Myra Flynn: I met Josh Lowe at the place I'm meeting most people these days.

My kids school in Southern California.

Unknown: Yeah, our kids go to school together, and then we bump into each other at a park, and I helped you scavenge a mirror.

And I think that's how our friendship started.

Myra Flynn: On this day Josh is mentioning the day he helped me pick up a giant mirror off the sidewalk and bring it home.

I still have to hang that mirror.

Josh started opening up to me about what he does for a living.

Spoiler alert, he's a stay at home dad, but it was what he did before that, what he felt he had to do that kind of blew my mind.

Josh is a former pastor.

Emphasis on former Unknown: for whatever reason, in that season, there were a lot of issues in this church network that I was part of, and I was hearing the drama and the stories and and there's some crazy things, like infidelity, stuff like that, but there's something inside of me that didn't get tired of hearing the stories and didn't write off God or didn't write off the church, but it was kind of the opposite.

It was like the more I heard about the brokenness that existed in people's lives and in these churches, it almost spurred something inside of me to say, is this what I'm supposed to do?

Is this what I'm made for?

And so at 24 I started that journey becoming a pastor, Myra Flynn: but Josh's journey would get a little complicated.

Josh had more and more questions, ones that challenged everything he thought he knew.

Unknown: I think as a pastor, I couldn't go too far on those questions.

In the last year and a half, I've gone further into that, and I've sat more in it of like, is this really real?

Is the Bible really something that we can place confidence in?

Myra Flynn: From Vermont public, this is homegoings Today on the show, a conversation with Josh Lowe, husband, dad and former pastor at a multi ethnic, non denominational Christian Church, the former part, that's what we're going to get into today.

Josh felt called to ministry when he was really young, but as he grew older and his perspective on the church shifted, he found himself turning away not from God completely, but from the institution he once lived and Bryant, this is homegoings.

We're a proud member of the NPR Network.

Welcome home.

So welcome Josh Lowe, could you tell me a little bit about your life as it relates to church and religion kind of how it started, maybe with your parents and your upbringing.

Unknown: Yeah.

I mean, my my parents are Taiwanese, Chinese immigrants, and yeah, when they came to the states in the 70s and 80s, I think they got plugged into a church pretty early on.

And so that's the church that I think they were married in.

It's the church that I was born and raised in.

I think the biggest thing that I feel like my parents imparted to me was just seeing their rhythms and seeing their examples.

So I have very few recollections of theological conversations or moments when they taught me about scripture, even read me, read me the Bible.

But I have memories of going into my mom's room at the end of the night and just seeing her on her bed reading her Bible.

Or I remember going down to the kitchen one in one season when my family was going through a lot of stress, and my dad had a lot of stress in particular, and just seeing him sitting at the kitchen table with the Bible, open his head down and pray, and I think those moments marked me probably, or they definitely did.

They marked me more than anything they actually said.

But just seeing where they were turning in those places of need, and seeing that they were finding strength in this, I think that just established that baseline for Myra Flynn: me.

Yeah.

So, yeah, there's the God you turn to when things are going well, and the God you turn to when things are going really when things are really hard, right?

So you're seeing both, it sounds like in your household.

So around what age did you start to think, like, Hmm, like, I kind of want to take this away from just seeing it in my home and experiencing it via my parents, and I've got a little interest myself, Unknown: yeah, really a turning point for me was there's one summer is right before eighth grade, and my church was hosting this one week that, I mean, they're calling it a short term mission trip into downtown LA and so while we were there, you know, we were Volunteering in different organizations.

We were on Skid Row, engaging with people that are unhoused.

And, you know, I'm seeing things for the first time that I've never really seen before.

And then I remember there was this one moment while I was there, and I ended up playing basketball with this kid who was about the same age as me.

So we were 1213, somewhere around that we were playing basketball.

And as we were playing, he was telling me he was like, my brothers are in gangs.

My uncles are in gangs.

My cousins are in gangs.

I'm about to join a gang.

And I hear that as a 12 year old right from South Pasadena in the suburbs, where, for my whole life, I was told you could be anything you want, you could have anything you want, you could do whatever you want.

I'm thinking, my whole future is ahead of me to hear this kid in my mind throwing away his life in that way.

I was like, what?

And so I didn't know what to say.

I thought, Okay, let me beat him in basketball and earn some street cred, and then I'll be able to tell him, don't join a gang, and he's gonna listen to me.

And so I just put my head down, went to work, and I ended up beating him in that game, but when we parted ways again, his last words to me were just, this is what's next in my life.

This is just what it is.

And we parted ways, and I remember that moment marked me, because probably for the first time in my life, I felt like none of my blessings, none of my resources, none of my hopes or dreams could make a difference for this kid.

And I felt hopeless.

I felt powerless for probably the first time in my life to that extent.

And I remember in that moment, something inside of me just kind of rose up and was like, even though I can't do anything, but God, you have to be able to you.

You have you can do something.

You have to do something here.

And I remember that was the first time I turned to God and prayed.

And I have no idea what happened to this kid.

We actually went back a year later, he was not there anymore.

I have no idea what happened to him, but I still remember his name.

I don't remember what he looks like anymore, but his story still marks me to this day, because I think what it did for it did for me was it just started, it jump started my relationship with God.

And from that point on, I think there's different moments where God just became a little bit more real, and prayers were being answered and things like that.

And that's really the beginning of my journey with God.

Myra Flynn: Tell me more about what religion you chose, what happened after that, and at what age?

Unknown: It's hard to pinpoint exactly what what my religion is, because I grew up in a Chinese American network of churches that would have been Evangelical, so they consider themselves Evangelical, with evangelical beliefs.

And then in my 20s, I joined a church in Pasadena that technically was non denominational, but you get a ton of these, right?

You get a ton of non denominational churches, especially if it's a church plant, it just kind of means, you know, they're not part of a old historic movement, but kind of something that's, that's new.

And so there's a ton of non denominational churches.

And so that's where I was, that church would have probably also upheld mainline evangelical beliefs while also being open to the Spirit.

And so believing that God heals, or that God is still real in our lives today, that God still speaks to people and is present.

I think evangelicalism is complicated, because a lot of the noise you hear in our society today is kind of focused on evangelicals, and the connection between evangelicalism and the Republican Party and connected with President Trump as well.

And all those things are really complicated.

I think where I am now is the I find the labels hard, because you label yourself and you get, I mean, I think that's kind of what you're talking about earlier, too, but you label yourself and you get judged, and people assume they know who you are and what you believe already.

And I think with the kind of person I am, I think there's more new ones.

It really wasn't until age 24 I had come out of a season of working in parachurch ministry, and I think it was in that time that I felt like God was calling me to be a pastor.

There's a couple different incidents that happened, and one of the big ones was, for whatever reason, in that season, there were a lot of issues in this church network that I was part of, and I was hearing the drama and the stories and and there's some crazy things, like infidelity, stuff like that.

Like there's crazy things that are kind of happening, and I was hearing all the history and all the junk, but there's something inside of me that didn't get turned away by that.

There's something inside of me that didn't get tired of hearing the stories and didn't write off God or didn't write off the church.

But it was kind of the opposite.

It was like the more I heard about the brokenness that existed in people's lives and in these churches, it almost spurred something inside of me to say even more so I need to be present even more so I've got to see if there's something that I can do to help or to be part of seeing God transform these people and heal these people.

And I think that kind of was a starting point of beginning to wonder, you.

Is this what I'm supposed to do?

Is this what I'm made for?

So it wasn't, it was not an easy thing.

But just through all those conversations, I think it felt like God kept confirming, yeah, this is who I've made you to be, and this is that next step.

And so at 24 I started that journey of becoming a Myra Flynn: pastor.

You don't really meet a lot of people who are like, No, I have this direct relationship to God, and I speak about it outwardly.

I don't know why that is maybe because people feel like it's private, but it was really, really cool to like, just have you be so open with me, and at the same time, you know, there's this kind of perception of people who are this way, who do have this deep faith?

Who are, you know, maybe have worked in the church, or have, you know, a regular relationship with God in the church that they're, you know, a little insular, like this world is a little insular, like some have even called it kind of culty, you know, but you are such a rad dad.

I think that's why it was so I think, like, that stereotype was something that I was like, Oh my gosh, am I doing that in real time?

And so I wonder, yeah, I just want to put that to you, like, do you find the world of church and religion in God to feel insular in that Unknown: way?

I mean, yeah, it can be for sure.

You know, even as you're talking, I'm thinking about all the images we have on social media or on news of different Christians today, and it's complicated.

Even in my time as a pastor, I think I saw firsthand how you could have a pastoral team that didn't necessarily believe everything in the same way to the same intensity, or interpreted scripture, you know, in the same ways, either.

And so I think some of some of my own journey in that, I think growing up in South Pasadena, South Pasadena was was relatively diverse for the San Gabriel Valley.

It was probably one of the more diverse schools.

Our sports teams had a mixture of Asians, Caucasians, African Americans, Hispanics, right?

We were all diverse, and all the teams we played, they're either all black, all white, all Asian, all Mexican, like, you know, it's just is in that way.

And so I think even just starting at a young age, it was helpful just to be around different kinds of people.

The experiences of being in downtown LA, I think put me in in context where probably most of my peers weren't engaging with with that kind of community.

And I think a lot of that came into my life as a pastor, where I wasn't so much concerned with we need everyone to look the same way, believe the same thing, and fight for the same things, but I think just kind of focusing more on each person's journey.

Every person has their own history.

Every one person has every person has their own childhood traumas and beliefs and culture and all that.

And actually, it's when all of us come to the table and we bring all of who we are, that we see a fuller picture of God.

And I think that's probably a foundational theological belief that I carry is that if the Spirit of God lives in each of us, then, yeah, it's really when we all come to the table and share more of who we are that we get a more complete picture.

Myra Flynn: Well, how old are you?

Josh, if you don't mind me asking, Unknown: sure, I am now 38 Myra Flynn: you're 38 I'm younger than I am.

Yeah, but, but still, it sounds like maybe you were one on the younger side when it came to pastors, like in your community.

Is that fair to say?

Yeah, and so there, I'm also like, hearing a little bit of this, like, old versus new mentality when it comes to tradition the evangelical church, were you experiencing some of that?

Like, here's here's some, like, heavy tradition that's being, like, put upon me that I really want to change, or maybe there's some I want to keep and some I'd like to let go of, like, when you were a pastor, how did you navigate that?

I mean, Unknown: because I was at a non denominational church that was founded in I think it was 2003 I think the church didn't carry as many of these, like really heavy old school Traditions, habits, ways of thinking.

So I would say I didn't come up as much against what I what I know other pastors have faced, and what some of my friends have faced in some of their denominations at the same time, I think you could see clear divides.

It was like people over 50, the staff pastors over 50, tended to believe in certain ways about certain things, and the staff that were Myra Flynn: what were those certain things?

Just to paint them out for some of us, like people over 50 tended to believe what versus what, Unknown: yeah, I mean, on a more kind of honest, on a more simpler topic, I think the way that we would dress right.

So I think people over 50 were like, We have to get dressed up if you're on stage.

No shorts, no.

So open toed shoes, you have to look a certain way, sound a certain way.

Kind of you've got to be done up.

And I think a younger crowd in our church was a pretty good mixture.

Our church probably lean more casual anyway, but I think on the younger side, it was like, Nah, we want to wear sneakers.

We want to wear slippers.

Shorts.

In Southern California, gets really hot during summertime, we want to wear hats, you know, those kind of things.

And so even on that level, there's a different a different way.

I think we approached community and approached church, right?

I think on the older side, you did see a little bit more how we present ourselves is really important.

And I think on the younger side, it was like, we just want to find a place where we feel comfortable.

Maybe Myra Flynn: that's interesting.

That's, that is simple, and it's, it's a simple example, and it's not right, because it's about like, governance over one's body.

Unknown: Yeah, I think when I first had opportunities to preach, even in my mind, already, from day one, I'm like, I can't speak to a certain population, right?

It's like, they're too different from me.

They're not going to respect me, whatever.

But because I'm younger, like, let me target the audience that I can speak to.

So I would bring in.

I would talk a lot about movies.

I love sneakers.

I'm a sneaker head.

I talk about shoes, video games, right?

It's like, let me bring in what I can to engage a different audience, or engage audience in a different way.

I didn't feel like I had to fit in to what the, you know, senior pastor was was doing.

But then I had a big turning point in 2020.

I mean, our whole world was in chaos, and we could pick up any of these themes and spend the next hour talking about them, right?

But the political, racial, social tension that was bubbling up in our society, dealing with a global pandemic and social distancing, which changed so much of what we do as pastors, right?

Like so much of our job is being with people, and now we can't even see our people.

Now we're pre recording sermons.

Everything changed.

But there's one thing that also happened in 2020 that really affected me as a pastor in particular, and that was there was a mega church, pastor of a church in New York City that cheated on his wife during covid, and it was a big story.

And if you for sure, if you're an evangelical Christian, I'm sure you heard about this, you know, in that time, but it was a big story.

He ended up, I think the the woman he cheated with is the one that brought it to light.

He ended up confessing to it, and then was fired by his organization.

But then, as time went on, more and more details from that organization, just like the brokenness and the things that were hidden throughout that organization started coming to light.

And so it's just been a crazy turn over these last few years and a crazy story to follow.

But when that happened, it really shook me.

You know, it wasn't the first time that a pastor had cheated on his spouse, and actually, up until that point, myself and some of the younger pastors, every time one of these things would happen, we would get together and we'd be like, even though we can't imagine doing this right now, it keeps happening.

And so we've got to make sure that we don't allow ourselves to kind of fall into that.

And so when this happened in 2020 this pastor was on the younger side.

He was someone that probably, I think we related to more than some of the stories of the older pastors that you hear about, right?

And so I think that really, yeah, yeah, more like me, for sure, like he'd be the kind of Pastor I'd want to be.

Like the other guys, I'm like, I'm not surprised they messed up me, you know, in a certain sense, like he was the cool, hip one.

It's like, that's what we would aspire to be to a certain extent.

And so it just kind of shook me.

And I remember spending a lot of time just reading about what happened and sitting on it and meditating on it.

And I think I walked away from that season just with this thought of, I don't think he and even the other pastors and the pastor since that that have messed up, I don't think he became a pastor to one day get in a position where he could do something like this.

I think it was over time, just the compromises that he made along the way that got him to this point that he ended up doing something that he couldn't imagine when he was younger.

I think the power of it all began to kind of hit me in the face.

For whatever reason pastors keep doing this.

Like, that's like the national story that you hear, for whatever reason, pastors keep cheating on their spouses.

And I don't know if it's maybe the pressures that they feel or the weight that they carry, or if it is the power of that position that is facilitating something like this from happening.

And so I started just feeling like, I think it's it really is power that's perhaps the greatest temptation for pastors.

You know, say, I. I preach a sermon that helps you understand something about God that you've never understood before.

Or if I pray for you and you feel touched deeply, or I'm able to minister to you, or say, I enter in to help you in a time of crisis, in time of need, I don't think you look at me in the same way again, and I think that's what happens in the church, where pastors already, just by virtue of their position, are already put on a pedestal.

But even more so when there's this extra like supernatural touch of God, or whatever you want to call it, that takes place even more so you're already put up here.

And I think the power that we then begin to gain is, is can be so dangerous Myra Flynn: and intoxicating, it sounds like, yeah, so I guess, can you ground us in 2020 because you are bringing up some of the things that were going on politically and racially around that time.

It felt like the whole world was on fire.

And I'm curious how that was touching you?

Unknown: Yeah, for sure.

I mean, I think even more context, you have to also understand come 2020 I'm six years into pastoring now.

We welcomed our first child.

I became a parent in 2020 I'm in my 30s now, a lot of our older staff and older pastors have already left the church, and so by that point, I'm already, I think by 2020, I'm already the longest tenured congregational pastor.

At that point, there's the shifts in the church where a lot of that layer of just covering that we had before, when I was younger pastor, a lot of that is now gone, and I'm one of the people that's beginning to rise into that vacuum as well.

But I think at that point in 2020, I'm now starting to be like, actually, the church needs my voice and others voice, not not just mine, but it's like, we need more people to be stepping up and leading and figuring this out together.

And I think a lot of churches prior to covid, I think the model of church is like, come be a part of what we're doing.

Come into our space, go through our training school, join our community, come regularly on Sundays.

Like all these things were such a big part of our identity, and really the ability to form and shape people.

And then in covid, it it was like, oh, we can't gather in our church building anymore.

But I think one of the vision pieces I had for covid was, yeah, if we could, if we could be in all these areas, and if we could learn how to support our people who are in these places, if we could be a hub, you know, if each of these community groups was able to pay attention to the needs of those around them.

What would that look like, right?

How could we really support our whole community?

How could we support the different neighborhoods that we find ourselves in?

But then I think one thing that began to be a little bit clearer was just everyone was shaken up, right?

Like people didn't know what to do in that time on the one hand, and this is where it was hard for us as pastors, because on the one hand, we were hearing from some of our parents, of young children, where they're saying, This is great.

I don't have to stay in traffic one hour to commute to work anymore.

My kids are at home.

I'm getting more time with them.

I'm cooking more, eating more healthy.

I'm working out more.

They're like, this is great, like we're thriving.

We love this.

And then I think we had young adults who are like, we live by ourselves.

We have no community.

We feel so lonely and isolated.

And the heaviness of not just covid, but all the other issues we talked about were really hitting our young adults in particular.

And so even there, I think you could see this generational divide where it felt like the older adults were needing something very different than what the younger adults were needing.

They feel lonely.

And I really felt like and the team, our young adult team as well, we as a team, really felt like the thing that we need to do to help our young adults right now is to teach them how to lament, to teach them how to face the pain and the struggles and to really find God there, and to let other people into those spaces as well.

And so I brought that to the senior team, and I was like, hey, my my team over here, we're a 10 out of 10 on this.

Like, this is what we need, and we've got to go after this.

And then the senior team came back, and they're like, that's not what we're hearing from the older adults, right?

They're loving it.

They're thriving.

They don't they don't want to engage their pain and their trauma.

They're doing great.

We need to use this as a moment to, like, share the gospel or whatever.

You know, it's like, this is a moment for us to catalyze and push and and kind of move forward.

And I was like, I don't think our young people are ready for that.

And so essentially what happened was, I think the senior pastor said to me, he was like, Okay, this is where we're going to go to larger church.

But he was kind of like, I give you the freedom to do what you want to do with with your young people.

And so it's kind of like a both and, Myra Flynn: right?

I mean, like, I mean, I'm very curious about how to lament.

I mean, who would.

Need that, right?

Like the world just keeps going.

I think, you know, I'm I'm thinking, so this is around 2020 in covid.

But you know, if you're still a pastor in 2022 in Pasadena, you know is that where you were a pastor was in Pasadena?

Yeah, so it's right around the corner from where we live and where we are now.

You know, Anthony McLean was shot by a police officer as a passenger in a car, got pulled over for not having a license plate, got out, ran and was shot in the back.

And I remember that time very vividly.

It was really, really devastating, another devastating murder of a black man by police.

And also a lot of my Asian American friends, like really rallying and starting groups that were kind of, you know, a pita for black lives.

You know, Asian Americans that believe Black Lives Matter.

And I know you were saying to me earlier that predominantly your church is Asian, it sounds like and Asian American.

And so I'm just wondering, how did that 2022, time hit for you when things weren't just centered around a pandemic, but some of the reckonings, the social reckonings, the racial reckonings, how did your church want to show up?

And how did it actually show up in these Unknown: moments?

Yeah, I mean, Anthony claimed that was a huge moment in the city and for our church as well.

And even to backtrack a little bit, you know, in 2020 when covid hit, there's a lot of anti Asian hate.

And there was a pastor on our team that was was cornered while he was walking with his wife in a neighborhood, and some guy on a bike, on a motorcycle, started chasing after them and ran them into a corner and was shouting at them and stuff.

And thankfully, I think there's another car that was driving by, and the car stopped, and so the guy actually left.

And so we had stories like that, I think us as mostly Asian, American and Caucasian pastors, we didn't really know what to do or what to say, and the church as a whole wasn't really ready to go that much further into some of these conversations, and so we thought a good starting point was just, let's just pray for the family, right?

Let's just remember the life that was lost and pray for peace.

And it wasn't about taking a side or whatever, but it's just like, What can we do in this moment when our community is hurting, and then what this pastor told me was somebody, an Asian American person, told him, and was like, why do we keep doing this?

Like, why do we keep flashing people's names?

Like, what about the police?

Like, shouldn't we be caring about, you know, blue lives and this whole thing?

And then he said this one comment that that really floored me.

And he was like, Where was the black community when we were being targeted for the China virus?

Where was the black community when everybody was blaming us for covid, they didn't care for us, then why should we care for them now?

And I was floored by that.

As a pastor, right?

I was like, this is the kind of people that we've developed, right?

These are the kind of people that we've raised up, or our teachings, our community, our love, whatever it is, like, everything that we've tried to do with this church is leading to a point where somebody could say something like that.

I was like, This is crazy.

I mean, I think seeing the lack of compassion was shocking, seeing the boldness, right?

It's like, it's one thing to think that, right?

It's one thing to be like, why are we doing this as a waste of time?

It's another to verbalize that to a pastor of like, This is dumb.

The black community doesn't care about us.

Why should we care about them?

I love because that's who I am.

I love because God's love me.

And out of that starting point, I really do believe that's what changes people's lives.

That's what changes communities as well, when we begin to think about others, not even necessarily first, when we begin to think about others, even as much as we think about ourselves, that alone can shift everything.

Myra Flynn: Wow, Josh, are you still a pastor?

Unknown: So in 2023 I left the church.

So it's been over a year and a half now, and I'm not currently a pastor.

Myra Flynn: When did things start to not feel good?

Unknown: You know, all these things in in in 2020 began to reveal to me just the brokenness that existed in our culture, the brokenness that existed in our church, and even some of the dysfunction that was existing in our staff team.

I think it was late 2020 there's one moment where we had a staff meeting.

He was, you know, still over.

Zoom, we were still meeting virtually at the time, and the senior pastor says to us, you know, he had gone on sabbatical earlier that year, and he had come back, and he had come back to a very different church, right?

He left the church, and we were still meeting in person.

He came back to this covid reality.

And a couple of months into that, towards the end of 2020, we have this staff meeting.

And.

He opens by, you know, saying something, something to the effect of, I don't really understand what's happening anymore.

It feels like the things I'm doing aren't landing the way that I think they would, or the things I'm saying people aren't receiving how I want it to be received.

And he's like, I just don't I don't get it.

I don't understand this culture.

And as he's saying this, there's another pastor that actually texted me and he's like, Why does it feel like he's about to drop a bomb on us?

Right?

Because in 2020 a lot of senior pastors actually retired early in that time, because they're like, everything we've known about being a pastor has been blown up.

We don't want to deal with Zoom, we don't want to pre record, we don't do any of this stuff.

And they're like, we're out.

And so a bunch of pastors actually retired early, and knowing the senior pastor, I was like, I don't think that's where he's gonna go.

I don't think he's he's not thinking about retiring.

But then he goes on and he says to us, I need you guys to let me lead.

And that was his antidote to this, right?

He was like, in this space of, I don't understand what's happening, he moved into, I just need you guys to let me take the lead and just follow me.

And so I think what he was implying was, there's too many cooks, there's too many of you that want to run in different ways, and we're being split or whatever, and I just need you guys to all get on board and follow me.

And I think that was one of those first moments for me where, you know, on the heels of everything else that I had been going through, and the transformation I was taking place for myself, I think that was one of those moments where I was like, wait, what?

Because I guess to me, the logical step would have been, I don't understand what's happening.

So I need you guys to help me.

I need you guys to tell me what you're seeing, what you're hearing.

Myra Flynn: I need you help me understand, right?

Yeah, I Unknown: think that would have been my so actually, I legitimately thought that's what he was going to say.

I'm like, he's not retiring.

I think this is going to be that moment when he says, Come on in.

Help me.

Let's do this together.

I need you guys.

And so when it's not that, and he ends up saying, I just need you guys to follow me, I think that was that first moment that really shook me, of like, I don't know if this makes sense for me, and you know, and I would also offer in this like, he's not necessarily wrong, he's not necessarily bad, plenty of churches, plenty of organizations, plenty of families even, are led by this one person, and everybody else just kind of goes along, supports them, gets in line.

And so there's no way I can say that that's bad.

And I would even say there's biblical models of that kind of leadership, and that's how a lot of people understand spiritual authority.

It really is this top down kind of thing.

And so I wouldn't say it's bad, but I think that's what made more sense to me as I was growing and developing, even as I was seeing the church change is we've got to bring more people to the table to figure out how to go to that place we don't know how to go to.

And I think that was one of those moments, one of the starting points for me of like, yeah, this this might not be it for me, Myra Flynn: you stepped down from being a pastor, yeah, and I'm curious, what did that decision do to your relationship with God?

Like, where are you at in your relationship with God?

Now, Unknown: I think I'm still trying to figure it out.

I think because of, you know, all the things I mentioned, and all the shifts and trying to figure out time and responsibilities, just the time that I spend with God is so much less than than where I was before, even just not having a church that we know we're going to be At every Sunday is part of that.

So all these things, you know, have really shifted.

And I think for me, in the season as well, of not being a pastor, I've allowed myself to go deeper into questions that have always been there, but questions that I didn't go too far in, right?

So even as a teenager, you know, I think I had mentioned earlier, I I would ask those questions of, Is God real?

Can you really trust the Bible?

And I think as a pastor, I couldn't go too far on those questions, because it's like the next meeting, or I've got to preach a sermon, or I've got to go and minister to this person or pray.

So I just couldn't get lost in them, Myra Flynn: right space for other people's questions as a pastor, yeah, and Unknown: so I think in the last year and a half, I've gone further into that, and I've sat more in it of like, is this really real?

Is the Bible really something that we can place confidence in how do we interpret these things?

I've actually found myself reading more about the stories of ex pastors.

I didn't know how many there are, but apparently there's a lot now, and social media, you know, helps with that too.

And so more and more ex pastors, ex evangelicals.

Just sharing their experiences with their churches and sharing about their journeys with God as well.

And I'm just reading some of their stories, and I think resonating within a different way, but also, I think again, just sitting in that more than I think I could have when I was still a pastor.

Myra Flynn: What are you doing for work now, Josh, Unknown: it's been nearly a whole year now since I have been 100% stay at home, dad to my five year old and my three year old.

Are you happier?

Myra Flynn: Am I happier?

Yeah, Unknown: happiness is hard to quantify.

There's a lot of days where I'm like, what did we accomplish today?

You know, like, the benchmark is different as a pastor is easier, right?

It's like, I'm working on this project, or I'm preaching this sermon.

Like there's these moments of these climactic moments, and these, these moments when you can look back and you can evaluate, how did I do do we accomplish it, whatever.

And then I think also, just a pastor, your job is so social, and you're receiving a lot of that feedback, right?

People are coming up after a sermon, it's like, oh, thank you so much.

Like, this is how it spoke to me.

Or people are grateful for whatever it is, right?

There's a lot more of that appreciation that you receive from your kids.

You don't always get that, and it doesn't quite, I guess, scratch that achiever itch in the same way.

And so I think that's been one of the challenges, and also one of the opportunities of this season is for me to try and slow down, to kind of take that break from okay, I don't always have to be on the go.

I don't always have to be thinking about the next thing.

I don't always have to be working on some project or like, finding my identity and finding my fulfillment in my work and finding it in what other people think about me or have to say about me, which honestly is a big deal for me.

You know, I think starting as a kid like that, that was it.

It's like how I look and how people perceive me is so important.

And then, even as a pastor, right it's like doing the right thing or doing the appropriate thing.

It was such a big part of what I valued and and how I how I saw myself.

And so a big part of this last year has just been stripping that away.

And I think moving into this place of saying, right now, it's about my family.

It's about loving my kids and creating the safety for them to just be kids, and serving my wife and helping to set her up so she can succeed at work and not feel a lot of pressure.

And this is the best thing for me.

It's learning how to be present with my kids, to learning how to become a better father.

I mean, actually, one of the phrases that I've kind of been using over the last few months is becoming the father my kids deserve.

I think, now that I'm in this role, and I'm in the day in and day out, and you know, my kids are picking up my habits.

They're using my language and all that kind of stuff, like I'm seeing, wow, my fingerprints are everywhere, and I think even more so I really feel that weight.

And so I think for me, it's changed.

It's not just about like, becoming a better father, but when I look at my kids, I'm like, what's the kind of father they deserve.

That's the kind of father I want to be.

Myra Flynn: Thanks so much for joining us.

If you want to continue to be a part of the homegoings family, stay in touch@homegoings.co and subscribe to the homegoings podcast wherever you listen, take good care.

You.