(upbeat orchestra music) - This is a production of PBS Charlotte.

- This week on Unspun, the politics of big business.

Why do companies take sides in election campaigns and controversial issues, and what happens when there's backlash from the public and boycotts on social media?

I'll also have my top five potential conflicts of interest between politicians and business.

Unspun is next on PBS Charlotte.

(upbeat pop music) In today's America, welcome to the spin game.

Believe me, I know.

I'm Pat McCrory.

When I was governor and mayor, I played the spin game, I was played played by the spin game, but aren't we all done being spun?

Let's take the spin out of the world we're in here on Unspun.

Good evening, I'm Pat McCrory, and welcome to Unspun, the show that tells you what politicians are thinking but not saying.

In today's world, why are more and more companies getting tangled up in politics and social issues?

There used to be a line between business and politics.

Now, for many companies, the only line is the bottom line.

They want to connect with candidates who become decision-makers once they're elected, because policies developed by politicians can make or break a business.

So companies start to build relationships, and those relationships often start with money, campaign donations, super PAC donations, high price lobbyists, maybe even getting a job in the next administration.

It may be good for the bottom line, but what about the line between getting involved versus buying influence?

It's the same story when companies take a stand on controversial social issues.

Speaking out is seen as a way to win over new customers, but what about existing customers or stockholders or employees?

Does the company speak for them.

When the answer is no, well, get ready for boycotts and backlash from the public as big business finds out that politics and social issues can be risky business too, and that's why a lot of well-known companies don't like it when you poke around their political partnerships asking questions.

At the Charlotte headquarters of LendingTree, where I used to be on the board of directors prior to becoming governor, CEO, Doug Lebda is different promoting that progress comes from those partnerships.

He joins us now to talk about the political decisions a company has to make, especially when it's an election year.

Doug, it's great to have you here.

- Hey, it's great to be here.

I'm so happy to be on your show.

I think it's wonderful.

- So why is it important for business to have a relationship with politicians?

- Well, it's, I guess, pretty basic, is there are regulators who obviously regulate your business, and if the politicians and the regulators don't understand what your business is, what values, what type of culture your company has, then I believe they're more likely to make decisions without all the information.

- So how do you establish a relationship between a business executive like yourself and politicians at the local, state, and federal level, which all impact many businesses?

- Yeah, well, first off, I think you're hitting it that you need to do it at local, state, and federal levels, and even if it's just to get to get to know people, I remember when I came and you were mayor of Charlotte in 1997, I just picked up the phone and called the mayor, and you answered my call and actually listened to me, and I think the more that if you're in the political sphere, and you're talking to business leaders, who are your constituents, you're gonna be better informed to make those decisions that need to get made, and I love the notion of informed political leaders who are making the right decision for the best things for our citizens.

- So one of the difficult jobs I think all people in business is that you get a lot of requests for donations from Republicans, Democrats, Independents, at all levels of government.

How do you process that as a company and also as an individual executive?

How do you process these?

I mean, it could bankrupt you after a while getting all these mailings and phone calls and everything else.

- Yeah, so first off, I operate on the feeling that I wish our political leaders did not have to spend a lot of their time dialing for dollars, and at the same time, it also forces good conversations that I believe most political leaders would have with their constituents of any stripe at any time, and so I'd encourage people to reach out.

What we try to do is make it very issues-oriented and make sure that I'm there or we're there.

Also, make sure that my own political views I'm allowed to have that, in 90% of the time, line up with our company's views of what we're trying to advocate for, and then I try to just use it as making opportunities for other people to say, okay, it's not just about me donating, but it's about you also caring about the issues that I and we think are relevant as a company, and we had a leading Democrat last week in Charlotte, and a lot of people in my company think I'm a one-way voter, and he was amazing.

Congressman Torres, who was working on a very important bill around trigger leads in our industry, and he held a symposium with our employees.

It was optional, and people of all striped showed up.

It was amazing.

- So is there concern among executives in, when you say no to a politician, especially an incumbent politician who's running for reelection?

- That's a given though.

- I mean, it's a balancing act, I can imagine, for businesses, because you're afraid, gosh, if I don't donate, will there be retribution?

- I tend to think that most people are well-meaning people and aren't gonna take retribution if you don't do that, and you try to make it issues-based, and I think for probably 80, 90% of the people who enter the political sphere, it's a compromise for them financially and with taking a lot of heat, and they want to make change, I find, and what I find typically between the two parties is they both want to make change.

They want to do it in different ways, and so you have to figure out ways to connect them through the eyes of normal people and what rationally makes common sense, and then don't just support one side.

If there's a liberal congressman or a conservative congressman that really aligns with your issues, like help everybody.

I find that people actually donating to the political process makes them much, much more engaged and caring about the issues, not the other way around.

Like what the thing that I think is a big misnomer sometimes in the public is that a politician's gonna vote for something one way or another because of your opinion.

What I think it more is is that politicians, some are gonna resonate more with your issue, and then you're gonna support them more, which is our constitutional process.

I mean, it's amazing the way it works.

- Real quick.

- Ultimately, the people decide.

- A tough issue right now.

There are so many social issues, and I'm not getting into 'em, but a lot of businesses in the past two decades got involved in social issues, and now I'm seeing some businesses going, we're gonna stay in our lane.

Is that a tough thing for you?

Do you get pressure from groups, right or left, to get involved in very divided social issues?

- We have not, and our screen for us is what's good for normal, ordinary customers in their financial services choices around the key decisions they're gonna make, and we wanna advocate for them, and then therefore, we wanna advocate for the businesses that serve them, and we'll do that with anybody, but I wish the government in general would stay outta most social issues, and everybody should remember, and I think this is something for politicians to remember too, is that the constitution even says, like, the power not provided to the federal government should go to the states, and everything else should go to the people, and a lot of times, we forget that ordinary people working things out in a common sense way doesn't need a law, maybe doesn't need a license, and just let people work on it unless they're doing horrible things to each other.

- Doug, in the final minute, we have, a lobbyist, the term lobbyist has such negative connotations.

There's that industry lobbyists are controlling a politician.

Why do you need lobbyist?

Explain that process in the remaining minute here.

- So the modern term for lobbyist is government relations, and I think that it is very beneficial.

Many of these lobbyists specialize in one issue or one segment of issues, and if you want a person in government relations at the federal level or at the state level in certain states who knows about financial technology issues and consumer protection issues and has really, really great relationships, most importantly with the staffers.

Sometimes, it's the staffers who really get things done, not even so much the elected politician who know what that person feels and believes and get all the details together, and they do a lot of that legwork that you just can't do.

It's the same reason you need a lawyer or a doctor.

- Doug in 10-- - I can't fix my broken hip, either.

- Yeah, (chuckles) Doug, in 10 seconds, what are three words that you look for in a politician or a public servant?

- Trust and honesty and being, it's more than three words, and holding true to your principles.

I talked to somebody yesterday who I disagree with a bunch, and I told him, I said, the thing that I really enjoy about you is that you went there to do a job, and you're holding true to your principles.

Even when I don't disagree with you, he takes the time to talk to me.

- Doug, it was great to hear a business executive's perspective on Unspun.

Thanks so much, friend.

- Hey, thank you and good luck with your show.

I love what you're doing.

- Now, PBS Charlotte's Jeff Sonier takes Unspun on the street to hear your thoughts on the politics of big business.

- Yeah, we're here in Birkdale Village in Huntersville, where shoppers can spend their dollars at companies based on price or quality or convenience, but what about what a company stands for, who they support, or what they support?

(inquisitive orchestra music) Would it influence you on whether to shop from a company because of a stand they took?

- It just really depends on the stand that they take.

- I really admire companies that say something and stay the course.

Now do I agree with every stance that a company makes that I purchase from?

Probably not.

- I think they're trying to appeal to a consumer of a certain political persuasion.

Companies, I find it interesting that they play both sides of that coin.

They're not a person, yet they want free speech rights, but I don't think they're entitled to that.

People are people and companies are not a person and shouldn't have all the rights that a person has, and so I don't think they should be taking those stands.

- I do think people put more pressure on companies and individuals to pick a stance.

They don't seem to mind it, I guess, but I think politics is such a tricky topic that my personal feelings is to stay clear from it.

- Things just blow up like crazy and can spread very quickly, and I think, sometimes, the message might be lost as a result.

- It's almost like a magnifying glass, that social media.

It's not that companies haven't done it before.

It's just that everybody notices it now.

- Yeah, I really think it might influence companies to take a step back a little bit more.

- Yeah, that traditional line between politics and business may be blurrier than it used to be maybe because of social media, like a lot of other things these days, Pat.

- Thanks, Jeff.

This is a tough issue.

So what do you think about the issue?

Email us your thoughts on the politics of big business to unspun@wtvi.org.

(dramatic orchestra music) Tonight on our Unspun Countdown, we've got the top five potential conflicts of interest between politicians and business.

Boy, this is a tough one to talk about having been in both business and politics.

So let's start out with number five, oh, ownership of stock by politicians.

You see this controversy, especially in Washington DC right now, where all of a sudden, you have Democrats and Republicans buying and selling stocks on issues that they're discussing, especially in committee meetings.

So the question is do they have inside information on stocks, and should they be forbidden from selling and buying stocks while they're in Congress or on the Senate?

Big issue that needs to be resolved on Capitol Hill.

Number four, former politicians and staff working for business.

This is what we call, in politics, the rotating door between working in politics and then going and working as a lobbyist or for a special interest group, taking advantage of the connections that you have between the two.

So the dilemma we have is this is that some politicians are meeting with organizations that they might end up working for after they leave politics and is that in the back of the mind of the politicians when they're actually voting on important policy?

Very interesting revolving door in politics, and it's just not in Washington DC.

It's also in our state capital.

Number three, this is what I call friendships, relationships with lobbyists and business leaders, or maybe a better term is pseudo-friendships, because the fact of the matter is it's human nature that you become friends with the lobbyists, because you see them every day walking the halls or in the back halls of city hall or the state capitol or the nation's capitol.

You go out to dinner with them, you go to association meetings over the country with these lobbyists, because that's their job, and they're real good at building relationships with you, and remember, a lot of these lobbyists may have even worked for you at one time, former staff members, and they're natural friends, and then all of a sudden, you've gotta vote on an issue in which you have this pseudo-friendly relationship.

Is it really a friendly relationship or is it just business?

I'll tell you when politicians find out is when they leave office.

Do they still stay in touch with the lobbyists, or do the lobbyists stay in touch with them?

Often, all those friendships go away.

That's the name of the game.

Number two, business taxes that help pay for government programs.

What I mean for this is that businesses pay the largest amount of taxes.

It might be property tax, it might be sales tax, it might be income tax, it might be utility taxes, and it's that money that helps pay for a lot of the government programs that you wanna provide the citizens.

Therefore, you don't want to irritate those businesses so much that they might leave the state or even leave the country where you lose that tax income.

Is that a conflict of interest?

Interesting question, and number one, well, of course, number one is raising campaign money, especially right before votes on important issues.

This can happen in the city council on zoning issues.

This can happen in the state legislature on major policy issues on finance, and this happens every single day in Washington DC where you're about to have a vote, and all of a sudden, you get all these donations from special interest groups, either before or against a particular issue.

Does that influence your vote?

Is that a conflict of interest?

Should there be a barrier between when you can get political campaign funds and when there's a vote on a specific interest of that party?

(exhales) Interesting top five.

(dramatic orchestra music) PBS Charlotte's very popular Jeff Sonier joins me now for Unspun One-on-one.

Jeff, I'm getting tired of hearing feedback that, oh, that Jeff Sonier is great.

- Well, you're the only one hearing it.

It's the voices in your head, I suppose, right?

(chuckles) - That's great, well deserved.

- Questions this week, they come from the headlines, they come from our topic.

I ask 'em, you answer 'em.

- All right, let's do it.

- That's why we call it One-on-one.

Let me ask you, you were a candidate for mayor.

You were a candidate for city council, for governor, for Senate, when they show up with a check at an odd time, is that a red flag when a company's offering money right before a vote?

I mean, was it a red flag for you?

- Yeah, especially if it's people that you typically didn't deal with, and anyone that you've dealt with many times in the future would never do that.

So it's usually someone that's maybe new to politics in Charlotte or in the state who maybe did this where they came from.

They might have come from another government up in the northeast where it was typical where you gave a check to a politician right before a vote.

That hasn't been the norm in Charlotte, and I hope it never becomes that norm, but corruption is available everywhere.

It's a legal thing to do, but you have to be very careful and just the perception is wrong, and if it does sound like a quid pro quo and especially if you keep any of that money for yourself, you're going to jail and you should.

- Well, you mentioned it doesn't happen very often in North Carolina or Charlotte, but it has.

We've seen public servants in Charlotte in Raleigh and in the surrounding areas get investigated, get arrested.

How do you tell the difference between a political payoff and a legitimate political contribution?

- Again, if you've been in it long enough, you know the legit players, and the legit players would never even try a quid pro quo, a direct quid pro quo, because they know it's too risky for their long-term business, and they don't want to go to jail or prison for one project, and I'm, sure as heck, not gonna risk that in my future, but there are a few people who wanna make a fast buck who might wanna do it, and then there are a few politicians who might wanna make a fast buck or get that money into their campaign funds because they desperately need it, and they'll be tempted to do it.

A temptation of money and power can impact politics, and you see a US senator up north right now being investigated for that where they found gold bars and money in his closet.

- Yeah, Senator Menendez from New Jersey.

- That's exactly right.

- How do you control your staff?

Because you've got a lot of people underneath you that are helping you make decisions, maybe diverting things to your attention, away from your attention.

I guess you've gotta be wary of them as well, right?

- In fact, sometimes you have to be more worried about staff, because a lot of them are 25 to 35-years-old.

They might be looking for future jobs after you're either defeated or go on to another office, and some of the tricky lobbyists or tricky manipulators in politics would rather try to maneuver around staff, because staff in, especially Washington and Raleigh, have a great deal of influence in writing and influencing bills.

Often where the politicians will look at a big thick bill, and they'll go, is this right to the staff?

And they go, yeah, it's good, and they go, great, and maybe they don't know the staff has been unduly influenced by an outsider.

- Let me change gears a little bit.

When you were governor, this state got embroiled in a controversy that involved gender identity and the use of restrooms and that sort of thing, and our entire state became the target of boycotts from a lot of different companies.

What's that like when the state, its citizens, its governmental complex, is the target of a boycott and how do you deal with that?

- From a personal standpoint, it was very tough, because I had physical and verbal threats, not only against me, but my family, but one thing you realize, all boycotts that you read about in the newspaper or see on the news is coordinated usually by an outside group, and it's well funded.

For example, in the boycott directed toward the state during the locker room controversy, it was a group called the HRC, the Human Rights Campaign, very powerful multimillion dollar group, that was giving donations to people and also putting pressure on businesses saying, if you don't fight this, if you don't threaten to boycott North Carolina, we're gonna get a boycott against your business, and then the party that that benefits attaches to it too, because they see benefit in attaching to do this.

Now another very influential group on the Republican side of the aisle is the NRA.

They don't pressure businesses.

They just pressure directly to politicians say, if you don't go along with what we say, you will not only get our donations, but we'll send a mail out that never vote for this person again in a Republican primary, and if that's the case, you're dead, same thing true with the HRC in the Democratic primary.

They can influence whether you win a primary or not.

So they have a great deal of influence.

So you've gotta realize where that pressure is coming from.

The media often doesn't talk about where the pressure is coming from.

- We hear about quid pro quo among elected officials, but it sounds like the boycotts are kind of a quid pro quo when you're putting pressure on companies.

- It's so much-- - Do this or else we'll boycott companies.

- It's a blackmail.

It's extortion, but what's happened in the last two years is all of a sudden, threats of boycotts from either the right or left aren't working, because businesses are realizing this is impacting our bottom line, and I'm going to irritate everyone no matter what decision I make.

So in the last two to three years with Budweiser controversy, with the Target controversy, with the MLB controversy in Atlanta, all of a sudden, businesses are going, you know what?

I'm gonna stay as far away as I can from social issues, because as Michael Jordan once say, the buyers of my sneakers are both Republicans and Democrats, and therefore, he stays out of politics and is criticized for that.

It's a very tough call for businesses, and then the businesses have to realize who are they representing?

Are they speaking for their stockholders, their management team, their customers?

Is there a vote among their employees?

It's a very tough internal issue for businesses too, to get involved in issues not related to their specific business' interest.

- Yeah, you just don't know where the next boycott or the next controversy is coming from, and I guess that's the problem.

If you can't anticipate it, if you're not doing your homework, that's when you find yourself in trouble.

- Guns, abortion, gender identity, and now the Palestinian-Israeli controversy, you're seeing law firms review people's resumes to see if they participated in protest.

That just came out this week.

So it's a very, very tough subject.

- Yeah, lots of moving parts and lots to keep up with.

Thanks for your help, governor, and that's this week's One-on-one.

(dramatic orchestra music) - This week on Unfiltered, I want to talk about who's really behind the bills on Capitol Hill that have a huge impact on every sector of business.

Most politicians won't admit it, but there's a real lack of business acumen and leadership experience in today's politician.

So when lawmakers pass a major bill that affects both for-profit and non-profit businesses, chances are that bill was actually written by a lobbyist.

Lobbyists then hand over the language word-for-word to staffers in Congress, staffers who often then leave government for more money with the same companies, including big nonprofit organizations that lobby them, now and in the future.

It's the new revolving door in Washington that we don't hear about here at home.

It's also why lawmakers' staff is becoming more important to big companies than the lawmakers themselves.

It's a lot easier working with a staffer that's trying to educate politicians on the basics of business, especially when many politicians are more interested in simply getting a check from those companies to help pay for their next election.

Well, that's the reality as I see it.

(upbeat orchestra music) Thanks for joining us.

I hope you'll come back next week as we explore the politics of problem solving.

We'll ask Senator Tom Tillis why nobody in politics wants to make a deal anymore, and I'll count down the top five issues that both parties in Washington refuse to compromise on.

That's on our next Unspun, where we'll tell you what politicians are thinking but not saying.

Goodnight, folks.

- A production of PBS Charlotte.

(cheery orchestra music)