- We have got another great show coming up for you on American Black Journal, our black church in Detroit series.

We're gonna examine the prophetic voice of the church.

As the nation struggles with issues that are harming African-Americans, we're gonna have a frank discussion about the church's role in calling out society's ills and in protecting the narrative surrounding the Black community.

You don't wanna miss this show.

Stay where you are.

American Black Journal starts right now.

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(upbeat music) - Welcome to American Black Journal.

I'm your host, Steven Henderson.

Today we're continuing our series on the Black church in Detroit, which is produced in partnership with the Ecumenical Theological Seminary and with the Charles H. Wright Museum of African-American History.

In the Bible, the church is called on to be a prophetic voice, or in other words, to act as God's voice here on earth.

Today, in that biblical tradition, preachers are expected to address issues that harm marginalized people such as discrimination and the Supreme Court's decision, for instance, to end affirmative action in higher education.

I spoke with Reverend Cindy Rudolph of Oak Grove AME Church, and Bishop Charles Ellis III of Greater Grace Temple about the power of the prophetic voice of the Black church.

We are in a rare time, I think, where people are showing up on Sundays hoping not just to have somebody help 'em make sense of what's going on, but to give them hope about what's going on.

So I'm really curious for both of you how that plays out in your work.

Does a time like this put even more pressure on you to talk about, to deal with, to help your congregations think about all of these these cultural and social and political issues that are going on in our community?

Bishop Ellis, I'll start with you.

- I think that people come not just to hear a word from the Lord, but I believe that a word from the Lord should encompass various arenas of life.

Jesus said, "I have come that you might have life and that you might have it more abundantly."

And I believe that that abundant is in the physical as well as the spiritual realm.

And so I think it is our obligation to make sure that our parishioners and everybody that comes on Sunday morning, that they are hearing a mixture of what it takes to make it to heaven as well as what it takes to be successful in this world right here on earth.

- Reverend Rudolph.

- So I think that when people come to church on Sunday morning, they are looking for a word from the Lord.

And if we look at the biblical tradition in terms of the word that came from the Lord, it was often not only an encouraging word to say this is how you can get through light or this is how things can get better.

But oftentimes it was a prophetic word, which sometimes would include a word of correction and a word that would sometimes speak truth to power.

If we look at the biblical tradition, the prophetic tradition, we look at prophets as people who God called apart.

He set them apart, and he called them to ministry in ways that would challenge the status quo.

And so oftentimes they were called to address monarchs and people in positions of power to call them out for any sort of societal ills.

Oftentimes, when we looked at prophets like Micah and Amos and Jeremiah and others, they addressed the rulers that were in power about injustice and things that were hurting people on an everyday basis.

And so as pastors, we have the privilege of shepherding people who oftentimes are dealing with policies that are harmful to them.

And as pastors, it is our honor, our right and our privilege to address those policies, so that people can receive a word of encouragement.

And likewise, we're calling out the societal ills that we see.

- Yeah, so I would love for both of you to talk about some of the things that you find yourself called to address, to deal with.

In your Sunday sermons right now, there's so much going on in the news and so many things that affect our community.

What are your congregations hearing from you, Bishop Ellis?

- I would like to think that we are being as vocal and as vibrant with the clarion call to social justice as we are to religious freedoms.

I would hope and think that we, I would hope and think that the the civil rights ministerial and clergy and religious men and women of that day would look and see what we are speaking now.

And I would hope that they would be proud.

I hope that they would say they are carrying that torch in the manner in which it should be carried.

Certainly we have a lot more luxuries probably than they had.

It's a different season, it's a different time, that's in every arena.

I'm sure that baseball players that would wake up from the grade and see what what those individuals are making now and still striking out as much as they, they would say, "Oh my God, we were born out of due season."

So that is what it is.

I'm here at a convention and I just paid at the airport coming to St. Louis, I paid $7 for a pop and for a bag of chips.

And now that I'm 65, I said, I remember when that cost 15 cents.

The pop cost a dime and the chips cost 5 cents.

- 5 cents, right?

- $7 for a pop and some chips.

Are you kidding me?

So, that is what it is because you know, if you're born in a different time if you're born in a different day, pay scales are very much different.

And you know, people appreciate, value what you do a little bit more than what they did sometimes much more than what they did before.

But I would hope, Stephen, that those mothers and fathers of the Civil Rights movement in the religious community and in the faith-based community, I would hope that they would look and be proud of this generation, our generation, to carry that torch and to still get people a relevant word spiritually that they can fight against the spiritual wickedness in high places.

And the rulers of the darkness of this world, as well as helping people to know the functionalities of this world is something that you must participate in to be a part of the American dream.

- Yeah, yeah.

Reverend Rudolph.

- So on any given Sunday, you may hear a sermon from me that has to include some level of social justice preaching.

And so when we see all that's going on in our nation and our world today, we see that there is a very targeted attack on the rights of those who are marginalized and disenfranchised and it disproportionately impacts people of African descent.

With that said, as a pastor, I must address that, I must call that out.

If I look at the biblical model of Jesus, Jesus was constantly challenging the status quo.

He went into the temple and turned over the tables of the money changers and those who were buying and selling.

And that wasn't simply because there was buying and selling going on in the house of God.

He said, "This is a house of prayer and you've made it a den of robbers."

People were being ripped off in the house of God.

And so anytime Jesus saw injustice, he spoke out against that injustice.

And so when we look at the policies on affirmative action, when we look at the assault on voting rights, when we look at economic exploitation and all of those things that impact our parishioners on a day-to-day basis, we must address those issues.

We must call out the powers that be and we must advocate for change.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- So I know that there's always gotta be some kind of I guess, sensibility about not making a sermon or the church experience for people overly political, right?

This is not a political exercise in its nature.

At the same time, as both of you're pointing out, politics and culture and social activity creep into the realm of the sermons that you have to give given that biblical tradition.

But I think, again we live in a really extraordinary time.

Things are not like they normally are.

And so I'm just gonna throw a name out there and ask you both to talk about how you deal with this person and his effect on African Americans, Donald Trump, right?

He was the 45th president of the United States.

He would like to be the 47th president of the United States, run again next year or so he says.

I mean, this is somebody who has really changed the game of politics, changed the way we talk about it changed the way we think about it.

I wonder if he's also had that effect in the church in the pulpit.

Is he challenging the way that you have to talk about these things with your congregations, so you can keep up that biblical tradition?

But then again, of course, not get into explicit politics.

Reverend Rudolph, I'll start with you this time.

- So I never feel as though I'm talking too much politics because with every message, even though it might touch on that which is political, there's always a much larger spiritual picture.

I'm always going to give people a sense of hope.

I'm always gonna make sure I'm talking more about God than I'm talking about humanity.

But we have to touch on those topics.

With regard to Donald Trump, he has come up in many of my sermons because of the fact that this is a man who from the time he announced that he was running from president, was very divisive in his comments.

He has said very hateful things about all sorts of groups.

And his policies as well have been very harmful to Black and brown people.

They've been very harmful to marginalized people, but I think most of all he has created a culture of division like never before.

And we see that being duplicated not only by other political leaders, but other parts of the world even.

We see this sort of culture, this vitriolic culture where people are pitted against one another.

And we have to recognize that God calls us to love one another.

God calls us to do justice, love, mercy, and walk humbly.

And so when he says things like America First, that is antithetical to everything that the Bible teaches us.

God teaches us that we have to be concerned for one another.

And so we have to call out those things.

All of those policies that he often preaches are not in line with the word of God.

And it's our duty to emphasize that.

- Yeah, yeah.

- Reverend Ellis, how often would I hear you talking about Donald Trump at Greater Race?

- Well, when he was the President, you heard me talking a lot.

I kind of don't, sometimes you can't give somebody too much attention, because sometimes they love attention and some people say, I don't care what you say about me, just get my name right, and get my name, especially in the political arena.

But I agree with everything that my sister has said, but I will share with you that, you have to speak truth to power and truth crush to earth is always going to rise again.

And I think that what she spoke was absolutely correct.

It was absolutely true.

And when I think about many of, again, his plans, I don't wanna be redundant, because she made it very plain, very clear.

And I thought she covered it well that the answered the question well, or her response was absolutely on point.

But I would say that I thought he was a very dangerous person, a very dangerous person, because he was able to unleash individuals to be comfortable with insensitivity, with disdain for people just because they didn't look like them.

I mean, it was an Adolf Hitler season as far as I was concerned.

In other words, just because, call you out your name and listen he did it to everybody that was standing on stage with him I think 16 other people in those primaries.

And you kind of saw what you had coming.

And you have to be careful what you ask for.

I preached a message, Dr. Rudolph, during the Easter holiday, be careful what you asked for.

They said, do you want Jesus or do you want Barabbas?

They said, give us Barabbas, and guess what?

You got it.

You've been dealing with him and that spirits ever since.

And for him to make people feel comfortable in a separatist attitude, mentality, that's everything against what Jesus stood for.

And I remember when Jesus talked about your neighbor, love your neighbor as yourself, and people were looking for an out.

They said, well, who is my neighbor?

Because they were hoping he would say, well, you know those people within the two block radius of where she live.

And Jesus said, "Lemme tell you about this man that fell among thieves on the Jericho road."

And he gave the three de demonstrations.

The priest came by, the Levite came by and then the Samaritan came by.

Now I'm asking you, and Jesus always had a way of asking you a question to your question and made you say, nevermind.

- Right.

- Nevermind.

I'm good.

But yeah, I think that we have to, you would hear me when he was in office, I would use his words.

And now let's talk about that.

What do you think about that?

Because I've learned Dr. Rudolph, the best way for you to challenge a person is with their own words.

In other words, I'm not gonna put words in your mouth.

I'm going to repeat what you said.

Now you can say, "Oh, I didn't mean that" but that's what you said.

So I sometimes I hear what you say and I'm not interpreting it.

I'm just telling you that's what you said.

Now maybe you need to clarify that.

Well, "I didn't mean that," but what did you mean?

Because I don't think that we let statements be made and not challenge them because statements are very important.

And somebody says, sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me.

Well, oh, words can kill a person.

They can kill your dreams.

They can kill your aspirations.

They might not kill you physically.

And in this case, even as the Georgia Republican election officials said, this man is speaking the kind of hate that he's going to get somebody killed.

That's what they said, Rasperburger, or whoever.

His superiority his supervisor was whatever the case is.

And we've seen, I think, didn't he just put the former president Obama, Barack Obama's address out and somebody showed up on his block?

So we have to call those things out because words can be very damaging, especially the higher up you are.

- Yeah, yeah.

I wanna throw another term out and talk about the way in which it has become kind of a hot button in political and social circles, but that it has a very different meaning inside the church, the term woke.

We have a potential presidential candidate next year, Ron DeSantis, who's the governor of Florida, who's pretty much made his campaign about not being woke.

And he's talking about Florida being, engaged in battle with the idea of wokeness.

I see on social media all the time.

People use that word as an insult.

Talk about progressive politics and Black politics.

Inside the church though, that means something really different.

And it's important we see that sometimes where the things that we have in our religious sensibilities end up being kind of taken and warped outside the church.

Reverend Rudolph, I'll start with you again to talk about that.

- That's a really good question, Steven.

Thank you for that.

The term woke started in the Black community and as you mentioned, it has been warped and corrupted.

And I think that when politicians like DeSantis use it, it's a dog whistle and a racist term.

I think he's beginning to paint it with a broader brush that would include other marginalized groups.

However, I think that when they say it, they're very intentional about their attack on us as well as other groups.

I have issue with that because being woke is about a sense of awareness.

Why would you not want to have a sense of awareness about what's going on?

They have corrupted it.

And to try to make it sound like it's about, ideologies that threaten other groups.

That is nonsense.

That is zero sum thinking that says that, my advancement is your decrease, which is nonsense.

My advancement does not have to mean your decrease.

And that's part of how they're able to pit one American against another American and one group against another group by this sort of hateful divisive rhetoric that they are spewing each and every day.

And it's a shame, and it's very intentional when they borrow words from our community.

And so, I call that out as well.

- Yeah, yeah.

Bishop Ellis, this idea that the things that we share in our community can be used against us really does call, I think, the Black church to a position of defense, of trying to protect African Americans from that kind of behavior.

But also in changing, I guess the narrative around what it means to be African-American in America and the struggles that are associated with it.

Woke and theft of woke is kind of an example of that as well.

- Steven, listen, it is always habit.

They take everything that is a rallying cry for us.

And then they tried to metamorphosize it into something else, negative, diametrically opposed to who we are and what we are rallying about.

And now we become quiet.

We almost shut down on, "Oh man, don't, don't mention that because they're going to think," I said, no, no, no, no.

You speak what you speak and you explain why you're speaking that, I share that with my church.

When some black people, some of my brothers and sisters across the country, man, "I don't use the phrase Black Lives Matter anymore.

All lives matter."

I said listen Black Lives Matter became a threat to this country.

Its the answer about it.

And if you look at many of those Black Lives Matter, Black Lives Matter marches, you saw just as many Caucasians and other ethnicities than you did African Americans, because it was a move of people, not just Black folk.

So I said, "Listen, I'm gonna always follow Black Lives."

If I can't say black lives matter, if black lives matter, nobody else's lives matter.

I mean, you gotta love yourself first.

Are you kidding me?

And when it comes to this woke, I just addressed that with my church.

I said, listen, y'all, I said stay woke.

Be proud of being woke.

'Cause when we go to sleep, sometimes we end up in chains.

And in the place that we're not familiar with.

I think about "12 years a Slave" and that story.

And he got drunk and next thing you know, he wakes up and he's boarding a ship headed to a place of slavery.

You better not go to sleep because when you go to sleep, people are staying awake and they're making decisions that are detrimental to your future.

and your ability to have good success.

- Yeah, yeah.

- We've got just a few minutes left.

I wanna have both of you talk about what you're thinking about as we get closer to the next Sunday that you'll be giving sermons.

What are the things that are jumping out to you that will have to be part of that biblical tradition of making sure that you're addressing the things that are happening to us?

Bishop Ellis?

- Yeah, I think that I'm gonna be focusing on this Black on Black crime.

I'm gonna be focusing on these young men that have no, and as a lot of people know, I'm moving into the aging out of foster care space in a major way.

And that's where I feel my retirement is.

And I'm gonna roll up my sleeves and really go to work to try to make a difference in young men's lives.

And probably it's gonna be young women as well, but we're getting started with young men, 18 to 24.

And I would say to you, Steven that I think that we have to do this because, yes, while there's some systemic problems that have been forced upon us down through the years and decades, there's still accountability that we must have for ourselves.

And at the end of the day, we cannot join in with the enemy in defeating ourselves and destroying our own communities.

So I'm gonna be talking about, hey y'all listen.

Yes, we need to call them out, but we also need to put ourselves in check as well.

- Yeah, wow.

Really, really powerful message there.

Reverend Rudolph.

- So we're in a season at my church called The Season of Forward Focus.

And we have been looking at how we move forward without being held back by the past.

I started the series with talking about Sankofa, how we move forward by looking at and learning from the past and how we bring forward those things that are helpful to us and lead those things that are harmful.

And with that said, the only way that we can really move forward is to make sure that we are doing that which is necessary to uplift our community, to outreach to those who are in need, to be concerned about the least of these.

We must vote in every election at every level.

Otherwise it's all for naught.

If you sit around and complain and you're not voting, you forfeit your right to complain, because you're not doing what is necessary to advocate and advance change.

And so those are some of the things that we're constantly talking about as well as, as I mentioned earlier, the attack on voting rights.

The affirmative action moves because it's not just in the colleges and universities that they're looking to ship affirmative action.

It's also all across the board.

So we need to be aware with regard to those things as well.

- Yeah, right.

We need to stay woke.

- That's right.

- Absolutely - All right.

Bishop Ellis and Reverend Rudolph, always really great to have these conversations with you.

Thanks so much for joining us on the American Black Journal.

- It's always good being with you and thank you for considering to have me.

- Thank you for having us both.

- That is gonna do it for us this week.

You can find out more about our guests at americanblackjournal.org.

Plus you can connect with us anytime on Facebook and on Twitter.

Take care and we'll see you next time.

(soft music) - [Narrator] From Delta Faucets to Behr Paint, Masco Corporation is proud to deliver products that enhance the way consumers all over the world experience and enjoy their living spaces.

Masco, serving Michigan communities since 1929.

Support also provided by the Cynthia & Edsel Ford Fund for Journalism at Detroit Public TV.

- [Narrator] The DTE Foundation proudly supports 50 years of American Black Journal in covering African-American history, culture, and politics.

The DTE Foundation and American Black Journal partners in presenting African-American perspectives about our communities and in our world.

- [Narrator] Also brought to you by Nissan Foundation and viewers like you.

Thank you.

(soft music)