- [Announcer] This is a production of PBS Charlotte - This week on "Un-Spun", the politics of voting.

Ballots by mail, early voting, voter IDs, they're not just affecting when we vote and how we vote, they're also changing how candidates campaign for our vote.

Plus the top five legal ways that political parties impact the vote.

"Un-Spun" is next, on PBS Charlotte.

In today's America, welcome to the spin game.

Believe me I know, I'm Pat McCrory.

When I was governor and mayor, I played the spin game, I was played by the spin game.

But aren't we all done being spun?

Let's take the spin out of the whirlwind, here on "Un-Spun."

(bright serious music) Good evening, I'm Pat McCrory and welcome to "Un-Spun", the show that tells you what politicians are thinking, but not saying.

You know, election day is a little less than a month away, but any real effort to sway who you vote for may already be over.

That's because almost 200,000 North Carolina voters already have their 2024 mail-in ballots.

The Board of Elections started sending them out three weeks ago.

And check out these numbers from the 2020 election, over a million of us here in North Carolina voted absentee by mail, and there were also 3.6 million more early voters who went to the polls weeks before election day.

All totaled, five out of six voters in North Carolina cast their ballots before the 2020 campaign was over.

So what's the hurry?

Especially so much can happen during a presidential race in those final few weeks.

And what about all the other races?

Are those candidates just wasting time and money with their last minute rallies and TV ads?

Maybe that's why Biden and Trump agreed to the earliest presidential debate ever back in June, or why the October surprise CNN story about Mark Robinson turned into a September surprise instead.

And one last thought, with all those early votes, why is it still so hard to find out on election night who the winner is?

Joining us now to talk more about how elections are changing for better and for worse, is Ann Tindall.

She's the special Counsel for Protect Democracy, a Washington-based nonprofit that's also a nonpartisan, focused on keeping our elections free, fair, and secure, no matter who wins.

Ann, thanks for joining us on "Un-Spun."

- Thank you so much for having me.

I'm happy to be here.

- Well first of all, what are the goals of your organization, and what are some of your strategies?

- Sure, so Protect Democracy, you know, that's a broad mandate, but our core goal is to ensure that the institutions and checks and balances that have been the foundation of our republican democracy for generations are preserved ,and that they are improved.

We do litigation work, but we also do a lot of legislative advocacy, coalition building around good ideas for protecting and improving democracy, and some communications campaigns, that sort of stuff.

But you know, while our work takes a number of forms and has over the last several years, our primary objective this year is making sure that all eligible voters are able to vote, that those votes are counted, and that the candidate who, or candidates who receive the most votes are able to take office peacefully.

- That's a broad goal, and a needed goal for a democracy.

So there are about four or five issues that are controversial, that make people question the voting rules, both Republicans and Democrats, independents.

Let's first talk about mail-in ballots.

Is there things that we need to change regarding mail-in ballots that your organization is working on to make people feel confident that they're available and that they're working?

- Well, there are a number of states that actually run their entire elections with mail-in ballots, and most security experts who study this process actually think it works quite well.

I will say however, that, you know, there are always questions about implementation.

Our elections here in North Carolina, including the absentee ballot process, are run largely by county elections officials who are non-partisan professionals who work very, very hard.

And you know, this is not just a matter of printing a ballot and sticking an envelope and sending it out.

The ballots are coded, they are individualized.

There is a lot of checking that goes into sending them out, and a lot of checking that goes into receiving and counting them.

And there are steps along the way for people to, for you know, those who have concerns about the ballots to, you know, run an extra check.

I think that most of- - So you feel confident in mail ballots, and we need to have them work.

One issue about mail-in ballots is, when should the deadline be when they arrive?

Because a lotta people wanna know the results of the national election on election night, not after election night, especially since elections are state by state.

- That's right.

I'm sure that, you know, I'm familiar with that feeling of sitting there waiting for the returns, and wondering why they can't come in faster.

We're not gonna get, in a close election, we're never gonna get really solid results on election night, that is just a fact of life in a country of, you know, over a hundred million voters.

And you know, the absentee ballots in many states, there is what's called a safe harbor for absentee ballots that allows for ballots that are received after election day, but have been clearly postmarked before election day, there's a process in place for those to be counted.

That used to be the case in North Carolina.

It is important for voters to know that is no longer true.

Even though ballots are gonna go out a little bit later this year, because of some questions about who should and should not be on them, we now have to get our ballots in by 7:30 on election night.

- So regardless of when they're postmarked, they have to be in.

So if you're doing mail-in ballots, you better understand that rule, that you may vote, but if it gets in after election day, it's not gonna be counted, where in some states it is counted.

- That's right, that's right.

But an I an important thing to note here, is the fact that those ballots all have to be in by 7:30 on election night does not mean that we are going to get results earlier this year.

And in fact, we may get results in North Carolina later this year because the legislature changed the rules about how we count early voting.

And so votes that could have been processed before election day in the past, election officials now have to wait until the polls are closed on election day to start processing those.

And instead of speeding up our results, we actually are more likely to, because of a number of changes in the law this year, get our results later than we're accustomed to.

- Boy, that's gonna be a big change, knowing as one who's been in a very close election, that meant we might not, had to make an announcement at 11:45 or midnight, regarding the results.

So that's gonna be a very interesting change in North Carolina, which most people don't realize.

What about voter rolls, updating voter rolls?

Where does your organization stand on updating voter rolls?

- I mean, that's a really, really important part of the process, the list maintenance that election officials engage in.

And our organization, you know, I myself am a lawyer.

We also have a number of technologists and data specialists on staff, who sort of monitor this list maintenance across the country.

And something I can tell you about North Carolina list maintenance, is that it is a very regular, very consistent process.

And pretty much every month, elections officials in every county in North Carolina are running through their rolls, and they are removing people who- - So North Carolina- - Either they're inactive- - Has very specific rules.

- People who haven't voted for a while, or they're removing from the rolls people who have moved or have died, et cetera.

It's a very thorough process, here in North Carolina.

- So North Carolina has very specific rules.

Let's talk about two other quick ones in the remaining minute, non-citizens having the potential to vote.

What are the things to prevent that to happen?

- Well I mean, the first thing I would say is, you know, our organization staffs the National National Task Force on Election Crises, which includes a lot of election experts, such as Michael Chertoff, who was the DHS Secretary under George W. Bush, Trey Grayson, former Republican Secretary of State in Kentucky, among others.

And they put out a statement a couple weeks back, making clear that non-citizen voting is actually not a threat to our elections this year.

That said, it is in fact illegal for non-citizens to vote in our elections.

There are three federal laws that make it illegal.

There are North Carolina laws that make it illegal.

And as with any other illegal activity, what we do is we put up guardrails around, you know, engaging in the activity.

You have to present identification when you vote there, you have to attest to your citizenship when you register.

And you know, as with any other crime, if you violate the rules, you face prosecution.

And if you happen to be an undocumented voter, you face deportation, which is an awfully steep price to pay for your one single vote.

- And one question, yes or no, will we know the results of the national presidential election on election night?

Yes or no, your prediction?

- Absolutely not.

- Wow.

Ann, thanks so much for being honest and clarifying these issues.

Thanks for being a part of "Un-Spun."

- Thank you.

- Next up, PBS Charlotte's Jeff Sonier takes "Un-Spun" on the street, to find out when voters are going to the polls this election year, and why.

- Okay, so are you an early voter, or do you wait till election day to cast your ballot?

Well, that's one of the questions we're asking here in downtown Matthews today, finding if voters in this year's election are opting for tradition or for convenience.

- I've done both, I find that I like voting early, 'cause it's casual, it's easy, and you don't have the lines or the stress of the day.

- Especially presidential elections, I try to vote early to avoid the line.

- You know, last year I did early voting, but I like pulling the lever on election day.

- And I definitely like the early voting, because I'm always scared to death that something might happen on election day and I can't get to the poll, and that's super important to me.

- [Jeff] Well, how about if something happens before election day when you've already cast your vote?

Do you feel like you're making a decision without having all the possible information?

- That made me really, really nervous when they first started doing it, and that's why I don't usually mail in my ballot, you know, far in advance.

- There are some situations that'll come out and you're like, "Oh my gosh."

So I just try to do the best that I can, and I pray about it too.

- I feel like the sides are pretty far apart, and I've known for a very long time what I'm gonna vote and who I'm gonna vote.

- [Jeff] Do you like the changes, or do you have doubts about the changes?

- Oh, I don't have any doubts about the changes.

I think that system really works well.

I think the changes are great, they're convenient for people, and they just, there should not be any excuse for not voting, ever.

- Yeah, several voters we talked with here in Matthews this week say they have more confidence in any system that requires the voter to show up in person.

But whether it's election day voting or early voting, or even mail-in voting, they say casting a ballot of some sort is better than not voting at all, Pat?

- Thanks Jeff, and what do you think about the issue?

Email us your comments on early voting and other voting changes to unspun@wtvi.org.

Or even better, send us a video, and we might use it on the air.

(bright serious music) Tonight, on our "Un-Spun" countdown, we've got the top five legal ways that our two political parties attempt to impact the way we vote.

Let's start out with number five.

Number five, place polling sites near their voters and away from the opponents.

So in other words, this is what happens.

If the Republicans are in charge of the election boards, they like more ballot access in the suburbs and the rural areas, because that tends to be Republican voters.

If the Democrats control the election board, they like more ballot access on college campuses and urban centers.

That's where Democrats tend to have the majority of votes.

So they're manipulating how easy or hard access is for the voters of North Carolina.

Number four, make it hard for third parties to get on ballot.

This is another partisan issue.

There are some third parties that hurt the Democrats, and there are some third parties that hurt the Republicans.

And what they do is they make it difficult, for example, the Democrats don't like a certain political party like the Green party on the ballot, because it takes away from the Democratic party, and therefore they'll do anything they can to stop the Green party from getting on the ballot, and the Republicans do the same thing with the Libertarian party.

Politics makes a difference in how the ballot is set.

Number three, gerrymandered political districts.

Well, this isn't any new news to this great audience.

City, county, state, and federal elections are all determined often by gerrymandered districts for city council, school board, county commissions, state legislature, and Congress and House and Senate in Washington DC.

It is the politicians that draw the lines, and when the Democrats are in control, they draw the lines favorable to Democrats.

When Republicans are in control, they draw the lines favorable to Republicans.

About 80% of races are done after the primary because of gerrymandering.

Number two, shorten or lengthen the window on when we vote.

Oh, this is a very interesting new debate.

Some of the political parties, the Democrats like a large window to vote, because more Democrats do early voting.

The Republicans like a narrow window of when to vote, because most of them vote on election day.

The big thing and big controversy right now is gonna be mail-in ballots and when the elections board actually receives them.

Some states let them be received after election day.

In North Carolina, if they're not received by election day, they're thrown out and discounted.

Number one, this is really, has to do with all the other items.

Incumbent politicians make the rules to favor people already in office.

So they're the ones doing five, four, three and two.

That's the way the world works in politics.

(bright serious music) PBS Charlotte's Jeff Sonier joins me now for a one-on-one.

- See what I got here?

It's an actual mail-in ballot.

It took me five minutes to register for it.

Got it in about a week.

- Wow.

- I'm not sure if I'm gonna use it, but I wanted to refer to it.

- And this is gonna be the problem up in the mountains, because of the storm.

- Yeah, when did this become normal?

Was it after COVID, when people kind of accepted the fact that, "Yeah, mail-in vote voting, I can deal with that."

- Actually voting was primarily meant for the military.

If the military was overseas, especially during Vietnam, they wanted to give those people a chance to vote.

So they set up this system to do mail-in voting.

Then it was set up for people who had to travel a lot, and you had to give a reason why you do, are asking for a mail-in vote.

But now, really no reason has to be given.

You just request it and you will get it.

- Yeah, we had more than a million mail-in votes in 2020.

Does mail- - By the way, I do wanna say, there's a little miscommunications, and sometimes it's done by the Republican party.

Some people might get two or three mail-in ballots, but they only accept one, because it's tied to your address, and your voting record.

So if you send in another one, it won't count.

So there's some misinformation out there regarding absentee voting.

- With so many more mail-in ballots, does it open the door for manipulation, or you know, other kinds of voter fraud or whatever?

- I think the biggest danger with this is that you can get party activists to collect or bundle these.

It's against the law to have other people collect them and fill them out for you, and that's the danger of the drop box, is there are people going to the retirement homes and going, "Here, let me have your ballot and I'll fill it out for you," and I'll collect them all on this floor at a retirement center, and then mail them in.

You don't want other people filling out the ballot for you because someone could manipulate people who don't know they're being manipulated.

That's the danger, and that's why it's against the law in North Carolina.

By the way, it's legal in California and three other states.

- Wow.

Well, let's talk about early voting.

I've got results from the Carolina Journal poll from September, on election day 51% of the Trump voters say they're gonna vote on election day.

Only 29% of the Harris supporters.

If you go to early voting, 45% of the Trump supporters say that's when they're gonna vote, but 64% of Harris supporters say they're gonna go early in person.

And the absentee mail-in, it's almost two to one, again in favor of Harris.

Why the difference?

Why do Democrats vote early?

Why do Republicans vote on election day?

- Because the Democrats have a known, very successful ground operation, where they literally have people's names listed and they check mark who's voted, and they'll actually go pick them up in buses and take them to the precinct.

And then once they vote, they've checked that this person's vote, and they'll go pick up more people.

Their money is on the ground.

The Republican's money is having people work at, they have specific polls on election day.

The real debate about this is not really about early voting.

It's when you count the votes on election night, because some states count the early votes first and the election day votes second.

Some states reverse that, and therefore there's this controversy when either Trump or Biden, or now Trump or Harris get ahead.

It might be determined, well, whose votes were counted first?

The early voting, which tends to be more Democratic, or the election day voting, which tends to be more Republican.

But it's interesting now, Republicans are pushing early voting more than they ever have.

- Yeah, so how does early voting change a campaign's timing, it's events, it's spending?

It's gotta be a different, you know, a different dynamic when you're voting in October, in some cases at the end, you know, early or late September.

- Well, one thing we've learned already, the October surprises are coming in September, so it'll have a bigger impact on voting, early voting.

The other thing is commercials are starting in August now, when they used to only start after Labor Day.

So it's making a huge difference on the communications.

The mail you get at your house is coming earlier and earlier and earlier because of early voting.

- How does it affect local races?

When you shrink a race, the time that it takes to run a race, does it make it easier for local candidates?

Does it affect the outcome of local candidates?

- Actually, the dilemma for local races is they're forgotten.

You're getting so much material at your house, all these mailings to try to get local races, give them name ID, it's clutter to most voters.

So you get all this information or all the commercials that are on TV, all of a sudden you run a city council commercial or a state legislative commercial, you're in between all these other presidential commercials, and it's almost wasted money at that point in time.

- Yeah, all right, I wanna change gears and talk a little bit about last week's vice presidential debate.

We didn't get a chance to talk about it last week because of our storm coverage, but let's take a look at a clip of some of what we saw last week.

(bright serious music) - If you're listening tonight, this breaks your heart.

- Senator?

- Tim, first of all, I didn't know that your 17-year-old witnessed a shooting, and I'm sorry about that- - I appreciate that.

- And Christ have mercy.

It is awful.

- Senator Vance, you still have 23 seconds there.

Do you wanna answer, where- - Can I have it?

- Governor, we will get to you in a moment, but Senator?

- Well, I've enjoyed tonight's debate and I think there was a lot of commonality here, and I'm sympathetic to mis-speaking on things and I think I might have with the senator, but- - Me too, man.

- I think this is the conversation they want to hear.

And I think there's a lot of agreement, but this is one that we are miles apart on.

- We are gonna shake hands after this debate and after this election, and of course I hope that we'll win, and I think we're gonna win.

But if Tim Waltz is the next vice president, he'll have my prayers, he'll have my best wishes, and he'll have my help whenever he wants it.

(bright serious music) - Wow, so we had humor, we had civility, we even had some genuine kindness in there.

Why was the VP debate so different than the presidential debate?

- It could have been because the undecided voter is sick of the lack of civility.

And they were trying to reach out that that two to four to 5% of people going, "I don't like either candidate, I don't like this name calling.

I don't like this meanness."

They were both showing, I think a sincere personality.

And that's how most politicians treat each other in debates in our past history.

I know that's how I treated my opponents in probably over 30 or 40 debates that I've had.

We shook hands, we complimented each other.

In fact, afterwards we might even go out and have a beer.

But you know what's, the consultants are saying about this right now?

- I was gonna ask you about that, what's behind the scenes.

They're looking at what happened, they're looking at the polls, but they're also, I'm assuming, wondering if it helped them or hurt them.

- Well, the consultants are saying something or thinking something, but they're not telling their bosses.

- What's that?

- They're not telling their bosses that the VP candidates did a better job than them, and they're not gonna dare tell them.

But I think the polls are showing it because both the VP candidates, their approval ratings went up.

- Well, the campaigns had something to do with these performances.

Was this a way to kinda balance the scales, to get back on the issues, since the main candidates seemed to not be sticking to the issues?

- I think some of the practice sessions were to be civil, but I also think it was because of these two individuals.

It came naturally to them.

And I commend both of them for bringing back more of the traditional debate, and actually talking about content.

Whether I agreed with them or not, it was civil, as you said in the introduction.

- Okay, so this debate was on October 1st, the VP debate, and it may be the last debate we have in this campaign, apparently it will be.

Is that again because of early voting, there's no reason to go back and have another one?

- I think that's part of the reason.

And part of the reason might be, there is so much emphasis on this one debate, that one mess-up in a two-hour debate, either by the candidates or by the commentators, which is a big issue too, could make a difference in the election.

And these people who are running the campaigns, they don't wanna gamble on that.

They would rather determine their commercials having an impact on the results of this election.

- High risk.

- Stick with their message.

And by the way, that's what both these VP candidates did.

They stayed on message.

- Yeah, high risk and high reward.

Thanks for your insight, Governor, and that's this week's one-on-one.

(bright serious music) - In election year, what we see are the rallies, the commercials, the news coverage of the campaigns.

But what both parties don't want you to see is what's going on behind the scenes.

Here in North Carolina, Democrats who run the State Board of Elections stall and stonewall to keep legitimate third party candidates off the ballot, so they won't draw votes away from Democratic candidates, and Republicans who run the state legislature redraw the maps and rewrite the lines to make winning seats in Washington and Raleigh easier for GOP candidates.

Both sides are using their power to impact the election, manipulating the rules to help decide who you can or can't vote for.

It's all legal, but it's not always a fair fight.

It's more like gambling in Vegas.

Sometimes you get lucky, but the house always wins.

American politics will always be political.

Is it a perfect system?

No.

But is it still the best system in the world?

Yes.

And it's the only system we've got.

We're an imperfect union with an imperfect elections process, but let's be more transparent about those flaws, okay?

And let's accept the legal results of that process, flaws and all, on election day.

That's the reality as I see it.

I hope you'll come back next week as we explore the politics of counting votes on election night.

The election fight is just getting started.

Both parties are already lining up their lawyers for a possible legal battle over who wins the White House.

That's on our next "Un-Spun."

We'll tell you what politicians are thinking but not saying, goodnight folks.

(bright serious music) - [Announcer] A production of PBS Charlotte.