Announcer: The views and opinions expressed in to the point are those of the hosted, the program and its guests.

They do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of WGTE Public Media.

Doni: The Russian-Ukrainian conflict has developed into the bloodiest war in Europe since World War Two.

Its impact on the lives of men, women and children in the Ukraine has been horrific.

Data released by the United Nations shows more than 7000 civilian lives lost, with another 11,000 being seriously injured.

There have been more than 65,000 reported war crimes cases.

How are the citizens of the Ukraine navigating the challenges of this aggression?

Well, here to help us with this very important conversation is Dr. Jaroslav Souza Pan Ski.

This is to the point you should connect with us on our social media pages.

And if you'd like, you could email me at doni _miller@wgte.org for this episode and other additional extras.

Please go to wgte.org/to the point.

Thank you so much for joining us today.

We're going to be talking about an incredibly difficult subject, but one that's important to bring to everybody's attention and that's the war in the Ukraine.

Many of us in America don't understand exactly what's going on and why we should care about it.

This young man with me today will answer all of our questions.

I'd like to read his his credentials to you.

I think they will explain to you exactly why he's here.

He has a doctor of science in political science and administration.

He also has a Ph.D. in that same discipline of study, has a juris doctorate of law, and he has a master's degree of law as well.

And also M.A.

in Political Science is very widely published on this and many other issues, and he is joining us today in the United States from Poland.

Welcome.

Very, very welcome.

I'm so happy to have you here.

Jaroslaw: Thank you for having me here.

It's a pleasure.

Doni: Let's give people just a little bit of background on the war in Ukraine.

Can you, from your perspective, tell us why Russia began this war?

Jaroslaw: Well, the first question is when they began this war and it is now like 2022, it's 2014, we have annexation of Crimea.

And they were trying to push forward ever since they tried to grab eastern lands of Ukraine, but they were stopped by Ukrainian armed forces and they were preparing to launch it another attack.

And that happened just a year ago.

So since what do you mean, Putin has claimed power in Russia.

He was obsessed with this idea to reclaim what he called the sphere of influence, which covers roughly the same area as former USSR, maybe even as former Warsaw Pact area.

That means the former Eastern Bloc.

And he's trying gradually to reclaim the sphere of influence.

He he attacked Georgia years ago.

Then grabbed Crimea, and now he thought that he would be able to overwhelm Ukraine within few days.

But fortunately, he was stopped.

And now that this alliance of goodwill is helping Ukraine to stop Russian aggression and even to push the Russians out of the Ukraine.

Doni: But it doesn't sound as though Russia is going to stop their aggression.

Jaroslaw: Yes, because, well, they just crossed the Rubicon River, just like Caesar.

And after making this very important step, they cannot go back.

It's a point of no return for Russian citizens.

It is just it's just insane that they can lose a war with small, poor Ukraine.

Right.

And they are like the global superpower, the biggest, the second biggest army in the world, one of the biggest economy economies in the world.

So, yeah, so that's just unimaginable for ordinary Russians and Russians who are just like treated for many years with these propaganda ideas that Russia can oppose European Union, Russia can compete on global markets, and Russia will be once again something like the USSR was a global superpower.

And that can just deal the cards on the table.

Doni: And true.

So why why is this war important for Americans to care about?

Jaroslaw: Well, I believe you have at least two reasons.

First of all, it is an attempt to crush the liberal order of the world.

It is.

It was probably Putin's plan to attack Ukraine, to test NATO's try to to to check whether NATO is a true alliance or maybe it is just something that was formed years ago and now it means nothing.

Nothing.

Yep.

So.

So he lost that bet.

And and we are stronger than ever and we are willing to help Ukraine supporting them with tanks, airplanes.

Right now Poland is supporting fighters, providing fighters for Ukraine.

Slovakia is doing the same.

Maybe US will also provide some fighters for Ukraine.

So we are helping them a lot.

And Putin lost that bet and that was his first mistake to to to test us.

Doni: But Ukraine is not a member of NATO as we speak.

Is that correct?

Jaroslaw: Yes, of course.

But Putin thought that that will be the first step toward softening the Western alliance, because some states like Poland and United Kingdom said that, well, we have to stop Putin and Russians before they will be on the borders of our native pact.

And some countries, like Germany said, well, it's not our problem.

Ukraine is not European member state, it's not NATO member state.

It's some little bit corrupted country in the Eastern Europe.

So it has to deal with Russia by itself.

And then they were dealing with Russia with this gas pipeline on the Baltic Sea bases, and they were trying to make some very fruitful contracts with Russians to make sure that Germany will be a hub for natural resources that will be flowing from Russia direct and to to German harbors to to to German shores.

So we were not thinking the same about Ukraine and Russia, not like Western coalition.

But when Putin launched that attack, everything changed, world changed everything.

Doni: Everything changed.

So in the United States, there is some pushback about the continued support for the Ukraine, especially as we see China becoming publicly friendlier with with Putin.

So the concern is that we are inching closer to unfriendly or relationships with China.

Would you agree?

Well.

Jaroslaw: This train, I think, is the second reason you should support Ukraine, because you have to eliminate Russia first to deal with Russia.

China alone right now is the chance for United States to forget about Russia for a decade, maybe two decades, and just deal with with China.

If Russia will be weakened enough, it won't be able to help China even by providing some natural resources, because if Russia will lose the war or will not gain enough in that war, there is a great chance that there will be some kind of revolution against Putin inside Russia.

Doni: Maybe you think so?

Jaroslaw: Maybe no one better will claim power.

But still, for some time there will be a lot of mess.

So it won't be stable country.

It won't be a country that could affect global affairs.

So for that brief period of time, US will have a free hand and can deal with China.

So that's why you should support Ukraine.

Doni: So you really think from your perspective that Putin is losing support for this aggression in Russia?

Jaroslaw: Well, he's definitely losing support, especially among oligarchs and among his closest advisors, because he's he has to blame someone for what's going on.

So he's blaming he's he's Katrina.

Doni: Is certainly not going the way he wants it to go.

No, no, no.

Jaroslaw: No.

Well, we had those rumors that he he's hiding out in some kind of bunker in Siberia.

We have those photos of him visiting from Mariupol and others and those people who pretend to be Putin, they do not resemble Putin like perfectly so there's a lot of rumor that maybe he's just trying to to use some kind of decoy and to not to go to the front by himself.

Truly, there are a lot of different rumors that suggest that Putin has to fear about his future.

And that's that's to be honest, a good sign for the Western.

Doni: Because I agree.

We have just a minute left here, but I do want to ask you this.

There has also been a lot of discussion about the status of his mental health.

Do you have any opinion?

Jaroslaw: Well, I'm a doctor but not a doctor of medicine, so I cannot comment on that.

Doni: All right.

Okay.

We're going to go away for just a second.

And when we come back, I'd like to talk about the impact of all of this on the Ukrainian people and how Poland is responding to them.

Okay.

Stay with me.

We'll be right back.

Jaden: I'm Jaden Jefferson and this week we are on point with the war in Ukraine.

Do you believe that the U.S. should be more involved in the war in Ukraine?

Woman: No.

We feel that they should be more involved in things in the United States.

We feel that people in ten or in Mississippi and other people that have had other natural disasters in the United States.

Jaden: Do I think we should go in there?

Man: Yes, I think we should.

I think Ukrainian people have the right to be free.

They were free before.

What what gives Russia the right to go in there just because they want oil?

We backed Afghanistan when Russia went in there.

So, no, I don't think it's right.

And if the United States is going to stand up and play at the big boys table, like they say they are, then I think they need to stand up, put their big boy pants on and get it done.

Jaden: Should the U.S. be more involved in the war in Ukraine?

Man: Well, of course, I want the war to end.

And but what's happening there is so concerning because the Russians are attacking infrastructure, hospitals, schools, power plants, and they're killing civilians.

They're taking innocent children and taking them to Russia to indoctrinate them.

Jaden: Do you feel like the U.S. should be more involved in the war in Ukraine?

Woman: Yes, I do.

Absolutely.

I think it would benefit all of us.

Jaden: And that is the story here from Wildwood, Metropark.

I'm Jaden Jefferson and you're watching To The Point.

Doni: Connect with us on our social media pages.

Again, you can email me at doni _miller@wgte.org for this episode and other additional extras.

Please go to wgte.org/To the point.

Welcome back.

We are talking to Dr. JAROSLOVSKY, as you can see.

Before we go any further, I really want to thank Laura Magath for her help in getting you here today.

I certainly couldn't have done this without her.

So thank you, Laura.

One of the things that we are really concerned about in this country, when we talk about the war, we talk about the people there are I read and the numbers are all over the map, but I read that more than 5 million refugees have crossed into Poland since the war began and that you all are doing your welcoming them.

You are making them feel as though your country is is their home.

Can you talk to me a bit about what life is like as a refugee crossing into Poland?

Jaroslaw: Well, I can try because I'm not a refugee, but I. I knew some refugees I organized help for for them from the poles that were organized by our main polling agency.

More than a half Poles have someone at home who is helping as a volunteer with to those Ukrainian refugees.

So most of us are helping and well, the life of refugees is of course difficult, but we are trying to make them feel at home.

And what's probably the most important, we are opening up our welfare state for them.

So all the refugees that entered Poland after the beginning of the war, they are like semi citizens in Poland right now.

We have a special act on Ukrainian refugees and we are providing them the rights to stay in Poland right to work in Poland, right to study and get education for free in Poland, just as they would have been a Polish citizens.

They can also apply for all social benefits.

So child benefit, some other special Ukrainian one time benefit that will help them to accommodate.

In Poland they can use our healthcare system for free as they were poles, so the repository so so they are like like semi citizens right now.

They cannot vote of course.

And we will have elections this autumn, but they can do all those things that they will would have done at home.

In fact, that Ukrainian parliament in gratitude passed a similar law in Ukraine that's concerning Polish citizens.

So Poles can also work, do business study in Ukraine as let's say, semi citizens.

So so we have this kind of very specific like free travel area between Poland and Ukraine.

It's not based on any kind of international treaty is based just on acts that were passed concurrently in both countries.

Well, it is probably the the closest to trans-Tasman travel arrangement between New Zealand and Australia.

Doni: I was really surprised to read that there were still so many Ukrainians remaining in the in the Ukraine, especially with the attacks on hospitals, the intentional attacks on hospitals, on on schools, on churches, all of these things being in violation of the international humanitarian law is is there really any protection?

Are those kinds of laws, like the international humanitarian laws, are those really providing any kind of protection right now?

Jaroslaw: What to be honest, and the anti-missile programs provides protection for Ukraine.

So high murders and other other entry equipment is providing help.

This kind of legal acts, they will be useful after the war to to chase, prosecute and trial all those war criminals that were well doing all those qualities in Ukraine.

We just can try to provide under those international treaties some kind of support for Ukraine.

But but well, and the Ukrainian military's is trying to to support civilians Defense civilians and try to make those Russian attacks.

Well, not so, so difficult for them.

Doni: Yeah, It appears as though with at least the United Nations is saying that though there have been 65,000 war crimes reported, they expect that the number is significantly higher than that and that the types of war crimes are particularly heinous.

Are you hearing that in in your country as well?

Jaroslaw: Yes.

And probably the threat of those war crimes were one of the reasons that we opened up the border.

We opened up the border on the day one when there were outbreaks.

So so with the beginning of the war, the border between Ukraine and Poland disappeared.

All those people can just crossed it without any formal paperwork to be done.

They could have done those paperwork when they were safe in Poland after a week or two.

And well, the history of eastern part of Europe is a history of wars and war crimes and the migrant parents, they remember war crimes that were done by Soviet soldiers when they entered Poland in 1948.

They remember those all those atrocities.

So when we as Poles heard that the Russians are invading Ukraine, we we we for that.

Well, a lot of bad things might happen.

So we should provide, at least for civilians.

Doni: That you have had a little bit of criticism around perhaps treating Ukrainian refugees differently than other refugees that are trying to come into Poland.

How would you respond to people who say Ukrainians are being given special treatment in this process?

Jaroslaw: It was not a little bit of a lot of criticism.

Police were accused to be racist and nationalists, but, well, we have a special bond with peoples of Eastern Europe For more than 300 years.

We shared a common state polish with them, commonwealth.

So we we we have a lot of history that we share.

We have a lot of traditions that we share.

We are like the nation so badly, nations so well, there was this initial idea that we have to be we have to use this great movement of solidarity that we launched in the eighties and now spreading in Ukraine.

We have to help them just because they are just like us, our brothers on the other side of the border.

And for those others that we are denying.

Entrance to Poland.

Well, Europe is under a hybrid attack which is launched by Russia years ago.

Russian government cooperating with the Aleutian government is organizing those transports of people.

They are basically doing trafficking people from Middle East to the EU countries, and they're organizing busses, trains, cars to get people to the border and push them to Poland.

And that's just yet another Internet crime.

They cannot do that.

Doni: But certainly all certainly everybody who's trying to get into Russia I'm sorry, get into Poland are not of the earth that you just described.

Jaroslaw: Not all.

But it was not only case of Poland, but also the Baltic states.

Now, between Poland and various Lithuania and Belarus and Russia and Estonia and other countries who are building fences just to make sure that no one will like illegally enter Poland.

They can seek refuge in Europe, like united Europe, and that's perfectly fine.

We can provide assistance, we can provide the lawyers, do the paperwork.

But well, you have to follow the rules if you are not affected by the war, If you are not a war refugee, we cannot do any kind of exemptions for you.

Doni: So is it safe to say that someone being Muslim or someone being Arab or someone being black would not be enough reason to keep them out?

Jaroslaw: And we are not keeping them out because a lot of Muslims, black people, they were studying and staying in Ukraine and all those people were treated as Ukrainians when they were fleeing those horrors of war.

So they entered Poland, they were connected with the embassies and they were guaranteed a safe passage to Polish towns, Polish cities, and then back home and to home countries.

So it was not the case of necessity race, but we usually do not use this category in Europe to be honest.

But ethnicity or citizenship doesn't matter.

It matters.

What are you fleeing if you are fleeing war, we have to help you and we have to help you fast.

But if you are trying to migrate for some economical reasons, well, it is other things.

Doni: Yeah.

So in the time we have left, I'm going to ask you to address this this pretty difficult question.

Is there a way to fix this?

Jaroslaw: You mean the war or war?

Well, everything is in the hands of Ukrainians.

They have to decide when the war will end.

We just can support them.

If they say enough is enough and we cannot fight anymore, we have to.

Well, take it.

And that's all.

We just have to support them.

As long as they are eager to fight for themselves.

We cannot do more, but we cannot do less.

We should stay by Ukrainians well till till they decide that it's a good.

We are at a good point to start negotiations.

Doni: Yeah.

I just wonder how many more people your country can absorb and how much more assistance your country can provide.

The Ukraine is a heavily populated country.

Jaroslaw: Well, to be honest, not really anymore, because just before the war, the official census said that it was like 47 million people.

But the estimation by then, by as Alinsky said, that it is only 37 million people and then 6 to 7 million people fled.

Yeah, some people died.

Some people were kidnaped by Russians, especially children, like hundreds of thousands of children were kidnaped by by Russians.

So there is roughly about 50 million people in Ukraine right now and more than 40 million in Poland, counting those refugees and migrants from Ukraine and pre-war migrants.

So so we can absorb a lot because we we have we do not have unemployment.

We need people to work in Poland.

So we are granting them all those people.

Doni: You dont have unemployment?

Jaroslaw: It's like 3%.

Maybe.

So we need them to work in Poland.

But that's that that's the thing that will be tricky after the war because like national Polish interest is to make them stay.

Doni: Yeah.

Jaroslaw: And national Ukrainian interest is to make them back home, because most of them are young people with children.

Right now in Poland, more than a half million young Ukrainian pupils are standing in Polish schools and Polish language, and they will speak Polish as native speakers in a year or two.

So that's a problem for Ukraine.

Doni: I want to thank you for being with us today.

This has been extremely educational, very enlightening, and I hope that we get to talk again when you come back.

Jaroslaw: Thank you very much.

Doni: You are very welcome.

And thank you for joining us.

On to the Point.

We will see you next week.

Have an incredible day.

The views and opinions expressed in to the point are those of the host of the program and its guests.

They do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of WGTE public media.

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