♪ KRISTEN: WELCOME TO "BASIC BLACK."

SOME OF YOU ARE JOINING US ON OUR BROADCAST AND OTHERS OF YOU ARE JOINING US ON OUR DIGITAL PLATFORMS.

I’M KRISTEN POPE, YOUR HOST.

WE HAVE A GREAT SHOW FOR YOU TONIGHT ABOUT THE HISTORY OF BLACK DOLLS.

BLACK DOLLS HAVE BEEN AROUND SINCE THE 1800'S IN DIFFERENT SHAPES, SIZES AND STYLES.

DOLLS HELP WITH A CHILD'S DEVELOPMENT, THEIR ABILITY TO IMAGINE AND SEE THEMSELVES IN THE WORLD.

SO FOR KIDS OF COLOR, OWNING A DOLL THAT LOOKS LIKE THEM WITH THE SAME SKIN TONE, SIMILAR FEATURES AND EVEN HAIR TEXTURE IS A BEAUTIFUL THING.

JOINING ME TONIGHT TO DISCUSS: WIDLINE PYRAME, FOUNDER AND CEO OF FUSION DOLLS, WITH A STORE IN THE WESTGATE MALL IN BROCKTON, MASSACHUSETTS.

DEBRA BRITT, FOUNDER AND EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE NATIONAL BLACK DOLL MUSEUM OF HISTORY & CULTURE IN NORTH ATTLEBORO, MASSACHUSETTS.

LISA SIMMONS, ARTISTIC EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE ROXBURY INTERNATIONAL FILM FESTIVAL.

AND DR. TAHIRAH ABDULLAH-SWAIN, AN ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF PSYCHOLOGY AT UMASS BOSTON.

THANK YOU ALL, WELCOME.

I’M SO HAPPY THAT WE ARE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION IN BLACK HISTORY MONTH.

I WANT TO START OFF WITH A QUESTION.

LISA, I’M GOING TO START WITH YOU.

DID YOU HAVE A BLACK DOLL GROWING UP?

LISA: I DID NOT.

I FEEL LIKE I WAS PLAYING MORE WITH STUFFED ANIMALS AND DOLLS AT THE TIME.

WHEN I WAS GROWING UP, THERE WASN’T A BLACK BARBIE.

THERE WERE MADAME ALEXANDER DOLLS.

I REMEMBER GETTING ONE WHEN I WAS YOUNGER.

FOR THE MOST PART, I DIDN’T HAVE A LOT OF DOLLS.

KRISTEN: WOW.

I WILL GO TO YOU.

>> WE DIDN’T REALLY HAVE BLACK DOLLS.

I REMEMBER ONE OF MY UNCLES CAME FROM NEW YORK AND HE BROUGHT ONE DOLL TO US TO HAITI.

IT DIDN’T REALLY HAVE OUR FEATURES.

I REMEMBER OPENING THE BOX.

REALLY EXCITING.

WE CLOSED IT AGAIN BECAUSE WE DIDN’T WANT ANYTHING TO HAPPEN TO HER.

YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

KRISTEN: BEAUTIFUL FIGURE THAT YOU DIDN’T WANT TO DAMAGE.

WIDLINE: SHE WAS SO PRECIOUS.

SOMETIME WHEN KIDS HAVE DOLLS, THEY CUT THEIR HAIR.

KRISTEN: HOW ABOUT YOU?

DEBRA: I HAD A BLACK DOLL.

MY FIRST DOLL WAS A WHITE DOLL.

I FELL IN LOVE WITH IT.

MY PARENTS TOOK IT AWAY BECAUSE THEY SAID IT DIDN’T LOOK LIKE ME.

BUT MY GRANDMOTHER WHO WAS A MAID BROUGHT HOME A WHITE DOLL, TOOK IT APART, DIED IT BLACK AND I HEARD MY DAD HAD MY FIRST BLACK DOLL.

-- I HAD MY FIRST BLACK DOLL.

KRISTEN: WHAT DID IT MEAN THAT SHE DID THAT FOR YOU?

DEBRA: EVERYTHING.

MY GRANDMA WAS EVERYTHING TO ME.

SHOW ME HOW TO MAKE DOLLS.

MADE ME FEEL BEAUTIFUL AND EMPOWERED.

KRISTEN: WOW.

HOW ABOUT YOU?

TAHIRAH: I WAS LUCKY TO HAVE A FEW OF THEM.

I WAS ABLE TO BRAID AND PUT BEADS IN HER HAIR.

I WAS LUCKY TO HAVE A VARIETY OF THREE THAT I CAN REMEMBER HAVING.

KENYA, HUGGY BEEN.

I DON’T REMEMBER THE OTHER ONE BUT SHE LOOKED MORE LIKE BARBIE.

SHE WASN’T AN ACTUAL BARBIE.

KRISTEN: IT’S INTERESTING TO HEAR THE DIFFERENT STORIES.

HOW ALL OF YOU ARE PARTICIPATING IN SOME FORM OF REPRESENTATION FOR BLACK PEOPLE.

LISA, I WILL COME BACK TO YOU ABOUT REPRESENTATION.

YOU DIDN’T HAVE BLACK DOLLS GROWING UP.

HE SAID IT WASN’T A THING.

YOU FOCUSED ON STUFFED ANIMALS.

LISA: I THINK AS I GREW UP, SEEING THESE BLACK DOLLS, I KNOW THE KENYA DOLL.

BUT I THINK IT’S ALL ABOUT REPRESENTATION.

IT’S REALLY IMPORTANT.

I THINK IT’S INTERESTING TO LOOK AT THE EVOLUTION AND THE HISTORY OF BLACK DOLLS.

MATCHING THAT WITH MEDIA AND HOW REPRESENTATIONS OF BLACK PEOPLE IN MEDIA CHANGED OVER THE COURSE OF TIME.

OBVIOUSLY FROM JIM CROW TO PRESENT DAY AND HOW THE BLACK DOLL EVOLUTION HAS GONE WITH IT.

THAT TO ME IS FASCINATING.

FROM WHEN WE SAW SARAH JANE THROWING AWAY THE DOLL THAT SHE GOT IN IMITATION OF LIFE BECAUSE OF NEGATIVITY TO NOW WHEN YOU HAVE THE KENYA DOLL, CLEAN SUGAR BLUE IS PLAYING WITH THE DOLL.

IT IS BEING USED AS REPRESENTATION.

GROWING UP, THE MADAME ALEXANDER DOLLS WERE PRECIOUS AND YOU DIDN’T WANT TO PLAY WITH THEM.

I THINK IT IS SO IMPORTANT.

KRISTEN: WE HAVE BOTH OF THOSE CLIPS.

THE ONE WITH SARAH JANE AND WE ALSO HAVE QUEEN SUGAR.

ONE OF THE THINGS I FOUND FASCINATING ABOUT WHAT YOU SAID IS ALL THESE EXAMPLES YOU HAVE NOW.

YOU CITED ALL THESE EXAMPLES THAT WE KNOW HAVE NOT ALWAYS BEEN THERE.

TAKE US BACK.

TAKE US BACK.

BRING US THROUGH THE JOURNEY A BIT.

AS CONCISELY AS YOU CAN, BRING US BACK TO THE HISTORY.

DEBRA: HISTORY.

FIRST DOLLS WERE AFRICAN DOLLS.

WE HAVE TO REMEMBER WHERE WE COME FROM.

THERE WAS THE PANEL DOLL.

MOST AFRICAN DOLLS WERE MADE FOR EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES, RELIGIOUS, SPIRITUAL REASONS.

AND SO PEOPLE IN AFRICA, OUR ANCESTORS ADORED THEM.

CHILDREN ADORE THEM, THOSE TYPE OF DOLLS.

WE GET ON THIS SHIP AND WE COME TO THE UNITED STATES.

THEY BRING WITH THEM THEIR MEMORIES.

PEOPLE FROM AFRICA, KINGS AND QUEENS, SEAMSTRESSES.

THEY BROUGHT THOSE THINGS HERE.

THE NEXT DOLL DURING THAT TIME WOULD BE A GOURD WITH AN APPLE HEAD ON THE TOP.

THEY DRESSED IT AND THAT WAS THE FIRST DOLLS THAT OUR CHILDREN PLAYED WITH.

BLACK CHILDREN WEREN’T ALLOWED TO HAVE BLACK DOLLS DURING SLAVERY TIMES.

THAT’S WHEN WE COME INTO THE TOPSY-TURVY DOLLS.

WHITE DOLL ON ONE SIDE, BLACK DOLL ON THE OTHERS.

ENSLAVED MOTHERS MADE THEM BECAUSE THEY WEREN’T ALLOWED.

WHEN THE MASTER WAS AROUND, THE BROWN SIDE WAS DOWN.

THEY HAD TO HIDE THIS DOLL FROM THE MASTER.

THEY WOULD PRETEND THAT THEY WOULD BE SERVANTS.

THAT’S WHY THEY HAD THE WHITE DOLL, TEACHING MY CHILD HOW TO TAKE CARE OF YOU AND YOUR CHILDREN.

THAT’S WHAT THEY DID WITH THAT TOPSY-TURVY DOLL.

THEN WE GO TO 1904.

YOU HAVE THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOYD PUBLISHING COMPANY.

HE WAS A SLAVE AND TAUGHT HIMSELF TO READ AND WRITE.

AS HE’S DOING THAT, HE’S DELIVERING THESE FANS TO ALL THE CHURCHES.

HE’S LOOKING AT THE CHILDREN AND THEN HE DECIDES, THEY NEED TO HAVE DOLLS THAT LOOK LIKE THEM.

HE WAS SEEING THESE OTHER KINDS OF DOLLS.

HE GOT THEM FROM EUROPE.

AT THAT TIME, THERE WERE COMPOSITION DOLLS.

KRISTEN: YOU MENTIONED THAT EARLIER IN A SIDEBAR CONVERSATION.

ABOUT THE FEATURES.

THE FEATURES BEING ACCURATE IN ONE SCENARIO OF BLACK DOLLS BUT NOT IN ANOTHER.

DEBRA: NOT IN THE UNITED STATES BUT EUROPE.

THEY APPRECIATED THE ETHNIC FEATURES.

THEY THOUGHT WE WERE EXOTIC.

THEY WERE IN EUROPE.

EUROPEAN.

HE HAD THOSE DOLLS BROUGHT HERE.

1919.

SAYING, MOTHERS GIVE YOUR CHILDREN DOLLS THAT LOOK LIKE THEM SO THEY CAN LEARN TO LOVE THEMSELVES AND CUDDLE THEMSELVES SO THEY CAN DO THAT WITH THEIR CHILDREN.

KRISTEN: WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR CHILDREN NOT TO HAVE DOLLS, REPRESENTATIONS OF THEMSELVES THAT THEY CAN CUDDLE, PLAY WITH, IMAGINE WITH?

TAHIRAH: IN A LOT OF WAYS, IT’S ANOTHER WAY THAT OUR SOCIETY IS REPLICATING THE SAME KIND OF MESSAGES THAT WE’VE BEEN INUNDATED WITH FOR EONS.

THE MESSAGES ABOUT LACK OF SELF-WORTH OR LACK OF WORTH OF BLACK PEOPLE.

SO HEARING YOU TALK ABOUT THE HISTORY OF THE TOPSY-TURVY DOLL REALLY MAKES ME THINK ABOUT HOW CRITICAL IT WAS TO THE MOTHERS OF THOSE ENSLAVED CHILDREN TO MAKE SURE THAT THEIR KIDS WERE ABLE TO SEE REPRESENTATIONS OF THEMSELVES, EVEN IN THE MIDST OF BEING ENSLAVED.

AND THAT SAME THING CONTINUES TO BE IMPORTANT TODAY.

CONTINUES TO BE IMPORTANT FOR US TO SEE REPRESENTATIONS OF OURSELVES AND BUILD UP OUR PRIDE AS BLACK PEOPLE.

HAVING DOLLS THAT ARE REPRESENTATIONS OF THAT, TO BE ABLE TO PLAY WITH DOLLS AND NURTURE DOLLS ARE WAYS THAT WE CAN BEGIN TO REPLICATE SOME OF THOSE IMPORTANT PIECES OF BLACK PRIDE.

KRISTEN: SO THANK YOU FOR ADDING THAT.

THIS REPRESENTATION BEAST, -- PEACE, THE MESSAGES THAT ARE GETTING SENT.

I WANT TO GO TO THIS CLIP THAT YOU MAY BE FAMILIAR WITH.

DR. KENNETH CLARK, THE PSYCHOLOGIST WHO ALONG WITH HIS WIFE MAMIE CLARK CONDUCTED THE FAMOUS DOLL STUDY THAT WAS PRESENTED IN THE 1954 LANDMARK BROWN VS. BOARD OF EDUCATION CASE BEFORE THE SUPREME COURT, SPOKE WITH CARMEN FIELDS, COHOST OF THE 10:00 NEWS IN 1988 ABOUT THE STUDY AND ITS RELEVANCE.

HERE IS A PORTION OF WHAT DR. CLARK SAID.

>> WELL WHAT I SEE NOW IS THAT WE HAVE TO HELP WHITE CHILDREN AS WELL AS BLACK CHILDREN DEVELOP POSITIVE HEALTHY SENSE OF THEIR OWN BEING, SELF-RESPECT.

RACISM AS I SEE IT IS INDICATIVE OF LACK OF SELF-RESPECT OF ALL THE GROUPS.

YOU DON'T HATE OTHER HUMAN BEINGS, IF YOU HAVE A POSITIVE SENSE OF YOUR OWN BEING.

HAVE THOSE DOLLS THERE AS THE BEGINNING OF COMMUNICATING A SENSE OF HUMANITY AND DECENCY.

KRISTEN: RACISM.

STEMMING AND DIRECTLY RELATED TO A NEGATIVE SENSE OF SELF.

YOU HAVE AN INTERESTING STORY.

YOU ARE AN IMMIGRANT TO THIS COUNTRY.

YOU ARE COMING FROM HAITI BUT STILL YOU DIDN’T HAVE THIS REPRESENTATION.

DID YOU FEEL THAT YOU HAD A NEGATIVE SELF -- SENSE OF SELF-WORTH AS A RESULT?

WIDLINE: WHEN I WAS YOUNGER, WE ONLY HAD THAT ONE DOLL AND HER HAIR WAS NOT LIKE MINE.

I REMEMBER WANTING MY HAIR TO BE JUST LIKE MY DOLL WHICH WAS STRAIGHT.

AT THE AGE OF NINE YEARS OLD, I REMEMBER JUST WANTING MY HAIR TO BE STRAIGHT.

I DIDN’T LIKE MY KINKY CURLY HAIR.

WHAT I DID WAS SEE PEOPLE PERMED THEIR HAIR.

I PERMED MY HAIR WITHOUT MY MOM KNOWING.

IT WAS CRAZY.

IT WASN’T UNTIL I GOT OLDER THAT I STARTED TO REALLY LOVE MY HAIR, LOVE MY NATURAL HAIR, AND LEARN HOW TO DO MY NATURAL HAIR.

A FEW YEARS LATER, I DID MY LOCS.

AFTER THAT, IT IS SO IMPORTANT FOR US TO LOVE WHO WE ARE.

OUR HAIR IS OUR CROWN.

THERE ARE SO MANY THINGS OUT THERE.

ALL OF US COME FROM DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS.

YOU ARE SEEING SO MANY DIFFERENT THINGS.

YOU ARE LIKE, I JUST WANT TO BE LIKE THIS.

KRISTEN: BECAUSE THERE IS THIS DISCONNECT BETWEEN THE HAIR THAT YOU HAVE OR THEY HAIR YOU WANT TO SEE.

WE DON’T WANT TO RUN PAST THAT.

TALK TO US ABOUT FUSION DOLLS.

WIDLINE: DEFINITELY MY BABY.

IT WAS BORN IN THE MIDST OF EVERYTHING AFTER I STARTED TO REALLY LOVE MY HAIR TEXTURE.

UNLIKE, OK, IT’S IMPORTANT FOR KIDS TO HAVE ADULT LIKE THEM.

FUSION DOLLS ARE ABOUT REPRESENTATION.

WHEN YOU COME, YOU SEE THE DOLLS THAT LOOK LIKE YOU.

THE KIDS ARE SO EXCITED.

WHEN I FIRST STARTED, I WAS SELLING IN DIFFERENT PLACES.

NOW I HAVE MY OWN STORE WHERE THE KIDS CAN COME.

THEY RUN IN THE STORE BECAUSE THEY FINALLY SEE SOMETHING THAT THEY CAN CONNECT WITH, THAT THEY CAN SEE THEMSELVES IN.

THEY SAY, SHE LOOKS JUST LIKE ME.

THE MOM CAN JUST GET THEM THE DOLL.

KRISTEN: DOES THAT MAKE YOU FEEL LIKE, MISSION ACCOMPLISHED?

WIDLINE: YES.

SOMETIMES I CRY.

WHAT WOULD YOU DO FOR YOUR YOUNGER SELF?

KRISTEN: THAT IS SO GOOD.

WHAT WOULD YOU DO FOR YOUR YOUNGER SELF?

MY DAUGHTER HAS ONE OF THOSE DOLLS.

I HAVE TO BRING HER SO SHE CAN HAVE THIS EXPERIENCE.

YOU KNOW, WITH WHAT YOU SAID, IT’S NOT JUST THE DOLL.

IT’S HAVING THE DOLL BUT IT’S ALSO HAVING A DOLL THAT LOOKS LIKE YOU TO GET YOU SPOKE TO THAT.

IT’S NOT JUST ENOUGH TO HAVE JUST A BROWN DOLL.

YOU ALSO HAVE TO HAVE A DOLL THAT HAS YOUR FEATURES, YOUR HAIR, ALL OF THOSE THINGS.

WE ARE NOT A MONOLITH.

WE NEED TO SEE OURSELVES IN ALL OF THESE DIFFERENT WAYS.

LISA, YOU SPOKE ABOUT THAT CLIP FROM IMITATION OF LIFE.

I WANT YOU TO TALK ABOUT THAT.

THIS CLIP THAT WE HAVE HERE -- COLOR AND RACE WERE CENTRAL TO THE STORY IN THE 1959 CLASSIC FILM, "IMITATION OF LIFE," STARRING JUANITA MOORE AND LANA TURNER.

IN THIS SCENE, THE LIGHT-SKINNED BLACK CHILD OBJECTS TO PLAYING WITH HER BLACK DOLL, ILLUSTRATING HER STRUGGLE WITH ACCEPTING HER AFRICAN AMERICAN IDENTITY.

WATCH.

SUZIE: SARAH JANE, YOU CAN HAVE NANCY.

IT'S A PRESENT, MOMMY JUST GOT IT FOR ME.

SJ: I WANT THAT ONE.

SUZIE: FREDA'S MY FRIEND.

I'VE HAD HER ALL MY LIFE.

MOMMY.

MOMMY!

SHE TOOK MY DOLL.

ANNIE: SARAH JANE, WHERE ARE YOUR MANNERS?

NOW GIVE IT BACK.

SJ: I DON'T WANT THE BLACK ONE.

KRISTEN: WHAT DO WE FEEL WATCHING THAT?

LISA: PAIN.

IT WAS DURING THAT TIME.

1959.

THERE WAS SO MUCH HATRED FOR BLACK PEOPLE.

JIM CROW.

THERE ARE ALL THESE SORTS OF THINGS AND DOLLS THAT ARE CREATED TO PUT BLACK PEOPLE IN THEIR PLACE.

TO VALIDATE WHAT WAS GOING ON IN THE COUNTRY.

SO YOU HAVE A MIXED-RACE CHILD WHO JUST SO DOESN’T WANT TO IDENTIFY WITH HER BLACKNESS.

WHICH ISN’T SAYING THAT IT DOESN’T COME THROUGH THE COURSE OF TIME TO PRESENT DAY.

BUT I THINK THAT AS WE LOOK AT MEDIA AND SHOWS, AS WE ARE MOVING FROM THE 1970’S TO THE SITCOMS LIKE GOOD TIMES AND THEN MOVING INTO LIVING SIGNAL AND MARTIN, WE ARE SEEING THAT THE BLACK DOLLS ARE USED IN A POSITIVE WAY.

THEY ARE USED FOR COMFORT.

ONE OF MY FAVORITE FILMS IS, SHE HAS A BLACK RAGDOLL THAT SHE’S CARRYING AROUND.

SHE HAS DEMENTIA.

IT’S HER COMFORT.

THAT’S WHERE THE SHIFT STARTS TO HAPPEN AND IT’S A WONDERFUL SHIFT IN MEDIA.

WE SEE IT EVEN IN THE BODYGUARD WHEN WHITNEY HOUSTON GOES ON THE BED AND SHE’S A COLLECTOR.

LIVING SINGLE.

ONE CHARACTER IS GOING TO SUE THE TOY COMPANY BECAUSE THE DOLL LOOKS LIKE HER.

THOSE ARE THE KINDS OF THINGS.

MEDIA IS A POWERFUL SOURCE.

IF YOU HAVE YOUR BLACK DOLL, YOU DON’T NECESSARILY SEE IT AROUND YOUR WORLD.

BUT THEN YOU ARE CONNECTED TO MEDIA AND WATCHING TV.

IT’S IMPORTANT THAT THESE SHOWS STEPPED UP IN A SENSE IN THE BLACK DOLL SPACE AND REALLY USED THEM AS A WAY FOR BLACK WOMEN, MEN, CHILDREN TO UNDERSTAND THE VALUE OF BLACK PEOPLE.

KRISTEN: THANK YOU FOR THAT.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE SHARED WAS THAT YOU COULD HAVE A BLACK CHILD, BLACK PARENTS, HAVE THE DOLLS, BUT STILL BE STRUGGLING.

TELL US ABOUT -- YOU HAVE A FAMILY STORY.

WOULD YOU MIND SHARING IT?

DEBRA: MY FAMILY STORY?

KRISTEN: OF A CHILD WHO WAS STRUGGLING EVEN WITH ALL OF THIS BEAUTIFUL BLACKNESS, STILL STRUGGLING WITH REPRESENTATION.

DEBRA: IT JUST UPSET ME.

I HAD A NEPHEW WHO WAS FIVE.

WE WERE ON A SOCCER FIELD.

HE SAID, I DON’T WANT TO BE BLACK.

LOOK AT ALL THESE PEOPLE.

THEY ARE WHITE.

SANTA CLAUS WILL NEVER COME.

IT BLEW ME AWAY THAT SOMETHING LIKE THAT COULD HAPPEN.

I MADE IT MY BUSINESS, MY MISSION TO MAKE SURE THAT WHEN CHRISTMAS TIME CAME AROUND, HE WOULD SEE A BLACK SANTA.

IT STARTED MY JOURNEY ON COLLECTING SANTAS.

I NOW HAVE OVER 2000.

KRISTEN: IF ANYONE IS LOOKING FOR A BLACK SANTA, WE KNOW WHERE THEY ARE.

DEBRA HAS THEM.

MY GOODNESS.

DEBRA: FOR CHRISTMAS I TOLD MY HUSBAND, I WANT THE STOREFRONT.

I KNEW IF HE HAD A SANTA, AND I HAD ALL KINDS OF BLACK DOLLS, I WOULD DRESS MY DOLLS IN RED AND WHITE.

I SAID, I WANT THE NEIGHBORHOOD KIDS TO SEE THIS.

THIS IS MY HOME.

I HAVE ALL THIS BLACKNESS AROUND ME.

SO MY HUSBAND GOT ME ONE AND WE PUT SANTAS IN AND LET THE KIDS COME IN FOR FREE.

THAT WAS MY CHRISTMAS PRESENT FROM ME AND FROM ME TO THE COMMUNITY.

KRISTEN: WHAT HAS THAT MEANT TO YOUR NEPHEW?

HOW OLD IS HE NOW?

DEBRA: HE’S 30!

KRISTEN: WHAT HAS THAT MEANT TO HIM?

DEBRA: IT MEANS A LOT.

HE’S ONE OF THE FEW NEPHEWS THAT I HAVE THAT COMES BY EVERY CHRISTMAS, PUTS THE SANTAS UP WITH ME.

HE HELPS ME EVERY CHRISTMAS.

HE MAKES SURE THE SANTAS COME UP.

BUT I THINK IT WAS BECAUSE HE KNEW.

IT MEANT SO HOT -- SO MUCH TO HIM TO BE ABLE TO SAY, THERE IS A BLACK SANTA.

KRISTEN: YOU INVESTED IN HIM AND HIS IDENTITY.

TALK TO US ABOUT THIS IDENTITY PIECE WHICH IS SO HUGE.

TAHIRAH: IT IS HUGE.

THE STORY YOU SHARED REALLY RESONATE -- RESONATES IN A NUMBER OF WAYS.

PARTICULARLY, I THINK ABOUT HOW WE ARE SO INUNDATED WITH MESSAGES THAT ARE COMMUNICATING INFERIORITY AND ALL THOSE SORTS OF THINGS.

AND YOU KNOW, WHEN WE THINK ABOUT HOW IDENTITY DEVELOPS AND HOW RACIAL IDENTITY IN PARTICULAR DEVELOPS, BEING ABLE TO NOT ONLY SEE YOURSELF REPRESENTED BUT ALSO HAVE THOSE REALLY POSITIVE IMAGES AND A VARIETY OF IMAGES SO THAT WE AREN’T THINKING OF OURSELVES IN JUST ONE YOU NEED TO MENTION AWAY.

HAVING THAT MULTIFACETED LAYERS OF IDENTITY ARE SO IMPORTANT.

I THINK ABOUT BEING IN SPACES WHERE YOU’RE ABLE TO SEE THE WIDE VARIETY OF POSSIBILITIES AND HOW IMPORTANT THAT IS FOR THE FORMATION OF A STRONG RACIAL IDENTITY FOR BLACK KIDS.

KRISTEN: SOMETHING YOU SAID REMINDS ME OF JUST THE WAY WE ARE NOT A MONOLITH, THESE MESSAGES HAVE TO BE EVERYWHERE.

THEY HAVE TO BE EVERYWHERE.

WE ARE REMINDED THAT IT NEVER -- IN OTHER WAYS, THEY ARE EVERYWHERE.

FOR THE CHILDREN IN MAJORITY CULTURE, THEY ARE EVERYWHERE.

WE ARE STILL TRYING TO DISSEMINATE THE MESSAGE IN MEDIA, IN THE STORES THROUGH THE DOLLS, THROUGH HISTORY, THROUGH PSYCHOLOGY.

WE ARE STILL TRYING TO GET -- WE STILL HAVE TO PUT IT SO FAR AND SO WIDE AND SO DEEP TO GET TAHIRAH: ABSOLUTELY.

IT’S HARD WHEN THE MESSAGE IS ONLY COMING IN ONE PLACE, LIKE AT THE HOME.

WE ARE NOT GETTING THE SAME MESSAGE WHEN YOU’RE AT SCHOOL, OTHER PLACES WHERE YOU ARE SPENDING MOST OF YOUR DAY.

SO THERE REALLY IS A NEED FOR THE SAME WAYS THE MESSAGES THAT COMMUNICATE THESE NEGATIVE THINGS ABOUT BLACKNESS ARE SO PERVASIVE IN ALL ASPECTS OF OUR SOCIETY.

WE NEED THOSE COUNTER MESSAGES TO BE PERVASIVE IN ALL ASPECTS OF SOCIETY.

KRISTEN: SO I WANT US TO BE LEFT WITH HOPE.

I FEEL LIKE I’M SITTING IN HOPE.

BUT WITH THE COUPLE MINUTES THAT WE HAVE LEFT, WHAT IS THE HOPE THAT WE HAVE IN THIS MOMENT?

LISA: THE HOPE IS THAT PEOPLE ARE CREATING IMAGERY NOT ONLY IN DOLLS BUT ALSO IN MEDIA AND FILM.

I THINK THAT THERE’S DEFINITELY A SHIFT EVEN IN COMMERCIALS AND ADVERTISEMENT.

WE ARE SEEING MORE POSITIVE IMAGES OF PEOPLE OF COLOR.

THEY ARE JUST EVERYWHERE.

I THINK THAT’S HOPEFUL.

I THINK THE MORE THAT THE STORY GETS TOLD IN A DIVERSE WAY, THE BETTER OFF WE ARE AS A COUNTRY, AS A WORLD.

PEOPLE UNDERSTAND AND SEE THESE DIVERSE IMAGES OF PEOPLE OF COLOR ALL AROUND THE WORLD.

I’M VERY HOPEFUL IN THE WORK THAT I SEE IN INDEPENDENT FILMMAKERS.

I’M HOPEFUL IN THE WORK THAT WILL BE COMING ACROSS THE AIRWAVES MOVING FORWARD AND INTO THE FUTURE.

I THINK IT’S EXCITING TO SEE THAT.

KRISTEN: IT IS EXCITING.

WE ARE GOING TO TALK ABOUT SOME OF THAT WORK THAT’S COMING UP HERE GET THERE IS COMING UP IN FILM.

WE WANT TO HEAR WHAT YOU’VE GOT COMING DOWN THE LINE.

DEBRA, TAKE US ON A FIELD TRIP.

WE NEED TO GO SEE THE MUSEUM AND REALLY REVEL IN THAT.

THANK YOU FOR THAT.

WE NEED THE HOPE FOR OUR CHILDREN.

WE NEED TO KNOW THAT THINGS ARE HAPPENING.

WE NEED TO KNOW WHAT WE SHOULD BE DOING.

WHAT SHOULD WE BE DOING THIS -- TO DISSEMINATE THIS MESSAGE?

WHAT OTHER PLACES SHOULD WE BE TALKING ABOUT?

WHO NEEDS TO CREATE SOMETHING?

WHAT FEDERAL FUNDING POLICY NEEDS TO BE MADE THAT BENEFITS THIS EFFORT, BENEFITS YOUR MUSEUM?

I’M GRATEFUL FOR THIS CONVERSATION THAT WE ARE GOING TO CONTINUE.

THIS IS THE END OF OUR BROADCAST OF THIS SHOW.

I WANT TO THANK ALL OF OUR GUESTS.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

STAY WITH US AS WE CONTINUE THIS FANTASTIC CONVERSATION ON OUR DIGITAL PLATFORMS, YOUTUBE, AND FACEBOOK.

♪