(upbeat music) - [Announcer] This is a production of PBS Charlotte.

- Tonight on "Unspun", a conversation with civil rights pioneer, Dr. Ben Chavis on the state of civility or the lack of civility in politics.

In today's America, welcome to the spin game.

Believe me, I know I'm Pat McCrory.

When I was governor and mayor, I played the spin game.

I was played by the spin game.

But aren't we all done being spun?

Let's take the spin out of the world we're in here on "Unspun".

(dramatic music) Good evening, thanks so much for joining us.

I'm Pat McCrory.

As a former mayor, governor, senate candidate, and former co-chair of No Labels, I know the game of politics.

Now, I'm here to tell you what politicians are actually thinking, but not saying.

Tonight, we're gonna tell you what politicians are thinking, but not saying about the state of civility in government.

In fact, behind the scenes, most politicians and political operatives know we must work in a civil way to find solutions to our complex problems and stop partisan gridlock.

But what many say in front of the microphone is just the opposite.

In fact, politicians know the more anger and emotion they generate, the more media exposure they get that helps them raise additional campaign dollars.

These politicians are also rewarded by getting their base to the polls and actually discouraging others from even bothering to vote.

But there is really one negative consequence that's totally unacceptable, but it is regularly used in politics these days, and that's appealing to people's fears, emotions, and anger, which can then turn to violence.

And this potential anarchy is a threat to our democracy.

The only thing that protects us from this ultimate negative result is our Constitution.

These words, "The right of the people to assemble peaceably."

Peaceably, these words are more important today than ever.

So, what do voters think about the state of civility in politics?

Amy Burkett joins us with more.

- Thanks, Pat.

Each week on "Unspun", we'll take the issue we're exploring to the people to get their perspective.

This week I went to Charlotte's Market at Seventh and learned people are talking about the lack of civility not only hampering effective governance, but also fostering an environment where personal attacks and incivility are normalized, which takes the focus off of substantive policy discussions.

- I think the biggest thing is having an understanding that we're all sort of, we all have the same goal.

We want the best lives for ourselves, our families, for our communities, and understand that.

For politicians to understand that that's the most important thing.

- Paul, what's your perspective?

- I think we've forgotten a lot of the basic things our parents taught us.

Number one, tell the truth always never lie.

We have opposing sides and now both telling untruths or things that have a little bit of truth, but mostly not.

And we need to get back to telling that so that people can make an intelligent decision and not have one side pushing them one way or the other.

- Brian, what's your perspective?

- I grew up believing that whole, it takes two wings to fly, for a bird to fly, you know, left side and right.

But I do think that there will need to be something, I don't wanna say catastrophic, but something big has to happen for us to come together and really stop, you know, being against one another so much.

So, that makes- - By partnership.

- Me think about maybe even back when 9/11 happened.

That's the last time I can remember Americans coming together.

You hate to see that kind of tragedy to bring us together.

What else do you think could be done so that beyond a tragedy to bring us together and restore that civility?

- Yeah, that's a good question, because I feel like tragedies are one of those things that force us to like evaluate what's important to us and we quickly realize the most important thing is each other and working together.

So, it's hard to replicate that outside of sort of catastrophe.

But I think it can be done on like an individual level, like having individuals sort of put aside their differences and really talk to each other.

- Paul, what role do you think social media plays in this sort of lack of civility that we see sometimes in politics?

- It is much easier to be anonymous and say things that you wouldn't say to someone's face.

Sitting here in a group like this, you can be anonymous, you can say whatever you want, whatever comes to mind.

I think instead of looking for the positive people immediately go to the negative in social media.

At least a large majority of them do, and that greatly influences what people think now.

- Brian, you get the final word.

What impact do you think social media plays on this sometimes uncivil society that we have in politics?

- Sometimes it's used for the wrong reasons I've noticed.

It's used to show one side some type of one side in this.

They'll take out a lot of details just so they can push some type of propaganda, because you know that propaganda is kind of the number one tool being used.

- According to the folks I spoke with, Pat, reinstating civility in politics should be one of a politician's number one priorities.

- Next up, an interview with my friend, Dr. Benjamin Chavis.

Dr. Chavis is a civil rights icon who was raised right here in North Carolina and graduated with a chemistry degree at UNCC.

He worked with Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and also headed up the NAACP.

He was a member of the Wilmington 10 who were falsely accused of burning down a grocery store and later received a pardon of innocence.

For the past two years, Dr. Chavis has been co-chair of No Labels, which had a goal of seeking civility in government.

I resigned from the group, but he's still co-chair and I'm so honored to have Dr. Chavis be my first guest on "Unspun".

Dr. Chavis, I'm just kind of curious, we're talking about civility and anarchy.

What do you think if Dr. King were alive today, he'd be saying today about the lack of civility, especially among politicians?

- Thank you, Governor McCrory, and I'm glad to be on "Unspun".

Best wishes to you with this television show.

Let me answer your question.

If the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. were alive today, he certainly would be very concerned that our nation appears to be heading toward more extremism and the absence of civility, the absence of bipartisanship, the absence of Democrats, Republicans, and Independents working together for the good of the nation.

You know, we need to put country over party, we need to put nation over extremism, and Dr. King would certainly call us back to civility.

- When you and Dr. King were working together for civil rights, you actually had a lot of pressure along with Dr. King from being maybe more militant and even turning to violence to move things forward quicker with civil rights.

How did you and Dr. King hesitate or not agree to do that with some pressure that you had to do just that?

- Well, thank you.

You know, Dr. King and I'm one of his mentees, we both became students of history and we've learned over time, even before the 1960s, that violence begets violence.

Violence is not the way to achieve progress.

And that's why the Civil Rights Movement hallmark was nonviolent social change.

Sometimes it was nonviolent civil disobedience, but we emphasized nonviolence.

We wanted to make more progress, but we wanted do it in a nonviolent way.

Now, today in 2024, it appears that some people wanna return to violence.

I thought what happened on January the 6th was just the tip of the iceberg.

And if this election does not go right in 2024, I pray to God that we don't return to violence.

- You know, if anything, you had a right to be bitter, because you served time in prison right here in North Carolina for a crime you didn't commit.

And yet, we see all this bitterness and anger and emotion.

How do you keep yourself from showing bitterness and anger for what you were put through and how do you convey that message to young people so they will not turn to violence?

- Thank you, Governor, very good question.

One of the things that Dr. King taught all of us who worked for the Southern Christian Leadership Conference in the 1960s before Dr. King's assassination.

He used to tell us, "Bitterness only distorts the beholder."

In other words, when you engage in bitterness and hate and anger, you destroy yourself.

It does not make any advance.

And so, one of the things I learned today is that, you know, I'm not bitter.

I think people should learn from the Wilmington 10 case.

I think people should learn from all of the things that have been done in the past, but I try to weigh things in a balance, Pat.

I think there are more good people in the world than bad people.

I think that at the end of the day, freedom, justice, equality wins out, but it must be for everybody.

And that is why now, one of the reasons why I joined No Labels was because we believe in the oneness of all humanity.

That everybody should be treated equally, everybody should be treated fairly, and everybody should respect, you know, the qualities of what makes us all the best of the blessings that we receive from the Creator.

I think the United States of America has come a long way.

We still have not reached fulfillment yet.

You know, we're still a nation that's evolving and I think we wanna make sure that we continue to evolve in a positive way and not revert back in a negative way.

- You and I shared a stage at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill about a year ago, and I think people were expected "The Jerry Springer Show", because here we had a Black Democrat, civil rights activist, and a white Republican Conservative.

Why did you do that with me?

- Well, again, Governor, thank you.

I was honored to be on the stage with you at the University of North Carolina at the Chapel Hill campus.

I believe that, yes, a lot of people came out, 'cause they thought they were gonna see a boxing match.

They thought they were gonna see a political diatribe, but what they saw was the essence of civility.

I have a lot of respect for you, Governor, and you have a lot of respect for me.

And that's what we showed those students at UNC Charlotte as well as UNC Chapel Hill.

We may have political differences, but our political differences should never get to the point where we disrespect one another or whether we hate one another, where we wish the worst that would happen, because there's some difference politically.

I think that the example that we set, Governor McCrory, you and I together on that stage, we need more of that, not only in North Carolina, but in Washington, in the Congress of the United States.

You know, they're talking about now getting rid of the House Speaker.

There's so much division, not only in Washington, but in many states.

I'm hoping that people will learn from the past, Pat, and not repeat the past.

- What advice do you give to politicians who don't wanna work together and call each other names?

What can both of us do and what can the public do to encourage these politicians in a divided government to work together?

- I think we should continue to encourage elected officials at the federal government level, at the state level, and even at the municipal level.

All levels of government, people should work together, and we should not allow our political identification, whether we are Republican, whether we're Democrat, whether we're Independent, to get in the way of doing what's right for the people, for the majority of the people of our nation and the world in which we live in.

I'm optimistic, Governor McCrory, that we will not hopefully drift backwards, but continue to move forward.

It's gonna be a challenge.

I think the 2024 election is gonna be the most important election of our lifetime, but we need people to be engaged.

One of the things that we were successful in doing in No Labels, we got a million people to sign up for moderation, for principles at the middle and not at the extreme of the political spectrum.

We got ballot access in 22 states.

So, that was tremendous achievement.

Now, I think we have to figure out how do we leverage those assets that we build to learn forward?

But I'll also say, to answer your question, in closing.

To the people who are elected to office now, if you can't use your office to promote civility, if you cannot use your office so that people can embrace the respect of our humanity, then I think you should think about, you know, moving over and let somebody else be in that office who are interested in politics.

Unfortunately, Governor, the political sphere right now doesn't necessarily attract our best people, because people don't want to be maligned.

People don't want to be mischaracterize.

We live in such negativity, but I don't want us to lose hope.

I still think that we have a great nation and great future, but that greatness will only be materialized to the extent to which we all work together.

- Hey, it's great seeing my friend.

You're a hero to North Carolina and it's good to talk to a fellow North Carolinian.

God bless you, and thanks for being on the first show of "Unspun".

God bless you.

- God bless you, thank you.

(dramatic music) - All right, we're gonna have some fun.

Tonight, we're talking about the top five promises politicians make and then break.

Of course, I've never done this before, it's all the other politicians that have done this.

But let's talk about the top five promises politicians make, especially on the campaign trail, and then they break.

We'll start off with number five.

Number five, I will not become a politician.

Really?

I will not become a politician.

I hate to tell everyone.

The minute you file for elective office, you become a politician, because you've gotta start raising money, you've gotta come up with campaign signs, you've gotta come up with a slogan.

Guess what?

That's becoming a politician.

So, you're already breaking the promise before you even start.

Number four, I will always put country over party.

Don't you hear that all the time in commercials.

I will put country over party.

Well, the fact of the matter is, the minute you're elected, you join your party caucus, whether it be Republican or Democrat.

You join that caucus and you're committed to that caucus.

And when you break from that caucus, you find out you don't get the chairmanship, you don't get the committees you want, you can't raise the money you want.

So automatically, you're breaking the promise that you committed to.

Number three, another promise.

I will support term limits.

I will support term limits.

Everyone's for term limits once they're elected, but once they kind of get used to the power, and the influence, and the help, and the attention, all of a sudden you never hear politicians, once they're elected, come up with the idea of term limits.

They never introduce that legislation.

So, the concept of being for term limits we're all for until we're elected.

Okay, number two.

Number two, I will not be influenced by special interest groups and big money.

Oh, I hate to this, but the fact of the matter is, the minute you start lobbying for votes, and the minute you start raising money, you're being influenced.

It's a natural dynamic.

And frankly, if someone gives you a large check, I dare any politician to say, they won't return their phone call quicker than other phone calls.

That's just the way the system worked.

Does it mean you'll always vote their way?

No, it doesn't always mean that way.

The odds are in favor of that, but the fact of the matter is, you will be influenced by large crowds and by financial donations.

And number one, the number one, number one, have you got me?

Number one.

The number one promise that we break is, I will fight for you.

I will fight for you.

It's a metaphor, but it plays well with big audiences.

But the fact of the matter is have you ever really seen a politician fight for you?

No, you'll see them argue for you, but that's about it.

On January 11th, did you see any politicians?

I'm sorry, January 6th.

Did you see any politicians actually fight?

No, they ran.

It's a great metaphor.

It means they'll stand up for you, but they're not gonna fight for you, nor should they.

(dramatic music) All right, now for a little pressure on me.

PBS's Charlotte's Jeff Sonier, who spent more than 40 years covering politics here in Charlotte, joins me for "Unspun" 1-on-1 segment.

- That's right, we've got quick questions.

- Jeff, put the pressure on me.

- Quick questions, one minute answers.

Governor, you're ready for this?

- I'm ready.

- Okay, question number one.

The Biden-Trump presidential race.

How is that gonna affect the governor's race in North Carolina between Josh Stein and Mark Robinson?

- The history of people running for governor as a Democrat is you avoid the national ticket altogether.

Roy Cooper did it.

Almost every Democratic candidate has avoided any connection with the national ticket whatsoever.

It's gonna be interesting regarding Robinson.

Will Trump wanna connect himself with Robinson, because Robinson's even more controversial than Trump.

So, that's what's gonna be very interesting is the connectivity between the governor's races and their partisan connections at the presidential level.

- Another question about those down scale or down ballot races.

Beyond the governor's race, which one will you be looking at or which couple of races will you be looking at as the most controversial?

- Most controversial will be the Attorney General's race and the school superintendent race is gonna be extremely controversial.

- The Attorney General's race, two Charlotte candidates, Dan Bishop and Jeff Jackson.

Do you think gonna be a good one?

- Jeff Jackson's got a extremely strong social media campaign.

Dan Bishop has a very strong voice and loud voice in Congress.

So, they're not afraid to express their opinion.

And at times it's a pretty strong opinion.

On the school superintendent race, you've got someone who used to be with a special more liberal interest group up in Winston-Salem.

Former school superintendent here in Charlotte, versus an unknown candidate who raised her kids in a homeschool environment, never attended public school, and upset Katherine Truitt, who used to work for me as my education advisor.

So, that's gonna be extremely interesting and controversial race for school superintendent.

- Couple of questions about local politics.

City officials in Charlotte, they want extra taxes for light rail, rapid transit.

Will they ever get that from the Republicans in Raleigh?

- Right now, most likely not.

Ever is a long word, but in this next session, most likely not, because you got a problem.

City of Charlotte is almost all Democrat, their delegation, the city council, the county commission, the school board.

The delegation Republican, super majority in Raleigh, and almost all those are rural representatives and they're going, why does Charlotte need any help?

They've got everything.

Some things never change.

- You kinda answered this question already, but let me follow up.

Why the disconnect overall between Charlotte leaders and Raleigh leaders now and maybe back in your day as well?

- Well, again, some of it's partisan.

Charlotte has become a blue city, so is Raleigh, so is Greensboro, so is Asheville.

So, the urban areas have become blue cities, but the legislature is all red, because the rural legislators and also the gerrymandering of districts.

The gerrymandering of districts have benefited the Democrats in the urban areas and benefited the Republicans in the rural areas.

And there comes the conflict, very similar to the national level.

- So, the disconnect, not just Charlotte's problem obviously.

- Not just Charlotte.

- Last question, kind of a upbeat one.

Which political movie would you watch, or would you recommend people to watch, to kind of get a feel for what politics is really like?

- One of the best kept secrets, a movie called "Being There" with Peter Sellers who was filmed the Biltmore Estate right here in Charlotte North.

I mean in Asheville, North Carolina.

And it's a gem of telling what today's politics are all about.

- You know, we actually have a clip of that movie.

- Of "Being There"?

- Let's take a quick peek at that clip from "Being There".

- [Reporter] Mr. Gardner, what was your reaction to the post editorial on the President's speech?

- I did not read that.

- [Reporter] But sir, you must have at least glanced at it?

- I did not glance at it.

- Mr. Gardner, the New York Times spoke of your peculiar brand of optimism.

What was your reaction to that?

- I do not know what it means.

- [Reporter] Sorry to persist, sir, but it would be of great interest to me to know just what newspapers you do read.

- I do not read papers, I watch TV.

- So, he doesn't read newspapers, he just watches television to get all of his information.

I'm not sure that's the kind of politicians we have or we want.

- He's someone who has good sound bites and metaphors.

The metaphors are interpreted any way the public wants to hear them.

That's the best kind of politician.

To say something and everyone interprets it a different way and therefore you get everyone's vote.

- Nice job, Governor, on the quick answers to the quick questions.

And that's this week's "Unspun" 1-on-1 segment here on PBS Charlotte.

(dramatic music) - To wrap up our show, each week we've got a segment we're calling Backspin where we'll give thanks to public servants for the things they've done in the past.

Recently, I'm sad to say that Senator Joe Lieberman died after falling in New York City.

He was a senator who was a role model in civility and bipartisanship at the risk of his political future.

In fact, in 2000, Joe Lieberman was the first Jewish candidate on a presidential ticket.

He was part of the campaign where the race was basically determined by a Supreme Court ruling and 500 votes in Florida.

Did he honorably accept the results and encourage a peaceful transition?

Absolutely.

When his own political party turned on him in the Senate reelection, which came later on, did he give up?

No, he ran as an Independent and won.

During this past year, he served with me as co-chair of No Labels.

In that role, he helped develop common sense solutions to some of our nation's most serious problems.

For example, on the issue of immigration, Senator Lieberman said, "You know what?

Let's protect the border and close the amnesty loopholes."

And then he said, "Why don't we accept the Dreamers in as citizens, both the Republicans and Democrats get what they want.

Problem solved."

Did Congress listen?

No, but he had the courage to say the obvious, even though he got pushback from the partisan political operatives in Washington.

I was honored to get to know him over the past two years.

And what I saw was a man who said the same thing in private as he did in public, and he did put country over party.

He stood for civil discourse and bipartisanship more than any politician I've ever met.

He was kind, smart, and a true public servant.

I'm gonna miss Senator Lieberman.

Thank you, Senator Lieberman, and I'll miss you.

Well, that does it for tonight's episode of "Unspun".

Thanks for joining us and I hope you'll come back next week as we explore the politics of Social Security on our next "Unspun", where we'll tell you what politicians are thinking, but not necessarily sane.

Goodnight, folks.

(upbeat music) (upbeat music continues) (upbeat music) - [Announcer] A production of PBS Charlotte.