AND WHEN IT COMES TO GENDER AND SEX IN SPORT, THE CONVERSATION CAN OFTEN BE FRAUGHT AT THIS YEAR'S GAMES TRANS ATHLETES ARE SUBJECT TO STRICTER RULES AND REGULATIONS THAN BEFORE.

THOUGH THIS MAY SEEM LIKE A RECENT ISSUE, IT'S ACTUALLY A TOPIC THAT GOES BACK TO THE 1930S.

IN HIS NEW BOOK "THE OTHER OLYMPIANS," HISTORIAN MICHAEL WATERS DETAILS THE STORIES OF TRANS ATHLETES WHO COMPETED BACK THEN.

AND HE JOINS HARI SREENIVASAN TO SPEAK ABOUT THE CHALLENGES THEY FACED.

>> CHRISTIANE, THANKS.

MICHAEL WATERS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

YOU HAVE A NEW BOOK OUT.

AND IN THE OLYMPIC SPIRIT HERE, IT IS CALLED "THE OTHER OLYMPIANS: FASCISM, QUEERNESS AND THE MAKING OF MODERN SPORTS."

WHAT'S INTERESTING TO ME, WHEN YOU THINK OF 1936, THE STORY LINE YOU USUALLY THINK OF IS JESSE OWENS.

THERE IT IS, IN BERLIN, BEING HOSTED BY THE NAZIS.

BUT YOU FOUND REALLY FASCINATING AN ALTERNATE STORY THAT I HAD NEVER HEARD OF.

YOU TALKED ABOUT THESE TWO ATHLETES, TRANS ATHLETES WHO WERE THERE AT THE TIME, AND THEY PUBLICLY TRANSITIONED.

TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE ATHLETES THAT YOU PROFILE.

>> YEAH.

SO I WROTE ABOUT ZDENEK KOVAC WHO IS THIS CORRECT RUNNER WHO WON GOLD IN THIS COMPETITION CALLED THE WOMEN'S WORLD GAMES, WHICH IS A RIVAL TO THE OLYMPICS IN THE 1930S.

HIS MAIN SPORT -- HE WAS ASSIGNED FEMALE AT BIRTH.

HE PLAYED IN WOMEN SPORTS BEFORE TRANSITIONING.

AND HIS MAIN SPORT WAS THE 800 METERS WHICH WAS NOT AVAILABLE AT THE OLYMPICS OF THE TIME.

THERE ARE VERY FEW SPORTS FOR WOMEN AT THE OLYMPICS, ESPECIALLY IN TRACK AND FIELD IN THE 1930S.

SO HE WINS GOLD AT REALLY THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF COMPETITION AVAILABLE TO HIM IN 1934.

AND HE SETS A NEW WORLD RECORD IN THE PROCESS.

AND, YOU KNOW, HE KIND OF BECOMES THIS LOCAL SPORTS CELEBRITY IN CZECHOSLOVAKIA WHERE HE IS FROM AND PERHAPS THROUGHOUT EUROPE.

AND ESSENTIALLY, WHAT HAPPENS IS AFTER WINNING GOLD, HE STEPPED AWAY FROM SPORTS FOR A BIT, AND HE SORT OF DECIDES TO WRESTLE WITH THESE QUESTIONS HE'S ALWAYS HAD ABOUT HIS OWN SELF-IDENTITY.

AFTER WINNING GOLD, HE STEPS AWAY FROM SPORTS AND STARTS CONSULTING A DOCTOR ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF TRANSITIONING.

AND HE HAS THESE CONSULTATIONS, AND THEN HE DECIDES THAT GOING FORWARD, HE IS GOING TO BE LIVING AS A MAN.

AND IN LATE NOVEMBER 1935, HE ANNOUNCES THE CZECH PRESS HE IS TRANSITIONING GENDER AND LIVING AS A MAN AND WANTS TO PLAY IN MEN'S SPORTS IN THE FUTURE.

AND A FEW DAYS LATER IN EARLY DECEMBER, THAT NEWS GETS PICKED UP AND IT BECOMES THIS REALLY BIG INTERNATIONAL NEWS STORY FOR SEVERAL WEEKS AND EVENTUALLY THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE OF 1936, A YEAR WHEN THE BERLIN OLYMPICS HAPPENED, ALL TALKING ABOUT THIS ATHLETE WHO TRANSITIONED GENDER.

SO KOVAC WAS THE FIRST, BUT A FEW MONTHS LATER THERE IS THIS OTHER ATHLETE WHO WAS A LITTLE LESS SUCCESSFUL, BUT SIMILARLY WAS ASSIGNED TO FEMALE AT BIRTH, PLAYED IN WOMEN'S SPORTS.

HIS NAME WAS MARK WESTON.

HE WAS BRITISH SHOT PUTTER.

IN MAY 1936, SO SEVERAL MONTHS AFTER KOVAC TRANSITIONED, HE TOO GAVE THIS INTERVIEW IN WHICH HE SAID THAT HE WAS LIVING AS MAN.

AND SO TOGETHER THEY REALLY CREATED THIS GLOBAL NEWS STORY IN 1936.

THAT SUMMER RIGHT AHEAD OF THE OLYMPICS ABOUT, JUST LIKE THE MEANING OF TRANSITION AND OF THESE CATEGORY OF MALE AND FEMALE THEMSELVES, WHICH I THINK YOU SAW THE PRESS TALKING ABOUT IN THIS.

REALLY INTERESTING FOR THE FIRST TIME.

>> WHAT WAS THAT COVERAGE LIKE?

IT'S HARD FOR US TO IMAGINE HOW THE WORLD WAS ALMOST 100 YEARS AGO.

BUT HOW WERE PEOPLE APPROACHING THE IDEA THAT SOMEONE WHO WAS BORN A WOMAN, WHO WOULD WANT TO BE COMPETING IN MEN'S SPORTS?

>> YEAH.

SO I MEAN SO 1935 AND 1936 WHEN THIS WAS HAPPENING, THIS WAS AN ERA BEFORE THERE WAS A CONCEPT OF GENDER AS LIKE THIS PSYCHOLOGICAL DISTINCT FROM BIOLOGICAL SEX.

SO WHEN THESE ATHLETES WERE WRITTEN ABOUT, IT WAS PURELY IN TERMS OF THE BODY.

BUT THE MID 1930S ARE ALSO THE KIND OF THE END OF THIS ERA OF REALLY VISIBLE QUEERNESS IN A LOT OF CITIES IN EUROPE AND THE IN THE U.S.

ESPECIALLY.

AND YOU HAD IN GERMANY WHICH IS RIGHT NEXT DOOR TO CZECHOSLOVAKIA, YOU HAD MAGNUS HIRSCHFELD WAS W.H.O.

WAS THIS REALLY PROMINENT SEXOLOGIST WHO OFFERED MEDICAL CARE TO TRANS AND INTERSEX PEOPLE IN THE 1920S AND 1930S.

YOU KNOW, HE HELPED TO BRING FORWARD THESE IDEAS THAT PERHAPS THERE IS A LOT MORE TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THE BODY AND WHAT WE CALL GENDER TODAY AND ABOUT TRANSITION.

THERE IS AN ERA WHERE EVERY FEW MONTHS THERE IS A NEW DISCOVERY ABOUT THE BODY AND ABOUT SEX AND SEXUALITY.

SO I THINK THE PUBLIC WAS QUITE PRIMED TO SEE -- TO ACCEPT THE IDEA THAT THERE WAS MORE THAN THEY GENERALLY UNDERSTOOD ABOUT HOW SORT OF SEX WORKED AND HOW THESE CATEGORIES OF MALE AND FEMALE WORKED.

AND WHAT REALLY STRUCK ME IS THAT A LOT OF THE COVERAGE OF KOVAC AND WESTON, THESE TWO ATHLETES WHO TRANSITIONED GENDER IS QUITE EMPATHETIC.

THEY GOT THE PRONOUNCE WRONG.

THEY USED SOME WORDS THAT WE WOULDN'T USE TODAY TO DESCRIBE THESE ATHLETES.

AND THERE WAS CERTAINLY A FAIR BIT OF SENSATIONALISM OF THESE ATHLETES AND THIS IDEA OF TRANSITION.

BUT THROUGH IT ALL I THINK THERE IS THIS REAL CURIOSITY FROM THE PUBLIC AND FROM JOURNALIST ABOUT WHAT IT MEAN TO MOVE BETWEEN THESE CATEGORIES.

>> TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT ANOTHER ATHLETE YOU WRITE ABOUT, HELEN STEVENS.

>> HELEN STEVENS, SHE IS KIND OF FORGOTTEN COMPARED TO JESSE OWENS.

SHE WAS PROBABLY THE SECOND MOST FAMOUS AMERICAN ATHLETE AT THE BERLIN OLYMPICS IN 1936.

SO SHE IS THIS TRACK RUNNER FROM MISSOURI.

AND SHE, YOU KNOW, IS A WOMAN -- THEY DIDN'T HAVE THAT FOR MEN, BUT WE CAN IDENTIFY THE CIS WOMEN TODAY.

SHE BECAUSE OF A CHILDHOOD ACCIDENT HAD THIS VERY DEEP VOICE.

SHE ALSO HAD JUST BIG BICEPS.

SHE WAS OFTEN SORT OF NOTICED FOR HER PERCEIVED MASCULINITY.

AND SHE BASICALLY IN 1936 AT THE BERLIN OLYMPICS, SHE IS ONE OF THE TOP U.S.

ATHLETES.

SHE EVENTUALLY WINS A GOLD MEDAL AT THE SAME DAY AS JESSE OWENS WINS HIS GOLD.

AND THERE IS ALL THIS SCRUTINY.

SORT OF IN PART BECAUSE OF THESE -- BECAUSE OF KOVAC AND WESTON, THE TWO ATHLETES WHO HAD TRANSITIONED GENDER.

THERE IS ALL THIS EXTRA SCRUTINY AND HEIGHTENED SCRUTINY ON WOMEN'S SPORTS AND ON ATHLETES WHO ARE JUST PERCEIVED TO BE MASCULINE IN SOME WAY.

AND HELEN STEVENS HAS ALWAYS SORT OF DEALT WITH THIS.

BUT IT REALLY COMES TO A HEAD AT THE BERLIN OLYMPICS.

AND THERE WAS THIS NEW STORY.

AFTER SHE WINS GOLD, THERE IS THIS NEW STORY PUBLISHED ABOUT HER IN THIS POLISH NEWSPAPER THAT ESSENTIALLY ACCUSES HER OF BEING LIKE A MAN IN DISGUISE.

AND IT'S NOT TOTALLY CLEAR WHAT HAPPENED.

BUT AT THE VERY LEAST, YOU SAW FOR THE FIRST TIME IN THE PRESS THIS IDEA OF, LIKE, EXAMINING PEOPLE TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT THEY SHOULD BE IN WOMEN SPORTS.

AND REALLY COMING OUT OF THIS MOMENT OF FEARMONGERING ABOUT THIS REALLY PROMINENT AMERICAN ATHLETE.

>> THERE IS AN INTERESTING CHARACTER YOU WRITE ABOUT KIND OF IT'S BEHIND THIS INTEREST IN FIGURING OUT HOW TO TEST ATHLETES.

HIS NAME IS WILHELM NOEL.

TELL US ABOUT HIM.

WHO WAS HE?

>> YEAH, SO KOVAC TRANSITIONED, ANNOUNCED THAT HE WAS TRANSITIONING GENDER AT THE END OF 1935.

AND LIKE I SAID, IT BECOMES GLOBAL NEWS STORY THAT IS WRITTEN ABOUT REALLY WITH THIS SENSE OF CURIOSITY ABOUT THE POSSIBILITIES OF TRANSITION.

AND SO WHILE THE PUBLIC IS KIND OF CURIOUS ABOUT LITERALLY HOW IS IT POSSIBLE TO MOVE BETWEEN THESE CATEGORIES LIKE WHAT ARE THE MEDICAL ADVANCES THAT SORT OF ALLOW THIS, YOU DO SEE THIS SMALL GROUP OF SPORTS OFFICIALS WHO HAD A VERY DIFFICULT REACTION.

AND THE MOST PROMINENT AMONG THEM IS WILHELM KNOLL IN 1936 WRITES THIS OP-ED, ESSENTIALLY ACCUSING KOVAC OF BEING A FRAUD AND DECEITABLE IN SOME WAY.

AND KNOLL SEEMED TO TAKE ISSUE WITH THE FACT THAT KOVAC HAD BEEN IN WOMEN SPORTS AT ALL.

KNOLL FOR BACKGROUND CONTEXT, HE WAS A QUITE INFLUENTIAL SPORTS DOCTOR IN 1936.

HE WAS THE HEAD OF THIS GROUP OF SPORTS DOCTORS WHO ADVISED, YOU KNOW, THE IOC, THE TRACK AND FIELD FEDERATION.

THIS IS A VERY EARLY ERA OF SPORTS SCIENCE.

SO HE, DESPITE THE NATURE OF HAVING THAT POSITION HAD A LOT OF CACHE.

HE WAS ALSO A REGISTERED NAZI AT THE TIME.

AND HE WAS REALLY AN ARDENT BELIEVER.

HE WORE THE BROWN SHIRT UNIFORM TO CLASSES, AND HE SERIOUSLY SEPARATELY FROM KOVAC, HE WANTED TO ELIMINATE JEWISH ATHLETES, ATHLETES OF COLOR FROM SPORTS IN GENERAL.

HE KIND OF HAS A TENDENCY BECAUSE OF HIS BELIEF IN EUGENICS TO PUSH OUT ATHLETES.

AND HE SAW KOVAC AND THIS TRANSITION AS IS SOME KIND OF THREAT.

SOMETHING THAT NEEDED TO BE WEEDED OUT.

>> TELL ME, FOR PEOPLE WHO MIGHT NOT BE PAYING ATTENTION TO THE HISTORY OF HOW THESE POLICIES HAVE EVOLVED, WHAT'S HAPPENED IN THE WORLD OF INTERNATIONAL COMPETITION WHEN IT COMES TO IDENTIFYING GENDER OR TRYING TO FIGURE OUT IF THERE IS AN ADVANTAGE?

BECAUSE IT SEEMS LIKE WE SHIFTED AWAY FROM KIND OF A PHYSICAL SCIENTIFIC MEASURES.

>> THE ORIGINAL POLICIES WERE LIKE YOU SAID.

THEY WERE JUST PHYSICAL EXAMS.

THEY WOULD STRIP TEST WOMEN ATHLETES.

IT'S NOT CLEAR WHAT WERE THEY LOOKING FOR, WHICH KINDS OF BODIES WOULD BE ALLOWED, WHICH WOULDN'T.

THAT WAS NEVER OUTLINED IN THE EARLY YEARS.

EVENTUALLY THAT RAN INTO A LOT OF PROBLEMS.

SOLVE AS SEX TESTING GREW, SPORTS OFFICIALS BEGAN EMBRACING A CHROMOSOME-BASED TEST, WHICH ESSENTIALLY WOULD TRY TO DELINEATE ATHLETES BY TESTING THEIR CHROMOSOMES.

THE PROBLEM WAS THERE ARE A LOT OF LIKE ATHLETES WHO WOULD PROBABLY IDENTIFY AS CIS WOMEN TODAY THAT HAVE MULTIPLE CHROME SOMES.

THEY WERE QUIETLY EXPELLED FROM THE OLYMPICS IN THE '60S AND '70S AND '80S.

THERE IS NOT A LOT OF BACKLASH SO THE POLICY SWITCHED OVER TO TESTING HORMONE LEVELS.

TODAY WHAT WE HAVE IS A GRAB BAG OF DIFFERENT POLICIES.

SO THE IOC, THE INTERNATIONAL OLYMPIC COMMITTEE, WHICH MAKES A LOT OF THESE OVERARCHING POLICIES, THEY'VE ACTUALLY SAID THAT THEY NO LONGER WANT TO SET THE TERMS OF ELIGIBILITY FOR WOMEN ATHLETES.

AND THEY RELEASED A STATEMENT IN 2021 THAT TALKED ABOUT WANTING TO HAVE MORE INCLUSION OF TRANS GENDER SEX WOMEN IN SPORTS.

BUT THEY LEFT IT UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL FEDERATION.

SO THE TRACK AND FIELD FEDERATION, FOR EXAMPLE, TO SORT OF GOVERN THEIR OWN GROUP OF SPORTS SIMPLY.

AND WHAT HAS HAPPENED IS THAT.

IN A LOT OF CASES, THESE POLICIES HAVE BECOME QUITE RESTRICTIVE AND HAVE -- NEARLY -- AND IN MANY CASES BANNED NEARLY ALL TRANS WOMEN FROM COMPETING IN THE OLYMPICS, ALSO HAVE SET REALLY HARD LIMITS ON WOMEN WHO MIGHT FIT ON THE SPECTRUM AND EVEN WOMEN WHO HAVE HIGH TESTOSTERONE LEVELS, THEY PUT LIMITATIONS ON WHETHER THEY CAN PLAY AND HOW THEY CAN PLAY.

IT REALLY DEPENDS NOW BASED ON SPORTS.

THE CURRENT POLICY IS REALLY DIFFERENT DEPENDING ON WHAT SPORT YOU LOOK AT.

BUT THAT SAME CONCEPT OF WE'RE GOING TO REGULATE LIKE WHICH KIND OF WOMEN CAN COMPETE, I THINK YOU CAN SORT OF DRAW A DIRECT LINE BETWEEN 1936 AND TODAY, EVEN AS THE POLICIES THEMSELVES HAVE GOTTEN VERY DIFFICULT AND THE THINGS THAT ARE BEING TESTED HAS GOTTEN VERY DIFFERENT.

>> IN AN OP-ED YOU WROTE FOR "THE NEW YORK TIMES," YOU MENTIONED THIS OLYMPICS THE SEX TESTING POLICIES WILL BE EVEN MORE EXTREME THAN IN YEARS PAST.

WHY IS THAT?

>> YEAH, WELL, I THINK THAT'S IN PART BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT THESE INTERNATIONAL FEDERATIONS, THESE SORT OF LIKE SPORTS ORGANIZATIONS THAT I MENTIONED THAT GOVERN SOMETHING LIKE TRACK AND FIELD OR SWIMMING HAVE ACTUALLY GOTTEN STRICTER ON ELIGIBILITY REQUIREMENTS.

SO IF YOU JUST LOOK AT TRACK AND FIELD, FOR INSTANCE, A FEW YEARS AGO AT THE OLYMPICS, THERE WAS A PATH TO INCLUSION FOR TRANS WOMEN ATHLETES IN TRACK AND FIELD.

IT WOULD INVOLVE KEEPING THEIR HORMONE LEVELS LIKE IN A CERTAIN RANGE.

SO IT WAS DIFFICULT, BUT THERE WAS A WAY FOR A TRANS WOMAN COULD THEORETICALLY COMPETE.

NOW THE TRACK AND FIELD FEDERATION HAS GOTTEN RID OF THAT ENTIRELY AND ALL BUT BANNED TRANS WOMEN.

SO I THINK YOU SEE SORT OF A SIMILAR STORY IN A LOT OF DIFFERENT SPORTS IS THAT THESE POLICIES ARE GETTING STRICTER, EVEN AS THE IOC, WHICH IS KIND OF LIKE THE TOP OF THIS GOVERNING BUREAUCRACY SPORTS STRUCTURE, EVEN AS IOC IS SAYING WE WANT MORE SPORTS INCLUSION, NOT A LOT OF THE SPORTS FEDERATIONS HAVE TAKEN THEM UP ON THAT.

>> THIS HAS BEEN SUCH A TOPIC FOR AMERICAN POLITICAL CULTURE WARS.

ONE OF THE CORE CONCERNS FOR PEOPLE IS THIS NOTION OF FAIRNESS.

AND IN COMPETITIONS LIKE, SAY, TRACK AND FIELD, IT'S LITERALLY WHO GETS ACROSS THE LINE FIRST, AND WHETHER OR NOT HAS AN INHERENT ADVANTAGE, PERHAPS BECAUSE OF THEIR BIOLOGY.

WHAT'S -- WHAT'S THE PROBLEM?

IS THERE A PROBLEM IN THAT THINKING?

>> THERE IS STILL MUCH FIXATION ON TRANS INTERSEX WOMEN IN SPORTS.

AND WE DON'T HAVE THAT SAME KIND OF DIALOGUE ABOUT MANY OTHER KIENLDS OF PERCEIVED ADVANTAGES THAT ARE JUST SORT OF BAKED INTO HOW WE THINK ABOUT SPORTS.

SO IF YOU THINK ABOUT SOMETHING LIKE BASKETBALL, YOU KNOW, IT CERTAINLY HELPS TO BE TALL.

WE'RE NOT TRYING TO REGULATE THE HEIGHTS OF BASKETBALL PLAYERS.

EVEN WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE EFFORTS TO REGULATE TESTOSTERONE LEVELS IN WOMEN, YOU KNOW, WE DON'T DO THE SAME THING IN MEN'S SPORTS.

AND IF THE IDEA IS THAT TESTOSTERONE LEVELS CONFER SOME KIND OF UNFAIR ATHLETIC ADVANTAGE, YOU KNOW, MEN HAVE THE SAME DIVERSITY OF TESTOSTERONE LEVELS AS WOMEN.

SO WHY WOULD WE ALSO LIMIT MEN'S TESTOSTERONE LEVELS?

IT DOESN'T REALLY MAKE SENSE TO GO DOWN THAT PATH.

THAT'S NOT EVEN TO MENTION, YOU KNOW, SOMEONE LIKE MICHAEL PHELPS WHO IS BORN WITH THIS REALLY SPECIFIC GENETIC CONDITION THAT GIVES HIM A LONG WINGSPAN THAT ALSO HAPPENS TO BE PERFECT FOR SWIMMING.

SORE SOME OF THESE MORE INVISIBLE TYPES OF ADVANTAGE LIKE CLASS EARLY ON IN YOUR SPORTS CAREER, WHETHER YOU CAN PAY FOR TRAINERS OR TO GO TO SOME KIND OF SUMMER CAMP AND WORK YOUR WAY UP IN SPORTS CAN REALLY INFLUENCE WHETHER YOU CAN MAKE TO IT THIS ELITE LEVEL.

AND ALL THIS IS TO SAY THAT I THINK A GREAT THING ABOUT THE OLYMPICS IS IT BRINGS TOGETHER A LOT OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE FROM A LOT OF DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS AND EXPERIENCES.

AND PEOPLE WHO SORT OF EXIST ON THE SPECTRUM OF BODIES, AN EXPERIENCE THAT WE ALL DO.

AND THERE ARE SOME THINGS THAT WE CAN'T REGULATE AND WE ACCEPT THAT WE CAN'T REGULATE.

TO ME IT IS QUITE TELLING TO SEE THE FIXATION ON TRANS WOMEN IN SPORTS AND INTERSEX WOMEN IN SPORTS SPECIFICALLY.

AND ALSO WOMEN WHO HAVE HIGH TESTOSTERONE LEVELS IN A WAY THAT WE DON'T FIXATE ON ANY OF THESE OTHER THINGS.

THROUGHOUT THE HISTORY, IT STRIKES ME THAT WE'VE BEEN HAVING THE SAME CONVERSATION KIND OF OVER AND OVER AGAIN AND OFTEN ERASED FROM ALL OF THIS IS THE ATHLETES THEMSELVES AND JUST THEIR HUMANITY.

AND ALSO JUST LIKE THE IMMENSE SKILL IT TAKES TO GET TO THE POINT WHERE YOU COULD MAYBE GO THE OLYMPICS.

THESE ARE ALL ATHLETES OF LIKE UNBELIEVABLE SKILL WHO HAVE PUT IN YEARS AND YEARS OF THEIR LIVES INTO THIS SPORT.

SO TO ME IT'S JUST A KIND OF UNTHINKABLE THAT WE WOULD THEN SAY ACTUALLY YOU DON'T MEET THIS SORT OF SUBJECTIVE EVER-CHANGING DEFINITION OF WOMAN, SO THEREFORE YOU CAN'T COMPETE.

YEAH.

I GUESS THAT'S SORT OF WHAT I'VE GLEANED FROM LOOKING AT THE HISTORY.

>> THE BOOK IS CALLED "THE OTHER OLYMPIANS: FASCISM, QUEERNESS AND THE MAKE OF MODERN SPORTS."

MICHAEL WATERS, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.