- (female announcer) Production funding for Behind the Headlines is made possible in part by the WKNO Production Fund, the WKNO Endowment Fund, and by viewers like you, thank you.

- The president and CEO of the Memphis Zoo, tonight on Behind the Headlines.

[intense orchestral music] I'm Eric Barnes with The Daily Memphian.

Thanks for joining us.

I am joined tonight by Matt Thompson, president and CEO of the Memphis Zoo.

Thank you for being here.

- Thanks for having me, Eric.

- So we'll talk about all kinds of things.

You've got a bunch of new exhibits that you're working on raising money towards.

You've got some asks at the City and even at the County and all that.

But I wanted to go back in time a little bit because it sets the stage, I think, for where you are and many organizations are, - Okay.

- Which is five years ago you were, what, deputy?

You were a deputy there to the then, - Yeah, yeah.

VP, yeah.

- Yeah, to the then CEO, and we're in the middle of COVID.

And it was incredibly disruptive.

And when I talk about COVID I'm not just talking about the illness.

I'm also talking about, you know, isolation.

I think five years ago that the rules around you can't even be in public spaces together, might have still been in the same place.

Then there was also all kinds of societal things that impacted organizations dramatically and there's almost something of a hangover for.

That's big spike in crime nationally, including in Memphis.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

- Truancy and real impacts on students and schools and people being there.

A bunch of government money that came into organizations, nonprofits included, like yours.

And in some ways more money for some people 'cause they didn't have anywhere to go and spend their money.

And all that, and then inflation.

And so when I say COVID, I'm not just talking the disease.

I'm curious for you, five years later, where you all are as an organization and how much of a hangover you guys still experience off those things.

And then, again, we'll start looking forward into new exhibits and new projects you have going on.

- That's a good and complex question.

- Sure.

- Because like many it affected us in a great way.

And I would say the zoo was fairly unique during COVID just because we can't just turn off our lights and walk out the door and put a closed sign on the front.

So we still had to pay all of the people that cared for the animals, you know?

And most importantly, we had to care for the animals.

And our standards for animal care are extremely high.

We feel like we're one of the best at animal welfare and so the standards can't drop just because people aren't coming to see us.

And that's a hard thing for everyone at the zoo to understand.

They want to maintain it at that high standard, which of course we all do, and that's what we did.

And so that's why we were very grateful for some of the federal support that came in through the City because we couldn't have done it otherwise.

- I remember the conversations about, "Well, we're gonna have to ship some animals elsewhere."

- Yeah.

- I mean that, it's hard to remember sometimes how unknown everything was then, - It's hard to remember.

- How scary, how uncertain.

- Yeah, you're exactly right.

People would come up to the front gate and, "Hey, when are you gonna open," and "Hey, are you open," that kind of thing.

We knew people wanted to come.

And we benefited from that when we got through it and started to open just because we were one of the first things in the city that could open because we were outdoor.

But not only did we see that from people, but the behavior from the animals was very interesting.

That was another thing that we did an article or two on, because it was very noticeable that the animals noticed that people weren't there.

- Wow!

- Yeah.

- In what way, kind of looking around for 'em, - Yes!

Yes, yes.

- Going up to the gates, that kind of thing?

- They would look around and then when staff would walk, 'cause the staff spend a lot of time in the back.

So when we would walk around and this animals would be like, "Hey, hey, there's people, let's go."

You know, it was very obvious that it was novel to them to suddenly see people in the zoo.

- And so now fast forward, you made an ask of the City.

The City gives essentially $1.2 million a year as a management fee to the zoo to run the zoo.

You've asked for another $3 million, 1.5 from the City, 1.5 from the County.

- Right, you got it.

- That's separate from a certain amount of maintenance and upkeep and so on that the City provides all the entities in the park, really.

- Yeah.

- I think they valued at $6.5 million, there's probably some gray areas in what that is.

But you've got a $26 million budget.

- Yes.

- Less of it comes from the City than I think people probably realize.

- Right, right.

- Right?

As a City asset.

- Right.

- What would you wanna do with that new money?

And then again, we'll segue into this big capital campaign and new exhibits.

- Yeah, so we have a management agreement with the City.

So not everyone realizes that the City owns all of the property at the zoo.

So they own all the buildings, they own all the animals.

And then the Memphis Zoological Society, of which we're all employed, is the kind of the managing partner.

So we manage the property and run the zoo.

So we've received the same management fee from the City since 1994.

Thirty years, it's been a long time.

Our budget was very, very much, much smaller during that time and a lot has changed.

So as part of that agreement, the City helps maintain the facility.

You know, there's painting and some general services and that kind of thing.

But we don't have time to get into all of it, but there's a lot of deferred maintenance on the property and there's just a lot of work that remains to be done.

And so, it's really the operational support that we're looking to.

If we're gonna continue to be one of the best zoos, then we've got a lot of work to do and it takes a lot of money to maintain our facility.

Really, it hasn't been done to the standards that we need it to be, and so this $3 million will be for that.

It's for literally for running the organization.

- And so with your $26 million, I think I have that right, - Yeah.

- About $26 million, operating budget.

Again, separate from capital improvements and the new exhibits.

- That's right.

- Whatever that part in two different buckets coming from the City, the rest comes primarily from tickets and a little bit from sponsorships - Yes.

- And a lot from donors, I'm guessing?

- Yes, yes.

So when that 1.2 was decided upon, our budget was $2.83 million total.

It's now $26 million, and we still get that 1.2.

And so that is a lot of money to make up in, you know, it's mostly people coming through the gate.

So it's ticket sales and membership.

But then, private special events and food and beverage, you know, that's it.

That's how we make up the balance of that money.

But then the donor stuff though is more, and we have some amazing donors and some goes to operational support.

But the bulk of that has gone historically to capital.

- Yeah.

- So people hear big numbers and they see success at the zoo and see all the things that we're doing, which are unbelievably cool and it's been amazing to be a part of, but a lot of that has been building things.

- Yeah.

- So we also have to maintain it.

- And that includes, what?

Northwest Passage, the polar bears, back in the day the pandas, I mean, those kind of big exhibits and facilities come together.

- Yeah, yeah.

So our first master plan started with Cat Country.

That was the new zoo.

We were City owned, City operated for years and years and years.

We're over a hundred years old.

1906 is when the Memphis Zoo was founded, and it was City owned, City operated.

And it wasn't doing so well and some really amazing folks got together, formed the Zoological Society, and off we go.

But yes, the first master plan started with Cat Country in 1993, and then Primate Canyon, China, Northwest Passage, Teton Trek, ended with the Zambezi River Hippo Camp.

And that's, believe it or not, that's 2016 when that exhibit opened.

So it's been a bit.

- That's the last big exhibit?

- It is, that's right.

- And so let's talk about the couple.

You've got a, what?

A 15 to 20-year plan to raise $250 million, mostly around two big new exhibits.

Described.

- Yeah, so we've got a really, really amazing plan.

So the first plan built out roughly half the zoo.

And this new plan addresses basically the other half.

So there's seven projects within it.

There's two really big ones, we're calling kind of keystone or cornerstone projects.

The first one being a new elephant habitat.

And it's an elephant breeding facility.

So our current facility was built in 1960 and it's less than an acre, and so this new thing takes up the rest of the available space on that end and it's about 14 acres.

So it's elephants, rhino, giraffe.

It's a savanna concept.

So you're going on safari.

It's an amazing concept and we're really excited about it.

But African elephants are an interesting thing.

Their numbers are declining in the United States and there's not gonna be many zoos that have them in the future and so we want to ensure that Memphis is one of them.

So that's we're going all in on that.

And the other big keystone project that you mentioned is something that we're currently calling Oceans to Forest.

It's a big kind of rainforest aquarium, hybrid building.

It's indoor, it's all about water and how it supports life on the planet, but directly how water is important to Memphis with our aquifer and the river that we're on.

So really it's an interactive, very immersive, but also indoor facility.

Unbelievable, restaurant in it.

It's gorgeous.

- I'm trying to think, 14 acres, I'm sorry, back to the Africa exhibit.

The Greensward itself is about 11 or 12 acres, right?

I mean, just so people, 'cause I'm really bad at this unless I have a perspective on how big that is.

It suddenly occurred to me like, fourteen acres is massive big.

- Pretty big, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So it takes on, if you're familiar at all with the zoo, it's all the way north to Parkway, which is the elephant.

And then very far south to as much as the zoo property has, and then over towards Teton Trek.

And so it's actually quite a bit of land.

So when you're walking around what we now call our African Veldt, you see rhino and giraffe and zebra, that kind of thing.

And it's kind of a neat, I call it one of our trivial pursuit facts.

The backdrop for those exhibits is a big berm that's kind of a semicircle, and the barns are within that berm.

And that was built that way because I-40 was supposed to come - Oh, wow.

- Through the park.

And so that was for sound abatement for the animals living in, 'cause they were preparing for an interstate to literally be next door.

So that's actually a holdover from that era.

- Well, those exhibits, I assume, get folded into this new-- - It'll all go away.

- It'll all go away as it get's folded- - It'll all go away and it'll become...yeah.

- And how big is this, the Oceans to Forest, give or take, in terms of the acreage of that?

- Gosh, size wise, I don't know.

It goes from the end of Cat Country all the way to the farm.

- Okay.

- So it's a roughly an acre under roof.

- Okay.

- So it's a pretty good size.

- Twenty million from the state in the last cycle that they committed towards these capital improvement, or towards the Africa exhibit, I think, specifically.

- Yes, that's right.

- And you've raised $75 million so far towards that goal, is that correct?

- Well, we're close.

- Close, okay.

- So the $20 million- - Anybody doing fundraising, like, "Mm, no, we're not there.

[Matt laughs] We got a couple dollars to go."

- We're close, but we have a lot of momentum - Yeah.

- and the state had a lot to do with that.

And so that enabled us to move towards design development for Africa.

It's a very exciting thing.

That's a historic investment in the zoo.

We've never received anything like that before from the state, so we're very excited.

- Attendance since COVID.

Again, that's kinda why I wanna start there 'cause of all these ramifications of COVID across our country, the world, but, you know, the societal impacts beyond the disease or the virus itself.

Your attendance has been flat, give or take, a little down.

- Yeah.

- I mean, when you look at that, why do you think attendance has been flat and what do you expect from these new exhibits?

Is that part of driving more attendance next year?

- Oh, sure.

Yeah, our attendance pre-COVID was, It wasn't quite at 1.1 million.

And of course, COVID was awful.

- Yeah.

- It was in 600 something.

And then it bumped back up because of everybody wanting to get outside and that kind of thing.

And then it came back, but yeah, we've been kind of flat.

And I can't speak to all of the reasons, but I can tell you this new plan will bring people, no doubt.

I mean, if we've shown anything in our history it's that people come to see new exhibits.

- With attendance, I mean again, everybody's...

I'm not making you a sociologist here, but I'm curious what you see in terms of everything from people's habits change.

You know, my habits change and a lot of things I used to do that I don't do now.

That I don't know why, but they just change.

I stopped doing those in COVID and I didn't pick it back up, other things I did.

Do you see just changes in family dynamics or individuals?

Do you see screens being a huge, whether that's a phone or a tablet or TV?

You know, the competition you have for people's attention and their dollars, has that changed since COVID, or was it already changing before COVID?

- That's a really good question.

The screens thing we do hear addressed some.

And I know that we hear from teachers all the time and they're like, there is nothing like seeing an elephant in real life.

You know, smelling, hearing that kind of thing.

It's just not the same as a National Geographic.

So when kids come and experience an animal and can touch, it makes all the difference.

But yeah, I mean, it probably does affect it on some level, but I don't know.

It's hard to say.

There have been outdoor attractions across the US that have seen slightly lower attendance as well.

- Sure, yeah.

- And I'm not sure.

I know people are being very careful about how they spend their money these days, you know?

That's certainly a component.

- Yeah, and that's a balancing act for you.

I think I looked, and when my kids were little, this is not me complaining, I promise, but it's just, you know, $21 for kids now if they're not a member, is that right?

- Yeah, yeah.

- And $26 for 12 year olds and above.

- Yeah.

- So it's, you know, I mean, it's not any more than necessarily going to the movies.

I'm not saying that it's out of line, - Oh, sure!

- But it's not a small amount.

- It's not, and we think very carefully.

We've had some modest increases, but we never want to increase things.

You know, you think about going out to eat now.

Well, our animals, you know how much it costs.

Our animal food budget is over a million dollars annually.

- Yeah.

- And we order from the same people that restaurants do.

The Palazolas, thank you.

[Eric laughs] - Do you really?

- Yeah, we do.

And it's an amazing production and it's beautiful food.

And, you know, there's only so many places you can order bulk like that, right?

- Yeah.

- It's very expensive.

And so when you come to the zoo, you are literally paying to feed the animals.

It's not all a bunch of fluff.

It all goes directly to the operation.

- The pandas, I mean, this was a national thing where China, I'm gonna say this in layman's terms, sort of pulled back all, they were always sort of licensed or here with the permission of the Chinese.

- Yeah.

- All of the pandas were pulled back.

There're now a few who are, one or two zoos I think now have pandas.

- Two, yeah.

- There have been rumors that Memphis is maybe gonna get.

Can you break news today as we record this?

- No.

[laughs] - What is the status of that?

- Yeah, I can't break news, but.

So they were pulled back because it was the end of the leases.

They're 10-year loans and we had 2 successive 10-year loans.

They were older animals, you know?

And so they returned, and that was really the case with all of them.

Our pandas in our future?

You know, maybe.

We've got the exhibit, but it's a huge financial commitment.

It's a 10-year commitment, a million a year.

So it's a $10 million minimum commitment just to get them back.

And that does not count food, labor.

- That's $10 million to essentially the Chinese government.

- To have them, that is correct.

So, we have a lot to do at the zoo.

- Yeah.

- We've had a lot to build out and elephants need our attention.

The west end, which, you know, aquarium, birdhouse, all that stuff, needs our attention.

So we really wanna focus on the campus for a little bit, on some new exhibits, and then maybe look at pandas again.

- There is this balancing act.

I mean, I interviewed your predecessor, Jim Dean.

- Yeah.

- Yeah, Jim, who came right before COVID was here.

- That's right.

- And I spent some time with him and just, the whole building new versus maintaining.

So, when people have a really good experience with the exhibits that are there, but they also come for the new.

When you look at building tens of, well, you know, it's 250.

I mean, I don't know how much is going to new out of that $250 million-- - All pretty much.

- And how much is going, pretty much all going to new.

- Yeah, it's rebuilding old, but yeah.

- And then rebuilding old?

- Yeah.

- Okay.

I'm fumbling my question, but that's what I'm after.

For people who love to go do whatever, the one of these older exhibits, will that get love and care as part of this capital campaign as well?

- Some of it.

If you've been in the zoo in the last couple three years you know we've been doing a campaign called Renew the Zoo.

And so some of these, our "newer" exhibits, starting with Cat Country, are 30 years old now.

So we've been refreshing them with paint and graphics and sound and all kinds of cool stuff.

And so I hope people have noticed that.

But some of the stuff that will be redone, such as the aquarium, birdhouse unit, some of these things just don't meet modern day standards when it comes to animal welfare, safety, and that kind of thing.

So we don't have a choice, but really to redo or completely refurb.

- Yeah, and I should have mentioned especially when we're talking about budget stuff, City, County, all those kind of machinations that we're recording this a week ago at the time it airs because of my schedule.

So if things have happened it'll be in The Daily Memphian in terms of some of these things.

But again, we're recording a week ago as you watch this.

But you mentioned animal welfare.

You started at the zoo 30 years ago in June as a zookeeper.

- Yes.

- What animals were you working with?

- Seasonal zookeeper.

Whatever I could, honestly.

You know, seasonal zookeeper was just a kind of grunt work.

Digging holes and building fence, you know, all that kind of a thing.

I got hired on after that summer into Animals of the Night, which is still has a special place 'cause there are all kinds of weird creatures in there.

And then I had strong interest in animal behavior and still do, so I spent a lot of time with elephants as well.

- And how in your time has welfare and the treatment of animals in captivity changed?

And I'll say, I can remember going to the public zoo in Tacoma, Washington where I grew up.

- Yeah.

- And to think back on it, I mean, I thought it was great to see that lion and great to see that monkey.

It's pretty horrific to think about that they were in concrete cages with a glass front and some hay thrown on the ground, maybe a bar to jump around on.

- Right.

- I mean, it was a whole different situation - Right.

- In that specific zoo.

And I was in other zoos as a little kid and it was kinda similar.

- Yeah.

- In the 30 years you've been there, the expectations people have and the pressure you feel as a zoo in terms of the treatment of animals.

How has it evolved?

- It's night and day, unbelievable.

You know, Cat Country is always the one where people go like, "Oh gosh."

I remember the cat house, which is now a cafe, having cats in it.

Steel, concrete, smelled like cats, and how in the world, number one, can that be a restaurant now?

And two, you know, the cats getting outside into naturalistic exhibits, that's a really big deal.

And to watch that happen exhibit by exhibit and then be a part of that, it's been a game changer.

And so that's what we're gonna do with elephants and the rest of the zoo.

Yeah, it changes everything.

But, in addition to just the relationship that the keepers and everyone has with the animals, like, their care and to get them to exhibit natural behaviors as much as possible, I mean, that's their job.

Day in and day out that is what they do and they're really, really, really good at it.

So it has changed dramatically.

- I was reading a little bit before the interview on, I can't remember the name, but the national association of zoos.

I can't remember what it's called, about they're looking 20, 30 years out broadly speaking, and sort of a plan and the future of zoos.

They talked about some of the things you're talking about.

There're two that are really interesting.

One was the declining number of children.

Statistically young people are having fewer children, the rising senior population.

And I'm curious, is there a place where you look at, yeah, those demographics are changing and the zoo is an amazing park to wander around in and get some food.

I mean, do you look at those changes in demographics and change your plans at all?

Or is it still really primarily focused on kids and families?

- I mean, families, kids primarily still our target market.

However, we've seen a huge influx in it being more of a date, or we see a lot of couples walking around.

We definitely see an older demographic as well.

Oh yeah, it's really changed and we definitely cater to that as well and you can see that in our events.

- Yeah, climate change was another one in this national association.

And it sounds to some degree the environmental awareness that you're trying to do with the oceans to...I'm sorry?

- To forest.

- Oceans to Forest, is in part talking about those kinds of things.

- Yeah, yeah.

- Does that worry you that when you say climate change, there's a certain number of people on the TV who just threw something at the television because it's a political term and, I'm sorry, but whatever you wanna call it and whatever the science says.

How much do you look to embrace that in sort of the educational and awareness programs that you're doing?

- We're always looking to embrace.

'Cause whatever you wanna call it, the climate has been rather wacky, right?

And so I think that's relatable.

And anytime we can relate what the animals are doing in captivity to their wild counterparts, that is always our goal.

Always our goal, you know?

You talked about how zoos have changed.

Zoos used to be a menagerie concept, where you come and literally saw a single this and a single that and a single that in a cage.

And that has completely changed.

I mean, the amount to which we do and deal and point to conservation, I mean, it's now the bulk of what we do.

It's a huge part of our budget.

The stuff that goes on behind the scenes, literally saving animals from extinction, it's unbelievable.

And that is absolutely part of it.

But also, Eric, the wacky weather and you wanna talk about people visiting the zoo, we're an outdoor venue.

So when it's pouring down rain or it's raining sideways or it's 110 degrees, people are less likely to come.

So it affects us in several ways.

- I mentioned earlier just comparing the size of the new exhibit to the size of the Greensward, the Greensward update.

And this is where I always have to mind disclosure.

I'm a former board member and board chair of Overton Park Conservancy during-- - Excellent!

- Yeah, well, it is now because I'm not there.

[Matt laughing] And because everyone's getting along and there's solutions and so on.

But I was a board chair when it was heated and hot and everyone was disagreeing and not everyone necessarily showing the best behavior, me included.

Where are we now?

What's the update?

- Well, as you know, there's an agreement.

- Yeah.

- It's been slow to surface for a couple different reasons.

But the main reason was Senator Cohen, thank you, worked on a federal grant that was funding these moves.

And so that's been slow to happen.

The City is, it's coming through them.

They've also been responsible for, or are responsible for building out some of the changes that are gonna happen over at the maintenance compound that's part of the- - The southeast corner at, what is that?

East and North Parkway.

- Exactly right.

- The southeast corner.

- So we split the Overton Park Conservancy in the south part.

Anyway, there's a new entrance that's gonna happen.

And that stuff has just been slow to develop, but it's absolutely going to happen.

It's in process now.

It recently has sped up a bit.

So we're looking at trying to get it finished by the end of this year.

- Oh wow!

- Yeah.

- So that would, then, the moving pieces here, and I might get a little bit wrong, the moving pieces are the existing zoo lot has been restriped to allow for some more parking.

- That's happened.

- Then get a new lot over there on that eastern end of the park, the top eastern end of the park there.

That then allows you to start moving maintenance, which is kinda hidden along North Parkway right across from Rhodes.

- Right.

- So that maintenance can go over there - To that compound.

- And you get another lot on that people would enter off North Parkway?

- Possibly, yes.

- Possibly yes?

- Yes, yes.

- Okay.

Go ahead.

- It's a little less parking than we had hoped that it was gonna be in actuality.

So we will be parking folks back there for sure, but it's around a hundred spaces or so.

So we're still trying to figure out what's- - And some parking over off East Parkway or that'll all be maintenance?

- Off East Parkway, that'll all be maintenance.

- That'll all be maintenance.

- But we'll be able to move full lock, stock and barrel all maintenance activities over there, deliveries, the whole.

So it'd be good to get that out of that end anyway.

- And that's what you think could get done by end of the year?

Or just the development, the clearing of the area over the general services area by the end of the year?

- We think all of it.

- All of it?

- We're trying to move in.

We're trying to really push to get it done, yeah.

- Thank you for being here.

We've run out of time.

I appreciate it very much.

I appreciate all your answers to questions.

I was gonna ask you what your favorite animal is, but we've run out time.

You might get in trouble if you answer that.

- I would.

- Next time we'll have you bring animals like the old Johnny Carson.

- You should, yes.

- That is all the time we have this week though.

Thank you very much for joining us.

If you missed any of the episode, you can get it at wkno.org, YouTube, The Daily Memphian, or you can download the show as a podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

Thanks very much, and we'll see you next week.

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