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[MOTIVATIONAL MUSIC] - Hey, everyone, Steve Adubato.

An important, compelling, and timely conversation with our friend, Dr.

Perry Halkitis, who is the author of this book, "Humanizing Public Health: How Disease Centered Approaches Have Failed Us."

Good to see you, my friend.

- Hey, Steve, good to see you too.

- Listen, whether you like it or not, we got you for the entire half hour to talk about this book.

- I love it.

- Main message of the book is?

- Main message of the book is implied in the title that public health has to be more human-centered.

And by that, what I mean is, one, putting people at the center of everything that we do.

But number two, thinking about how human beings act and not assuming that we are machines that just respond automatically to health situations that we don't respond automatically like automatons.

And number three, 'cause I think it cuts three ways, is individuals being human to each other and showing humanity to each other.

And I think all of those three things are the themes that run through the book about humanizing public health.

- Perry, I did a disservice to our audience and to you because it's important that people have a context, have some context for who you are and why this issue is not simply a clinical and professional medical issue for you, it is personal.

By way of background, explain to folks your scholarly academic background and interest.

- Yeah.

So I've been working in infectious disease my entire life.

And in some ways I've defined my life and my career by these two huge pandemics I've lived through, HIV in the early '80s as a young man in New York City, COVID-19.

And, you know, Steve, we talked a lot during COVID-19.

I was immersed here in New Jersey with our friends trying to get things to be better.

And, you know, really have thought about over the course of these last 40 years, all of the advances we've made, biomedically, we've made amazing, amazing advances.

Even if you think about mRNA vaccines that now seem to help pancreatic cancer, that's enormous things.

But what we haven't done so well is realize that people are flawed, that people make decisions based on what feels good, not necessarily what's right, based on their own selfish interest, which, unfortunately, in the last five to ten years has gotten even worse.

- So let me try this, so very often in our programming, and you'll see a team, everyone watching, you'll see a graphic that comes up, "Trust in Public Health."

Because there is a whole, there's a degree of mistrust, there's tremendous amount of misinformation.

I won't get on my soapbox here, Perry, but people pursue and follow platforms, information platforms that often reinforce what they already think they believe in technologically through social media.

Obviously, people don't need me to tell you about algorithms.

I'm getting to this.

If people mistrust the public health leaders, the term infrastructure is ridiculous, it's not about pipes, it's public health leaders.

If people distrust public health leaders who say, "Just follow the science," and millions do distrust what that science is, or they find their own science, trust me, there's a question here, why is all this relevant?

Why is it relevant, Perry, if people are saying, "I don't buy it, I don't buy what the CDC says, I don't buy what they're saying about vaccines.

I don't, I just don't trust it, 'cause my information is that that's not accurate."

What's the problem?

What's the problem with people just finding information about public health anywhere that tells them they're right?

- Well, I think that's the whole, I think that's the whole point of the book, what you're saying right there, which is we just assume that we give people information and either correct or incorrect and they follow it.

Right?

And we don't recognize that people have feelings, they have thoughts, they have beliefs, right?

And so, what we did during COVID-19 is we just assumed that people would follow the rules, that they would follow the science.

And people don't act that way.

And I'm gonna tell you one very important story, I think Steve, which for me is sort of the inspiration a lot for this book.

I was a very young researcher, much younger than I am now, like in my early 30s, late 20s at the CDC, working on a study around HIV, right?

And I remember sitting in this room with these very important people, and I was just young and new at that point.

And I was just so impressed.

And I remember sitting in the room and having colleagues say, "Well, you know, if we tell people, if we give them the confidence to use a condom every time, right?

They're going to use a condom every time."

And the little smirky Perry in the corner said, "Not if they had five tequila shots."

And that sounds like a joke.

But in fact, this is what this book is about.

It's like you have to understand how people think, feel, act.

The information alone is not enough.

Their feelings matter much more, how they think about the world, their social circumstances.

That's what public health has done wrong, I think in the last 40 years.

- Yeah, but see, we happen to be taping in a studio.

In this desk, I just knew I had this here right from a while back, we're taping this literally six years plus after COVID became such a horrific reality in our lives.

Just how the heck did this mask, not just this mask, any mask, how did masks become so political and polarizing versus it's just a public health issue?

Because in our family, and I'm not gonna name names, there are family members who don't even speak to each other anymore over this.

- Right.

- And family events that who if you wanted to come, we wanted you, but you had to wear a mask, "You don't tell me what to do.

I'm not gonna follow what the feds say."

How did it become so political?

- Well, because the mask is symbolic of exactly what you're talking about, which is an authoritarian way of running the government.

And I, look, and I'm not saying that this is just this administration, I think that the Biden administration also is very authoritarian and say everything's fine, right?

And so when you talk down to people, which is, I think what has happened is they're not going to listen to you.

You have to connect to them on some emotional level.

You have to understand, let me give you another story.

I was at an engagement party for my second cousin, my cousin's daughter.

I think it was like 2020 right after the vaccines came out.

You know, I got my shot, of course, others had none.

I was at a table with some relatives, distant relatives, and there was a father, a mother, and a 10-year-old child.

And the father, a Greek American man, first generation like myself said, "Well, you know, my wife and my child got the vaccine, but I didn't because, you know, that's junk."

And, you know, I could have sat there and given him all the facts, right?

The science.

But in fact, what I appealed to instead was this idea of you wanna see your son get older?

Do you wanna stay healthy?

Do you wanna see your son get married?

Do you wanna see your son have a career?

Do you wanna see your son grow up?

And appealing to these things that spoke to him in a different level about why he should be vaccinated and why he needed to take care of himself, that, ultimately, his child and his relationship with his child was much more important than any false information he had about the vaccine.

Now, I will say, he did get a vaccine the following week.

I don't know what he's done since then, but that's an example of I think public health has to talk to people and we haven't done that.

- But first of all, that is a powerful and impactful story, a real life experience.

But here's the other part of that.

If leaders in federal government, particularly let's just say RFK Jr.

who is the top ranking official in the federal government dealing with public health, if he is saying and has said, and yes, as we tape this program at the end of April, 2026, there's been some softening on the vaccine discussion.

However, we've done a lot of programming around autism awareness, and the fact that RFK Jr., and he is not alone, a whole range of folks who believe what he believes have talked about vaccines and autism.

I appreciate and respect what you're saying about the human side, that's why it's called "Humanizing Public Health."

But can we really have public health officials saying that they know that the science tells them, a study told them that there's a direct correlation between vaccines and autism?

Where's the human discussion as opposed to that's just BS.

It's not true.

- Right, so, Steve, I'm not, yeah, you're right.

And I'm not saying that the information doesn't matter and quite now we're living in this like black hole of misinformation because of RFA and, you know, the groups he's built around him.

And I do think, honestly, we'll see when we're talking in a few weeks, I think his time's up honestly.

- So you, hold on one second, end of April, he testified before Congress.

He hasn't changed, policies haven't changed, some of the rhetoric has, you don't believe he's sticking around for long?

- I don't believe he's sticking around because if we've seen how Trump's acted over the course of the last couple of years with people that he's let go, look at the new CDC person he's going to- - Just look at it right here, was Dr.

Erica Schwartz?

- Yep, very much a vaccine supporter.

That's, I think, signaling to us that he is not particularly happy with the direction that's going.

But let's get back to your question.

- Okay, go ahead.

- Your question is about information and knowledge.

- Yes, and P.S., the role of the media in all that.

But go ahead, I'm sorry, Perry.

- Correct, and information and knowledge of course matters.

You have to have the information and knowledge.

You have to know that a vaccine works, that a condom is protective.

That, you know, people get the flu every year and you should get your annual vaccine, that you know fatty foods cause obesity.

All of those information, pieces of information matter.

I'm not saying throw those away.

I'm saying what you need to do is present them in a way that's tangible and meaningful to people.

And it's very difficult right now, right?

With the talking heads in Washington that are anti-science.

But again, public health can't stop them, but what public health can do is empower itself with the best possible tools to become the talking head that people listen to and they become the talking head that people listen to if they understand human beings and their lives.

One more story.

- Sure.

- West Virginia, West Virginia, think about it, red as red can be, right?

During the COVID vaccine period at the beginning, vaccine rates were really good in West Virginia.

Why were they really good?

Because the people were getting the vaccines from their local pharmacists who they trust, not some abstract person, right?

They had a pharmacist, Uncle Joe, whoever he was, Aunt Mildred, I'm using all these like very old American names, I'm sorry about that.

And they've trusted that person and they got the vaccine.

That's what I'm talking about here.

I'm talking about, yes, you need the information.

The information needs to be presented by somebody who people trust.

And public health, I think we've done ourselves a disservice is like we've removed ourselves too much from the public and now we have to find our way back into the center of the public conversation.

- The role of social media and public health, A, and B, the rest of us in so-called mainstream media, I'm not sure exactly what that means anymore.

A, social media and public health.

Positive, negative, what?

- Right now negative.

But because we haven't harnessed it, right?

I wrote an editorial recently that will be published very soon, where I call for the development of public health influencers.

And I'm like, if we can influence makeup choices and clothing choices and musical style, we can influence public health.

But what does that mean?

It means that people like me who run schools of public health have to teach their students a different set of skills, right?

How to harness those skills.

How to be able- - Such as?

You talking about communication skills?

- I'm talking about communication skills, right?

I'm talking about how we talk- - You're talking about Joe Rogan skills?

- I'm talking about talking to people like, go back to 2000 second Bush election.

- Sure.

- This is who I wanna have a beer with.

Remember that, when people were saying that?

I want people to be able to talk to public health people as somebody they wanna have a beer with.

- As opposed to?

- As opposed to intellectual scientists.

- I'm sorry, do you remember Al Gore?

The argument was some people are like, "What are Perry and Steve talking about?"

Al Gore was someone who would tell you, he would tell you what he knew and that he was the smartest person and he invented the internet.

President Bush was someone you wanna have a beer with.

You're saying public health leaders need to be more accessible and engaging?

- 100% is exactly what I'm saying.

And I think about, you know, my colleagues who do this work really well, who have immersed themselves in the community, so, you know, one of my favorite colleagues, you know, at the height of the AIDS epidemic, you know, what did he do?

He didn't just sit in his office as a doctor.

He actually went to places where people weren't tested then.

Right?

Again, this is about meeting people.

It's meeting people where they are.

So there's a humbleness that I think that higher education has lost that it needs to reacquire.

There is an understanding of humanity and how people think and act and behave.

And the biggest argument I make in the book, Steve, that runs throughout everything I've been talking about is let's let go of this idea that people are rational operators making good decisions about their health because they're not, because, honestly, the five tequila shots taste good as does the cigarette to some people.

And just telling people don't smoke, it's gonna cause lung cancer, for you is not enough, right?

Understand why it is that are there and why they need these things.

- Perry, go back a little bit, because in the book you talk not just from a public health and an epidemiologic perspective and a infectious disease perspective, you talk about on a very personal level, HIV/AIDS.

How did that, I know I've asked you about this in previous interviews, but you write about it in the book extensively, that horrific health tragedy in our country and the world impacted you on a very personal level.

- It formed me, actually, it formed me.

- Talk about that.

- You know, everything, well, first of all, what I think that it gave me more than anything, and people I laugh about sometimes is it made me brave, right?

Because I'm like, poof, nothing scares me if I can live through that.

So I'll take that scar and use it to my advantage.

But how it helped me understand, you know, public health was to understand seeing my friends just dying in my arm, seeing my partner just die in my arm.

Seeing my own health at risk and trying to survive every single day of my life.

You know, and thinking about the things that I need as a human being in order to get through.

I don't need this, I need science, yes, but I need compassion, right?

And I need understanding and I need love.

And I think those lessons are the lessons that I'm trying to bring forward to public health more globally.

And we've created this discipline.

You know, public health started out over 100 years ago as a discipline that was an intersection of art and science, and psychiatry and psychology.

And we've become this isolated thing and we've become this over-intellectualized thing.

And I think that is, you know, that is the challenge for us in this next generation.

When I think about the students here in my office, just out in the hallway here, what they want is that ability to relate to other human beings in a very realistic way.

They want stories like mine.

They want to hear from teachers like me.

They want to hear from people like you.

They don't want to hear just about, they don't wanna sit in a classroom just reading research articles.

Yes, they need to do that, but they need that complimented by this other piece.

- The book is "Humanizing Public Health: How Disease Centered Approaches Have Failed Us."

In the time we have left, you talked about losing friends during HIV/AIDS epidemic.

You also talk about certain other people who've impacted you.

Who is, is it Mala?

- My friend Mala, my friend Mala Hoffman.

- Mala Hoffman.

Tell everyone who Mala is, 'cause did she write the preface for the book?

The foreword?

- Yes, she did.

So Mala is one of my oldest friends, - She's like a theater buddy, right?

So when I went to the theater, which I don't always love, but I go every now and again.

I wanna see this Rose Byrne show that's out now with Kelly O'Hara and the first person I go to is her.

So Mala and I met each other in 1988 when I was an elementary school teacher at the Hunters College campus schools and she was a teacher.

And she has been there through every high and low in my life.

She has taken this journey with me.

And in fact, when I signed her book last weekend when I saw her, I said, "What a journey we've had."

And, you know, she's been critical in my thinking about myself as a person, my thinking of my science, but also myself as a human being and how I present myself.

And she's a writer, and she's my friend, and she's an intellectual.

And we debate and discuss, and we have like, lives that are radically different.

I'm this, you know, gay man who's in the New York, New Jersey metropolitan area living this very, very exciting, quote, unquote, I guess, "life."

My friend Mala lives up in New Paltz, you know, in her big house where she raised her two kids.

And, you know, I love her to death.

But our lives are incredibly different, yet incredibly the same.

You know why they're the same?

Which gives me back to the book 'cause we share a value system.

We share a value system about what matters and how we speak to people, how we care for people.

She writes also, and she writes very similar things about death and dying with her daughter.

Her daughter is, we speak almost regularly about her daughter who's living with long COVID, her 32-year-old daughter who is immobilized some days 'cause of long COVID.

Do we have any conversation about this, Steve, anymore?

This long COVID thing?

I don't hear it on the news at all.

- Because, by the way, your brother also, yeah.

Explain to folks why, and we in the media are guilty of this as well.

It's like next, next topic.

Why are we doing a disservice, not just in the media, but as a society, as people?

Oh yeah, we don't wanna talk about that COVID thing anymore, but while people are still suffering and tell everyone if you could, 'cause you wrote about it in the book about your brother as well, COVID, please, Perry.

- Because we always want the new exciting story, right?

You know, it's like, you know, COVID isn't an exciting story and COVID is kind of a bummer, right, 'cause we have to wear like masks and vaccines and stuff like that, right?

So we do a disservice because we don't even talk about HIV and how many new infections do we have a year, Steve, in the United States?

35,000?

35,000 new infections every year.

No one's saying anything.

How many people die of the flu this year?

30,000?

Are we talking about it in the news?

Nope, we just think no one's dying from the flu.

100,000 dying of COVID, I think.

So, my brother is in a prime example of, and I dedicated the book to my brother.

He's my younger brother who just turned 60, who I said to him recently when I was at his house, we had a little party for him, said, "I didn't think we needed you when you came around, but God, I need you so badly right now," am I right?

I was three-years-old when he was born.

He has progressive multiple sclerosis that he was diagnosed with 15 years ago.

He is pretty mobilized.

And during COVID, things got worse for him because he had like a, you know, he had a stroke in his eye that was affected by COVID.

And so, here's this individual that somehow manages every single day to live with humanity, right?

And lived his life to the fullest, despite all these circumstances.

To me, he's a hero.

You know who else I cite in the book?

Hippocrates.

Hippocrates is the father of western medicine from the island that my parents are from in Greece, Kos, Greece.

A shout out to the Greeks here for me, who said, "It's not the gods that create the problem, it's the foolishness of men."

And whether that foolishness is not being vaccinated, or whether the foolishness is RFK, or whether the foolishness is public health not doing its job correctly, it's all foolishness.

And this is a call to action this book to say, "It is now intolerable.

And this is the breaking point, and things have to radically change."

- Got a minute left.

You optimistic?

- I'm always optimistic, Steve.

I've been living with this HIV thing since 1981.

How can I not be optimistic?

You know, I'm here 63-years-old, I've seen devastation around me, right?

So to me, it's like, if I can live through that and see what's happened in the world and still be here at 63 saying, "My God, every day is a blessing for me.

Every day is a blessing for everybody.

Every day is a blessing for my brother."

I remain optimistic because there's also another thing that I really believe, and that is that truly in their heart, human beings are good, right?

And I think of my mother.

- Do you believe that, Perry?

You believe that?

- I do, I do, I do, I do, I do.

I 100% believe that.

And it's not because of religious doctrine, I just believe that people tend to want to be good and to want to love each other.

They don't always evidence it, and they can be very selfish.

But if you can scratch the surface, those people who are resistant, who are storming into the Congress, who are refusing to get vaccinated, deep down inside them, these are good human beings that had some flawed life experiences that got them there.

And we have to understand them, and we have to understand why they got there.

And try to show them the compassion they deserve and not disregard them.

- The public health leaders of the future that you and your colleagues at the Rutgers School of Public Health and other schools of public health and medical schools across this country are training.

This is a loaded question to end on, but the ability to be, Dr.

Daniel Goldman calls it emotional intelligence.

How important is it that the part of emotional intelligence that deals with compassion, humanity, and empathy is a massive part of being a healthcare leader?

- The number one thing.

- That's number one.

- It's number one, - Beyond all the science, clinical, technical- - Easy.

- Research.

- We have AI.

We have AI, Steve, we can find information when we need it.

I need somebody to be a human being first and foremost.

And let me tell you, this generation, Generation Z that I'm seeing here in these hallways has a compassionate understanding and a love that I think our generation doesn't have and people older than us certainly do not have.

- Our good friend, Dr.

Perry Halkitis, the author of a powerful book, "Humanizing Public Health: How Disease Centered Approaches Have Failed Us."

Perry, my friend, an important book, a must read, and I cannot thank you enough for being with us.

Thank you.

All the best, Perry.

- An honor to be here.

Thank you, Steve.

- It's an honor to interview people like that, leaders like that.

I'm Steve Adubato, we'll see you next time.

- [Narrator] Think Tank with Steve Adubato is a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Funding has been provided by EJI, Excellence in Medicine Awards.

A New Jersey health foundation program.

RWJBarnabas Health.

Learn More at RWJBH.org.

The Turrell Fund, a foundation serving children.

The Burke Foundation The Center for Autism Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

NJ Transit.

The North Ward Center.

And by New Jersey Sharing Network.

Promotional support provided by The Chamber of Commerce Southern New Jersey.

And by NJBIZ.

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