From Sky news this is connections.

I'm Raquel, Steven.

Today on connections, we're talking about the courts.

For many Americans, trust in the justice system is at a historic low.

Gallup reports that confidence in U.S. courts has dropped sharply since 2020, and a Pew study shows fewer than half of Americans view the Supreme Court favorably.

At the same time, surveys of judges themselves reveal that more than 60% believe systemic racism exists within the criminal justice system.

Here in Rochester, an initiative is attempting to tackle these issues head on.

The Judicial Observation Project, or JLP.

Pairs trained community observers with volunteer judges, encouraging direct feedback and open dialog about what happens in our courtrooms.

It's a model that took years of planning before starting in 2022, and is now entering its fifth cohort of observers.

Today, we'll hear how this project came together.

What it's accomplishing, and whether it could be a blueprint for rebuilding trust in our justice system.

Our guest today are in studio with me.

I have Judge Melissa Barrett, a supervising judge of city courts in New York's seventh Judicial District and the lead architect of the Judicial Observation Project.

And I have Doctor Rashid Mohammed, director of community partnerships for Just Cause, one of the project's partners, who has worked closely with community members involved in J. OP.

Welcome to connections.

Thank you for being here.

Thank you for having us.

Thank you for having us.

So I'm ready to tackle this conversation.

I know you were here three years ago, Judge Barrett.

Yes.

Welcome back.

Thank you.

I know there's a lot to catch up on, so I can't wait for you to give us these updates.

Okay.

But I'd like to start with take us back to 2020, when this idea was first taking shape.

Judge Barrett, what most motivated you and your partners to create JLP?

Okay, so in 2020, there was an independent review of our courts in New York State and the entire court system.

And what developed as a result of that review was what is known as the Johnson Report.

And that report is essentially said, hey, there are some things that you all need to work on in the courts.

I'd like to think that here in the seventh Judicial District, we are really always sort of, beyond the cutting edge in doing things.

So at the same time that the Johnson, that independent review was happening, that then are now retired.

Former administrative judge Craig Dorn had already been out in the community saying, hey, this this I have an idea.

I want to I'd like to get a, community organization involved.

And he put feelers out across the community, the United Christian Leadership Ministry said, hey, we're willing to take this on.

And Judge Dorn approached me about leading and spearheading the effort to get it going.

And that's how we got started.

So we spent all of 20, 21 planning and part of 2022 planning and had our first cohort in 2022.

And here we are about to start our fifth cohort.

So how did you get judges to volunteer in community observers to participate in such a sensitive project with such a sensitive topic?

Well, I think, what we knew early on was that one and we are we got a new administrative judge, in 2022, in the district, in what Bill Taylor and what Judge Taylor wanted, made perfectly clear to all of us, all of the judges and our staff from the very beginning.

Is that just this idea that justice doesn't end in the courthouse?

So we could no longer operate, within silos, and that if we could sort of collaborate with community organizations that, were interested in collaborating, we would be able to do our jobs better, and that's it.

Letting our volunteers know that we have one institutional support from the top two, that this is meaningful, transformative work that you have an opportunity to participate in.

And then three, giving good training.

Yeah.

And I think those are the hallmarks of the JLP project.

And the word is just spread.

So I think that those are some of the reasons we've been able to be successful.

And I want to touch on the GOP project.

And what exactly are you trying to find here?

What is the purpose of this project for our listeners?

I would say in a nutshell, the purpose of the Judicial Observation Project is simply to help our judges identify any implicit biases that they may have and in turn, be able to do their jobs better and serve this community.

At a higher level, yes.

And we will definitely find out if the judges are doing their jobs better.

When we talk a little bit about what you've learned now that you're on the fifth.

But I want to know the initial training process.

What does that look like at what what do the community members have to go through?

All right, I'll speak to that, but I'm going to defer that, that question to my colleague, Doctor Mohammed.

And can I just say this right now?

Doctor Mohammed and I are only, two co-chairs.

We have a third co-chair, and that is Miss Nicky Steward.

She is the daughter of the late Reverend Louis Steward, who, initially, pitched the idea to judge Dawn.

And, and, Nicky is a pivotal part of our leadership of the jail, so I wanted to.

I don't want to leave her out here today.

Where is Nicky?

Oh, she's doing some work.

She's.

You know, she probably is.

She's a hard working person, so, Doctor Mohammed.

Well, as a judge Barrett mentioned, the hallmark of JLP is looking for implicit biases.

So as a volunteer for the program, what we initially do is undergo a series of training to look at what exactly does implicit bias mean?

How do you detect that?

How do you understand that even within ourselves?

We are very fortunate that we have a partner with the Monroe County and Cheryl Heyward, who is the equal opportunity employment officer for Monroe County, gives us implicit bias bias training sessions.

We break those up into 3 or 4 sessions, have those online, and also asynchronous.

So our volunteers can have an opportunity to go through that.

We train with each other.

We talk about those.

And again, part of that journey is understanding how we even get have our own implicit biases when we're looking for that in different situations.

We also start the program with a courthouse tour.

Judge Barrett and Judge Taylor and others working at the courthouse have been very supportive of that.

We have people.

The volunteers come in.

We go around the courtroom.

They get to see the layout because we don't want to assume everybody has been into that particular environment.

So they have an opportunity to do that and also meet Judge Taylor, Judge Barrett to do that.

The other thing that we have is a courtroom 101 session.

And in that session, that's the initial part of the orientation online, where we have representatives from the DA's office, the public defender, court services, and a variety of other entities.

So when the volunteers are going in, again, they can have a grounding or basis to do that.

And I certainly don't want to leave out, the Monroe County Sheriff's Office and the deputies who do an extraordinary job, in the courthouse as well.

That's part of our orientation, helping them understand, the job of our law enforcement partners as well.

And if I could, I would just say that the implicit bias training.

It really is a deep dive educational training.

So it's not like a one shot, presentation you're talking about.

Hours over a 4 to 6 week period of implicit bias training.

And as we've over the years, we've added the different pieces to it.

So when we first started, we just had the implicit bias training.

But what we found after the first cohort was when people come, came to do their observations, they spent so much time just trying to figure out who's who in a courtroom.

Because if you've ever been in a courtroom, you know, you see lots of folks in the courtroom.

So what's the role of the, district attorney or the, public defender's office?

But wait a minute.

Then there's a conflict defender's office.

Who's that?

Pretrial services corporation.

What do they do?

The jury's office.

What do they do?

So that courtroom one on one presentation is really structured to give our community volunteers just sort of a blow by blow by blow, presentation of who they are going to see in the courtroom.

The role of the individuals in the courtroom so that they can really focus on observing the judge for implicit bias.

Yes.

Instead of trying to figure out who's who.

Yes.

And I was going to ask, like, how does this, the GOP project differ from other traditional court watching programs?

Okay.

Did the focus just a judge?

So years and years ago, we used to have something here in Monroe County.

The court watchers, and they'd come around maybe once a year and sit in the courtroom and maybe 4 or 5 months after their visit, we'd get a little newsletter.

And essentially all it said was, oh, we couldn't hear anything.

The mics, you know, weren't the best.

And the observations were limited in having.

And it was a one time observation with the judicial observation, project.

We have volunteers that go in over the course of several weeks.

So we're talking about approximately 2 to 3 months of observation.

So instead of some someone coming in to observe me for one week.

And what if I'm having a bad day?

Yes.

And I there's something that said that, you know, it might not be the best thing.

And that person walks away with this one time opinion.

But if you are observing over 2 or 3 months, you get a better idea of exactly how the court operates, how the judge operates, and just a better understanding, because that's the other piece of the judicial observation project.

It really is an educational project.

When we think about, community education, this I think the GOP speaks to that too.

And I just have a question here.

Do the judges know who is part of the GOP?

And no, no, no, they don't know.

They don't know that would be of court like you.

They would put it on to be a conflict theory.

Right?

They don't know.

There's no discussion between the observers and the judges in the courtroom.

In fact, there is, no one on one discussion at all.

We do have an ethics opinion that, that allows us to have a group feedback session.

So because all of your listeners, you know, some of them may know, some may not know, that there are these really strict ethical guidelines that we have to follow.

And we are permitted to have a group feedback session at the end of the project that usually happens in April, and where the volunteers and all the judges that were observed and the committee members get together and just talk about what was observed in general fashion.

So it's not a oh, I gotcha, judge.

You really messed up.

Yeah.

It's more these are areas of development that the, judiciary can work on.

And then some things that we saw that were really good.

Yeah.

And how do you even get judges to agree to volunteer to being critiqued or observed?

Well, you know what?

I said it the last time I was here and I was talking about the jail.

And I'll say it again, we really have the best judges here in the seventh Judicial District.

I am so proud to work with all of my colleagues on the bench here in the Seventh Judicial District.

We've had, believe it or not, approximate 25 judges who have volunteered.

So just like our, community, folks volunteered to be observers, our judges.

This is, voluntary.

No one is mandated to do this.

So we've had a number of judges, agreed to volunteer.

And, in fact, when we first started, we really just focused on judges in the Hall of Justice downtown here.

But, since our first cohort, we have spread to the towns.

So we have town and village court judges who now participate in the JLP.

So it hasn't been a problem because once again, I just want to be the best judges that they can possibly be.

And you know, we don't we're it's not very often that we get to engage with folks from the community.

Yeah.

And Doctor Muhammad, what has been the feedback from, what is like for you the value of involving grassroots organizations, like just cause like, what has been the feedback from the from the community members involved?

Well, speaking about the community broadly, it's, very, very heartening to see at the end of each cohort we've experienced so far that the volunteers have said, wow, I learned a lot about the court system.

I've learned how the judicial system generally works, and they have higher confidence in it.

And frankly, see, when people come in, they see, hey, the judges and these other people are human beings like we are.

They're very professional and having a deeper understanding of it.

And then they in turn can be advocates for people about the court system.

I like to quote Judge Barrett all the time.

They are the people's courts.

So that is that is one thing in terms of the feedback for the judges.

There's some things just that they did not necessarily realize.

I think we may get some examples later.

But it's a reciprocating process of mutually reciprocating process where there is observations, but also an opportunity, for the community members to learn.

My specific organization, Just Cause, is part of the Talisca Center for justice, along with Empire Justice Law in New York and Legal Aid Society of Rochester.

We are all involved in the community in different ways, and we think it's very, very important.

In addition to our daily work to support, support programs such as the GOP.

Oh, and I will say we have to remember that the job is a collaborative effort.

It is truly a collaboration between the seventh Judicial District and UCLA United Christian Leadership Ministries, which is now led by, Bishop Doctor Fowler.

And when we do our group feedback session, it's not we don't hold that in the courthouse.

It's in the community at Doctor Fowler's church, right on Clarissa Street.

So it is truly a partnership rooted in the community.

Now, I mention, Judge Barrett, that the Gallup and the Pew study show, declining public trust in the judicial system.

Why do you think that decline is happening?

Because we're hearing you say, like, our judges are amazing, but these surveys and studies are showing that there is some decline in the public trust.

I mean, I think that is I think part of it, right, has to be what you hear every day in the media.

And it's just not, you know, for years and years and years, perhaps something was, an article in a newspaper.

But every day in our lives, our everyday lives, we are influenced by, the media coming at us from all different levels.

So I'm that I'm the problem.

You're not the problem.

I'm not.

But when you say why, one of the reasons.

I just think there's so much information.

Some of it is accurate, but some of it is not accurate.

So, while I know we're not talking about that, we're very today we're talking about the Judicial observation project, a real success.

And I think once again, that that is something that we can be proud of here in our area of the state.

And, Doctor Mohammed, how do you hear the community members talk about their experience with the justice system?

Well, as we're starting off of, there be people that have either had a neutral experience, maybe no experience, but there be people, maybe themselves or their family members have had some sort of negative experience, either on some end of, being subject to the justice system or being a victim thereof.

So the Dr. maybe is the judge said, some widespread perceptions on different types of things in the judicial system.

So maybe people are starting from that place as we start to move forward into the training and observation periods.

We, the co-chairs, also hope we just have sessions where we get on line with our co volunteers and talk about things.

What are you seeing?

What are you learning?

So there's a discussion process that happens throughout the training and also throughout the observations.

And then at the end as the judge mentioned, all the feedback has to be anonymized or integrated.

So what we do is the co-chairs, we get all the inputs from all the volunteers.

We anonymize it and generalize the trends that they're seeing there, and then we share it back with them.

Was this what your experience was?

Is this what you saw?

And then we go off and have that that feedback session.

So I think as a, you know, to put it in a, in a sentence, as we are going throughout the process, we're all learning together.

We're understanding each other's experiences because we're all starting at different places with that.

And then at the end there, I really, really, have a deep appreciation where we have just community members sitting down with our judges, having lunch and having a discussion about how our judicial system works for all of us together.

Yes.

Yeah.

So that's what the Judicial Observation Project is doing.

Is it building trust on both sides?

I would say yes.

I would say absolutely.

I would say yes.

It is.

It has done that.

Yes.

And can transparency initiatives like like this one really shift public opinion about courts or do they risk exposing problems within our court system as well.

I would say both.

So.

Right.

You can have those two ideas are not mutually exclusive.

I think that public trust can be built.

But then you can also expose some problems.

And those are the areas of development.

One of the things that came for me personally as a judge that came out of the Judicial observation project, I started just taking, being aware of just how many people were appearing on warrants, bench warrants, people who were just, in going into custody when they didn't return to court, being picked up on a bench warrant for a variety of variety of things, maybe they didn't do the community service they needed to do, and I've been able to put in place new projects within the court system that really are, like our warrant resolution office.

Now, that helps people resolve older warrants without being taken into custody where appropriate, so that when once you start engaging in this, level of transformative work, it doesn't stop if once you once we started doing the JLP and getting folks involved and seeing what was really important to community members and some challenges that we had said, well, why can't we do this differently?

Why can't we get an eviction diversion resource center right in the Hall of Justice, which I'm proud to say we now have that.

But that's that's how your mind begins to operate, and that's the transformative work that we're doing here in the seventh district.

And Judge Barrett, you said it never stops.

Right now you're on your you're moving into your fourth cohort, into the fifth.

The fifth.

Yes.

And you did a full four.

Yes.

And into in 2022.

You did say in the interview with Evan Dawson that you're hoping to create better judges.

Have you done that?

We have done that.

We have.

And I'll tell you why I believe that we have done that because our judges, you know, if you increase your knowledge of a particular area, you're going to be able to do your job better.

I've gotten you know, I sit in I preside over different types of cases.

So one of the courts, I sit in a problem solving court called safe court, I think because of, relationship building and my colleagues being able to trust some of the things that I've done and just things that I've put in place, that it's opened up.

Just the, willingness of different judges to try different things.

So, yes, I would say our judges are better judges.

Yeah.

And can you take us inside these sessions where you're, you know, going over the feedback with the judges?

What are you what are you hearing?

Can you give us a little bit of what they're observed and, and how have they responded to the feedback they have received?

Right.

So, in one of one year, I was actually observed.

Well, they were right.

And so and I'd like to think that I'm very aware of biases in that sort of thing.

Yeah.

But, some of the feedback and it wasn't directed at me specifically, but I'll take ownership and said, you know, I think I have done that before.

And and that is when folks are in the courtroom for court.

Right.

So when I have defendants in court and they would be coming from the audience.

Good morning.

Or good afternoon, Mr.. And Mrs.. You know, Joe Blow.

Yeah.

Jane smith how are you today?

What if someone was coming from in custody then I would my clerk would call next in custody.

Judge we have and then the person's name.

And so some of the feedback that we received after that first session was why the distinction?

Why not call this person Mr. and miss two?

Because that is the bias.

Imagine if they have a family member sitting in the courtroom.

And I reflected on that and I said, why?

Why the distinction.

So I no longer do that.

So now everyone is addressed as Mr. or Miss, right?

There is no need to say in custody because that's obvious.

That's a given when they're coming from the back.

Another some more feedback that has been given regarding interpreters, the use of interpreters, many of the judges, whenever there was is an interpreter used on the case, would look at the interpreter versus looking at the defendant standing before you while it's the defendant's life, there's no need to look at the interpreter.

The interpreter is a professional and can do their job instead.

The important they stress the importance of looking at the person appearing before you.

And, you know, we hear a lot about getting dressed for court right in how that I know you're smiling, how that is perceived.

Did you notice that when if someone is in court and they're dressed a certain way, was there any implicit bias there, whether they're seeing them in a suit or in a in a jumpsuit County jumpsuit, I mean, I no one's ever spoken to that.

Like, I've never heard that articulated from, any of the volunteers.

Doctor Mahone yeah.

I do not believe that that issue explicitly came up.

There were more things along the lines of what the judge was saying.

Somebody in custody may appear to be treated slightly differently than somebody that's, coming forward.

And also things like are the lawyers, the public defenders, the defense counsel, do they have adequate time to meet, you know, so there's some issues that fall outside the scope of what we're we're doing.

So we try to just keep it very, very clear.

We're looking for the implicit bias is that maybe, you would like to speak to that, Your Honor.

And, and I'll just say in that implicit, it gets tricky, right?

Right.

Because it could be as simple as every day you wake up, you get your cup of coffee and you just pick your favorite cup.

You don't even think about it.

You just do it.

Yeah, and that could be a bias.

You know?

Yeah.

Those are the that's the implicit nature.

And that's not easy.

Yeah.

And as far as Doctor Mohammed, the community, how have community observers been changed, you would say by participating in this program, I think a I would say two things.

One, that they feel more empowered because they have access to the people who actually, who serve the public, the, you know, the judges, our government employees, they are, mostly elected and they serve the public.

So, an ordinary person can see their public official in action and have access to them.

So I think that's that's one thing.

And as I mentioned before, a lot of learning just about the mechanics of the justice system.

And, I think it's pretty fair to say an increased level of trust and insight.

That's one thing that I try to work very hard with in the program is, allowing both the participants, the volunteers and also the judges and people working for the court system, to have an opportunity to, to see each other.

Is, human beings in our larger community together.

And I'm sure some adjustments have been made from cohort to cohort.

Correct.

What what what what are some of the things that you notice that okay, you changed as the cohorts continued?

Well, as we were speaking earlier, just adding the courtroom 101 session, we added that to it.

Adding, you know, who participates in that?

We wanted to a lot of folks had questions about jury duty and why, jurors looked a certain way or didn't look a certain way.

So we brought in the, commissioner of jurors, Commissioner Pirro, to take, to be a part of the courtroom 101 presentation.

Just understanding, where everything is situated, the technology.

We've got new technology in the courtrooms, virtual proceedings.

Yes, versus in-person proceedings.

And when it happens, when it does not happen.

So every year we we've tweaked the program a bit more.

I'd say that when we first started our training, the implicit bias training.

Oh, it was maybe close to about 20 hours.

Yeah, it was very robust.

And we said, you know, we want folks to volunteer.

So we over the years we realized we really we had to streamline that.

So we've streamlined it down to about 4 to 6 hours of training.

Now group training.

And then there is some, reading that folks can do offline.

But we've had to streamline the process over the years.

So each year we tweak and it gets a little better.

And for this, for this upcoming cohort, the fifth, what are we what are some new things that we're anticipating?

So one of the new things that I want to add, I'm going to we're adding on to the courtroom 101, presenters, because a lot of folks have questions about our court deputies and the role of the court deputy in the, courtroom.

And so we're going to at hopefully have a representative from the sheriff's office take part in that courtroom one on one presentation.

Just so that people understand when they come into the courthouse and they encounter the deputies, what their role is in the courthouse.

Yeah.

And you would think, are you is there something new that you're learning because you have all these the cohorts, is there something new are you looking for or do you have enough information now?

Do you think?

Well, I'll say this.

We when we started, it was a pilot program.

We are no longer a pilot program.

This is a, a program that is now a part of the fabric of the seventh Judicial District.

And in fact, it's being replicated across the state because there's nothing like it.

Just because of the collaboration, the, nature of the collaboration.

So I'm we're proud of that here in the seventh Judicial District.

And then we want to get young people involved with the JLP.

And because we now have, the centralized arraignment part, here in Monroe County.

And so we have evening arraignments and daytime arraignments.

I think that's it's going to be, permit, present an opportunity for young people to observe, whereas in the mornings they're in school.

So we want to get we want to get high schoolers.

We we want young people involved in this project.

And that's one of the reasons we were so excited to be here with you today, just to spread the word out, because we are recruiting for our volunteers now.

Oh, we're going to talk about your expansion.

We're going to take a quick break.

And and how is expanding throughout New York State and recruiting more, more young people.

And we have some comments from our listeners.

So we'll tackle that when we get back.

Stay with us.

We're talking about the judicial observation project right here on connections.

I'm Evan Dawson, coming up in our second hour.

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And we're back with WXXI connections on this hour.

We're talking about the judicial.

I mean that word I stumble over every time the judicial observation project and in studio with me, I have Judge Melissa Barrett, the supervising judge of city courts in New York's seventh Judicial District and the lead architect of JLP.

And I have Doctor Rashid Mohammed, the director of community partnerships for Just Cause and one of the project partners for the JLP.

And I have a comment here from one of our our YouTube.

Yeah, I know, comments make our guest nervous.

From Rick on YouTube, he said, while I appreciate the efforts of your guests to work on restoring trust in the courts, I wonder how this effort can also support efforts to improve trust in local law enforcement.

I think the mistrust of the criminal justice system starts with local police and simply cascades through the DA's office and to the courts, who is collaborating with groups on building trust throughout the system.

Thank you for your for your comment.

Yes.

And I guess, before I, pass the question off to Doctor Muhammad, I'll just say that's why that courtroom 101 educational piece is so important, because the volunteers get to hear from a member of the district attorney's office, from the, Defense Bar, from Pretrial Services Corporation, and, I guess I would say that that piece also has that is not lost on the committee.

And that's why this year, when you ask what was going to be different this year, we want I indicated we want to have a member of the sheriff's office, since they are the law enforcement arm, that is present every day in, the courts, in our community members, court users have, one on one contact with our court deputies every day.

And so I think it's critical, as Rick highlighted, to have them be part of this project.

Okay.

And so they haven't been part of the project before law enforcement.

They have not been to the extent, presenting.

Yes.

But I want I think that that's a missing piece.

So I think that's a way that we can improve the project.

Okay.

And what lessons or other lessons from this project could be replicated in other judicial districts across New York or even internationally?

Sure.

I've had, colleagues from across the state, reach out and say, hey, how did you guys start?

Or how did you guys really start at how did you do that?

How did you get to know that organization like UCLA to agree to be a partner with you?

And I think, and the piece of advice that I've given them is look at, look in your community who's actually doing the work and who's willing because there are a lot of risks that come with the project like this.

Yes.

Who's willing to sit at the table with you and not just talk, but listen and willing to do the work because it took us about a year, a year plus of actually meeting dialoging, hashing through some differences where we could, develop a program that would be robust and, have some staying power.

So it's going to take some time.

Yes.

And these, these risks that you speak of, can you, can you elaborate on some of the risks that you faced with this project?

Sure.

I mean, I think initially there was when we sat down with UCLA, what commute with the community from UCLA perspective wanted to see happen versus what we could do.

We have a lot of restrictions on what we can do as judges.

So what how did how could we reach a happy medium so that we could have this project greenlighted to go so when when you think about decisions that judges have to make every day, the response is to some of those decisions can be emotional because we're talking about people.

We're not making widgets here.

We're talking about human beings and making decisions that impact human beings every day.

So we wanted a project once again, that would have some staying power where our judges would be willing to volunteer because they would not be asked to do something that was not permissible, yet have some teeth to it.

Yes.

And doctor mama.

Yeah.

Go ahead.

I would also like to comment.

And the judge could expand on this, that the GOP is this one facet of a much broader effort, both within the seventh Judicial District and in New York state court system, to embrace the community?

If I could give one example where Reverend Stewart worked with Judge Barrett in order to have the GOP Reverend Stewart, the late Reverend Stewart also worked with, like the Brighton Police Department chief Dave Cafferty.

Captain Caraballo to the point now where you have a civilian interview panel, myself included, that interviews police candidates before they start to go through the process there.

So there's a lot of other components to this that address the comment that the, the caller, the person made online.

How is this all working together?

This is a piece of a much larger puzzle.

And maybe you're on it.

You'd like to talk about some of those other pieces.

I think you've captured it very nicely.

It is.

It is just a piece of what we're doing here in the seventh Judicial District.

And once again, I will maintain I think we are on the cutting edge.

We are always leading our courts in this particular area with the thought that justice does not end at the courthouse doors.

We've got to be out in the community and Doctor Mohamed with the community.

How do you get the community to really participate in something like this, especially when the trust is so low, cast the widest net and then is as you, as, you know, cast it through trusted sources.

So like UCLA, Reverend Fowler and others that are integral to the process, have them explore their networks.

And then also there has been, through UCLA.

But I went with Judge Barrett one time up to the Pittsford Rotary.

Was that so we're doing a bunch of diverse, backgrounds and not making any assumptions about who would like to participate or not, but primarily through word of mouth and also on the courthouse website, but through trusted messengers.

I believe is, the way to really grow the cohort.

And how have you navigated politically and culturally like terms like systemic racism when it comes to this project?

The implicit bias and the difference.

So from the judicial part of it, I tend to stay away from the volunteer observers when they're first getting started.

We have a observer coordinator who coordinates because that's where all those hard discussions are happening.

So, Doctor Mohammed, do you want to speak to that?

So we start off and there are people that have, experiences and as we know, things, like systemic racism, those subjects can be lightning rods and do that.

I would offer that one thing that we do is one, we want to listen respectfully for where people are in their particular journey on those types of things and then offer in, in a very sincere way.

One way to address those subjects is for us to have a common understanding, go through the process together and see what we find in our court system to make it better not to sit there and to look at it and say, there's something wrong or I'm making assumptions about it.

How do we work together as community members to improve our our justice system?

And now you're prepping for your fifth cohort.

What are you who are you looking for when you recruit new observers?

We're looking for observers everywhere.

So we, we are looking for folks who, they cannot have an acting, active case pending.

That's one thing, but we are looking for people with diverse backgrounds.

We are looking for people who are interested in the work because in order for it to really be transformative, you've got to engage.

It is not easy because you have to participate in the implicit bias trainings.

There are a number of training sessions that lead up to the actual observations.

We are looking for folks who can, who have the time, but that is a real time commitment.

And finally, we are looking for folks who have an open mind.

Yeah.

And what what is the what is the importance of having an open mind.

What do you what do you mean when you say you have an open mind.

So you are understanding of what happens in a courtroom.

It may not be the reality.

So if you can put aside maybe some of the beliefs that you had leading up to this, leading up to your participation, and be willing to engage, because when you can put those beliefs aside and provide dialog and really engage, that's when, the result of those conversations, that's what makes change happen.

And Doctor Mohamed, what should someone know before the question for you before they apply to be a part of this program.

Well I think an important thing that I just mentioned, there is a time commitment and we've as you've asked a question, we've improved that over time.

You know, compacted the training, made some things asynchronous.

But coming to the table, we are not trying to do a gotcha with the judges.

We are trying to improve our court system and build relationships, across a diverse cohort.

If we're not talking to each other, as you've mentioned, and if we are having, perceptions of different systems that are integral to our democracy, then I think this is an opportunity.

It may be something small we're doing here in Rochester or seventh Judicial District, but having 25 judges, a volunteer to do this and community members being able to talk to them face to face with their perceptions, I think is a very powerful thing.

Yeah.

What what kind of support are offered to the judges so that, so they can engage without feeling attacked or undermined?

Well, or this gotcha moment that that Doctor Mohammed speak of?

I think that the fact that we have that, feedback session, it is a group feedback session, is important.

So it's not a one on one.

Yeah.

Meeting, the anonymity of the, feedback is important.

Yes.

And just word of mouth from one judge to the another judge saying, hey, I did that job.

I really learned a lot from participating in it.

So.

And how do we measure the success of this program, judge Barrett, how do we know that this is really working?

Help change?

The courtroom culture?

Well, I will say that, the fact that this program is still in existence five years on and we've had about 25 judges participate in it, and it's spreading.

And I don't know if this was mentioned, but we've had about 55 community volunteers go through the training.

It speaks for itself.

I think that, you know, that it's training.

If you come down to our courthouse and see some of the things happening in the courthouse, just walking into the Hall of Justice and seeing Frederick Douglass standing there to greet you, it is very meaningful.

Yes, yes.

And I want to ask you, how has it changed you, Judge Barrett, as a judge, I am much more aware that we all have implicit biases.

Even if if you think you are the most, woke person and the most knowledgeable on a particular subject, there is still room to grow and evolve.

And that is what I really appreciate about this project.

The ability to evolve as a person and not lose sight of why I took the bench in the first place, and having a better appreciation for the folks that we're here to serve.

Yeah, because once and I say it and I'll say it until I die, these are not our courts.

These courts belong to the people.

And if we are not serving the needs of the people, then we're not doing our job well.

And and Doctor Mohamed, I know.

Do you see this project shaping how communities nationwide approach accountability in the justice system?

Yes.

Again, if people have access to the courts and are able to see how they function inherently, I think that builds not only trust, but it builds that accountability there.

You're seeing the average person come in and say, this is my system and I understand it.

And then people also see maybe how their system's functioning in different areas if it's not functioning so well.

I think power and change starts with knowledge.

Yes, knowledge and experience.

And having, that that knowledge.

And again, I tend to be lean on, on the, the very positive side of things.

But I believe very, very strongly that as these cohorts go on, you ask the question, how do we measure people coming back and wanting to participate and support the cohorts going, going forward, and then also people spreading the word with their communications channels about this particular opportunity, I think is the judge says the fact that it's going on, people want to do repeat cohorts, etc.

but I'm pretty sure there are judges that are kind of against this, right?

How are we?

You know, I have you dealing with that.

I maybe I've had a couple of judges who have said, no, I that's not something I want to participate in.

And that's fine.

I absolutely appreciate that.

But I'm not going to stop.

I think that we can eventually get those couple of judges to participate.

And I once again, I want to stress that, under at this point and I don't know where the time has gone, Rachel, but I am completing a 20 years as an employee of the 17.

Really?

I'd like to say I'm kind of a veteran at this point, and I have seen the leadership of three different administrative judges at this point, and it really starts from the top.

And administrative judge Bill Taylor, he has said this.

These are the types of programs the seventh Judicial District wants to be known for.

So, it the JLP is just one, one type of a program outreach program, if you will, to increase access to justice.

And we're very fortunate to have that level of leadership here in the seventh Judicial District.

And I would assume that the newer judges, right.

Have a different take or style when it comes to courtroom culture than the vets.

Right?

I would you are absolutely correct.

Yeah.

But there are some discretion that I have now that I'm the supervising judge for city courts in the seventh Judicial District.

From the very beginning of my time here in the decision, the, seventh grade, I've been involved with programs like this.

And as the, supervising judge for city courts, I think that I've had some I have some discretion in that we're pushing these types of programs out to the community, and it really does start at the top.

And the newer judges have come right on board and, you know, gotten with the program, so to speak, and what gives you hope, doctor?

Judge Barrett, that, this kind of grassroots judicial collaboration can make a lasting impact.

I think that the JLP gives judges the opportunity to hear from people at the grassroots level.

So people that don't have, court case pending.

So sometimes you'll get litigants to write letters to judges, but this is a situation where you don't a person doesn't have anything pending in court.

This is just, neutral, perspectives that they want to share with the court.

And we just don't have that opportunity.

So I am hopeful and I have hope because I believe my colleagues care and that this information is important to them.

And like I've evolved, they're willing to grow and evolve in a positive way.

And Doctor Mohammed, the question, same question for you.

What gives you hope that this kind of collaboration and these type of, projects make a lasting impact?

People getting to see people in their professional roles and them in action and realizing that across the board again, that we're all human, human beings.

I'm a military Air Force retiree, so I have a tremendous respect for law enforcement.

The court system, etc.

and having other people that may have a pejorative perspective one way or the other about the courts, about our law enforcement, are those types of things.

But once we have people that have an opportunity to interact with each other and share both ways, share.

Share information, see how people perceive perceive things.

An ordinary person, it could be when you were outside that building that looks very scary and intimidating.

You don't know what some of the processes are, what the judges are doing, what's going on with that system.

But as the judge said, and I'll say it again, the people's courts come into the courtroom, ability to engage and sit down with the people who are trusted with some of the most serious responsibilities in our society.

So that's in a sense, to me, it's really about engaging with each other, seeing the best in each other, because every day people in that court system, law enforcement, people across the community, we're all going to our jobs, in our professions.

And I'd like to believe most people want things to work and go better.

Yeah, and that is important now more than ever, right?

Where we seen we're starting to see the tension between community and law enforcement in community and the justice system.

Is this is that pressure now there is this significant now more than ever, Judge Barrett, to have this type of project, I would say what is significant and what is important at this point.

And it always has been important.

Right, because our judicial system, it really is the bedrock of our nation.

And we have one of the best systems in the world.

Do we have challenges?

Absolutely.

But the way that we improve our courts, our judges cannot operate in silos.

We need to hear from the community.

So the input, the opportunity to engage, it only helps us get better.

Yeah, I know some people have their favorite judge.

When you when you're assigned a judge you're like oh yeah I love that judge.

What do you know what these judges, these favorite judges have that.

Or do they participate in this in this project.

Right.

No.

We've had 25 judges to participate and full transparency to date, I've only had two judges say I'm going to take a pass.

So in terms of, you know, what makes a judge a favorite judge, I really you know, that might be for someone's favorite, I, I hope I am, but maybe that's a topic for another show.

And I want to touch a little bit before we wrap up here on getting young people involved right in this project and why that is so significant.

Now, I would say that it's significant now because our young people are coming into the courts at an earlier and earlier age, and their voice is matter.

We need to hear from them.

They need to understand how our system works.

And if they ever have to come into the courthouse, what to expect, and also to have an interaction with judges outside of being in crisis mode.

Because if you're in crisis mode, if you've got a case, it's too late, then yes.

So if we can get them into our courts now so that they understand that these courts belong to them also, then I think it will make for a better community.

And Doctor Mohamed, what do you what is your take on having younger people involved in this, in this project, in this process, of course, something straightforward.

Youth are our future.

I tend to look at it this way.

I grew up at a time where understanding and having trust in our structures, in government and community were fairly widespread, but at a time now where that is, eroded in some cases eroded seriously, this is an opportunity to rebuild that trust and really get people involved more Rachal if I can just say one last thing, of course, if you're interested in volunteering as a community, observer or volunteer, please email GP rochester@gmail.com and we can get an application to you GP Rochester at gmail.com.

If you are listening or you are interested in becoming an observer.

Yes, with this judicial observation project.

Thank you, Judge Barrett.

Thank you, Doctor Mohammed, for joining us today for this really important in-depth conversation.

Thank you.

Thank you, thank you.

Oh.

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