♪♪ >> MARY: AFTER GEORGE FLOYD'S MURDER, NINE CITY COUNCIL MEMBERS PLEDGED TO END THE MINNEAPOLIS POLICE DEPARTMENT.

THIS MOVEMENT TO "DEFUND THE POLICE" GRABBED HEADLINES ACROSS THE NATION, BUT WAS QUICKLY DECLARED DEAD WHEN VOTERS REJECTED A RELATED CHARTER AMENDMENT.

IN HER NEW BOOK, "THE MINNEAPOLIS RECKONING," UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA SOCIOLOGIST MICHELLE PHELPS TRACES THE HISTORY AND POLITICS OF POLICE REFORM EFFORTS.

WELL, WELCOME, PROFESSOR.

WHAT ESSENTIALLY IS YOUR THESIS IN THIS BECOME?

>> SURE, THE CORE THESIS OF THE BOOK IS THAT POLICE REPRESENT BOTH THE THREAT OF STATE VIOLENCE, BUT ALSO THE PROJECT OF STATE PROTECTION.

AND THAT IT'S NOT JUST THAT THE POLICE, PROTECTS SOME AND THEY THREATEN OTHERS, BUT THAT IN FACTS THE COMMUNITIES THAT ARE MOST IN NEED OF POLICE PROTECTION ARE THE SAME COMMUNITIES THAT ARE MOST AT RISK OF POLICE VIOLENCE.

AND SO THAT CREATES AN INTRACTABLE SET OF POLITICS THAT MAKE CHALLENGING POLICE POWER REALLY DIFFICULT.

>> Eric: I WAS REALLY STRUCK BY ONE OF THE -- I SAW YOU DO A COUPLE OF OOM INTERVIEWS AND YOU BASICALLY SAID THERE'S NO CLEAR PATH TO PREVENTING POLICE VIOLENCE AND THAT IT'S COMPLICATED BECAUSE YOU SAY VIRTUALLY EVERY ISSUE CONTRIBUTES TO POLICE VIOLENCE.

THAT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE THERE'S AN ANSWER IN THE FUTURE HERE.

>> YOU KNOW, THE ANSWER I GET TO IN THE BOOK IS THAT, NUMBER ONE, YOU KNOW, I THINK THERE ARE MEASURES THAT WE CAN TAKE TO TRY AND REIN IN ILLEGITIMATE POLICE VIOLENCE.

SOME AMOUNT OF VIOLENCE IS INHERENT TO THE ROLE OF POLICE AND IN FACT SOME VIOLENCE FROM POLICE OFFICERS, WE ACTUALLY SEE AS HEROIC, RIGHT, IF THEY'RE SAY, INTERRUPTING AN ACTIVE SHOOTER SITUATION.

SO THE QUESTION IS, HOW DO WE LIMIT AND CONSTRAIN AND FRANKLY AS A SOCIETY GET CONSENSUS ABOUT WHAT WE SEE AS ILLEGITIMATE POLICE VIOLENCE AND HOW DO WE REDUCE IT, BUT WE CAN ALSO THINK ABOUT HOW DO WE REDUCE CONTACTS BETWEEN CITIZENS AND THE POLICE, SO THAT WE DON'T HAVE THOSE OPPORTUNITIES FOR POLICE VIOLENCE?

>> Mary: SO WHAT ARE SOME OF THOSE ANSWERS.

YOU SAID THERE ARE MEASURES THAT CAN BE TAKEN.

>> IN FEARMS OF THE REFORM INITIATIVES?

YEAH, SO I TALK A BIT IN THE BOOK, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A LOT OF EVIDENCE THAT IF YOU WORK REALLY HARD AT IT, YOU PUT A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF POLITICAL EFFORT IN INTO IT, THAT YOU REALLY CAN CHANGE DEPARTMENT'S POLICIES, PRACTICES, CULTURES, AND THAT OVERSIGHT AND ACCOUNTABILITY IS A KEY PIECE OF THAT, RIGHT?

SO OFFICERS REALLY BELIEVING THAT IF THEY BREAK THE LAW WHILE ON THE JOB THAT THERE WILL BE CONSEQUENCES FOR THAT.

BUT IT TAKES A HUGE AMOUNT OF WORK.

WE THINK ABOUT, YOU KNOW, HUNDREDS OF OFFICERS WHO NEED TO GO THROUGH TRAINING, FOR INSTANCE, AND HUNDREDS OF CASES THAT NEED TO BE REVIEWED.

AND IT IS ONLY GOING TO AT BEST KIND OF MINIMIZE THE AMOUNT OF ILLEGITIMATE VIOLENCE THAT YOU'LL SEE.

I DON'T KNOW THAT WE'LL EVER GET TO A PLACE WHERE WE REDUCE ALL OF IT.

WE ALSO HAVE TO GO BEYOND REFORM AND THAT I THINK S ONE OF THE LESSONS FROM THE DEFUND MOVEMENT.

>> Eric: YOU DO A VERY GOOD OF TRACING THE HISTORY OF POLICE COMMUNITY RELATIONS ND I WOONDER IF YOU COULD COMMENT ON THE FAMOUS OR INFAMOUS MINNEAPOLIS CITY COUNCIL DEFUND THE POLICE SLOGAN.

>> SURE, SO THE MINNEAPOLIS CITY COUNCIL DOESN'T FORMALLY ADOPT THAT SECOND READING EVERYONE, BUT THERE IS A VETO-PROOF MAJORITY OF THE CITY COUNCIL IN SUMMER 2020 STANDING ON THE STAGE AT POWDERHORN PARK AND THE STAGE IS EMBLAZONED WITH THESE GIANT LETTERS.

WHAT THE CITY COUNCIL ULTIMATELY GETS CONSENSUS ORGANIZATION ALL THE CITY COUNCIL SIGNED ONTO WAS A RESOLUTION THAT SAID NOT THAT WE WERE GOING TO DEFUND THE POLICE BUT THAT WE WERE GOING TO SPEND A YEAR AS A CITY REALLY THINKING ABOUT A TRANSFORMATIVE NEW MODEL OF PUBLIC SAFETY MIGHT LOOK LIKE, A MODEL THAT MIGHT GO BEYOND POLICING AS WE KNOW IT.

>> Mary: DO WE HAVE THAT NEW MODEL YET?

>> IN FITS AN STARTS.

CERTAINLY WE SAW THE CHARTER AMENDMENT IN 2021.

DID NOT REACH THAT 51% THRESHOLD.

IT WAS ABOUT 42% OF MINNEAPOLIS VOTERS VOTED FOR IT.

BUT WHAT WE DID SEE WAS THE SORT OF COLLAPSING OR THE JOINING TOGETHER OF A LOT OF DIFFERENT PUBLIC SAFETY INITIATIVES UNDER ONE OFFICE WHICH WAS ONE OF THE GOALS OF THE DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY.

AN WE ALSO HAVE SEEN A LOT OF INVESTMENTS, STILL SMALL COMPARED TO THE SCALE OF WHAT WE SPEND ON THE POLICE, BUT SIGNIFICANT INVESTMENTS IN THINGS LIKE UNARMED MENTAL HEALTH RESPONDERS TO BEHAVIORAL HEALTH CRISIS, VIOLENCE INTERRUPTERS INTERVENING ON THE STREET TO TRY AND PREVENT CONFLICTS BETWEEN ESPECIALLY YOUNG PEOPLE.

AND OTHER KINDS OF MORE HOLISTIC APPROACHES TO PUBLIC SAFETY.

SO EXCHANGE STILL HAPPENING AND OF COURSE THE DEPARTMENT IS STILL UNDER INVESTIGATION AND IN THE PROCESS OF NEGOTIATING CONSENT DECREES AND IS AT A HISTORIC LOW RATE OF STAFFING.

SO I THINK A LOT OF CHANGE IS STILL YET TO COME.

>> Eric: YOU POINT OUT THAT THE BLACK COMMUNITY IN MINNEAPOLIS IS NOT PARTICULARLY UNIFIED ON THE ISSUE.

>> YEAH, I THINK SOMETIMES IN THE PUBLIC CONSCIOUSNESS, THERE'S SORT OF THIS PERCEPTION THAT ANY COMMUNITY IS A MONOLITH, AND WHAT I SHOW IN THE BOOK THAT THEY AREN'T.

AND THAT IN FACT IF WE THINK ABOUT PLACES LIKE MORT MINNEAPOLIS AS BEING KIND OF EMBLEMS OF THIS TENSION BETWEEN COMMUNITY VIOLENCE AND POLICE VIOLENCE THAT THAT MAKES THE AMBIVALENCE ABOUT THE CHARTER AMENDMENT FROM A LOT OF NORTH SIDE REPS MAKE A LOT OF SENSE, RIGHT?

WE SAW A LOT OF COMMUNITY LEASHEDS WHO WERE SAYING, I DON'T KNOW IF THIS IS GOING TO BRING SAFETY TO UOUR NEIGHBORHOODS AND THE MESSAGE THERE WAS WE NEED MORE SAFETY AND THAT DOESN'T JUST MEAN POLICE.

>> Eric: ARE YOU OPTIMISTIC?

>> YOU KNOW, THE ACTIVISTS SAY HOPE IS A DISCIPLINE.

AND I THINK THAT'S IGHT.

>> Eric: THE MINNEAPOLIS RECKONING, PROFESSOR, THANKS VERY MUCH.

PRINCETON PRESS?

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

>> PERFECT FOR