>> From WXXI.

News.

This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour is made with the life of a show girl.

Taylor Swift's new album has been highly anticipated, and now the critics.

I was going to say they are mostly being tough on her.

I think it's a mix and I know there are some good reviews out there.

The good review from rolling Stone said that on her 12th studio album, Swift hits all her marks from new, exciting sonic turns to incisive storytelling.

Five stars out of five but I've seen more reviews like people like Spencer Kornhaber at The Atlantic.

Who says Taylor Swift's fairy tale is over?

And he says part of the problem is she's got everything she ever wanted.

And it's all sort of a drag.

He writes.

She doesn't sound like she's having fun.

She has the team captain, the cushion cut diamond, the fans who will shell out for yet another branded cardigan.

But Taylor Swift's The Life of a showgirl and the life it seems to portray is a charmless chore.

Well, listen, I respect Taylor Swift as a songwriter, as a very smart person, a business person.

A musician.

She's very, very talented.

I'm not a swiftie, but I can appreciate her work.

But every time a new Taylor Swift album comes out, people come out of the woodwork saying, you got to do a show about this.

She is an institution.

Well, what I was wondering is, is it possible to make good art if you're happy?

This album is she's like, she's finally happy.

She does have it all.

Kornhaber is not wrong.

She's got the team captain and the cushion cut diamond and the life that she thinks she's always wanted.

What does that do to your art?

Can you write great songs if you're not pining for something that if you got everything you ever asked for.

Let's find out.

With some superfans and a not so superfan, my colleague Hannah Maier is here, music director of the Route on WRUR and WITH and not a superfan.

>> Not a superfan and not a swiftie.

but a lover of music.

And I do have a lot of a lot of opinions.

So I'm here.

I'm here to share them.

You're here to be.

>> The fly in the ointment.

>> Come on.

I know I was a little nervous walking into this.

I'm like, I feel like I'm going into the lion's den with the Swifties here, but I have.

I have no disdain towards Taylor.

I think she's a fantastic artist.

I think she knows how to hustle.

I mean, she's obviously made a huge empire for herself as one of the most popular musicians of all time and one of the richest people on the planet.

Currently.

but I do think there is some artistry missing in her music.

For me personally.

>> Don't give it all away.

>> Here, okay?

We're just tipping the fans now.

>> Build up to hating you.

>> Okay, great.

>> No one's gonna hate anybody.

We all can have a nice conversation.

Madi Russell is a super fan.

Hello, Maddie.

>> Hi.

How is everyone today?

>> Very good.

Thank you for making time for us across the table from Maddie Sara Eaton Swifties.

>> Hi, everybody.

How are we?

>> I'm very good.

Thank you for being here.

Gio Battaglia Digital Content producer at News 8 WROC a Swiftie.

>> Diehard.

>> Diehard.

Okay, so when did you realize that Hannah Maier was a fraud?

>> About five minutes ago.

Yes.

>> I am so curious about, like, what is so captivating about Taylor.

I mean, I have bands that are like that for me, like diehard bands that I love so much, but I'm so curious to hear what you guys have to say about, like, why?

Why?

That's like it for you.

Like why?

What about the great.

>> Let's start with that.

It's a great question.

Let's go around the table.

What about you, Gia?

>> I think for me, what it started with was I really dove into her, probably like that 2020 folklore.

Like, I remember listening to it for the first time on a train, and it was just like the perfect setting and scene.

And then just seeing the community that it brings together locked me in and mixed with the music itself.

>> A community in person, community online just in general.

>> Both.

I mean, it started I read a bunch of discourse on social media about the album.

I like to know what other people think, but then seeing how people turn out for Record Store days and any event that she has, I just like, like that people can come together like that.

And even this.

>> So how many shows have you been to?

>> Just one.

I've only seen her one time in person.

>> And what was it like?

What was the vibe like among the fans?

Was it positive?

>> Oh my gosh, yeah, everyone was ready for the show to start and everyone was excited for each other to have a good time.

>> Well, let's go around the table here.

Sara Eaton a fan.

Since when and why?

That's a great question from Hannah.

What is it about Taylor for you?

>> Well, I've been a fan since she came out, so.

Right when debut was there, you know, in that 2007 era, watch it kind of grow up with when Tim McGraw was released.

And for me, it wasn't.

I was a Britney fan.

I wasn't necessarily a country fan, and I just wasn't there.

But I have three younger sisters who we are all very different people.

What I loved about this was the fact that it she was something that we all enjoyed, and I've been able to go see every concert.

I'll put an asterisk there.

There may have been a child being born that prevented a 1989 prevent attendance.

But we don't talk about it.

But we we've been able to keep going, and we've been dressing up as her since she's been going to concerts.

So the r square wasn't the first kind of costuming.

It was something we've been able to do as kind of a family.

And that connection, just for my personal life, the acceptance of other Swifties to just embrace everybody.

And there's not a lot of, you know, you're not too good of a swiftie or you're not swiftie enough.

Like, I love hearing that in 2020 is when you got to join in and it wasn't.

Well, I've had her record since forever and I saw her.

It's absolutely come into the fandom.

We love you, we embrace you, and it's just been such a wonderful community to be a part of.

>> Well, let's find out what Maddie Russell says about your what's your timeline here?

>> So my timeline is kind of disjointed.

I remember really loving the music from fearless, her second album.

When it came out, I was in middle school ish, junior high ish, and I remember everyone I knew saying, oh, my God, turn this junk off.

This is so stupid.

This is too mainstream.

And so I didn't listen to her until the, you know, 2021 Midnights folklore era.

And something in me the first time I sat down to really listen like that little girl that was so afraid to enjoy this music and to enjoy things that were, you know, girly, I think she was healed a little bit by that.

And I mean, the fandom is so amazing.

The amount of times people have said, welcome home.

I say it to people too, or welcome to the family.

but I think for me, like the thing that keeps me coming back is her kindness and her authenticity.

She seems so down to earth.

she never talks about, like, hey, look at how good I'm doing.

Or, you know, crediting just herself.

It's always great gratitude.

Gratitude towards the fans, gratitude towards her crew.

And just the way that she interacts with the fans visiting children in the hospital, surprising people at their bridal showers.

she just has that connection.

And she lets herself be vulnerable in a way that I think a lot of stars are afraid of.

So it really does foster kind of a closeness.

>> Okay.

All right.

Hannah, there's the first set.

So you're getting inside the minds now.

>> I am.

And what I took away most from that, that I wrote down is that the fans of Taylor accept new fans in very easily.

And like you were mentioning, the family aspect of that.

Some of the bands that I have been fans of, like, let's throw out Radiohead as an example.

I was super into Radiohead when I was in high school and then in college, and I've seen them like 15 times waiting in line with those fans is horrible.

They're not nice people.

Really?

Yes.

They are not nice people.

I mean, some of them are.

>> There's got to be some nice Radiohead fans.

Come on.

>> There are.

And I know some of them are good friends of mine, but it is it's a little more cutthroat.

It's like we're waiting in line to get in there first.

not as it doesn't sound as comforting and warm as the Taylor Swift fans might be.

So I can see how as a community like, aside from the music and aside from her, just everybody getting together seems a little bit more welcoming than, you know, maybe some indie or alternative or like, punk shows.

>> Yeah, no, that's a really interesting observation.

I mean, it takes me back to when I took my son, who was ten, to see his favorite band in person.

It was his first live concert, and he knew every word to Ager's songs, and he loves them so much.

But I didn't know if he was going to cut it loose in concert with 15,000 fellow travelers and just sing along.

Or if he was going to be too cool for school and like half a song in, he is screaming the words, he's belting it, but the people around him are high fiving him.

They think it's great.

It was so sweet.

The amount of love that he felt from people around and the kind, the kindness, you know, there.

Hey buddy, you've been.

Your throat's kind of hurt.

Want me to go get you a water?

I'm like, oh, my gosh, these people are all very, very generous.

>> Doesn't that make that experience just so much better?

>> Yeah.

>> It matters.

>> It does matter.

And it makes it about more than just the music.

it is about the communal experience.

Whereas it sounds like for you, Hannah, when you go to see Radiohead, you want to hear Radiohead.

You understand it's not going to be 11.

>> Yeah, exactly.

most of the shows that I've seen have been the bigger shows at least have been a little bit more intense.

The the crowd is kind of like, you know, don't come into my space.

And I don't know, maybe it's just the genre of music that I like, which I, I didn't really grow up.

I didn't grow up listening to boy bands or you know, girl pop singers.

I did not listen to pop music at all growing up.

The things that I listened to when I was like six years old were like Nirvana and Green Day and grunge and like, that's what my parents listened to.

and the Rolling Stones and the Beatles and like, very rock and roll, like stuff like that.

That was maybe a little bit heavier for a 6-year-old to be listening to, you know I never liked the Backstreet Boys.

I never liked Britney.

I never really liked anything like that.

>> I got Hannah, you're hurting me.

>> Eyes.

Cover your ears.

I just.

>> Kind of grew up as, like, a little, like, punk kid.

>> That was.

>> It's a different vibe.

I mean, I got to tell you, like, I love Coheed and Cambria.

>> Love them.

Me too.

>> Been seeing them forever.

I have all his graphic novels going to the show.

I'm not expecting the warmth, the welcome that I'm getting from Taylor.

And that's just kind of the vibe that they give off.

They're you're there to rock out, and Taylor wants you to celebrate, or she wants you to sing along.

Goey doesn't care if you sing along.

I mean, they want you and enjoy it, but you're there and it's an individual experience where a Taylor show that's a group experience and.

>> It's so interesting that I imagine I. So I like Bruce Springsteen.

I want to see the movie this month.

You know, I'm not as hardcore.

I've never seen him in concert, but I've got colleagues and friends who will travel and will spend a lot of money the same way that Swifties do to go see Taylor.

Right.

So they go to see, I think the Bruce fandom is pretty positive, but I mean, I'm going back to Hannah's childhood, and I saw Green Day when I was 16, and they were I was, you know, I was like, not a very I was a very thin 16 year old, not made for a mosh pit.

And somebody goes to me and goes, hey, buddy, are you ready?

I was like, ready for what?

And he just took me and he just threw me into the middle of this pit, and I was like a ping, like a pinball just rattling around.

I'll never forget that.

Like, I got out of there, I was like, whoa.

But you know.

>> I'm alive.

>> But they're still playing.

And now everyone has arthritis.

And I think people are nicer, so I think so.

I think fan base is all.

I mean, not every fan base has the same vibe.

And I think your first discovery here is the vibe is strong with the Swifties like it's very positive and it's not gatekeeper.

It's not like I've been a fan longer than you.

So I'm better.

Yeah, it's like very welcoming.

And that's that's an interesting observation.

So now about the music.

I mean like you got to pick two of your favorite Taylor songs.

Let's see if there's any overlap here.

Pick two.

>> Ever or just off the ever I would.

>> Let's do both.

>> All right.

Off this album I would say ruin the friendship and the fate of Ophelia.

I know it's a single, but whatever.

and then I would say all time, probably August, and come back, be here.

>> Okay.

>> Two and two.

>> I mean, talk about an impossible question.

No, let's let's start with the album.

today's favorite, because they've changed, obviously, is father Figure.

That one's kind of kind of keeping up.

and then I, you know, what I like would.

>> I.

>> I also like, would.

>> You have to.

It's a bop, right?

>> It's.

>> A.

>> Bop bop.

>> Bop.

Okay.

>> I'm a red girly, so red is definitely up there.

>> oh.

Long live.

I'm going to throw long.

>> It's.

>> I have, I have the lyrics tattooed on me, so I'm going to have to throw out.

Long live.

>> You have those lyrics tattooed on you.

You don't have to show us, but that's okay.

Okay.

I have.

>> Five Taylor tattoos.

I'm very proud of them.

>> Whoa.

>> Goals, Maddie.

>> I mean, she's got you there again.

It's not a competition.

As we found out with Swifties, right?

But that's very impressive.

All right.

Two and two.

Two songs from the current album.

Two songs of all time.

>> So for the current album, I would say I'm a big fan of Opalite.

I think a lot of people are.

And then I'm kind of caught between Fate of Ophelia and Wood.

because I think they're both,, just sort of campy and brilliant in their own way.

and overall, I would say I love Red so all too well, but specifically the ten minute version, I will not listen to the regular one.

>> It's the only version.

>> Yeah, I can recite the whole thing verbatim.

but I would say enchanted is probably one of my favorite songs of all time.

it's just so beautiful.

>> So there's a range and this is.

I was wondering if wood would come up.

So we're not going to spend the hour on wood, but I would say two things here.

You said you yourself, Hannah is not a swiftie.

You like it?

It's a bop.

>> It's fine.

>> Yeah.

>> It.

>> Is.

It's fun.

it's not just about that thing that people talk about.

It's.

It's a song about realizing you don't have to rely on luck.

You don't have to keep hoping for unlikely things that you actually found what you were looking for.

And it's pretty darn good.

And that's pretty cool.

it is also about Travis Kelsey's genitals.

>> So it's it's about two things.

>> And so what I wanted to ask you was a different question that I want to ask them about this song.

But for you, as someone who's into music, not huge into Taylor, was this an indication that, like, all right, we're jumping the shark here.

Like, are we really going to write this song?

We're going to put it out there or it's like, no, that's daring.

She's she's that happy and she doesn't care.

And that's her way of kind of winking at the critics saying like, yeah, I'm gonna write, we're gonna put this out there.

>> So I didn't really pick up on the Travis Kelce reference right away.

I was just listening to the sound of it, which I think is kind of how I do most of my listening for music.

Like, I'm going to know in the first 30s whether I like the song or not.

And with that one, I was like, there were some songs on the album that I was like, no skip.

Like after 30s, I just like went to the next one because I was researching for this specifically.

I don't know if I would have listened to the whole thing if I, if we weren't doing this right now, but would caught me.

I was like, oh, this is a good song.

Like it's catchy.

I like the hook.

I like the sound of it.

I do think that the album overall is it feels a little bit like a like a teenager who's living on her own for the first time and kind of giving the middle finger to everyone and being like, I'm on my own.

I'm going to, like, use swear words and it feels a little bit like that to me.

>> So what if you think I can't do this, I'm going to.

>> Do it.

>> Yes, that as far as the lyrics go, I got kind of that energy, which I'm not a huge fan of, but after learning about the second meaning of relating to Travis Kelce, I actually think that that is hilarious.

And I love that, that if that's true, I don't know if she's said that.

>> That's what Travis Kelce.

>> Himself has said it on the podcast.

>> Okay.

>> Actually, he tried to coyly deny deny it, and his brother said, at least be glad that the reference to you is Redwood.

For me, it would be like shrub.

>> Oh my God.

Japanese, Japanese, Japanese, maple.

And I. will say.

>> You know, if I graduated from he didn't measure up in any measure of a man in the smallest man that ever lived to a redwood tree.

If I made that upgrade, I'd write a song about it.

>> Oh my God, alive.

So.

Okay, but here's what I want to ask the Swifties about this.

You've just gotten through saying that the community is so beautiful and big and welcoming, and it involves a lot of people who've grown up with Taylor, people who are adults, but also your kids and a lot of kids.

And there's a lot of, you know, like ten, 12, 14-year-old girls who are going to be hearing that song.

And I'm not trying to be like the Pollyanna guy, you know, are we uncomfortable at all with that?

Sarah?

>> No.

>> You know what?

I have a swiftie.

I have a little ten year old.

She went to the E.R.

tour, loves her.

All I'm going to say is thank God for the clean version.

And we took her to the movie and they played it and everything is appropriate.

And I didn't have to walk out there and explain anything to her.

>> But you don't think her friends are going to be like, do you know what this is actually about?

>> Hey, you know what I mean.

She may they may but I, my fellow Swiftie moms are showing the clean version.

And if it comes out and they talk about it, it is what it is.

I do get that vibe, though.

What you were mentioning, where she kind of was like, oh, I can swear now.

>> I can.

>> Do this.

Yeah, but I'm going to say at 35 years old, she has been under a microscope.

I mean, she didn't start really swearing.

I think she said like the sh word on red like once.

And you kind of see this graph going up like she is kind of pushing the boundaries each and every time.

And finally she's like, you know what?

I am happy, I don't care.

This is what I want to write about and how I want to write.

But, you know, at 35, she's doing that thing that like, what's her name?

Miley Cyrus did when she had that era.

>> With Wrecking Ball and.

>> Yeah, but.

>> You know, she did it at like what we think is to be an appropriate age.

Taylor's just kind of doing it at 35 on her own timeline.

>> Yeah, I was thinking that when I was listening to it, because Taylor and I are the same age, and I kind of felt bad for her, honestly, while I was listening to it, like you were saying, it felt like she was having this 21-year-old or like a 23 year old moment where she was like under, you know, the Disney microscope for so long and having to be so clean and, you know, make sure that it's okay for kids to listen to her music, et cetera., et cetera.

it does feel like now she's trying to be like, you know what?

I'm just going to do whatever I want and everyone's gonna have to deal with it.

They'll play the clean versions, whatever.

But I felt kind of bad because she's 35, you know, she's a grown woman.

And to only just be getting there now, like I know that she has a lot of you know, she has a lot going for her.

She has a lot of money.

She has a lot of options for her and her career.

And she's very famous.

But I can't imagine how that could be really, really difficult to live with.

>> Well, if you ask my mom, it's because she's been hanging out with Sabrina Carpenter too.

>> Much, and.

>> She thinks that.

>> That might.

>> Be a little bit of a bad influence.

I love Sabrina, I love her to death.

>> It's been a great.

>> My mom is concerned about the friendship.

>> Musically.

>> So elaborate on that.

There.

Madi Russell it's been a great year.

So you love Sabrina Carpenter.

>> Yes.

>> And to see Sabrina guesting with Taylor Swift is like.

>> Oh yeah, there's a phrase called Tay Daughters, which refers to like young artists that she's kind of mentored.

So this was sort of establishing Sabrina as the number one Tay Daughter.

And I love that both of them have put out pop albums this year that have been controversial.

And the reason why they've been controversial.

some of the biggest critiques are the expression of women's sexuality.

And, you know, Sabrina was also under the Disney microscope at the beginning of her last tour, they were definitely narrowing in and saying, how could I take my children to this?

You're supposed to be Disney Channel, and to that point, you know, men get away with talking about anything, and sometimes they have very violent.

>> Language.

>> Yeah, very violent language when describing women.

But when a woman does it to herself, it's, you know, it's a pearl clutching moment.

And I do agree, definitely about playing the clean versions.

But when I was a kid, I also kind of grew up with listening to what my parents listened to, having the same interests.

I saw rent when I was like ten.

and instead of like, shielding me from those themes, my parents sat me down and said, like, this is what this show is about.

These are the big, the big things that are happening in real life.

so I think obviously playing the clean version is a good thing.

But if you know, a kid comes and asks questions like, well, what does this mean?

What does that mean?

I think it's better to really sit down and have that discussion with them.

>> Well, and again, I don't want to I don't want to.

Pearl clutch either.

Here.

I honestly the answer is pretty straightforward.

It's like she's an artist who has a healthy sexual relationship with her partner, and it's something that gives her happiness and pleasure.

And that is part of life.

Like that's a pretty straightforward answer, right?

Yeah.

I mean, I don't think that's complicated, but what does make it complicated is when you've had a career that's this long.

So now hers is going on two decades.

So a lot of her fans who were in their teenage years when they found Taylor, are now having teenagers and having young daughters, having ten year olds.

And so it's like, is the music for the parents?

Is it for the kids?

And does she need to explain?

Or maybe she doesn't.

Maybe.

Maybe it doesn't matter.

I guess I go back to Geo if you like it or if it was cringe.

Was it like, okay, be happy, have that relationship.

But it's cringe to say this.

Or do you agree with Hannah?

Like that's kind of subversive and like, that's funny.

Like that's just good for her.

>> I think the crunchiness on this album did not have to do with her talking about her sexual relationship with Travis.

>> But there was crunchiness.

>> I think.

>> So, oh.

Let's hear it.

And this is from the Swifties, and.

>> I think it was intentional crunchiness too.

That's one thing.

>> But that's different.

Ironic crunchiness is different than actual cringe.

What are you saying?

>> Well, there were a few songs.

father figure and what's the song after?

Father, eldest daughter.

When she's talking about being savage and uncancelled, which I love.

Canceled.

And some of my friends have canceled me for liking the song.

Canceled.

but there's a.

>> Song I can sing.

>> Yeah, there's a few lyrics in there that are just so, like, tied to social media that it's, like, hard to escape it when you're listening to it.

>> Tied to social media, like, like like she's so.

>> She, like.

>> Infected.

Addicted.

>> No.

Like one.

Well, okay, I have two answers to that.

one of the lyrics in canceled is did you girlboss too close to the sun, which is a TikTok social media.

You know, like.

>> Yeah.

>> Oh, I can answer this one too.

That is what Candace Owens said about her.

>> Well, there.

>> We go.

Lively.

So it's a kind of a dig at.

>> Cannot explain the cringe.

>> Okay, now I'm with Geo.

If you are a ignore Candace Owens, who cares what Candace Owens thinks?

Candace Owens is in your.

>> Head.

>> You're Taylor Swift like you, you do have it all, and you can write.

Interesting.

We're going to talk more in our second half hour about, you know, whether it's harder to write and create good art if you're truly happy.

I would argue it is not at all impossible to create great art.

If you're happy.

But I do think it's weird to get caught up in what Candace Owens of all people is saying.

Like, come on.

>> Yeah, I think that song kind of addresses multiple people.

when she was describing the writing process during the sort of documentary that she put out for the first weekend of the album release, she had said that the song is about the people who she kind of takes under her wing after they deal with what she dealt with, because for years there was just this ongoing smear campaign, not just Candace Owens, but throughout the media in like 2017 ish with Kanye West, Kim Kardashian.

People were delighted by her downfall.

Hashtag Taylor Swift is over party.

So the song is really about, you know, people who reach out to her and say, you know, they're going after me.

I made a mistake.

Or in some cases like in the case of Sophie Turner, who was in Game of Thrones, Taylor let her and her children stay in one of her properties during a really brutal divorce.

And Sophie was smeared as an unfit mother for having postpartum depression.

So that's kind of just an example of her saying, hey, like, welcome to my underworld.

Welcome to my life.

Let me I. do like help you figure out.

Yeah, like how to navigate this.

And she's just sort of saying, this is what people say about me.

And now they're saying it about you.

Let me help.

>> Okay?

And again, I'm the outsider.

I don't know these stories.

I would just say I don't.

Is this a diss track or does this fall in the range of a distract?

>> I wouldn't.

>> Say so.

It's more of.

>> I'm supporting other women.

I'm not judging.

>> Okay.

All right.

Fair enough.

Because I think she's kind of beyond diss tracks.

But I also think, like when you when you write a song that maybe even be winking at a feud with Candace Owens, you're actually giving a lot of fuel to Candace Owens, who doesn't probably deserve it or need it.

You know, just like ignoring someone as a more powerful thing to do when Taylor Swift is talking about you, you're not going to be like, oh, she really owned me in that song.

It's more just like, yeah, I'm at the center of the universe again.

>> So yeah.

>> Like, let her have her experience with it.

Like, yeah, she is a billionaire.

Yeah.

She could just ignore it, but she doesn't want to.

She, she wants to.

>> Address it.

Also fair.

>> That's that's her decision.

>> And you know what?

She she leaves these Easter eggs.

She leaves these and she'll address it to a certain point.

She's going to leave this kind of cryptic message.

>> She's like jigsaw.

>> Yeah.

>> And.

Not something.

>> She has.

She has compared herself to characters such as jigsaw in the past.

But yeah, she wants to do it, like, let her.

I mean, I'm a little petty person, so I enjoy.

>> The little.

>> Little, little digs.

I can I can get on board with them.

>> Okay?

>> I mean, if Taylor Swift digs at you in a song, there is no way that you're not going to sell more product.

>> Absolutely right.

>> Whoever you are, whatever she's saying about you, if somebody hates Taylor Swift, they're going to say, oh, well, Taylor Swift hates blah blah blah.

Candice, whoever, you know, I'm going to go out and buy their thing.

Now call me a conspiracy theorist, but I feel like there is something to that.

Like, hey, Taylor, I sent her a text.

Really?

Candace Owens is texting Taylor Swift.

Hey, Taylor.

>> You know.

>> If you could please, just please, please just put it in a song.

I really need this right now.

You know what I mean?

>> I mean, like, that's the ultimate conspiracy theory that Taylor's actually in league with Candace Owens.

See, I want you to know that.

>> Now we're getting somewhere.

>> Anything is possible.

>> A shrewd businesswoman, I. You know, we can't put much past her, but you never know.

>> What we're going to do here.

>> Let me get Charlie's email, and then we're going to do is we're going to take our only break, and we're going to come back and we're going to talk about if the Swifties in the room think that this really is a departure for Taylor Swift in that the critics who say, well, she's happy now, she's got everything now, her art's more boring now.

It's not as interesting now.

She's trying too hard.

We're going to see what they say.

I don't think they agree, Charlie, says Evan, I find the so-called critics denigrating Taylor Swift's new music laughable.

Being in the music industry, myself and a published songwriter, I found that most critics are frustrated musicians who never found success and are left to poking holes in others hard work when they themselves can't even do what they're criticizing.

I will never forget the great John Mayall's fabulous response to the critics, who asked him how he could still write and sing the blues now that he was rich.

He said, I have a good memory.

Go Taylor been with you from the start.

>> All right.

>> Here.

>> It's from Charlie.

All right, Charlie, thank you for that.

Let's take our only break.

We'll come right back and we'll see what people think about whether you have to be a you've got to be having the blues to write good art.

We'll talk about that next.

I'm Evan Dawson Wednesday on the next Connections.

Scholar Jonathan Rosa is coming to Rochester to give a presentation.

But first he joins us on Connections to talk about how authoritarians, police hate speech or speech in general, what hate speech is and is not the history of the way language is used.

Demystifying language, race and more.

We'll talk to Jonathan Rosa Wednesday.

>> Support for your public radio station comes from our members and from Mary Cariola center.

Supporting residents to become active members of the community, from developing life skills to gaining independence.

Mary Cariola, Center Transforming lives of People with disabilities.

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Org.

>> This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

This is what Spencer Kornhaber, who reviewed Taylor Swift's new album, has to say about the album.

He says the fairy tale is over.

He says showgirl is the sound of an overworked and overexposed entertainer reaching the mountaintop to find something worse than disappointment, burnout.

That's what Spencer Kornhaber said.

So she's out.

She's reached the mountaintop.

She's successful.

She's now.

She's happy in love.

She doesn't have all the world against her now.

I mean, there's people who don't like her, but she's at the mountaintop and she's burned out, and she's not.

Creating interesting art is what he says.

So before our Swifties in the room, jump in at this I want to ask Hannah about this.

We've talked a little about this in the past, but I think that this is a common theme in criticism or just in how we create art.

And it's do you need to have angst?

Do you need to have pain to create something powerful, memorable, good as an artist in general, what do you think?

>> I think both yes and no.

When you do have pain, when you have angst, heartbreak, horrible things are going on.

From personal experience.

I've written some amazing songs.

In those moments, you know, just driven by pure anger or just complete heartbreak.

Those moments can fuel art in some of the most beautiful ways, but you don't need to be at that moment to continue to create your art.

you know, you can you can think of it more like probably like somebody like Taylor or I mean, even some of my friends that are just you know, touring and stuff, but nowhere near famous, like Taylor, obviously.

But where you're also working, this is a job for you.

You have shows lined up.

You want to create an album?

Let's just say I want to create an album next year.

Well, I'm going to have to start writing, like, immediately.

And I may not necessarily be fueled by some passion or something.

horrible that happened in my life, but I'm fueled by the fact that I want to continue creating art.

I was actually just speaking to Rosanne Cash.

She was on my show, and we were talking about how when you're younger, maybe in your 35 years old, if you will, just like Taylor and just like myself, you're creating music probably fueled by passion in some sense and emotions and whatnot.

but also you're creating things that you think people want to hear from you.

You're creating things that people are expecting to hear from you, what they've heard from you in the past, and also maybe even what's just like, hot right now, like country music is really hot right now.

stuff like that can fuel you.

And what Rosanne said was that that's what she did when she was in her 30s and 40s.

But then now she's in her 70s creating music, and she's she said to me, she's she said, I'm not doing it for anyone.

I'm doing it for me.

I'm creating stuff for me, fueled by whatever I'm feeling right now.

Most of it she was saying, or like past experiences and things like that.

You know, as you get older, you're not feeling those crazy heartbreaks probably as much or a little bit more subtle than a little bit more stable in your life.

But, I think people ebb and flow as they age.

When you're a teenager, you feel a lot more things.

When you're in your 30s, you kind of start to settle down a little bit, but something might happen that could trigger those emotional responses and create art from that.

but I don't know.

With this, with this new album from Taylor, it feels it feels like a work album to me.

Like she was like, okay, I'm gonna put out another album.

It kind of seems like a stepping stone.

Like she put out this album as a job thing, like, yeah, she's got all these cool things and ideas and it's it's an album that she's a piece of art.

She's creating.

But I feel like the next album that she makes is going to be a little bit more like there's going to be a little more passion in it.

>> So two other things before I turn to the rest of the panel, what I don't hear you saying is that you think it's impossible to create great art if you're truly happy.

It just may be fueled by different things.

>> Yeah.

>> And that there may be a more natural movement towards the creation of art when you are in pain.

>> Absolutely.

>> Is that fair?

>> Yeah, yeah.

I mean, when I'm in pain, what I want to do is sit up in my room and write a song or paint or create art because that that takes my mind off of it.

And I think that a lot of people feel that way.

and then when you're happy, it's it you almost like, don't really just like you don't need to take the time for it to get over the thing that you're upset about.

You can just you just continue being happy.

And it's almost like you don't realize at the time has gone by and you're just going to work and going home and eating dinner and everything's fine because you're not hurting and you don't have to find something to fix that hurt.

Do you know.

>> What I mean?

>> Yeah, no, I think that's an interesting way of putting it.

I think about in the 90s, I grew to like Toad the Wet Sprocket.

So they were like my, my 90s muse.

And if you listen to the 90s toad stuff, mostly written by Glen Phillips, he went on his own and kept writing, went through a divorce in his 40s, now in his 50s, he's back with toad, but writing very different stuff.

So if you listen to a song called Don't Go Away by Toad in the 90s and compare that to a song called In the Lantern Light, now you see the evolution of a human being and how they look at the a relationship.

What love is, is meant to be, what beauty is meant to be.

And in his 50s, that's very different than what it was in his early 20s.

What the extreme emotional swings of his 20s have been rounded into a feeling of comfort that comes from love later in life.

And it's just very interesting to me.

He's not trying to be his 20 self, and yet I hear some artists who won't sort of admit through their art that they are aging.

Yeah, that life, you know, they still want to be that 17-year-old, you know, kind of that badass.

I mean, like, it's like, why?

>> Yeah.

>> And I'm not saying anything about Taylor.

I'm just observing that human beings do evolve and change, and that should be natural.

>> They do.

And I actually just saw blink 182 and that was the vibe I got from them.

>> That.

>> They're hanging on.

>> They're hanging on as much as they can to their like 16-year-old selves.

And they're trying to channel that energy for the people watching them when it's like they should realize that we were all teenagers when they were teenagers and now we're not, you know, now.

>> We're again.

>> That's where I'm like, someone's going to tear an ACL in that mosh pit.

>> Exactly.

>> And my back hurts.

>> That have been doing this like this, like resurgence of the like when we were young tour, like all these bands that I mean, don't get me wrong, I saw when I was 16, 17 and I was there and they were fantastic, but it's kind of like when I go to see Styx, they're fantastic.

I love Styx to death, but they're like 70 or 80.

Someone really is going to break a hip up there.

And I'm.

>> Concerned for them.

Like.

>> I don't mind if for nostalgia's sake, like some people like if you want to keep playing the music, play the music.

There's all kinds of studies that indicate like we love.

We will always love the music you loved in your teens because those were formative years and you want to return home to them.

There's a difference, though, in like, we're just going to keep doing it because you guys love to hear it and we love to play it versus like, someone may get hurt here because we're almost 60 and we're doing a mosh pit, you know, like, I don't really.

>> Know what.

>> It's an aspect, especially when we think of Taylor and this album.

Like I think people confuse relatability to whether it's good or not, because, yeah, the songs that are stem from pain, from that heartache are relatable.

Everyone's gone through a breakup.

You don't listen to all too well.

Ten minute version.

Taylor's version, but and sit there and think about your wedding day.

You think about the guy that broke up with you on prom night.

I mean, that's just kind of that brings that nostalgia.

And no, this album doesn't have it.

But look at who she produced it with.

Max Martin and Shellback are not known for producing these nostalgic songs.

They're Britney Spears, Backstreet Boys, they're Shake It off.

Jack Antonoff and Aaron Dessner or Dessner.

That's who's going to bring you that.

Oh my God, that heart wrenching, you know, August or, you Know All Too well or any of these songs that just bring you to a place in your life that's so relatable, it just doesn't meet.

This album is a bunch of shake it offs for me.

They're fun, they're bops.

Are they going to live a life long and have the stamina that All Too Well has?

Probably not, but that doesn't mean it's not a good album.

>> And I have like two points to bounce off of what Hannah said.

The first is that the way she describes this album, it's not a work album.

She said she produced it during the Eras Tour.

She was flying to Stockholm in between shows to work with Max Martin and Shellback, and she said, once I started, I couldn't stop, she said.

I just kept churning stuff out.

She talks about how proud she is of this album.

so it's definitely not something that was planned.

and it's, it just seems like something she's really passionate about.

But I also feel like it's kind of a farewell to the showgirl, to the illusion of Taylor, to Taylor Swift, the brand.

And I think it was an.

interesting study and authenticity that we haven't seen.

in a while.

So with the song Eldest Daughter, when she's using this cringey language and saying, I'm not the baddest, this isn't savage.

She's using that outdated language to say, yeah, I'm not cool.

There's even a line in the song I've been dying trying to seem cool.

She's saying, that's this isn't who I am.

I'm not nonchalant and I'm not unbothered, and I'm not, you know, using my my anger to make money.

I am just like your regular, cringey millennial.

and I think that's something we haven't seen from her in a minute.

And so I feel like this album was kind of just she's stepping she's not stepping back because she says she's nowhere near done, but she's sort of stepping out of that persona that she has had to build, sort of the mirrorball persona where you break yourself into a million pieces to reflect other people's reflections and what they want to see you do.

This is kind of her way of saying, I'm done doing that.

I'm going to do what I want.

And, you know, those who will stay with me will stay with me.

And if you don't, that's okay.

because she's good.

This is me.

She's good.

She finally has someone who encourages her to actually be who she is.

>> I need to get a call from Jennifer in North Carolina, and then we're going to get Gio's take on the album here, because we're talking to Swifties, who definitely don't think that she can't still create great art.

They're loving this album, although for different reasons.

I mean, I do think Sarah's Point's a really important one.

You might just like it for the bops and that might be okay.

Let me get Jennifer in.

Connelly Springs, North Carolina.

Hey Jennifer, go ahead.

>> Hey, how are you?

>> Good.

>> Well, I just wanted to first say that I very much enjoy this album.

I'm 48 years old.

I'm an artist myself, and one of the things that you guys were talking about a little while ago was her use of explicit language in this album, and that really hit home for me.

I'm a mother of two daughters that are 20 and 18, and I raised my children to appreciate art, and that includes when artists use explicit language.

However, you know, I have a frame of mind that there is a right way and a wrong way to use explicit language in your art and excessive, repetitive, vulgar use that is directed at someone and not to express a feeling is wrong.

the point of art is to express how you're feeling, not to degrade someone.

And I don't see that with Taylor.

I see her.

She's a she's a fan pleaser.

She has put out work that she has felt her fans will appreciate and relate to, and she's now like you guys were talking about.

She's 35 years old now.

she's going through a whole new chapter in her life, and sometimes we got to test the waters.

And I think that's kind of what she's been doing here.

>> So I want to thank you, Jennifer, not only for the sentiment there, but thank you for reminding me to at least make the point.

We got to stop talking about Taylor being 35 like she, you know, is on her last legs.

>> That's not that old.

>> 35 is not.

>> That old.

>> She's in her prime.

>> I've had people say, oh, she's pushing 40 and still talking about high school.

I'm like, oh, my.

>> God, pushing 40.

>> Hey, that's not a bad thing.

Be she's absolutely not.

>> She's what's.

>> Wrong with 40?

>> There's nothing wrong with 40.

As a 40.

>> Year old.

>> It is a fantastic age.

>> It is.

>> A fantastic age.

Thank you very much.

>> Welcome.

>> so, geo art can be great, even if the the creator is, is generally a happy person.

Yes or no?

>> Yes.

And I do think as much as I was just dogging on her for the cringey language, I do like the way that she does it in this album.

The album starts with Fate of Ophelia, and she talks about how she was, you know, locked in relationships that she couldn't express herself to the fullest and how she can Elizabeth Taylor, she talks about how she has this love, and if she lost it, she'd go crazy.

Opalite these are the things that I've had happen to me in my past.

And now the sky is bright and beautiful.

but also, I think the conversation about talking about high school.

I love the way Taylor did it on this album with ruined the friendship.

You know, she's about she has the engagement ring on her hand.

She's about to get married and she's reflecting on that lost love, the you know something she couldn't put a bow on.

And I think that is just perfectly on this album.

So yes, I think she's able to express multiple themes on, you know, 12 tracks is condensed for a Taylor Swift album.

and I think she chose her songs wisely.

>> Okay.

Julie wanted to say that she wanted to know if you guys have any favorite lyrics from the new album.

She says she loves You'll Be sleeping with the fishes before you know you're drowning.

So that seems really violent.

Seems like a threat.

it's not a threat.

I guess.

>> That is a that is a good lyric, though.

I heard these are all coming back to me as you guys are talking about them and about the songs like Ruin the Friendship.

That was actually one that I did listen to all the way through, because there was a very distinct story there, and I felt myself getting emotionally attached to it.

>> I thought.

>> A Taylor Swift song.

>> Yeah, that was a good one.

and the sleeping with the fishes one.

I remember hearing that and being like, oh, okay, okay, Taylor, I see.

>> You.

I.

>> I love Father Figure.

I don't have a, you know, specific lyric that I can just pick out and say that I, I love it, I love, I love the album.

Like I said, it's a bunch of bops ruin the friendship.

That whole song, just because I love forever Winter off her Red album and seeing these two songs that tie together so tightly, tell more of the story of her best friend, where that song.

There's so many great messages in it of, you know, appreciating the time you have.

Take chances, et cetera.

I mean, that one is such a good one, you know?

And life of the showgirl.

I mean, how many great messages are in there of going for what you want?

And, you know, not really taking people's advice and doing what's important to you.

>> Maddie, any lyrics pop to you?

>> Oh, man, I'm looking at my notes.

>> Here.

>> My God, are they color coded?

>> They are.

They are.

>> I think for me, a song that really hits for me is Wish List.

and how she's talking about everybody wants something different in their lives.

Some people want to be a jet or an influencer, or to have a modeling contract or to play for a professional team.

And she's saying, I just want you.

And just that line really gets me because it's such it's so simple.

And it's so it's such a radical shift.

It represents to me her radical shift from her last album, where a song called The Prophecy where she says, I don't want money, just someone who wants my company.

and you'll notice that the S's in wish list are the U.S.

dollar symbol.

So this is saying, you know, I'm not.

I'm finally getting my my wish.

I'm finally changing the prophecy.

I finally have that sweet, simple something that I've been looking for.

>> Well, as we get ready to wrap here, you know, I do think it's interesting.

And going back to Sarah's point that, you know, she wanted to write a song targeting or, you know, making a point about other people.

And we might think it's unwise or whatever, but it's up to her and it it is up to her.

I do think there are times where we, either as critics or the public feel like if a person doesn't just step in every perfect slot that we want them in, that you know that we can control their lives.

And this is a this album is a reminder that that is not up to us.

It is up to each individual.

I do think it's interesting, Hannah, to figure out, as fans, do we think we know someone because Taylor's fans really feel connected to her.

They feel like she is authentic.

To the extent that you can be to be a billionaire, to be a global star, they feel.

I think I can say that this is a person who lives as authentically as is plausible, and that they respect that and appreciate that.

do we think we know people too much?

I, I always marvel when people are like, I can't believe I just found out this person votes this way.

And you're like, I don't think, you know, we don't know people as much as we know them, you know?

>> So I think Taylor does a really great job of doing that for her fans.

And that is something I admire in her as a famous person.

I'm doing air quotes, if you can see on YouTube.

because she makes her fans feel like they know her.

If I were her, that would scare me.

Because if you're out, your fans think that they know you, that they can approach you.

It might get a little too close for comfort.

I'm sure she probably has plenty of security guards, but.

>> I.

>> Yes, absolutely has to because she puts herself out there and is vulnerable with people to a point where I'm I'm sure we're probably like 80% there, like 80% of the general, the general public knows about 80% of Taylor.

I'm sure that there's some that she's keeping from people.

>> It's impossible.

And we should also respect the fact that we should never want to feel like we have to know 100% of someone.

That's not fair.

That's not fair to them.

and I'll close with this here, David, writing from Vancouver, Canada, says the Beatles did a good job of getting better all the time as their success got ever more extreme.

so he thinks, at least musically, he thinks the Beatles got better, even though they became rich and famous.

But let's close with this thought here.

What we think we want as people is a lot of people would say love and happiness and secure relationship.

And Taylor seems to have that.

That's one thing people would often say like, well, she's rich, she's famous.

There's a diminishing return, and there's a lot of good research on this.

We should want comfort and security.

Having the global fame and money for her comes actually with its own set of challenges.

I'm not at all saying woe is Taylor Swift.

I'm saying you don't know what people are going through.

Even people in that spot.

And I just want to thank the Swifties for coming on and sharing their love with someone because it's an incredible community.

And you guys way to rep it.

Gio Battaglia.

This is a lot of fun.

Always.

What are you going to go listen to?

Give me one Taylor song.

Going to go.

>> Listen to probably wish list.

I gotta listen to it again.

>> I was going to say message in a bottle.

Is that all right with you?

>> Yeah.

Sounds good.

>> See?

Look at me.

Come on.

>> Sara Eaton, give me one.

>> Oh, I'm going to go listen to Opalite.

I just haven't given it the time it deserves.

I feel.

>> Madi.

>> I'm gonna play Fate of Ophelia for my mom.

>> Oh, there you go.

>> And Hannah Maier.

>> I have one Taylor Swift song that I truly, truly like.

And that song is lover.

I think that's a great right.

>> I like the collective.

We all just did.

>> I don't know.

if you.

>> Heard Hannah just drop.

By the way, she was talking to Rosanne Cash, music director of the Route.

You really ought to hang with Hannah more often.

You're so good.

>> Yeah, thanks.

You're a real thanks for having me.

>> Thank you for being here.

And thanks, listeners, wherever you are joining us from.

We'll be back with you tomorrow on member supported public media.

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