- [Announcer] This is a production of PBS Charlotte.

- This week on "Unspun: The Politics of Vote Counting."

On election night, the election fight is just getting started.

Both parties are already lining up their lawyers for a possible legal battle over who wins the White House.

Plus, the top five things politicians do on election day.

In today's America, welcome to the spin game.

Believe me, I know, I'm Pat McCrory.

When I was governor and mayor, I played the spin game.

I was played by the spin game.

But aren't we all done being spun?

Let's take the spin out of the world we're in here on "Unspun."

(upbeat music) Good evening, I'm Pat McCrory and welcome to "Unspun," the show that tells you what politicians are thinking but not saying.

Yep, win or lose, election night used to mark the end of a long campaign.

No more negative ads or nonstop robocalls from candidates or throw away flyers filling up your mailbox.

But not anymore, not when both political parties and their lawyers are ready to turn every close race into a court case.

That's what happened in the last presidential election.

- You know, we can know the results as early as tomorrow morning, but it may take a little longer.

As I've said all along, it's not my place or Donald Trump's place to declare who's won this election.

- Frankly, we did win this election, we did.

(audience applauds and cheers) So we'll be going to the US Supreme Court.

We want all voting to stop.

- And it ain't over till every vote is counted, every ballot is counted.

(horns honk) (audience applauds) - We don't want them to find any ballots at four o'clock in the morning and add them to the list.

Okay?

(audience applauds) - That was election night four years ago.

Donald Trump and Joe Biden setting the stage for courtroom battles here in North Carolina and across the country, recounting ballots in some states and challenging ballots in other states before we finally found out months later who officially won the election.

It was messy.

Trump supporters are still calling the Democrats cheaters.

Biden supporters are still calling the Republicans liars and sore losers.

And the same situation is shaping up this year in a race between Trump and Harris that promises to be even closer.

So is this the new normal of presidential politics where voting laws are unclear and voting flaws are hidden, where every election is only over when the appeals run out, leaving voters in doubt?

No more winning fair and or losing gracefully.

Is that the election system we really want?

Joining us now to talk more about what happens after election night is Marshall Hurley.

He's a Greensboro attorney who's appeared throughout North Carolina in cases involving contested elections, recounts and voter rights.

He's also a former congressional staffer in Washington, and a former legal counsel to the North Carolina State Senate.

Marshall, thanks for joining us tonight.

- Happy to be here.

- Boy, is this gonna be a year, isn't it?

- It is, it's already started.

- So what are the issues most likely to trigger election challenges?

- Well, I think the first thing that candidates and campaigns look at is close results.

Close results often triggers activity to make sure that the election process and the counting of votes was fair and square and in accordance with our rules and statutes.

- So close elections, they will definitely challenge in many cases.

- It's very attractive for a campaign that's just a few votes behind.

- If it's a landslide, it's not worth it?

- If it's a landslide, there's little to look at in most cases.

- So what's happening now with lawyers, and what's gonna happen after election day?

- Well, we're seeing two things right now.

In a report yesterday from Reuters news service, they indicated that there are 95 election-related lawsuits pending in seven battleground states, including North Carolina.

- Already?

- Today, there are 95 suits.

There's a website called Democracy Docket.

I'm not giving them a shout out.

I'm just saying that they track these lawsuits that are pending.

Some of them have greater consequence than others, depending on outcome.

Some of them may just be concerning the location of precincts or where precinct locations got moved.

Some of them have to do with registration, registration locations, procedures that could conceivably have greater consequence.

- What are the issues you most likely see arising that will have potential serious consequences in delaying who's announced as the winner?

- Well, let's just focus on North Carolina, and then you can extrapolate outside our borders.

We, in North Carolina, from a legal perspective, after the election takes place, the candidates and campaigns have an opportunity to look at how votes were counted, the tabulation, the math.

Was every ballot brought forward and accounted for?

Were the records kept in terms of voters showing up?

Were the early voters and the election day voters, did those numbers add up, so to speak?

Did they have the appropriate verification process?

Then there is also, aside from the math as I call it, there's the question of the actual conduct of the election.

That involves a different set of rules, different inquiries.

Who voted, did people vote in the proper precincts?

Did people comply with early voting and absentee voting?

The process.

So those are the two avenues, if you will, that attorneys look at to see was the election conducted fairly.

Are the results reliable?

And that's really what's important is for people win, lose, or draw to have confidence in the outcome.

- This is both Republicans and Democrat lawyers lining up on both sides ready to do battle.

- And that's a little bit new in my experience.

I had my first election law case in the '80s, and people were not lined up at the courthouse door at that time, because I think the confidence that people had was a little stronger.

The legal avenues were not being pursued to the same extent.

Now, I think that you're seeing greater activity and greater involvement by larger groups of lawyers.

You have, obviously, both sides, Democrat and Republican, have their teams of lawyers.

Those have grown in recent years and you also have some, I would call them public interest attorneys coming from say state bar organizations or other just public advocacy groups.

So you've at least got those three groups.

The numbers definitely have increased tremendously.

- Where did all these lawyers come from?

First of all, who's hiring them, and where did all these lawyers come from?

With all due respect.

- Well, everybody knows there's too many lawyers to begin with.

But I think, and, again, I have the perspective of 30 or 40 years of involvement, and I'm gonna tell a story to answer your question.

We had a sort of a fraternity of election lawyers, and there was the Republican group and the Democrat group.

And every year after the election, we got together at the Institute of Government, and there were just maybe a dozen, 15 of us combined.

We talked about what went right, what went wrong, what the problems were, new election laws, what needed to be done.

I'm gonna brag on us, it was a real collegial group.

And those people were lawyers like me who had an interest in politics in addition to a legal practice.

But now there's actual recruiting of attorneys to participate in the post-election and the pre-election process as well.

- How much does it cost?

I know in my recount, we spent over a quarter of a million dollars, and I cut it short because it was obvious we weren't gaining votes, we were losing votes.

How much are we paying these lawyers, the candidates?

- Well, I think that when the Washington firms got involved, the New York firms got involved, that's where the big legal money.

- You're talking maybe 500 to $1000 an hour?

- Absolutely, absolutely.

And, you know, for one lawyer, and it can add up from there.

And, of course, you know, just to pick a number, we learned in recent reports of the last week or so that the Harris campaign has raised a billion dollars since July.

There's money there to pay lawyers.

- But some of this money comes from separate entities that go into a separate entity, because you set up, what, a recount committee?

- You can set up a recount committee under North Carolina law that, frankly, I think is a good thing because it requires reporting and transparency, and then you have outside groups that are putting money in, and you might have private consulting that doesn't get into the public eye.

- So what's happening behind the scenes right now that we don't know about?

And maybe do the candidates know what's going on?

- I think what the candidate wants to know is, are we prepared?

Do we have our eyes open?

Do we know of problems?

A responsible candidate should be asking those questions.

And I'll mention, I won't get too deep into the weeds, but I'll mention a lawsuit that took place in North Carolina back in the '80s, and it was up in the mountains where people are digging out and rebuilding.

And there was a question about how straight ticket votes were counted if someone wanted to deviate from their straight ticket vote.

- Right, right.

- And cast a vote outside of that.

And the straight ticket vote counted every time.

The lawsuit after the election said, "Hey, that wasn't a fair way of counting."

And the court agreed, said, "But you knew what the rules were.

You sat back, you didn't challenge."

- You can't reinvent the rules after the election is over.

- Right, so the point of telling that story is that savvy lawyers and candidates and campaigns now look for problems that they see, that they feel like maybe the court should address in advance rather than wait to see what the outcome is.

- So your prediction this year, we know there are tons of lawyers, some very good DC lawyers lined up.

Is this election most likely gonna go to the courts?

- Well, I think we'll certainly see- - The presidential election and maybe others.

- I think we'll see some challenges.

Here's my hope, Pat.

We saw, I think, approximately 60 lawsuits across the country, state and federal, related to the campaign of 2020.

And we know what the outcome of every case was.

And what I'm hoping is, and it's a hope, that lawyers on both sides will have learned from that experience.

That just a close election or just a disgruntled candidate or supporters, that is not an entry to the courtroom.

- Marshall, let's end with a hope.

- That sounds good.

- Thank you very much for being "Unspun."

- Enjoyed it.

- Next up, PBS Charlotte's Jeff Sonier takes "Unspun" on the street to find out why voters have their doubts about close election results.

- Yeah, we're talking to voters during rush hour about why there's no apparent rush on election night to declare a winner, with close results and late results raising questions with some voters about what they call election integrity.

- Yeah, I think the integrity has been compromised some.

I do trust it, I do believe in it, but it would be nice if we had the results quicker.

- I think it's the rhetoric that people are hearing, the fear mongering.

You know, I think we live in a society of the fear du jour, the what we should be afraid of today.

- We want a landslide.

We have to win, we have to win so that it's too big to rig.

Too big to rig.

- I imagine corruption is nothing new.

I imagine it happens on some scale at all times.

I think the media gives us a different spin, and I think we're so divided and the way we view people is so untrusting these days.

I think that fuels suspicion.

- I think the climate has changed.

And I think it may be who has been in politics lately that has put little bugs in people's ears.

I don't feel like it's anything to worry about.

- I think it puts too many doubts in people's mind, especially when it does go on weeks.

- Here's the thing.

Let's let the courts handle that and let's handle November.

(audience applauds and cheers) We'll handle November.

How about that?

- Yeah, that was Kamala Harris during a campaign rally in eastern North Carolina last weekend.

But coming up in January, Vice President Harris will be presiding over the official count of electoral votes by Congress in Washington, deciding once and for all, whether she's the next President of the United States or Donald Trump is.

Pat.

- Thanks, Jeff.

So what do you think about the issue?

Email us your comments on recounts and contested voting results to unspun@wtvi.org.

Or even better, send us a video, and we might use it on the air.

(dramatic music) Tonight on our "Unspun Countdown," we've got the top five things politicians do on election day that maybe you don't know about.

Let's start out with number five.

Number 5: write two speeches, a victory speech and a concession speech.

In fact, this time they might need to write something in between like we don't know yet, especially on election night with all what you heard from Marshall Hurley.

You know, it's kind of interesting.

On election night, on one of my elections night where I won the governorship, I wasn't ready for a victory speech.

So I wrote something on the back of a Marriott matchbook.

You never know what you're not prepared for.

Number 4: follow intel on voter turnout.

During the entire day of election day, things are really out of your control.

So you're on the phone and people are calling you.

What are you hearing, what are you hearing?

What's the voter turnout?

What are people telling you?

Most people know nothing.

It's not gonna make any difference what they tell you during the day.

It's only when the elections close, the polls close and you start seeing the results.

But during the day, you're in the blind just like everyone else.

Number 3: during election day, you try to get as much free media on TV.

In fact, most people running for, whether it be city council or President of the United States, you go vote on election day, bring the media with you and make one more sell.

You wanna at least vote by lunchtime.

So you make the noon news, that's your last chance to get your last pitch in and have them watch you voting mostly with your family too.

That helps an awful lot.

Get as much free media as you can on the day of the election.

Number 2: this is really a waste of time, but if you're running for city council, county commission, school board, state legislature, it might be worth it, especially in a close election, and that is go ahead and work a polling place, shake hands, make yourself feel better.

And if it's a close election, you never know.

That last hand you shake might make the difference between winning and losing.

And number 1: let me tell you the reality, the best thing to do is st, just go walk your dog and then take a nap because it's out of your control from here on out.

Because that night waiting for the returns, it's very fatiguing, it's very tiring, oh, it's emotional.

You've gotta be well rested because the next day you're either gonna be on the top or you're gonna be in a position where no one returns your call anymore.

(dramatic music) PBS Charlotte's Jeff Sonier joins me now for "Unspun: 1-on-1."

- Okay, Governor, you know how this works.

The questions come from this week's show and this week's headlines, I ask them, you answer them.

- I hate the media.

And you're the media, I'm not.

Now, I'm part of the media.

- Yeah, that's why we call it 1-on-1.

Hey, let me ask you about that.

When you lost to Roy Cooper in 2016.

- Oh, thanks.

Thanks you for reminding me of that, yeah.

- You know, that was and is the closest governor's race in North Carolina history.

What's that like as a candidate?

Can you walk us through the conversations behind the scenes about recounts and lawsuits and challenges?

- You know, it's funny, I made a point, I knew it was gonna be close, and I made a point not to be on camera or in front of people while watching the results, because I remember Harvey Gantt watching the results of the convention center when he was running against Sue Myrick and Sue Myrick upset him.

And I remember always going, "Man, I don't wanna be put in that spot," because it's a very difficult spot to be put in.

So I was actually in the governor's mansion watching the results.

And initially I fell way behind, because the early votes are usually Democrat.

And then I caught back up and I was declared the winner and my campaign manager said, "Come on.

Come on over to the Marriott Hotel."

And so my wife and I were taken to Marriott Hotel in Raleigh.

We walked in, my family stood up and applauded, and all of a sudden one of my campaign workers said, "Wait a minute, there's a problem.

Durham early voting hasn't come in yet."

It was supposed to come in at 7:30, didn't come in until 11:15.

And I went, "Durham?"

And they said, "Durham."

And I went, "Well, if Durham hadn't come in, I've lost."

And next thing I knew I was 90,000 up and I ended up 5,000 down.

So not that I remember this.

- He's got the numbers.

- It's brutal, it's brutal.

- When does the conversation start about the recount or the challenge or, you know, contesting the results?

- For me, it probably started the next day.

And because in North Carolina, if the results are less than 1%, the law says you can do a recount.

And plus, we were concerned that what happened in Durham, that these votes were turned in late.

And then we spent about a quarter of a million dollars and set up a whole committee and things of this nature and fought the Cooper lawyers.

But as the recount started, I started losing votes.

I lost 5,000 votes during the recount.

That's brutal too.

But at the time we had a hurricane, so I didn't get involved at all because I had a hurricane, and then I had forest fires out west.

So it kind of was good.

It took my mind off it, and I was able to help people.

- So you talked about the conversation starting right away about a possible recount challenge.

When does the conversation end, and are you still being pushed by some people to follow up to do something?

- Yeah, that's a great question.

Yeah, I was pushed.

I had a lot of friends and supporters and others from outside going, "This was election stolen.

You gotta keep fighting."

They brought up these machines are rigged and yada, yada, yada.

And you want to fight for them, but you also have to be realistic.

And I saw the trend of late votes coming in that would've gone against me.

There's no reason to draw out this agony.

And so I made a decision, let's stop spending money, let's move on.

And I called up Roy Cooper from an office in Raleigh and said, "Roy, it's over.

I'm gonna do a video and announce my concession speech, and say I'm gonna support your efforts."

- What was his reaction?

- You know, I can barely remember it.

It was a short conversation.

And then I did a video.

- So as a candidate, is it better to challenge the results and still lose or accept the results and always wonder could this thing have gotten turned around?

- You know, I'll never know the answer to that.

I think we did it the right way.

I'm proud that we followed the rules and then after the rules and after the votes, we conceded the election and said, "We're gonna support the next administration any way we can."

- I know Marshall Hurley said things have changed over the last 15, 20, 30 years when it comes to challenges.

Was your campaign ready to challenge ahead of time, or was it something that was kind of developed on the fly after the election?

- No, we had both the Cooper campaign and my campaign, and a lot of people outta DC were ready.

And I wasn't really engaged in that because it's a separate recount committee and a separate board and a separate fund that does all that.

And I, on purpose, kind of stayed away from it.

And that's where actually the hurricane and the work that I had to do as governor helped me take my mind off all that.

And, you know, I saw cities underwater at the time and people really hurting, and it put things in perspective for me.

How can I complain about a governor's election when someone's town or house was gone?

- Election, win or lose, you still got a chance to make a difference as governor, I suppose.

- Absolutely, yeah, and then we had major wildfires out west.

So when I'm seeing this going on around the same period of time, it brings back memories of 2016.

- Well, let me change gears and talk about the presidential race.

When there's a challenged race, like we've had, you know, four years ago and maybe we'll have in this election.

Does it change how you govern?

You know, does the question about election integrity undermine a candidate who wins because so many people don't believe they won legitimately?

- It can, but it shouldn't.

And I think one of the things we have to do now more than anything else is restore the confidence in the voting system.

And it's not gonna be perfect.

It'll never be perfect.

But if the people don't have confidence in the voting system, it's like not having confidence in the banking system.

And if you don't have confidence in that, they won't have confidence in our democracy.

And so I'm gonna do everything I can as a former governor and a former mayor to bring confidence that this is how it's working.

These are the changes that have been made, even in North Carolina since the last election.

And try to educate and bring about a civics lesson to people on how elections work.

Because it is very complex.

And I don't blame people for being confused because I don't think we're doing a good job in communicating how elections work.

- How political is the recount system?

I know there's not supposed to be any politics involved, but do politics get involved in recounts and challenges?

- I really haven't seen that.

The politics is occurring outside the room through the media, not inside the room.

I have not seen it inside the room.

I've heard rumors of that.

I've heard misinformation about it, but I've met a lot of people, both Republican and Democrat, work in elections.

And you got to trust somebody.

- [Jeff] Yeah.

- Including your neighbors who may be working there.

- Yeah, and we've gotta trust the results win or lose if they're gotten to by legitimate means, I suppose.

- The fact is there will always be a victor.

The question this time is when will we find out?

But when we find out if it's not the person I want, I've still gotta say, we've gotta continue this great country and this great state and this great experiment we call the United States of America.

- Thanks, governor.

And that's this week's on "1-on-1."

- Thank you.

(upbeat music) Counting votes in North Carolina will be different this year.

No more mail-in ballots arriving after election night or ballot drop boxes like other states do.

No more rumors about voting machines connected to the internet.

And this year, North Carolina will have paper ballots as a backup if a recount is needed.

The changes are supposed to make this presidential election more secure.

But are voters really better off than we were four years ago?

Early voting started this week in North Carolina, and absentee ballots were sent out in September.

But there's another new law that says none of those early votes will be processed until the polls close on election night.

So election results could actually be slower than four years ago.

And then there's a situation in western North Carolina where 28 counties are still considered disaster areas after flood damage from Hurricane Helene.

Wide areas are still without water and power and roads, but losing your home to a storm shouldn't mean losing your voice in this election.

Lawmakers in both parties have already approved moving polling places, if necessary, and helping voters and shelters with absentee ballots.

There's also additional funding for more election workers and generators to power voting machines.

Plus, extra money may be on the way for voter transportation by horse or helicopter, if necessary.

According to the State Board of Elections, we'll do everything we can to help voters get to the ballot box.

It's a lot of work to do without a lot of time to do it.

But doing it right between now and election night is one more way to show that our free, fair, and secure election system still works here in North Carolina and that every vote still counts even under the worst of circumstances.

Well, that's the reality as I see it.

And I hope you'll come back next week as we explore "The Politics of Interviews."

It's free publicity, but not always good publicity.

Behind the scenes, how do candidates choose who to talk to?

How do they prepare for the hard questions, and how to turn a bad interview into a good soundbite or vice versa?

That's at our next "Unspun," where we'll tell you what politicians are thinking but not saying.

Goodnight, folks.

(upbeat music) - [Announcer] A production of PBS Charlotte.