?

>>Yeah.

And we just had like, with us, we had a situation where in our journey where Sheila started, she was like, you know what?

You know, there's some things that I need.

Additional stuff, you know?

So she started pursuing those things.

You know, and I was kind of like, okay.

But then it's like, wait a minute, she's doing something.

I need to do something.

And as I saw her grow, and I saw the beauty of how she was becoming into what she was growing into, I couldn't stay the same.

>>Yes.

>>But I think a lot of times we get complacent and relaxed and comfortable in who we are and realize that this new person that we have and we haven't allowed to appreciate them for who they are - >>Yes.

>>at that moment versus we looking at them in the past.

>>Oh, wow.

>>I want to say thank you.

>>I know.

>>Thank you for sharing that too.

Because I think we evolve so quickly.

And so when you're in partnership with someone here to even be able to see, I think you said the beauty in the evolution versus like, hold on, wait.

Where did you go?

What happened?

But to even layer that with seeing the beauty in the evolution, is a, is a beautiful thing.

>>It is.

>>Yeah.

And then to allow it to motivate you too.

To not feel threatened by - >>That's the thing.

>>shifts or changes is, I think, a level of self-awareness >>Yes.

>>that has to come into relationships too.

>>What about you?

>>And honestly confidence in who you are.

And the evolution of communication like the way you communicate, the different types of ways and tools that you can learn, if that doesn't evolve in the relationship, again, you end up stuck at year one, year two, hoping and wishing that this person would remain the same, talk to you the same, respond to you the same.

And that's just not possible.

And so I think that's one of those unrealistic expectations that people come into marriage with or come into committed relationships with, and it's avoidable, like some of the trauma that gets stirred up and some of the angst that happens between the two people, it's avoidable if you could go into it knowing you're going to grow, you're going to change, you're going to transform, and I'm here for it.

But guess what?

So am I. And so let's check in quarterly, yearly.

We're going to go away for the weekend.

We're going to leave the kids with mom and Pop.

We're going to do whatever, and we're going to sit down and talk about who are we now?

What's the best way for you to communicate with me now?

How am I responding to you now that's different >>I'm thinking about those difficult situations.

And I'll back up and say I'm thinking about Black folks and I'm thinking about sometimes the trauma we just carry.

But life often expects us to just kind of keep it going.

So sometimes we're not processing all that's happening.

Difficulty comes, something happens.

Trying to talk to your partner, not working, right?

And at the time they come to you all, if they make it to the couch, if they make it to the Battle Station.

Because we know sometimes mental health, or wellness, things of that sort, we're often not seeking professional support when it comes to that.

So it's layered, right?

I think you said earlier, like "We could have avoided it."

A little, "You don't have to be that..." So by the time they come to you, it's already very layered.

So how do you help a couple or individual?

But how do you help someone to kind of get unstuck?

Like how do you help someone when they're already in what feels like a difficult and challenging situation, to understand the tools and things that may be in front of them to get out of that space.

>>Well, I think one of the things that makes our practice unique is that we do it together.

And so a couple doesn't come in with a single gender stereotype of response, right.

We approach the couples together, and the goal in that is to create a space safe enough that the men will talk.

They will go ahead and have their say.

They'll share from their hearts.

And also for the ladies as well.

But I think the thing that anchors what we do is we unravel the story.

So we don't leave you in the past kind of rehearsing it and ruminating over it.

It's more of you all had a situation and an experience.

Are you even memorializing it the same way?

Have you made enough space where you can even hear the other person's side of it, the way they saw it, the way they experienced it?

And then if not, we help them figure out how to start doing that.

Because if I walk away from an experience or a challenging conversation or experience with my mate, and I'm ruminating in my own head and I'm answering myself and all of it, and I'm devoid of his part, then I can go and tell another girlfriend, this is what just happened between me and my husband.

And it's not 100% true, right?

So one of the things we always ask like, is that really how that happened?

Did she really say it like this, is this, you know.

And so once people start putting a - allowing for those cracks and what they thought was true.

>>Yes.

>>The roses come through the concrete.

>>Yes.

>>Right?

And you start going, oh wait.

Like, well, maybe it was my tone or maybe I did misread the situation, or maybe.

And so reasonable doubt in your own story is enough to create a new story.

And so how can we re-morialize the hard times, the things that have happened in a way that speaks to our strength and our resiliency as opposed to just our idiosyncrasies and where we don't match quite up right.

And so that's the point.

And that's the benefit of coming to therapy, of having a coach or seeking people outside of yourself, because without it, you're left to your own devices, and your devices might not be that great.

>>They might not work.

Right?

They might not be charged.

>>They might not.

They might not be that great.

Yeah.

>>That's right, that's right.

You mentioned having you both - balance of perspectives.

And I'm really thinking about Black men in particular.

They may not have always found a safe space or felt comfortable in talking and sharing.

What kind of value have you all seen?

And I'm thinking about you, Frank, as you may be connecting with the men a bit more.

What kind of value has that brought in just encouraging the men to talk a bit more, be connected to feelings, sharing that out with their spouse?

>>I think what, like I said, with us doing it together, and me getting a chance to ask that question, I think a lot of times that brings it, you know sometimes you have some men who you can tell when they're closed up, and I look for ways in which you can bring them into the conversation.

And a lot of times, if it's a thing of communication like communication or tone, and if I see kind of see that I was like, well, what he heard versus the way you said it is why he responded that way.

And so I think once they hear, oh, so I am not crazy.

So it ain't just me.

Then they feel like I can give them a little affirmation.

They can start talking a little more.

So we see a lot of that.

I think just having both of us there, a lot of times with, from what we've heard, people feel attacked.

If it's just one party, one gender person.

And so we do it with both.

And in that way, I think it helps with the men a lot of times when they they come on and they see both of us there, and it adds a friendly tone to the conversation.

>>I do think one of the powerful experiences we had, we did a couples retreat and we did it together, but then we separated the men from the women.

And I did a session with the men, and Frank did a session with the women.

>>Mmm hmm.

>>And it was so healing.

>>Yes.

>>For both, because, number one, I probably said some of the same things their wives had been saying, but because I said it different, they heard it differently.

Same thing with the ladies.

Frank went over and he said some things.

And I think also for some of the women who maybe didn't have strong male love role models in their lives growing up, fathers, uncles, grandfathers.

Frank is 6' 6".

So having a big, strong Black man say, "You're amazing.

You are beautiful.

You are valuable.

And your husband knows it.

He just might not know how to tell you."

So just I mean, just the healing things that happen with the switch.

>>Yes.

>>And there's like one example when one, one of the wives said something and I'm standing there in front of them, and I said, if you'd have said that to me, my feelings would have been hurt.

And she went, right.

"What do you mean?"

I said, no, I'm listening to you.

If you said it that way, my feelings would've been hurt.

So how do you think your husband feels?

And she starts crying.

>>Yeah.

And it was like, oh, okay.

So now - >>But she was able to still receive that - from you, right?

>>Right, still received it.

And it's like she hadn't even really looked at it through that lens.

But hearing what a man say that would hurt.

Because he shut down.

And so we talked about that too.

But that like, it's like the perspectives that came from those switching those sessions.

>>Yeah.

>>This year we did a, I like what you called it earlier, >>A companion.

>>A companion journal.

>>So it's called, "Can I share My Heart With You?

And it's on Amazon now.

And the idea around it is for those who struggle with verbal communication, you start the sentence with, "Can I share my heart with you?"

And then you write in this journal.

And then you pass the journal somewhere where your partner will see it.

So I tell the ladies, put it on a seat in his car, or put it next to the coffee machine where you know he's going to see it.

We tell the fellows, okay, when you write back put it under her pillow, put it in her car, next to her laptop bag so that she'll have it.

But it gives you an opportunity to sit with what your partner is saying as opposed to immediately responding in a way that might not be healthy.

Right?

>>[Adrienne] Yes.

>>We know that a lot of times when there's conflict, people are listening for their response, not listening to what you're saying.

The journal gives you an opportunity to, in an uninterrupted way, share your heart.

What is this really about?

What are we really fighting about?

And what we learned is that when people have this type of exchange this way, what comes out of it is not just what they're fighting about, but what they're fighting for.

What are you fighting for?

Are you recognizing that you're on the same team?

Do you realize that this thing that you've labeled as a problem or a challenge really is a front or a mask for something deeper?

That the two of you really could work on and resolve so that these little things don't destroy the vine.

Like they say, the small foxes destroy the vine.

So the journal is interactive.

It's meant to be engaging.

And while we talking about it in the context of couples, we have moms and daughters who do it.

We have girlfriends who are just friends can do it.

And so it's.

>>Father and son.

>>Father and son, Grandma and granddaughter.

Can you imagine, like your mom writing to your daughter, sharing her heart with her about watching her grow up and the things that she's experiencing, things your daughter wants to know from her grandmother.

She can write her questions in there.

And so it's meant to be interactive.

Like I said, we kind of started it with couples, but we've seen it go in every direction, in every relational direction area.

>>And it was something that we did by accident.

>>Okay.

Okay.

Okay.

>>And we just kind of took like it was a Dollar General something notepad.

Actually, my wife started, Sheila started, she wrote something down and I'll admit the first time it was like when you read it and it's like, oh.

And then it was like, okay pages.

And I was scanning.

Well it's like, but then you have to respond back.

And so we started making that something that we did.

And then as time went by, >>We started doing it with our girls.

>>We started out with our girls, and then we said, hey.

And the journal doesn't have, it does say the - it just says, Can I share my heart with you?

There aren't a lot of prompts because it's open.

Open on what, you're sharing your heart.

So to put certain prompts in was like, ah, no, just share your heart with the person.

>>I love it.

I love the deep simplicity of that.

>>Yes.

>>Yes.

And they have it forever.

>>I want to talk about love in leadership.

So nurturing love in leadership.

What does it look like when couples or just visionaries are building something together while still staying connected to one another?

Right?

I mean, you all are an example of that.

Building - building this, expanding, things of the sort.

But still having to make sure that you're staying connected and grounded amongst that.

Advice, thoughts, what's worked for you all?

Outside of the run away, outside of running away.

>>Run away.

Run away as often as possible.

>>That's right.

>>I think we from the beginning made a decision that we would share dreams with each other.

So before any of this was a business, it was just our house.

It was never in our mind that we would get a business license and we would have contracts and procurement, like we were never thinking of it in that way.

But doors continue to open, opportunities continue to present themselves.

And we had to make sure that, like we said earlier, we were still on pace with each other.

So what is this evolving into?

How do you feel like for us, God is leading us in this way?

And so keeping that communication going, I would have never signed up to do a podcast.

Like that was just not something I was thinking of.

And so when he brought that to me, we have our rituals of prayer and silence and waiting and making sure that we're doing what we're supposed to do.

That it's the right time, it's the right season.

But also, I had to accept this is a dream.

Like he really wants to do this.

And so being on the same page, recognizing that you're a team, recognizing that if your spouse wants to do something together, that there's something that you bring to the table that is apparently valuable and leaning into that, even if it's not really your thing, just leaning into it and being able to say, you know what?

Because I love you, and because your eyes light up when you talk about this, because you seem so passionate about it, then yeah, let's try it.

Let's do it.

And so giving the gift of yes to one another, even if our preference would be to say no is an amazing thing.

And we've had enough successes and enough failures to recognize when something is ours to do together and when it's something each of us is assigned to individually.

And it's okay, >>You know, as we're thinking about love, Black love, romantic community, things of this sort, what things, if someone's watching this, what would you want to say to them about the topic?

What would you want them to leave with today?

>>That you are deserving of it.

That there's no extra effort that you have to do.

There's no extra tasks, there's no extra benchmarks that you have to make.

You breathing makes you worthy enough to love and to be loved.

And while you may have been loved poorly or badly or in an unhealthy way in the past, it doesn't disqualify you from good love in the future, and for right now.

And so find your people.

Find your tribe.

Choose the people who choose you.

Don't stay in spaces where love doesn't flow.

Because if it doesn't flow, it just aggravates and antagonizes and adds to those historical stories about why you don't think you deserve it, or why do you don't think love is real.

>>Battles, I thank you all.

Thank you all for coming to sit on our couch outside of the Battle Station.

>>It's nice sitting on somebody else's couch for a change.

This was nice.

>>And just for sharing so many of your experiences, but also who you all are and what you represent to us in the community is just, words can't express what that means.

So, thank you all for being here with us today on "Racism: Challenging Perceptions."

>>Thank you for having us.

>>Thank you.

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