- [Narrator] This is a production of PBS Charlotte This week in "Unspun", the Politics of Executive Orders.

For the new White House, it's all about sweeping change and keeping promises, but once you sign on the dotted line, get ready for the lawsuits and the battles in Congress.

Plus, we'll talk about executive orders here in North Carolina, and I'll count down my top five illegally questionable orders in Washington and Raleigh.

In today's America, welcome to the spin game.

Believe me, I know.

I'm Pat McCrory.

When I was governor and mayor, I played the spin game.

I was played by the spin game.

But aren't we all done being spun?

Let's take the spin out of the world we're in, here on "Unspun".

(dramatic music) Good evening.

I'm Pat McCrory and welcome to "Unspun", the show that tells you what politicians are thinking, but not sane.

Eight years ago when Donald Trump was sworn in the first time, anti-Trump protestors stormed the streets of Washington, - [Protestors Together] Illegitimate.

- [Protestor] Illegitimate.

We will not conciliate.

- We will not conciliate.

- We will not collaborate.

- We will not collaborate.

- We will rise up.

- We will rise up.

- We will rise up.

- We will rise up.

- But fast forward to 2025 and the resistance has pretty much gone out of existence.

So now it looks like it'll be an army of lawyers heading the fight against Trump this time around, starting with challenges to his new executive orders.

- [Aid] This next order relates to the definition of birthright citizenship under the 14th Amendment of the United States.

- Okay, that's a good one, birthright.

That a big one.

- So can the President take away citizenship from the children of illegal immigrants?

Can he fire federal workers by the thousands?

Can he create an entire new department of government efficiency and put the world's richest man in charge?

Those are all the questions that'll be answered by the courts now.

Meanwhile, here in North Carolina, new governor Josh Stein just issued an executive order protecting the state's abortion providers and former governor Roy Cooper was sued for his executive orders which closed North Carolina bars and banned church services during COVID.

Join us here on Unspun this week to talk about the legal challenges to executive orders is Bill Graham.

He's a former candidate for North Carolina Governor and a lawyer whose legal work has included suing the federal government over contaminated drinking water at Camp Lejeune.

He has also worked for North Carolina Senator Jesse Helms on the Senate Agricultural Committee in Washington.

Bill, it's great to have you you.

- Great to be here Governor.

- Great to be here in Charlotte too.

- Sure, sure.

- You know, it's kind of interesting the executive orders first, recently by Governor Cooper during the COVID controversy has kind of changed the dynamics in the fight about the authority of the executive branch when he closed down the bars.

- Yep.

- And church services, do you think that's gonna have an impact on Governor Stein and this constant fight about the authority of executives and governors?

- If I was Governor Stein, I'd take a little bit further step than what Governor Cooper did because now Stein doesn't have that veto super majority proof type of a dynamic over in the general assembly.

So I look for Governor Stein to go further in his executive orders, not the least of which has been on protecting the providers of abortion here in North Carolina with the 12 week provision is probably the one of the more liberal in the, if I should say, in the South.

And he's going to do everything he can to protect that.

He'll probably issue some executive orders on (indistinct).

That's gonna be very timely discussion here with Robert F. Kennedy Jr., with his recent confirmation hearings with the Senate.

So look for him to do some of that.

- So also, do you think Governor Stein will be, get constant pushback now by a Republican majority, although technically it's not supposed to be a partisan election, Supreme Court and a Republican majority state legislature, who by the way, I had to sue when I was governor.

- Oh, the- - Over executive powers.

- The lawsuits are gonna fly and they've already started to fly with the Griffin and Supreme Court case.

- Explain that real quick, the Griffin Supreme Court case.

- Yeah, the Supreme Court in North Carolina is up for grabs because the Jefferson Griffin, the judge, he's challenging the state election legitimacy of some of the ballots and the registration that's gone to the four circuits, it's gonna be bounced around.

Supreme Court's gonna have to figure out what they're gonna do with that.

That's gonna be a big decider because that will give a, you know, a further majority for the North Carolina Supreme Court.

So a lot of these issues are gonna wind up in the North Carolina Supreme Court.

So this is a big step in the direction of seeing which direction we're all gonna go in.

- Okay, now let's get to President Trump.

- Okay.

- And actually going back to even President Biden, because President Biden also did a lot of executive orders.

In fact, he did executive orders paying off student debt.

It went to the Supreme Court.

The Supreme Court overrode it.

He did it again.

So there seems to be, even when the courts order something against the president, some presidents including Biden, and it looks like maybe Trump will go, well, I know they ruled against me, but we'll make slight changes and keep challenging it.

- Yeah, Trump is gonna get into this same dynamic that Biden into, for example, the birthright citizenship issue, which Trump, you know, issued an executive order banning that.

Well, that was from the 14th Amendment, which applies to states due process and equal protection that came out of the Dred Scott decision.

And we've had it around, it wasn't in the, in the original 10 amendments.

I don't want people to get confused with that.

But the 14th Amendment applies to the states and that birthright citizenship has been in existence since the 14th Amendment, post the Civil War.

So you can't wipe that away of well settled constitutional law with an executive order.

So that's why many of the scholars on the constitutional side of the house say, this one's dead on arrival.

I agree with them.

Now, some of the other provisions that the president is putting forward, they'll probably be okay in the immigration enforcement.

That is an executive function.

So we're gonna see how far he can push the margins and what the courts are gonna allow him to get away with on the executive orders.

The birthright citizenship is dead on arrival.

The other ones are up for grabs.

- So let's also get to just a recent controversy this past week where he ordered the stoppage of federal spending that's been approved by Congress.

It's kind of the reverse of what Biden did.

Biden extended federal spending- - Right.

- Which wasn't approved by Congress, Trump is now stopping federal spending.

He's backed off a little bit.

I think OMB kind of went, got over their skis.

I'm not even sure the White House knew what was going on, but what do you think about the legal authority of the president doing that?

- You can change some of the form and function, but you can't stop it all together because it's, for example, the Medicaid portal went down the other day because they were uncertain as to whether or not they were gonna continue to get funding.

Once you've been granted sort of a benefit or right, like social security, like Medicare or Medicaid and you've been approved, you have a property right in those benefits granted by the law and you can't wipe away that property right or that what, what is called in the world of the government, entitlement, you can't wipe away that entitlement with an executive order.

There is a property right and procedure that's always going to follow that.

That's called due process of law.

So once that due process of law attaches to your benefit, you have a right to go to court and say, wait a minute, here's a fellow who's trying to take away a right to a benefit that's been granted by the government, particularly here in Congress.

And he can't just usurp Congress's power and wipe that away.

I'm gonna take him to court and I'm gonna make sure that court enforces my right to the benefit that I've been granted.

And it goes for veterans, social security benefits, as I said, Medicare, Medicaid, and AFDC, WIC, CHIP, that kind of thing.

- You know, let's talk about Congress.

Okay?

Because maybe some of the blame needs to be put on Congress because everyone, both Republicans and Democrats say we need to get rid of the deficit, but they don't wanna make the tough decisions.

So they hand it to, whether it be Obama or Biden, and now Trump, basically going let the bureaucracy make the decision while at the same time going, we don't want the bureaucracy to make decisions.

It's like, what's the old term?

C, the acronym CYA.

- Yep.

- And by that then the president starts doing something, then the courts get involved.

Does that make sense?

- Yeah, I mean, a lot of people don't want the courts to be activists in nature.

They don't want the courts to get involved in what is essentially a congressional function.

And I get that and I agree with that.

But when you have a failure of Congress to put forward a clear direction about which, what we're gonna spend money on and and on whose benefit and who's getting taxed and who's getting the benefit of that tax or the borrowing, which is usually the case, we put it on the national credit card, we'll let the grandkids worry about it, which is- - Right.

- Horrific.

But you know, getting the courts involved in some of these things, they don't want to be in that space.

- Yeah.

- So you get reluctance of the courts to take up issues that they consider political.

- So, Biden, in the remaining minute here, we've got Biden put a lot of DEI things in and things related to the transgender community, implemented that, including in the Pentagon.

- Yep.

- A lot of executive orders, a lot of people didn't know about these executive orders.

Trump is reversing them all.

Where did the courts step in?

- The courts are gonna look at the constitution, they're gonna look at the statutory authority.

If there's no statutory authority to have implemented it in the first place, to wipe it away is no big deal, as far as they're concerned because there was no right to have that DEI label invested on you in the first place.

- Because Biden put it in, Trump can take it out.

- Absolutely.

- It works both ways.

- It's goose and gander time.

- Bill Graham, it's great to have you on "Unspun".

Thank you very much.

- Glad to be here Governor.

- Next up, PBS Charlottes, Jeff Sonier takes Spun on the street for more opinions on President Trump's executive orders.

- Yeah, from the White House to the courthouse, president Trump is a cleaning house symbolically, at least.

But it's not just symbolic.

If you are directly affected by one of those presidential orders, in particular on immigration and the borders.

- It's sending a strong signal to the world, our border is closed.

If you're in the country, illegally, you're on the table.

(person speaking Spanish) - [Translator] To all my countrymen and to all my fellow immigrants, I would tell you to really think things through.

It's a very difficult journey.

Lots of hardships.

And I know this because I experienced all those hardships with my own family.

So we don't want to come to this country to receive handouts.

We want to work, we want to create a better life.

- No country says that temporary visitors, their children will be given complete access to the benefits and blessings of American citizenship.

- There are children in this country that I care for a great deal that I love, that are going to be affected by these executive orders because it's not just about one class of people or one race of people, or one gender of people.

It's about a country collectively as a whole.

- Well, I, the executive order that I, I didn't know was coming that impressed me the most was no more regulations until our appointments are in place.

- There's a mountain of rules that actually don't benefit people.

And then it's missing rules that do benefit people.

- I think the Washington bureaucrats will certainly push back and they're on both sides.

There's Democrats and Republicans that you know that are there, that are locked in, so- - That have made plenty money holding the positions they're holding and they aren't letting go easy.

- Yeah, and whether it's regulation or immigration or deportation, well those are all issues that'll be heard soon in a courtroom.

- Thanks Jeff.

So what do you think about this issue?

Email us your thoughts on presidential orders to unspun@wtvi.org.

(dramatic music) Alright, tonight on our "Unspun" countdown, the top five legally Questionable Executive Orders at the state and federal level during the past decade or so.

Let's start out with number five.

Number five, the North Carolina COVID closings, which occurred primarily during Governor Cooper's administration.

You know, right now people are going, really, can you close a bar but not close a brewery?

Close a church, but not close a department store?

Those are now in court at this point in time.

Number four, birthright citizenship ban.

As Bill Graham mentioned, he thinks it's dead on arrival.

The amendment is very strong with no clarification.

If someone wants to change it, they might need a constitutional convention.

Let's go to number three.

Family pardons.

Of course, we're talking about the Biden preemptive pardons for the Biden family.

This sets incredible precedent and does this mean President Trump in the future before he leaves office can pardon his family too?

Let's go to number two.

Number two, student debt forgiveness.

Well, the courts have already ruled that the student debt forgiveness was unconstitutional by President Biden, but he did it again.

And now that same case might be leveled against President Trump regarding stopping federal funding temporarily.

Interesting.

The cases are very similar.

And number one, the pause on TikTok ban.

The Congress voted to stop TikTok.

President Trump is now pausing that, but does he have the power really to do that?

(dramatic music) PBS Charlotte's Jeff Sonier joins me now for "Unspun" One on One.

- Lots of ground to cover this week.

Lots of things happening at the White House and also at the state capitol.

We call it one-on-one 'cause I ask him and you answer 'em.

You ready?

- Yep.

- Okay.

Let's start.

When you were governor, you issued executive orders, but now they're, I guess they're seen not just as a way to get things done quickly, but also to, you know, make a statement as a political tool or a weapon.

Behind the scenes, is that part of the discussion when a governor or a president is putting together a possible executive order?

- Yeah, and actually when media types like you, Jeff Sonier, ask about executives orders, the assumption is the executive orders are immediate.

And the, when, when a governor or mayor or president signs one, it means the bureaucracy will move.

Now, a lot of 'em are just political statements, knowing nothing will happen.

The, a lot of the new media people have no idea and they assume that means it'll be automatically implemented.

You see this especially at the local and state level where it's a more of a political tool than actual action.

At the governor and mayor's level, executive orders are typically emergency orders during a hurricane, during a riot, which I had to do here in Charlotte during a winter storm.

Things of that nature.

That's where executive orders really make a difference.

Although there's also one executive order that gets a little too much publicity, and that's the executive order saying, declaring a disaster.

You've seen this in California, I've done it.

You see Cooper do it, and now Stein will do it too.

I'm declaring executive order, declaring North Carolina disaster.

That's really a paperwork thing to tell the federal government that all the cost will, will give to the federal government and will apply for federal spending.

It's more of a legal requirement, but it sounds like much more action than it actually is.

- And I guess it sends a message to the public too, if it's an executive order, if you weren't serious about what's happening, you should get serious about what's happening.

- Exactly.

That's why I'm a little concerned when presidents or governors or mayor overuse executive orders, because then it can mean, wait a minute, is this a real one or is this crying wolf?

- Well, that was kind of my next question.

When you've had this series, this flurry of executive orders in Washington, you know, this week's orders are kind of making us forget a little bit about last week's orders.

- Yeah.

Yeah.

- How much goes into the timing of these things?

Are people sitting around in back rooms discussing how to time these so that any controversy that's drummed up by the first one is kind of overtaken in the news cycle by the next one?

- I think that's part of the discussion and where you sign it.

Last week's show, we talked about signing it in front of the arena during the inauguration.

There was a signal there of action of power.

Governor Stein going out west and on his first day showing the people out west we're dealing with this hurricane, he shows maybe a little more action than his predecessor.

It's, yeah, there's appearance and there's reality and it's a fine line between the two.

- So let's talk about when you're on the other side of an executive order, let's say the immigration order this week.

- Yeah.

- The roundup started in cities all over the country.

If you're a governor or you're a mayor and you don't necessarily agree with what the president has ordered, how do you deal with that when things are happening on your streets, activities occurring with your citizens?

- This is where I disagree with some mayors and governors, especially with sanctuary cities.

When you're sworn as mayor or governor, you're not only swearing to the constitution of your state, you're swearing to the upholding the Constitution of the United States of America.

So if the laws of America say we have immigration laws, that means you as a governor also also ought to help enforce them because that's the president's prerogative also.

It's his responsibility to do that.

It'd be like me as governor going, there's a bank robbery, which is breaking federal law.

The feds come in to help investigate the bank robbery and me going, well, we're not gonna help you.

I think that's breaking my oath of office.

So I disagree with more my liberal friends on the democratic side who go, sorry, our laws are separate from the federal laws.

No, we're, we're all sworn to uphold both the United States Constitution and our state constitutions.

The question is when they conflict with each other and some of them do conflict with each other at this point in time, even local city laws may conflict with a federal law.

We're saying we're not gonna enforce, but most of the Supreme Court cases, I should ask Bill Graham this question.

Most federal law overrides local and state law.

This goes all the way back to the Articles of Confederation, which was then changed in 1787 to our constitution, which we read today.

- Okay, so what if you're on the other end of the president's order that that's freezing funding, federal funding, states and cities, they need this money.

They rely on this money.

You know, again, you gotta follow the law, but how do you, how do you cope with that?

- Well, first of all, that's more of a fight between the US Congress and the executive branch, and then the Supreme Court would have to get involved.

The courts are at the, states and cities are at the mercy of the federal government.

Yeah, they were promised these monies, but I guess they can withdraw 'em at any time.

The dilemma for the states and the cities say here in the city of Charlotte, we might have transit expenditures based upon the federal grants pay for 50% of our transit.

Well, the projects are already underway and the contractors need to be paid.

But if all of a sudden you have 50% pulled out on capital projects, we've got a really, we've got a dilemma at our hands.

And you've seen the Trump administration during this past week, kind of back off on food stamps and Social security and Medicare and Medicaid.

The news media is not focused on the huge capital grants, and this could even impact the universities that have research grants out there right now.

- So is this something to make the Trump voter happy, a message, a political message?

Or is this something where the cities there are saying, boy, we need to find another source of funding because we may not have this funding over the next four years?

- I think it's a way for the Trump administration to frankly target some of the green energy bills that were put into the infrastructure bill, into the inflation bill and going, we're not gonna spend money on maybe recharging stations or some electric car things in California, for example.

I think it's ways to pause selective things within a massive budget.

It kind of backfired because the media and the Democrats focused on those massive things that I don't think the administration thought about.

I think someone from the Office of Management budget got over their skis, and this typically happens at the end of an administration and at the beginning of administration where the executive orders are a little bigger than they thought.

- We're also seeing an effort right now to fire federal workers, to offer them early retirement.

You know, is the president rendered ineffective if the bureaucrats don't agree with him?

Is that why he's trying to clean house here?

- Oh, no doubt about it.

I had this problem, I've stated on this show before in North Carolina, there's a law that after 10 years, a political appointment is in office, they're permanent.

- Hmm.

- And so I had all these Hunt people working for me.

I was gonna build a new building just for Governor Hunt's, political appointees, because they didn't necessarily agree with what I wanted to do as governor, but that's what the North Carolina law said.

I would've had to challenge that law and take it to court.

That's what, that's what Trump is probably gonna do at the federal level.

You have this constant problem, like right now, Kennedy is going through confirmation and a democratic senator was attacking him about, you're going to fire 3,000 people.

And he went, well, Biden did the same thing.

There are 3,000 or so people who are political appointees in a massive organization of tens of thousands of people.

So if you politically say this the right way, it might appeal to your audience, but there's usually a story in between.

- So these lawsuits, are they aimed at truly stopping what the president is suggesting or ordering with these executive orders?

Or are they just trying to slow 'em down?

- A combination of the two.

The civil service laws that are probably 30 or 40 years old, maybe more were meant to protect civil service workers and take federal workers out of politics.

But now it's being accused that some of these civil service workers are actually involved in politics.

The line is getting blurred more and more.

Even, you know, as a governor, I wasn't allowed to do political events at the executive mansion.

In the past, we didn't do political events at the White House.

That line has been blurred more and more during the past several decades.

- Hey, very quickly- - Especially during COVID, - Hey, really quickly, I noticed that the White House press office, the press room, they're now allowing new media folks to have a seat alongside the- - Yeah.

- Legacy media.

How's that gonna change how the president's covered?

- Welcome to the new world, because what we're seeing is the legacy media is dying .

as Chuck Todd stated last week on our show.

You know, cable news is dying and some of radio is dying because under 50, under 40, they're listening to the internet.

- So you're gonna raise the hand, Joe Rogan, you're next.

- Joe Rogan, you're next.

The world has changed.

Rush Limbaugh to Joe Rogan.

Yeah, things have changed.

You know it from your old broadcast days.

- Yeah.

- People aren't watching the six o'clock news or 6:30 news like we did growing up with Walter Cronkite.

- Of course we know the audience for "Unspun" is undying and loyal, as is- Very loyal.

Very loyal.

And we appreciate that.

- That's all the time we've got for "Unspun".

Thank you, governor.

(dramatic music) - If you're looking for a clue to why some politicians do what they do, well maybe just follow the money.

On executive orders for instance, why did former President Biden issue pardons for his own family members?

Was it to protect them from possible investigations into using Biden's White House influence for profit?

Also, did you see what happened when President Trump issued an executive order to make America the world capital of crypto?

Trump's own crypto business were suddenly worth billions more.

Those are just two examples of how presidents can use politics for personal benefit.

And why aren't we hearing more criticism from Congress about all of this?

Well, that's because both Democrats and Republicans are also getting major donations from the crypto industry and insider information that their family can benefit from financially.

And they have their own former staffers in the lobbying business.

Just this week we saw a former US senator from New Jersey, sentenced to prison for corruption and bribery.

Senator Bob Menendez was helping foreign governments on Capitol Hill in exchange for gold bars and free cars.

And if you follow the money far enough, you'll find the same thing happening at state capitals and city halls.

People in charge of making the rules, also making a buck from those rules for their friends and families.

Sadly, we've seen local examples right here in North Carolina, including the Charlotte's Mayor's office.

So why are executive orders getting all of the attention right now, while conflicts of interest in those orders barely get noticed?

It's that lack of transparency that can turn into what's supposed to be a public office into a private money maker.

Well, that's the reality as I see it.

I hope you'll come back next week as we tell you what politicians are thinking, but not saying right here, on "Unspun".

Goodnight folks.

(dramatic music) - [Narrator] A production of PBS Charlotte.