(upbeat music) - Hello and welcome to The Journal.

I'm Steve Kendall.

Their mission is to help families find the education that works for their children, and making sure that Ohio families know about their education options.

We're joined by the President of School Choice Ohio, Yitz Frank and Ann Riddle, the Director of Provider of School Outreach.

We wanna welcome you both to The Journal today.

Thank you for taking the time to be here on The Journal.

[Yitz] Thank you for having us.

[Ann] Thank you.

- And yeah, Yitz, I guess I'll start with you.

Tell us, give us the background of School Choice Ohio, when it started and how it's evolved to the point where we are near the end of 2022.

Tell us about School Choice Ohio so people who may not know a lot about it are better informed.

- Yeah, so I mean, School Choice Ohio's mission primarily is to help Ohio families find options, school options for their kids that work.

We work with families trying to find better public school options, find a good charter school that works for them, and also use Ohio's private school scholarship programs to attend a school of their choice.

That's primarily what we do.

Obviously, so much of this is impacted by state policy and we, we, we certainly spend a lot of time advocating at the state level and talking to our parent leaders and school leaders around the state to make positive change, in this regard.

And, you know, the legislature can only do so many things, right?

And so when we created, or when the legislature created, many of the School Choice programs, we realized that there are a lot of particularly low income families that they don't know about this, right?

And we need to make sure that we are out there making sure that they're aware of options that are available to them.

And I think since inception, we've talked to over a quarter million Ohio families.

We've talked to approximately, Anne can check me on this, but about 25 or 30,000 a year or so, and these are primarily families that are calling up and their child is not doing well wherever they are, for whatever reason.

It could be academic, bullying, sports, culture, who knows?

And they just want alternatives and that's what we provide.

- Yeah, and about how long is the Choice programs that are available been in place?

How did they start out?

What was the first effort to make that happen?

- So there are five private scholarship programs in Ohio.

The first one was the Cleveland Scholarship Program, which famously went to the United States Supreme Courts in a case called Zelman, where the United States Supreme Court ruled that voucher programs are constitutional.

So that was Cleveland.

That was followed by a scholarship that's targeted to families who have children with autism, and that program is still around today.

That was followed by the passage of the EdChoice Scholarship program which was targeted towards families that are, whose students, whose children are assigned to what we consider to be low performing public school districts.

And the idea at the time, and there's a lot of studies including a study that came out this week showing that that program, by targeting it to areas where public school performance has historically been been a little bit underwhelming, that the program has not only created life-changing opportunities for students that use that program, but actually has had the effect of increasing the academic performance and results within the public school itself, and that's obviously a very important finding.

And then following that, there was a Jon Peterson Special Needs Scholarship Program created, again, targeted for the special needs population.

That program is capped at a certain percentage of students with what we call IEPs, which is education jargon for students with learning disabilities essentially, or learning differences.

And then Governor Kasich created the EdChoice income-based scholarship program, which was targeted to lower income families that they might not be living in an area where the public schools performing poorly, but we all know families that need other options and when you have means, you can purchase a home wherever you want and send your kids to Ottawa Hills, right?

Or whatever you prefer.

Or pay tuition to attend a private school.

And we just think from a moral perspective, every family should have that ability.

- And when you talk about these programs too, I know that they're, of course somewhat, I wouldn't say well, they're somewhat controversial depending on who you talk to.

When you look at these programs, they're providing additional options, what's your response to people who would say, "Well, yes, but are you taking money away from the traditional public schools by funding this other program?"

So how do you deal with it, because that's the one question that people seem to ask.

Is the state properly funding its traditional public schools?

Is this money being taken at the expense of them?

What's your response to that argument that, that some people would put forward?

- Yeah, I mean, so a couple things.

First of all, let's just keep in mind what is the purpose of the state's, state and local property taxes spending north of 20 billion dollars in educating students, right?

It's about educating all students and every student is different.

And there might be students that do really well in what we consider a traditional public system, and some students really don't.

And ultimately, we feel, and there's a lot of data behind this that suggests it's a really good deal for the state that when we send money and spend money on students' education, that we involve the parents in the decision about where that's spent, right?

So, but to your point though, it would obviously be a concern if these School Choice programs resulted in a significant underinvestment in public schools.

Public schools are the backbone of our education system in this country and we need to support them and we've always advocated for that.

About 75% of students in Ohio today are in what we consider traditional public schools, about 50,000 are homeschooled, 80,000 attend open enrollment in other school districts.

There's about 160,000 students in private schools and about 115,000 in charter schools.

So I just wanna make sure that the audience understands when we're talking about where these students are.

But to your point, one of the things that we've advocated for and actually, the coalition that you had on a month ago advocated for is that we like the idea, for a lot of different reasons, for the state to fund systems of choice separately.

And the reason for that is, to your point, it looks like in, under our old system, it almost looked like, in some cases, the districts were quote unquote losing money when students left.

And school funding formulas are far more complex than that.

I don't necessarily agree with that point, but I understand why it looks that way.

And so one of the things we advocated for is that the state now, in the last budget, state budget, adopted in July of 2021, we now fund those students separately.

But then we needed to look at, well how are we funding public schools in this state?

Now it's not clear that there's ever a perfect number about how much districts actually need.

My guess is there are 606 school districts in this state.

If you asked each of their superintendents, you might get 606 different answers, although they'd probably be close to each other.

[Steve] Sure.

- But when you look at the data, and again, there's a study coming out this week and there have been prior, at least, analysis of this, since the beginning and introduction to Ohio of School Choice programs, adjusted spending per pupil has gone up.

We spend about $12,500 per a student, and traditional public schools, vouchers send about $5,500 at K through eight level, although there's some other supports the state provides.

So the data say that we've actually continued to invest more money [Steve] In all... in our public school system while at the same time creating more options for families.

I think that's a win-win.

- Okay, good.

[Steve] Well, when we come back we can talk a little more about that.

Our guests are Yitz Frank and Ann Riddle from School Choice Ohio.

We'll be back in just a moment here on The Journal.

Thank you for staying with us here on The Journal.

Our guests are Yitz Frank and Ann Riddle from School Choice Ohio.

And we're talking about the School Choice program, the other options for people besides traditional public schools in the state.

Ann, we're here in Bowling Green, Ohio, that's where the television station is located.

Talk about how this would work with, for instance, the Bowling Green City schools.

If we look at the Choice package that are available, how is that working with the public schools, here?

- Sure, well the one thing, Yitz touch a little bit on H.B.

110, which is the current budget that the state is working under, which is implemented back in July of 2021.

The thing that's interesting is that Bowling Green schools, if you look at the school year 2021 versus 21/22, in 2021, they had 2,800, 2,800 students enrolled, 2,868.

And the funding they were getting from the state was 5.6 million dollars.

And thanks to the H.B.

110 where they actually increased funding for public schools, Bowling Green schools received 6.9 million dollars, which is a 23% increase, and yet they had almost a 15% decrease in the number of students.

So they got more money for less students, which is a, it's a pretty good deal, but anyway, unfortunately the number went down as far as students.

One thing too, in Bowling Green, you've got some great choices as far as private schools and students are using the voucher at schools like St. Al's, Bowling Green Christian, also Bowling Green Montessori.

But also they open enroll.

They have the option if they wanna switch over and go to another district.

And actually there were more students lost to open enrollment than to the vouchers.

They had a number of kids go make that choice.

Again, it's really about choices and what works best for the student, the best learning environment for them.

And it may even be just in their home.

[Steve] Yeah.

Now can I ask you a question?

Cause there seems to be some confusion as you talk about money going to, let's say Bowling Green City schools for a student that's an amount of money, a fixed amount of money.

One of the things that came up in our other conversation with the other group was that, would there ever be an instance where the money that is actually being given to the school is less than they would have to send back if a student does pursue one of these other options?

Because that was the impression that I got that sometimes, let's say, and the number's obviously not right, $5,000 comes from the state of Ohio to a Bowling Green, to Bowling Green City schools for a student.

If that student opts to go to another school, does more than the $5,000 travel with them or is it still that same amount?

Because there was an implication that more money would leave the district if a student open enrolled or took one of these other options than the state was providing with that traditional school.

Is that the case or is that a misconception, or is it just not that simple?

Maybe that's the question I'm trying to ask.

[Yitz] So the answer is really that it was never that simple, however.

[Steve] Okay.

All right.

- However, the reality is though, that impression was true because we distribute money based on a formula.

[Steve] Okay.

- So therefore wealthier districts tend to get less money per student than our more impoverished ones because the state needs to do more to equalize the educational opportunities for the students.

That being said, that is exactly the change that we advocated for that was passed in the budget.

So right now, students that were to leave the district, the district does not get funded for those students and they don't pay for them.

[Steve] Ah, okay.

And so if prior there was an instance where a student might, a district might receive, using your example $5,000, but they have to send $6,000 out the door, which it happened beforehand, that's no longer the case.

[Steve] Ah, okay.

And I think that's really important that your viewers understand, especially since that lawsuit was referenced a number of times.

The legislature did exactly what that coalition asked them to do, and then they got turned around and sued.

[Steve] Ah, okay.

- And I don't think it's gonna play well with the public.

[Steve] Yeah, and because that was, I mean, because if given the set of circumstances you described before the earlier version of this, that would seem to be an issue, but if what you're saying, which is what you're saying is now that is not the case, then that removes that sort of roadblock or that sort of bump in the road about, oh well wait a minute, is this a fair, equitable way to do it?

But given that the current situation is different than it was before that, that clears that up.

Are there any other misconceptions, any other things that people are gonna say, "Oh, here's why I don't like the Choice program."

And maybe they're operating on bad information or they're just misinformed or they just don't understand how these various options work?

Are there things out there like that you like to talk about and say, "Hey, here's one we hear all the time and it's not true, or here's the reality of it," versus what people think the way the program works?

[Ann] I think accountability is something that definitely needs to be discussed because there definitely is a misconception that this money is coming from the state, from people's taxes going towards private schools and there's no accountability.

Well- [Steve] Ah, okay.

[Ann] That is not correct.

[Steve] Okay.

[Ann] First of all, in order for a school in case of vouchers, in order for a school to be able to accept vouchers, the voucher comes in the form of a check.

A parent signs the check, a parent endorses the check.

It's the parent's decision where the money goes, which school they choose.

Also too, these schools have to be chartered by the state of Ohio, just like district schools.

They have state testing.

There is, the schools have to test the students that are receiving the different types of scholarships.

Also, the schools are overseen by a board of directors and in some respects there's more accountability because if I'm a parent and I'm not happy with the situation at my child's school, at a private school, for instance, and I'm using that voucher and I don't like it, we can leave.

Unfortunately, that isn't the case if you're enrolled in a public school, you may not have those options without the different choices such as the scholarships and open enrollment.

I mean, in the past, that was the only choice they had was a school at the corner and if it wasn't working out, they had no place to take their child other than to bring 'em home and teach 'em at home.

[Steve] Yeah.

[Yitz] And I think just like the opposite is true in some respects.

I've been involved in policy conversations around Education Ohio for almost a decade.

And there's all kinds of pieces of legislation reforms that we've tried to use to improve education overall.

All kinds of accountability systems, testing and report cards and so on and so forth.

And those things are important.

It's important that the public has access to that information, it's important that parents have it, but in some ways all of those accountability systems are needed because they don't have the level of accountability that private choice programs have because parents can't just leave.

And that's the most powerful accountability.

And parents, by the way, leave for all kinds of crazy reasons, but it's not crazy for them.

And the schools, if they wanna stay in business, they need to react to that.

And I think that we'd benefit from a system, public, private, I don't care what it is, that function in some ways more similarly to that.

[Steve] Yeah.

Okay.

Well we come back, we can talk more about that and some of the other issues that come up, because obviously school funding in Ohio is not a recent thing and how those dollars are distributed, not a recent event either, because obviously some of this goes back into the 90s and before.

And we can talk a little of that.

And some of the other things that people may not understand about some of these programs.

Back in just a moment with Yitz Frank and Ann Riddle from School Choice Ohio here on The Journal.

You're with us on The Journal.

Our guests are Yitz Frank and Ann Riddle from School Choice Ohio.

One of the things that has happened in the last couple of years, obviously, did the pandemic affect how people utilize some of these other options that are available that have impact on people moving from traditional schools to some of these other options?

Or has that changed the terrain on that any at all with regard to how people choose where they wanna send their kids to school?

- Yeah, I mean we've certainly seen, so we've seen public polling.

There's a group called Ed Choice, which is not related to the state program called EdChoice in Ohio, but it's an organization, a national organization based in Indianapolis that does a lot of research and promotes school choice and they've been doing like a public opinion tracker on this pretty much for like, I don't know, two years running, and for the first time we're seeing majorities of Republicans, Democrats, Independents supporting school choice options.

That was not always the case.

It used to be, there might be different choice preferences depending on the party and there still is some of that, but I think that's reflective of parents feeling the need to have more control over their kids' education.

Now that doesn't mean that they wanna leave their local public school.

But I think what it does mean is parents are recognized just with all of the difficulties getting through the pandemic and all kinds of debates about some of the policies, some of the governmental policies related to that.

I think that the bottom line is that parents finally realize that like, this is my kid, I should probably have better control about where they go, what they learn, how they learn, and Private School Choice programs are a really important tool to make that happen.

Right now there are a lot of students in Ohio that have eligibility for Private School Choice, it's about 80,000 students right now, which is up significantly from pre-COVID, using a Private School Choice Scholarship that the state provides.

But there are probably a lot more families that deserve to be eligible.

And we just ran the numbers last week.

Your typical, dad's a roofer, mom's a waitress, that family's not eligible for EdChoice.

[Steve] Oh.

- Those are not people that we'd consider to be high income, at all.

[Steve] Sure.

And so that's the direction that we think we need to go, making these programs widely available to the public.

And by the way, success would not necessarily mean that there's massive growth in the programs themselves, but like we talked earlier, what it would mean is that the system, our public system, our private system, our charter schools, will be very responsive to parents all of a sudden and will really improve academic outcomes.

I mean, one of the big pushes right now at the state level, and I think we'll see some of this in the state budget, our reading scores have plummeted.

[Steve] Sure.

- From COVID.

And that's happened around the country.

[Steve] Right.

- But in certain areas of Ohio, Cleveland in particular.

[Steve] It's more severe.

- Well we are a national outlier.

That requires a serious policy response, and we think this is part of that.

[Steve] Yeah, now Ann, from your perspective, I know your title is Director of Provider Outreach.

Talk just a little bit about that, about what your role is.

I mean, you've obviously- [Ann] Sure.

- Have a lot of information and you are able to talk to us about a particular school systems.

But what is your role with School Choice Ohio?

- So I work with all the different provider schools and a provider school, for example, is a school that accepts the different state funded vouchers or scholarships.

There are certain requirements they have to meet in order to be able to accept those scholarships.

[Steve] Ah.

And again, the scholarship comes in the form of a check that a parent endorses, the parent makes the choice.

So I work with the schools to make sure that one, they're getting the word out there, that they're there, that the choice is there for their, for families.

Also two, I help them with, the families if they're having any issues as far as requirements to apply and also any kind of technical support.

So I work across the state, 88 counties.

I travel in all the counties, working with the different provider schools.

And again, I'm familiar with Bowling Green because Wood County is right in my backyard, so it's not a problem.

And like I said, Bowling Green is pretty blessed because they've got some great choices.

You've got some really different kinds of schools and they work together.

And also too, you've got some good public schools as well.

So, but my role is to work directly with the schools in making sure those parents know about those choices.

[Yitz] Right, and Ann's counterpart at School Choice Ohio, and families can find more about it by going to our website, SCohio.org.

She runs a parent, her name is Cynthia Valencia, give her a little shout out, and she runs our parent outreach team.

And they work with tens of thousands of families every year.

And any family, no matter where they wanna go, or they might not even know where they wanna go, they can call us and our counselors will help guide them to the best option for them.

And so that's a resource that we wanna make sure as many families, it's bilingual.

We will figure out a way to help you if you give us a call.

[Steve] Yeah, no, but- [Ann] And Cynthia's got a great staff of people that are, like I said, working with the families like Yitz mentioned, and they're working with the families 24/7.

They go above and beyond, I mean, to meet them on their terms and their time, weekends, nights, things like that.

Just because a lot of times, again, they assume that things were okay and COVID brought it out there like, whoa, things are not okay.

Especially too if your up, I remember talking to a mom when I was giving blood one day and she worked at Red Cross and her husband was a truck driver, they had four children and they were in a school district that was fully virtual for over a year and a half.

[Steve] Ah.

And she's like, I am supposed to be teaching my kids and she worked full-time.

So things came to light where the issues were.

So she got, she learned about the different choices, but also she realized, "Hey, I need to pay attention to this."

This is not working.

[Steve] Yeah, well it's interesting that the pandemic, in some ways that would be, I don't wanna say there was a lot of benefit from the pandemic, but maybe there were outcomes that maybe did open people's eyes about not just education, but other aspects of their lives as well.

But that's a good one too.

One of the things in talking with you today and talking with the group that the Ohio Advocacy group too, is that both of you have generally the the same mission is to make sure that Ohio's students, Ohio's children get the best education possible.

So on that, you're on the same page and you're probably on the same page with more things than you're not on.

I guess that's good to hear because in hearing both sides of this, you get the idea that everybody is trying to get to that objective, which is provide the best opportunity for Ohio residents and their children to provide education for their kids.

So at least we agree on that in essence, and probably a lot more things when it comes to education in state as well.

[Yitz] Yeah, I think we have the same goals, I think that's true.

The one difference I would say is that the data says we're right.

[Steve] Yeah, okay.

[Ann] (Laughs) - Now the other group would say they have data that says they're right, but we'll, yeah.

So it's, yeah, it's interesting.

There are gonna be places where we're gonna have to, both sides will agree to disagree, but the reality is by the end, the goal is to get the best education possible.

Is there one thing, Ann, that people should know that you want them to know about the program, or what's the easiest way to find out about the programs?

That kind of thing.

- Yep.

No, I appreciate Yitz mentioned.

So we have a website, our website is SCohio.org.

There's some great information on there.

And then one thing too, we have a phone number there if you wanna call the office, (614) 223-1555.

There's always somebody available to talk to you if you're just wondering.

You're thinking, this may not be working out for my child and you see an unhappy child.

And really, it's really about making sure the child is in the best position possible to succeed, and a child that's not happy or not feeling safe or just doesn't feel comfortable, is not gonna do well in school.

And just like you mentioned, we all want Ohio students to succeed because that's gonna be for a good Ohio long term.

The state will thrive then.

And either you pay for it now or you pay for it later and we don't wanna be dealing- [Steve] Yeah.

- So it's really, we're all in the same, we're all thinking about Ohio's children.

But yes, I would encourage you, and also check out School Choice Ohio on Facebook and Twitter and as well as the other social media outlets.

[Steve] Great.

Well, we'll leave it there.

And of course, obviously in the future, be glad to have both of you or representatives of your group, both of you, whoever would wanna come on and talk about School Choice Ohio in the future, because obviously it's an ever-evolving situation.

And there'll be a lot to talk about in the future.

So, Yitz Frank, Ann Riddle from School Choice Ohio, thank you for being here today, and- [Ann] Thank you, Steve.

[Steve] You can check us out at wbgu.org and you can watch us every Thursday night at eight o'clock on WBGU-PBS.

We will see you again next time.

Good night and good luck.

(upbeat music)