♪ ♪ HOW DOES OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM RELATE TO OUR CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM?

EXPLORING THESE QUESTIONS END OUR STUDIO IS DR.

DAVID, AN EXPERT IN LAW, JUSTICE, CRIMINOLOGY AND AFRICAN-AMERICAN STUDIES.

JOIN US HERE ON NEWSMAKERS.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> HELLO.

HERE IN THE TOAD YO TODAY IS DAVID, PROFESSOR IN CRIMINOLOGY, LAW, CRUST JUSTICE AT THE UNIVERSITY ILLINOIS IN CHICAGO STUDIES THE INFLUENCE OF RACE, URBAN EDUCATION, COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT AND HOUSING AND THE AUTHOR OF BORN OUT OF STRUGGLE CRITICAL RACE THEORY, SCHOOL CREATION AND THE POLITICS OF INTERRUPTION.

AS WELL AS NUMBER OF ARTICLES AND OTHERS.

DAVID, GREAT TO HAVE YOU HERE.

THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>> THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME ARE HERE, RIGHTING IF A THE THIRD TIME IN GRAND RAPIDS.

>> LOVELY.

WELL, WELCOME ONCE AGAIN.

I WOULD LIKE TO START OFF WHILE YOU STUDY EDUCATION AND YOU STUDIED URBAN ENVIRONMENTS ONE OF THE MAIN DETERMINE NENS OF HEALTH AND ECONOMIC SUCCESS OR OPPORTUNITY IS ZIP CODE.

WHAT HAVE YOU DISCOVERED IN YOUR RESEARCH AROUND ZIP CODE.

>> SO WHEN WE THINK ABOUT ZIP COCCODE, A COUPLE OF THINGS THAT COME INTO PLAY.

I THINK WHAT IS IMPORTANT THAT IS ZIP CODE, ACTUALLY SOMETHING THAT ROW SEEDS ZIP CODE.

THAT IS USUALLY SOME TYPE OF RESTRICTIVE LAW THAT DETERMINES WHO CAN LIVE WHERE SO I AM FROM CHICAGO.

RESTRICTED COVENANT LAW ON THE BOOKS UNTIL 1946.

>> TALKING ABOUT RED LINING.

>> YES.

>> OK.

SO CERTAIN PEOPLE COULD ONLY BUY HOMES IN PARTICULAR SPACES SO NOW, EVEN WHERE THEY ARE NOT LAWS ON THE BOOKS, THERE WERE PRACTICES BY REAL ESTATE AGENTS THAT ONLY HAD FOLKS PARTICULARLY PEOPLE OF COLOR, AND IN THIS CASE, LAW OF THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN POPULATIONS AND LATINO POP LAGSES WHO COULD PURCHASE HOMES IN AREAS SO NOW WHEN THAT GROUP OF PEOPLE COULD ON PURCHASE IN THOSE AREAS THEN THE ZIP CODES WERE ACTUALLY PLACED OVER THOSE SPACES WHERE PEOPLE COULD ONLY BUY HOMES, SO THAT, THINK, WHEN PEOPLE TALK ABOUT GLIP CODES WE OFTEN MISS THAT RELATIONSHIP TO SOME TYPE OF RESTRICTIVE COVENANT.

>> SO WHEN YOU LOOK AT MAPS TODAY IN URBAN SPACES WHICH IS YOUR AREA OF EXPERTISE OR LEARN FROM.

HOW DO THOSE LINE UP TODAY IN THE NEIGHBORHOODS THAT ARE SEGREGATED BY RACE TO THOSE RED LINING DISTRICTS?

ARE THEY THE SAME?

ARE THEY MOVED?

>> THEY ARE PRETTY MUCH THE SAME.

SOME HAVE SHIFTED BUT THEY HAVE STAYED.

THEY HAVE STAYED THE SAME IN MOST LARGE CITIES OVER THE LAST 50 YEARS.

NOW SO CALF VA ATE TO THAT BECAUSE THE POUREST DISTRICTS HAVE STAYED THE SAME.

SO NOW IN SOME CITIES IN TERMS OF CALF VATE, YOU HAVE DISTRICTS THAT WERE HIS TOCLY POUR THAT NOW GENTRIFIED.

EXACTLY.

IN CHICAGO, IT IS LOGAN QAIR, BUCKTOWN, REUBEN PARK, WESTTOWN.

THESE ARE ALL SPACES THAT HAVE BEEN GENTRY FYKED THAT WERE FORMERLY LOW INCOME WORKING CLASS COMMUNITIES SO THOSE SPACES HAVE SHIFTED BUT YOU ALSO HAVE SPACES THAT HISTORICALLY BEEN POUR THAT HAVE STAYED HISTORICALLY POUR SO THERE IS SHIFTS AND THERE IS ALSO THIS HISTORIC STAGNATION IN THOSE IN SOME COMMUNITIES.

>> SO I GUESS, I WILL GIVE YOU OPTION OF WHERE DO YOU WANT TO GO INDO YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE AREAS THAT ARE TASKLY CHANGE OR SOME OF THE ONES THAT STAYED THE SAME?

>> I THINK, IT IS IMPORTANT TO TALK ABOUT THOSE AREAS THAT HAVE ACTIVELY CHANGED.

SO I AM THINKING OF HOW THINGS ARE CHANGING HERE NOW.

TO MAKE OUR RELATIONSHIP TO CHICAGO SO ONE OF THE FAVORITE AREAS AROUND 18th STREET WHERE THERE IS A LOT OF LATINO ARTISTS AND VERY VIBRANT COMMUNITY HERE WE HAVE THE GRANDVILLE CORRIDOR WHICH LEADS RIGHT INTO GRAND RAPIDS WHICH HAS VERY LARGE LATINO COMMUNITY, BOTH ARE SEEING IN DIFFERENT SCALES, OBVIOUSLY, AND BUT THEY ARE SEEING LARGE GROUPS OF LET'S SAY NONTRADITIONAL RESIDENCE OR NON-HISPANIC, USUALLY MORE AFFLUENT, COMING IN OR INVESTING OR BIG DEVELOPMENT GROUPS COMING END AND BIG UP PROPERTIES.

SO SPECIFICALLY AROUND THE CHILDREN WHOSE EDUCATION YOU STUDY HOW DOES THE IMPACT SAY A FAMILY THAT HAS LYNNED THERE TWO OR THREE GENERATIONS?

>> WELL, I THINK IT BECOMES IMPORTANT BECAUSE HERE, JUST LIKE GRAND RAPIDS SCHOOL THAT YOU MENTIONED IN 16th STREET AND COMMUNITY CALLED PILSEN AND IN CHICAGO, WHAT HAPPENED IS NOW THE CONDITIONS BECOME SO THAT LONG TERM RESIDENTS CANNOT STAY.

USUALLY BECAUSE OF RISING HOUSING COSTS CAN SO LONG-TERM OWNERS IT RISES AND INCREASES THE PROPERTY TAXES FOR LONG-TERM WINTERS THAT INCREASES THE RENT AND NOW, AS THOSE NEW RESIDENTS COME IN, WHO ARE MORE AFFLUENT THAN WHITE.

NOW YOU SEE SOMETHING THAT HAPPENS SO NOW, NOW AS THOSE COMMUNITIES, THOSE LONG TERM RESIDENTS CAN NO LONGER STAY AND HAVE BEEN MOVED NOW.

SOMETIMES YOU SEE THE SCHOOL ACTUALLY DEPOPULATE.

SO SOMETIMES THE SCHOOL DEPOPULATES IN OTHER INSTANCES THE SCHOOL WE POPULATE WITH THE CHILDREN OF THOSE NEW OF A PLU ENT RESIDENTS SO IT COULD HAPPEN BOTH WAYS AND SEEN IT HAPPEN BOTH WAYS WHERE THERE IS DEPOPULATION OF SCHOOLS AND HAVE SIGN THE IN WAYS WHERE THE SCHOOL HAS BEEN POPULATED SO IN CHICAGO, THERE IS A SCHOOL CALLED WALSH THAT IS A NEWER SCHOOL AND IT IS RIGHT ON THE EM OF PILSEN, AND WHEN THAT PUSH CAME THROUGH, A LOT OF FAMILIES HAD TO MOVE AWAY.

AND ONE TIME, THE NEIGHBORHOOD SCHOOL, MEANING THAT THERE IS PARTICULAR SET AND THE ONLY REQUIREMENT TO ATTEND IS THAT YOU LIB IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD BOUNDARIES WITH WALSH BECAUSE THOSE FAMILIES HAD TO MOVE AWAY, AND AT ONE TIME, 4% OF WALSH'S STUDENTS WERE NOT IN THE COMMUNITY OR THEY WERE FORMER RESIDENTS WHO WERE ALLOWED RIGHT OF RETURN TO THAT SCHOOL.

SO THIS IS, THAT KIND OF DEEP, THAT KIND OF DEPOPULATION IS VERY SIGNIFICANT IN SPACES AND I WOULD ARGUE MAYBE IN THE SMALLER SCALE YOU MIGHT SEE THIS HAPPEN HERE ON THE GRAND RAPIDS CORE SCORE.

CORRIDOR.

>> THAT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO WATCH AS WE'RE VERY MUCH ON THE BEGINNING OF THAT WAVE.

WHAT HAPPENS TO THESE CHILDREN AS THEY ARE GETTING BUSSED AROUND FROM NEIGHBORHOOD-TO-NEIGHBORHOOD?

WHEN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT REALLY IS THE PROCESS OF GENTRIFICATION LEADING TO DISPLACEMENT.

SO WHAT HAPPENS TO A CHILD THAT HAS ROOTS IN PILSEN OR HERE, LET'S SAY IN GRANDVILLE, AVENUE CORRIDOR.

THEY HAVE TO MOVE AWAY.

NOW THEY ARE BEING BUS MOOD THE OLD SCHOOL.

HOW DOES THAT AFFECT THE EDUCATION?

SO IT DEPENDS LARGELY ON THE LENGTH OF THE TRIP.

SO IF A YOUNG PERSON IS ALLOWED TO STAY IN THAT SCHOOL, THERE IS AGREER CHANCE FOR THEIR EDUCATIONAL OUTCOMES TO STAY THE SAME AND IMPROVE.

THE ISSUE BECOMES THEY ARE NO LONGER TO ATTEND THE SCHOOL AND THAT BECOMES IMPORTANT.

IF A YOUN PERSON OR FAMILY HAS TO MOVE AWAY.

THEY CAN NO LONGER ACCESS THEIR FORMER SCHOOL, THE NEW SCHOOL IS WHERE ISSUES AND CONCERNS POP-UP.

SO WHAT WE SEE IN EDUCATION AND PEOPLE REFER TO IT OFTEN AS MOBILITY RATE, AND THAT JUST MEANS THE NUMBER OF TIMES A YOUNG PERSON HAS TRANSFERRED SCHOOLS AND EITHER AT THE IN END OF THE SCHOOL YEAR OR IN BETWEEN SCHOOL YEARS SO SOMETIMES BECAUSE OF PARTICULAR SITUATIONS THE YOUNG PERSON MAY HAVE TO TRANSFER WITHIN THE SCHOOL YEAR.

AND WE KNOW THAT THE EDUCATIONAL OUTCOMES OF THOSE YOUNG PEOPLE ACTUALLY DECREASE.

A HIGH MOKE RATE THEN THE OUTCOMES DECREASE.

IF THEY ARE ALLOWED TO STAY IN THOSE SCHOOLS THEY HAVE BEEN LONG TERM STUDENTS IN.

THEIR WROUGHT COMS ARE BETTERMENT JUST A LARGER RELEASE IN CHICAGO ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR MOBILITY RATES BECAUSE IN 2013 CHICAGO CLOSED 49 SCHOOLS IN ONE SUMMER.

WHAT SCHOOL THEY COULD ATTEND AND WHAT WE SAW BECAUSE OF THAT MOBILITY RATE EDUCATIONAL OUTCOMES OF THE YOUNG PEOPLE WHO HAD TO SWITCH SCHOOLS ACTUALLY DECREASED.

>> NOW, JUST TO BE CLEAR, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT PUBLIC SCHOOLS?

>> YES, YES.

YES.

SO THE OTHER ASPECT OR ONE OF THE OTHER ASPECTS OF YOUR SCHOLARSHIP HAS TO DO WITH CRIMINOLOGY AND LAW.

SO LET'S START TO TIE THESE TOGETHER.

THESE CHILDREN WHO SEN UP WITH LESSER OPPORTUNITIES AND HOW DO THEY INTERACT OR WHAT POINT DO THEY COME IN CONTACT WITH OUR GIST IS FUME WELL, THERE IS IMPORTANT PIECE WHERE WE I AM BROADER EDUCATION DISCOURSE AND THEY OFTEN TALK ABOUT THE THRESHOLD YEARS AND THE THRESHOLD YEARS ARE THE YEARS WHERE YOUNG FOLKS WILL MAKE DECISION TO EITHER STAY IN SCHOOL, OR DO SOMETHING ELSE.

DROPOUT ISN'T NECESSARILY ACCURATE TERM BECAUSE THERE ARE SOME SITUATIONS WHERE YOUNG PEOPLE ARE PUSHED OUT OF SCHOOL SO IT IS IS IMPORTANT TO MAKE THAT DISTINCTION.

WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS THAT IN CERTAIN COMMUNITIES WE OFTEN HEAR WHAT IS REFERENCED AS THE SCHOOL TO PRISON PIPELINE.

AND I WOULD ARGUE THAT IS A LITTLE BIT MORE STARK THAN.

AND INSTEAD OF SCHOOL.

BUT INSTEAD OF SCHOOLS BEING PLACES THAT WOULD PREPARING A YOUNG PERSON FOR INCARCERATION, YOU HAVE MORE PARALLELS BETWEEN SCHOOLS AND PRISONS.

SO NOT NECESSARILY A PLACE, FLIES PREPARE YOU ANOTHER PRISON BUT IN SOME INSTANCES, THEY ARE ONE IN THE SAME IN TERMS OF HOW THEY OPERATE.

INSTEAD OF A SCHOOL TO PRISON PIPELINE IN SOME INSTANCES TALKING ABOUT A SCHOOL AND PRISON THEY ARE REIN MOOING YOU HE THEY ARE THE SAME THING.

AND AS AN EXAMPLE I WILL USE THIS.

IF YOU TAUGHT IN STATESVILLE CORRECTIONAL CENTER WHICH IS PRISON FOR A LONG TERM SENTENCES AND IN ILLINOIS.

AND WHEN YOU WALK IN THE PRISON, THERE ARE ALL THE RULE ON THOSE WALL FLOOR HAVE YOU AND WHAT HE IS THE MOST STARK THIS IS YELLOW LINE THAT GUESS ON THE MIDDLE OF THE FLOOR AND SAYS, PLEASE STEP TO THE RIGHT.

AND WHEN YOU STEP TO THE RIGHT THEY TALK ABOUT YOU EVERYTHING IS ORIENTED TO THE RIGHT SO IF THERE IS TRAFFIC COMING TOWARD YOU YOU CAN ALLOW IT TO PASS.

WHAT IS ACTUALLY FOR IS IF THERE IS SOME INSTANCE WHERE PEOPLE HAVE TO BE DETAINED OR DEALT WITH SOME AMOUNT OF PHYSICAL FORCE THERE IS ENOUGH ROOM FOR YOU TO ACTUALLY DO THAT WORK IN TERMS OF THE CORRECTIONAL OFFICERS WHO MAY BE IN THE PRISON.

JUST AFTER THAT, I WALKED INTO A SCHOOL.

ON CHICAGO?

>> IN CHICAGO.

>> THE EX AC SAME SIGNAGE, THE EXACT SAME LINE.

THE EXACT SAME SIGNAGE PLEASE STEP TO THE RIGHT.

THE YOUNG PEOPLE IN THAT BUILDING WERE WALKING DONE THE HALLWAYS WITH THEIR HANDS BEHIND THEIR BACK.

THEY WERE IN UNIFORM.

THERE IS A POLICE OFFICER THAT IS A ASSIGNED TO THAT SCHOOL.

NOW HUNDREDS OF SCHOOLS IN CHICAGO LIKE THIS.

>> THEY ARE ALL RUN BY THE PUBLIC SYSTEM?

>> YEAH.

THESE ARE PUBLIC SCHOOL, RIGHT?

SO HOW DOES THIS SYSTEM, I QUESTIONS ABOUT, SEEP INTO OUR CHILDREN'S ED EDCATION.

NOW IF YOU THINK ABOUT THAT?

WHAT DOES THAT DO TO A YOUNG PERSON LONGITUDINALLY.

IF A YOUNG PERSON HAS TO WALK THROUGH.

THEY MAY BE WIND DOWN AND WEARING THE UNIFORM AND SEE ACTUAL POLICE OFFICERS IN THE BUILDING.

WHAT DOES THAT DO?

THAT SCHOOL MAY NOT HAVE A LIBRARY.

RIGHT?

WHAT DOES IT ACTUALLY DO TO THE THINKING OF THAT YOUNG PERSON, RIGHT?

HOW DO THEY BEGIN TO SEE THEMSELVES AS VALUED OR DEVALUED SO NOW, THAT IS VERY DIFFERENT QUESTION.

WHEN WE LOOK AT THOSE STARK REALITIES, NOW I THINK WE TALK ABOUT THE WAYS IN WHICH BLACK AND BROWN BODIES ARE CRIMINALIZED ONE OF THE PLACES THEY ARE CRIPPLE NA NALLIZED IS ACTUALLY IN SCHOOL.

SO THEY ARE STAYING AROUND THAT.

WE HAVE TO ASK A DIFFERENT SET OF QUESTIONS BECAUSE IT GOES BACK TO THE EARLIER POINT SO IF WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT ZIP CODES OR RESTRICTIVE COV NENNORS GENTRIFICATION.

WE ARE NOW TALKING ABOUT FAMILIES WHO HAVE BEEN DISPOPO SEED OF ANY RIGHT TO QUALITY EDUCATION.

RIGHT?

SO I THINK, THIS BECOMES IMPORTANT TO PUT THESE THINGS TOGETHER, NOT AS SOME TO BECOME PANIC STRICKEN, BUT TO BE ACCURATE IN THE DESCRIPTION OF THE THESE PLACES BECAUSE IT IS QUITE A BIT OF A DISPARITY IN LARGE SCHOOL SYSTEMS.

SO YOU WILL HAVE A PLACE THAT HAS STOP QUOTES IN THEIR HE CON CLASS.

THREE ART STUDIO, SWIMMING POOLS, PACK TY AT THE HIGH SCHOOL LEVEL WHO HAVE PHD WEE ARE TEAM CHILE STUDENTS.

THAT IS ONE SCHOOL IN A PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM.

YOU MAY HAVE ANOTHER WITH THE RULES THAT I EXPLAINED THE LIBRARY AND HAS ACTUALLY BEEN DEPOPULATING.

THESE ARE BOTH IN THE SAME SYSTEM.

I THINK THAT IS IMPORTANT FOR LISTENERS AND VIEWERS IS UNDERSTANDING THE DISPARITY ONCE OUR SYSTEM, RIGHT M NOT THEY ARE TWO SEPARATE SYSTEMS BUT DESCRIBED TWO SCHOOLS IN THE THE SAME SYSTEM.

RIGHT?

THEY ARE STAYING AROUND.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT A PUBLIC EDUCATION, OR THE PUBLIC FUNDING OF EDUCATION.

NOW, WE REALLY HAVE TO ASK, WE HAVE TO GO DEEP AND ASK.

WHAT ARE THE RIGSALS FOR THOSE DISPARITIES.

>> SO THESE PRESUMABLY, EITHER SUPERINTENDENTS OR SCHOOL BOARDS THAT ARE MAKING THIS KIND OF A DECISION BECAUSE I MEAN, I DON'T IMAGINE A PRINCIPAL HAVE EITHER IN THESE AREAS THE BUDGET OR THE I GUESS POLITICAL CLOUT TO PULL THE RESOURCE TO MAKE INSTITUTIONAL CHANGES.

BUT WHAT I WANT TO FOCUS ON.

THIS INSTITUTIONALIZATION.

I OPT WANT TO GET TO ECONOMIC.

VERY QUICKLY FROM WHAT I CAN HANDLE.

THIS JUST REMINDS ME OF THINGS LIKE FROM THE COAST SPECIFICALLY AROUND THE PRISON SYSTEMS.

OF HOW WE INSTITUTIONALIZE THE CERTAIN GROUPS VERY EARLY ON.

SO WHAT IS, I GUESS, THE UNDER PINNING PHILOSOPHY AROUND THIS.

THIS IS FOR EXPLOITATION OF LABOR?

WHAT IS IT THAT MOTIVATES SOMEONE TO TREAT CONCERN THE SAME WAY AS PRISONERS?

RIGHT.

JUSTIFIED.

WELL.

IT IS THE QUESTION.

RIGHT?

AND I THINK NOW, YOU HAVE SOME CRITICAL GE OH AFTERS POSTED EDUCATION LIKE WITHIN OF MY COL EGG COLLEAGUES WHO TALK ABOUT MEOW LIBERALISM.

AGAIN, NOT TO GET TOO ACADEMIC BUT THE IDEA AROUND MEOW LIBERALISM IS THE TREEING OF MARKETS TO ALLOW THE FREE MARKET TO PURCHASE THAT WHICH WAS AT ONE TIME A PUBLIC GOOD.

SO NOW, YOU SEE THINGS LIKE PRIVATIZATION AS A WAIVE CHARTERS OR SEE IN CHICAGO WE HAVE SOLD OFF TOLLWAYS.

WE HAVE SOLD THE RIGHTS TO PARKING METERS BUT THIS IDEA THAT THE FREE MARKET IS THE BEST ASHER TO WHAT THE PUBLIC NEEDS IN OPPOSED TO ACTUALLY PROTECTING A PUBLIC GOOD AND HAVING FULL PUBLIC ACCOUNTABILITY TO THAT PUBLIC GOOD.

SO NOW, IN THIS PRIVATIZATION, THE ARGUMENT IS IF THOSE THINGS THAT I KEY SCRIBED ACTUALLY HAPPENING, THEN THAT'S THE FALL OF THE PARENT.

THEY DID NOT CHOOSE CORRECTLY.

THEN, THEREIN LIE THE PROBLEM BECAUSE WE HAVE NOT SQUAD QUESTION OF HOW A FAILING SCHOOL BECOMES A QUOTE ON QUOTE FAILING SCHOOL AND ACTUALLY SOME OF THE COLLEAGUES WHEN WE ASKED THIS LARGER QUESTION OF RACISM AND WHITE SUPREMACY IN EDUCATION, THAT QUOTE ON QUOTE FAILING SCHOOL AND UNDER WHITE SUPREMACY IS NOT NECESSARILY A FAILING SCHOOL IN FACT THAT IS OPERATING SCHOOL OR A WORK SCHOOL BECAUSE IT IS DOING EXACTLY WHAT IT WAS INTENDED TO DO.

TO MARGINALIZE THE PARTICULAR POPULATION TO USE RATIONALS BY WHICH TO CONTAIN THEM.

RIGHT.

I THINK THIS BECOMES AN IMPORTANT PIECE BECAUSE WE HAVE TO ASK THIS QUESTION AS TO HOW A DECISION MADE WHERE A SCHOOL THAT HOUSES KINDERGARTNERS THROUGH FIFTH-GRADERS DOES NOT HAVE A LIBRARY.

RIGHT M WHAT IS NEXT TATION OF LEARNING HERE.

RIGHT NOW, THERE IS ANOTHER THING AROUND NEOLIBERALISM IN TERMS OF FUNDING EQUATIONS.

RIGHT?

SO CHICAGO PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE FUNDED BY WHAT THEY CALL A PER STUDENT ALLOTMENT, SO THE AMOUNT OF STUDENTS YOU HAVE, AND ACTUALLY RESULTS IN THE AMOUNT OF MONEY YOU RECEIVE.

SO THIS -- >> EXACTLY.

>> SO NOW FRESH A SCHOOL DEPOPULATE, THEN, IT IS, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO PROVIDE THOSE RESOURCES THAT THEY MAY NEED TO HAVE A POPULATION.

SO THIS IS ANOTHER ISSUE AND THIS GOES INTO A BUNCH OF STATE EQUATIONS YOU HAVE PERIENCED HERE IN MICHIGAN AND VEHICLE,ED IN ILLINOIS AND IN TERMS OF BOND RATINGS AND NOW, NOW ILLINOIS IS JUST COMING OFF OF TWO YEARS WHERE IT DIDN'T HAVE A BUDGET SO NOW THESE THINGS HAVE LOCATED ALL OF THE DEBT THE CITY OF CHICAGO HAS A PENSION DEBT BILL DUE OC FIRST OF OVER $1 BILLION.

RIGHT?

THAT IS JUST THE INTEREST ON THE LOAN.

RIGHT.

THIS THING AROUND LOOKING AT THESE PARTICULAR SPACES SO NOW WHAT THAT DOES, THAT LOCATES THE POWER WITHIN THE PRIVATE SECTOR.

BECAUSE THESE ARE THE ONLY FOLKS WHO ARE NEWFOUND THOSE PARTICULAR CREDIT PAYMENTS FLOOR YOU HAVE.

THIS IS DIRECTLY IMPACT SCHOOLS BECAUSE IF THOSE SCHOOLS ARE NOW STILL PUBLIC TINS, AND THE FUNDING IS REMOVED FROM THOSE PUBLIC ENTITY, THEN, THOSE SCHOOLS THAT I HAVE DISCUSSED WE GET MORE OF THE SAME AND REALLY IN MANY INSTANCES WE GET EVEN WORSE.

AND THE ARMING THAT IS YOU KNOW, YOU MADE IT.

I GUESS IN BE A STRAK WHICH IS WELL YOU ARE JUST NOT CHOOSING THE RIGHT SCHOOL.

AND THERE IS A VOUCHER SYSTEM OF HAVE YOU CAN SENIOR SKOL AND YOU CAN CHOOSE SCHOOL YOU WANT TO AND THERE IS A WAITING LYSATES, ET CETERA.

HERE IS A QUESTION.

AND THIS IS FULL DISCLOSURE BECAUSE OF SOME SITUATIONS WITH MY WIFE.

WE HAVE TO SEND OUR CHILDREN TO PRIVATE SCHOOLS.

THE COST WHICH IS SIGNIFICANT TO MY CHILDREN TO GO TO SCHOOL IN A PRIVATE SCHOOL IS ACTUALLY ABOUT 2% LESS THAN THE ALLOTMENT PER CHILD FOR A GRAND RAPIDS PUBLIC STUDENT AND I DON'T WANT TO SAY THAT THE SCHOOL OR THE TEACHERS ARE BETTER OR NOT.

I DON'T HAVE EXPERIENCE IN THE PUBLIC SCHOOL.

WHAT I DO KNOW THAT IS THE RESOURCES WITHIN MY DAUGHTER'S SCHOOL ARE SIGNIFICANTLY HIGHER.

THE AMOUNT OF YOU MENTIONED IT IS A VERY GOOD UP-TO-DATE LIBRARY WITH FULL-TIME LIBRARIANS.

THERE ARE STUDENT-TEACHER REI.

MORE EVERYTHING.

SO THE RESOURCE.

HOW THAT IS YOU KNEE PRIVATE SCHOOL, AND THIS IS ME ASKING SINCERELY AND PLAYING DEVIL'S ADVOCATE.

HOW IS IT THAT A SCHOOL THAT HAS LESS MONEY PER STUDENT CAN PROVIDE MORE?

>> RIGHT.

AND THIS IS, AND THIS IS AN EXCELLENT QUESTION BECAUSE THIS IS REALLY ABOUT SUPPLEMENTAL EXPENDITURES.

WHAT I MEAN BY THAT IS SO YOU ALL HAVE A TUITION COST THAT YOU ALL PAY AS PARENTS.

NOW, IN ADDITION TO THAT TUITION COST, THERE IS ANOTHER SET OF FUNDS THAT ARE USED TO SUPPLY RESOURCES FOR THAT PARTICULAR SCHOOL SO IN SOME INSTANCES IN TERMS OF THE ELITE PRIVATE SCHOOLS SEVERAL SCHOOLS ARE ACTUALLY RIGHT.

SO YOU THEY CAN USE ENDOWMENTS BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY IS THE FUNDS BY EITHER DONORS OR FAMILY SOUS MAY PAY TUITION BUT MAY HAVE A BOOSTER CLUB OR PARENT TEACHER ASSOCIATION OR THE FRIENDS OF YOUR PAR TOOK LAR SCHOOL'S NAME.

WHEN YOU ADD UP THOSE SPACES AND NOW YOU LOOK AT THE PER STUDENT ALLOTMENT EXPENDITURE THEY ARE MUCH HIGHER THAN THAT PER STUDENT ALLOTMENT IN TERMS OF WHAT IS AFFORDED TO PUBLIC SCHOOLS THEN ANOTHER THING IN TERMS OF THAT PER SCAL ALLOTMENT, WHEN YOU START TO LOOK AT THE WAYS THAT IT GOES IN PUBLIC SCHOOL DISTRICTS THAT EXPENDED A LOT OF THAT EX PEND TURE THAT WE DON'T REPORT ON IS EXPENDITURES FOR CENTRAL OFFICE.

RIGHT.

NOT THIS ADMINISTRATION.

NOT EVEN THE INDIVIDUAL SCHOOL.

RIGHT.

YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THE OVERALL SYSTEMED A MIM STRATION.

>> EXACTLY.

THAT GOES.

THAT IS CENTRAL OFFICE OR CENTRAL OFFICE ADMINISTRATION.

SO NOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

IT WOULD APPEAR THAT THE PERSONAL AILMENTS IN BOTH SPACES WHO HAVE THIS DISPARITY OF AROUND 20% BUT IN YOUR INSTANCE, THOSE SUBPLIMENTAL COSTS ARE RARELY FACTORED IN.

WE DON'T HAVE, WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH ACCOUNT OF THOSE SUPPLEMENTAL COST WHICH OFTENTIMES EXCEED WHAT A PUBLIC SCHOOL DISTRICT WILL SPEND PER STUDENT.

SO WE HAVE ROUGHLY THREE MINUTES LEFT.

HOW CAN WE TALK ABOUT THIS IN A WAY THAT LEADS US INTO SOME SOLUTIONS?

OR SOME APPROVES TO IMPROVING OR PROTECTING CHILDREN OF COLOR WITH NOT A LOT OF RESOURCES.

AND IN OUR SCHOOL SYSTEMS.

RIGHT.

I THINK ONE OF THE WAYS IS TO BEGIN TO THINK ABOUT WHAT ARE SCHOOLS CONNECTED TO?

SO IF WE THINK ABOUT SCHOOLS BEING CONNECTED TO COMMUNITIES AND HOUSING AND SCHOOLS BEING CONNECTED TO VITAL HEALTH CARE SYSTEMS NOW, IF WE START TO THINK ABOUT IF A FAMILY HAS AN AFFORDABLE FLIES LIB, NOW WE CAN ACTUALLY KEEP MANY OF THE SCHOOLS POP LALATED BUT ALSO HAPPENS IN THAT SAME AREA, THERE IS A TAX BASE THIS COULD ACTUALLY SUPPORT THOSE PARTICULAR SCHOOL AS THERE BEEN UNDER FUNDED DISPOSSESSED AND DISINVESTED IN SO NOW, ONE OF THE TRAGEDIES IS TO LOOK AT COMMUNITY INVESTMENT FOR FOLKS WHO HAVE BEEN EXCLUDE.

AND ACTUALLY HAVING THE SCHOOL IN THAT SPACE AND YOU HAVE SEEN SOME MACHINE COME-THAT IS HAVE TAKEN THIS ON IN TERMS OF LOOKING AT AND ACTUALLY,SOME EX PERMENT THAT FOLKS ACTUALLY TRY TO DO HERE IN MICHIGAN IN THE CITY OF KKIN TERMS OF MAKE SURE THOSE LOW INCOME WORKING CLASS FAMILIES HAVE A SPACE FOR THEIR KIDS TO GO TO SCHOOL AND TO SUPPORT THEM THROUGH THROUGHOUT BECAUSE I BELIEVE THE KALAMAZOO THEY CALL IT THE KALAMAZOO PROMISE.

AND THE KALAMAZOO PROMISE IS SAY, LOOK.

IF YOU GRADUATE, YOU STAY, YOU STAY, YOU STAY IN THE CITY, YOU WILL GO TO SCHOOL.

RIGHT.

THOSE MACES AND PROMISES EVEN COLLEGE TUITION.

>> AND EVEN COLLEGE TUITION.

RIGHT.

SO THESE ARE STRUCTURE SUPPORTS FOR FOLKS WHO HAVE IS HISTORICALLY BEEN EXCLUDE BUD THE CHALLENGES ALWAYS TO PROVIDE ATTENTION TO THE FOLKS WHO HAVE BEEN EXCLUDED.

I THINK THAT IS WHERE OUR SOLUTIONS LIE IF WE TALK ABOUT EQUITY IN ITS TRUEST SENSE.

WONDERFUL.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR SHARING ALL OF YOUR RESEARCH AND CONDENSE IT DOWN TO I GUESS A FEW MINUTES OF CONVERSATION.

WE WISH YOU THE BEST AS YOU ARE HERE IN WEST MICHIGAN AND THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

THIS IS NEWSMAKERS.

WE JUST TALKED TO DR.

DAVID STOVAL.

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