The following is an original production of AZPM News.

Welcome to a special edition of The Press Room.

We're digging deep with a very special panel of journalists who cover the Arizona-Sonora border on a regular basis, dealing with homeland security, the border wall, immigration, and could the United States really send troops into Mexico to fight drug cartels?

All of that and more.

I'm David Lee, and The Press Room starts now.

[Music] Welcome to The Press Room.

I'm AZPM News Director David Lee, and today we have a very special show for you.

We've assembled four experts on the border, and we're going to focus on that for this entire show.

But before we get into the actual questions, we want to introduce you to everybody, starting off with Rafael Carranza from the AZ Luminaria.

Yes, I'm an investigative reporter there working at Arizona Luminaria in collaboration with ProPublica.

I've been covering the U.S.-Mexico borderlands for the past 15 years on and off, particularly focused on southern Arizona.

Okay, joining us for a very special first time with us, Melissa del Bosque, who is co-founder of The Border Chronicle.

Yes, hi, thank you for having me.

Yes, I run The Border Chronicle, and I've been reporting on the border since the late 90s, so for a long time.

And we cover the entire border, actually.

And I spent many, many years on the Texas border, and now very happy to be here on the Arizona border.

Thanks for being with us.

From Arizona Daily Star, Emily Bregel.

Yes, thanks, David.

I'm so happy to be here, and I cover the border and immigration, so it could be immigration policy, southern Arizona generally, as well as the state of Sonora and current events and what's going on in Sonora.

Okay, and covering the border for us, Danyelle Khmara for AZPM.

Hi, yeah, so I also cover the border and immigration, and I have been covering that for AZPM for the last three years, and before that, I covered that topic for about two, three years at the Arizona Daily Star.

All right, well, thank you all for being with us.

Melissa, we'll start with you.

We've seen other parts of the United States now having to start to deal with ICE and Homeland Security a little bit more.

However, being a border state, Tucson here in particular, it's not new.

How have things evolved over the years here?

Yeah, well, you know, Border Patrol is part of the Department of Homeland Security, which was created after 9-11.

That's when we saw the sort of reformulation of ICE and Border Patrol and Customs.

And since then, so it was hastily put together, the Department of Homeland Security, and there's never really been the proper oversight of the agents there, and it's been an issue for many, many years, especially for border communities, because as we all know, Border Patrol agents are ubiquitous in Border Patrol, and I'm sorry, in border communities, and we'll often even respond to accidents and things like that.

So, you know, they're in the community, and many border communities are where Border Patrol agents are recruited as well, because people are bilingual.

And so over the years, there have been various issues with Border Patrol.

Impunity has been a big problem.

Fatal shootings have been a big problem.

I've been reporting on, you know, the Department of Homeland Security since it was created.

And unfortunately, many of the stories I've done have been about fatal shootings, including Border Patrol agents shooting into Mexico and killing people there from the US side.

And in fact, there's been 342 deaths since 2010, and 76 of those have been fatal shootings, and there's never been an actual successful prosecution for a fatal Border Patrol shooting.

Emily, you recently did some reporting about kind of an uptick of, you know, interrogations with folks going back and forth on a daily basis.

That's right.

There are a number of new things going on at the border, and this came right before Christmas.

We heard about ICE agents actually just north of some of the ports of entry, trying to talk to people as they go into Mexico.

So as they leave the US versus normally, we have our port officials talking to people as they come in.

But this was new, and there was some reporting that it had to do with trying to kind of grab people who might be going home to visit family for the holidays and boost ICE's deportation numbers.

But it's not that typical that you'd see ICE agents at the border.

Typically, they're operating in the interior.

But we kind of are seeing a mix up of different branches and where they're going right now.

I feel like that is one of the changes we're seeing here, that now we have this kind of military presence at the border, at least, and they're not, sounds like they don't actually have all that much to do right now.

And then we have ICE continuing to operate, but Border Patrol increasingly going into the interior of the country, where you used to mostly just see ICE.

So it is this kind of weird shift of the location where you'd expect to see different agencies.

And I think that's certainly contributing.

The presence of ICE made a lot of people nervous in the Nogales area.

It seems like it's hit or miss who they're picking, but it certainly seemed they were using racial profiling and seeking out people who appeared to be Hispanic.

And at the same time, this is unrelated to ICE agents being posted there.

But on December 26, CBP was supposed to begin.

And I have not heard that this has actually started in Nogales yet, but they were supposed to be starting biometric facial scans of people both as they leave and enter the country.

And that's just for non-citizens.

I checked in with someone recently, and they have not seen that happening yet, but possibly at other ports of entry, that's happening.

Danyelle, in your recent reporting, what are the families feeling on either side of the border right now?

Yeah.

So families who might be mixed status families, where maybe a couple of parents or even one of the parents might be undocumented, maybe even sometimes a couple of children are US citizens, maybe another child has DACA.

A lot of those families who I've spoken to, and even just community members and friends and people I know from living here in Tucson, are feeling really nervous.

And people are feeling nervous to go out and do fun community activities, go to the grocery store, things like that.

But that said, even despite what Emily was just talking about and what she reported on, people are still crossing the border legally every day.

I think we have a couple of million people crossing the border every day who are visiting family--sorry, excuse me, not every day, every month, visiting family, shopping, going to work.

So I think that sort of the risk of people feeling at risk, even when they do have their legal paperwork in order to be able to cross back and forth is heightened.

But nonetheless, people are still going about their daily lives because they don't really have a choice.

Rafael, if you had to share with other parts of the country, what makes the Arizona-Sonora border so unique?

What would you share with them?

I think that there's a lot of similarities in terms of a lot of these border communitie have a lot of things in common and sense that they tend to have a lot of strong economic family cultural ties that span both sides of the border.

I think here in Arizona specifically, it's been sort of a testing ground for many years where CBP would attempt to try out a new program along the border and then attempt to launch it elsewhere.

So we've seen that Arizona stand out for that.

It's also some of the most rugged parts of the U.S.-Mexico border lands.

And I think that that kind of comes into the conversation, especially when we talk about physical security and how the U.S.

government is able to secure the border.

That's been a big topic of conversation.

And as a result, Arizona has become almost a factor of the most fortified state of the four border states here in the U.S.

One of the things that has been going on, President Trump has talked a little bit about sending some form of troops into Mexico.

Emily, would this be a short-term strategy or something along the lines of what's happening with Venezuela?

So, well, it's hard.

The short answer is it's hard to tell.

I recently did a story on this and talked to five different experts who have been thinking about this question for a while since Trump last year started talking about wanting to designate cartels as foreign terrorist organizations, which he did do in February.

There's a misconception that that gives legal backing for some kind of strike in Mexico against those FTOs, as you may call them.

But one of the experts I talked to said that is not the case.

There's additional kind of civil and criminal ways that you could go against these groups, but it doesn't explicitly authorize a strike.

That being said, we see with what happened in Venezuela that the Trump administration is not bound by international or domestic law when they're deciding whether or not to do these things.

So a lot of the experts I talked to just said, you know, it wouldn't make sense strategic to do this.

There's a lot of collaboration that is going on already between the U.S.

and Mexico and some real progress that's being made.

But at the same time, it's hard to judge what--it's hard to predict what the Trump administration is going to do using these traditional measures because they're just so unpredictable.

Yeah, Melissa, what would be the fallout if some form of troops were to go to Mexico for an unspecified amount of time?

Oh my gosh, so much fallout.

I mean, I was just listening to Emily and thinking, you know, in 2006, Mexico deployed its military to fight narco traffickers.

And the military have been there in Mexico fighting narco traffickers since then.

After Mexico deployed the military, there was a huge spike in murders and killings and violence because the military are not trained to be working amongst a civilian population.

Really, if you want to go after drug cartels, you need to go after the money.

You need to do investigations.

You need to, you know, go after the accountants and the banks.

It's not through military force.

The U.S.

already has the DEA, the CIA, lots of operatives in Mexico.

The U.S.

spent billions backing Mexico's militarization in its battle against the narco traffickers.

So it would be a catastrophe, I think, if he sent the military into Mexico.

Danyelle, you know, Mexican President Claudia Sheinbaum says, "We don't need your help.

Thank you very much."

However, if President Trump decides to send some form of troops at all, can she even really do anything?

Yeah, I mean, I think that is a very complicated question.

I don't think that the situation could really be like Venezuela.

Mexico is a neighboring country.

We have really robust trade agreements.

So, you know, she has been working on having really diplomatic communications with President Trump since he started his second term, before he started his second term, since he was elected.

And I think that she is working on trying to figure out how to talk to him in a way that they can come to an agreement.

Will she have to make concessions?

Possibly.

But, you know, getting back to like what Melissa was saying, and I was thinking about this when Emily was talking, Mexico already has their military.

I mean, if you go to Mexico, if you're just driving on the highways, you can see that they're very present.

And so it's kind of hard for me to imagine exactly what the American military would even be doing there or how that collaboration would work or what that would look like.

So I think this is a very complicated question.

And as far as whether or not she could do anything, I think she is trying to do something right now with diplomatic conversations.

And, you know, I guess we're in unprecedented territory.

And I guess we'll see how that continues.

Rafael, I want to quickly just get to you real quick.

Would it make a difference to the drug cartels if the United States are there?

I think something that we have seen pretty consistently along the U.S.-Mexico border is that the cartels are willing to adapt and, you know, they will shift where the demand is if there are new methods that perhaps might work better.

We've seen a big shift, for example, in the last 20 years or so in the quantities of drugs that are smuggled.

Like it used to be marijuana that used to be the bulk shipment.

But then we've had so many states that have decriminalized marijuana.

And so then the cartels have then shifted to smaller, more potent drugs like fentanyl, like meth.

And so I think that that kind of shows their ability to adapt to the circumstances, different circumstances on the ground.

So, you know, I think as long as there's a big appetite for these drugs, you know, they'll be willing to kind of go whatever lengths to to follow up with that demand.

But I'll also add that, you know, one of the roles or one of the cards that Mexico can play is its participation in fighting these cartels as well or in stopping migrant flows.

And, you know, if the Mexican government decides to halt all cooperation with the U.S., you know, those are areas where we could see some developments there, especially since, you know, a lot of the border enforcement keeps going farther, farther south.

It used to be the Mexico-Guatemala border.

Now it's also the Darién Gap in Panama.

And so I think U.S.

intervention in some of these countries could also put that at risk.

OK, one of the things that everybody has been talking about for years is the border wall itself, the wall.

Emily, back in December, you guys reported a little bit on this $1.5 billion to Arizona to help build out some more of the wall infrastructure, both the primary wall, secondary wall and technology.

So, yeah, that $1.5 billion is the latest contract that went to Fisher Industries, who's getting a number of these border wall contracts.

And they're problematic and have had a difficult environment record.

They have ties to the Trump administration.

So that's a bit of a controversy on its own.

But, yeah, the latest contract was for $1.5 billion.

And this comes soon after they began work on the San Rafael Valley.

The grassland there that are so important environmentally and yet have very few migrant crossings in this area.

So we are seeing a proliferation of these contracts.

And when the latest construction is completed that they've just announced, my understanding is that it'll be an uninterrupted wall from Yuma to Texas save for the Tohono O'odham reservation and so forth for animals trying to cross through there.

It's environmentally devastating And also a lot of people point out ineffective.

The people can cut through using a battery powered hand tool.

You can cut through the wall.

There's ways around it.

There are certain places that cannot be permanently closed off because of the water flows that go through there.

And so there's, I think, a lot of concern that there's so much money going to this, so much damage that's being done, but yet it's not actually that effective.

Rafael, there's so much new technology out there.

Is a physical, traditional wall still, I guess, a deterrent?

I think the US government, particularly, I think Customs and Border Patrol, DHS, they're trying to sell that it's not just a wall itself, that it's a wall system.

So they talk about how they're also putting in lights and sensors and all these other equipment that will allow them to have eyes on the ground, so to speak.

But I think in some of my reporting trips, when I've been down to the border, for example, in areas where they've put up lights, I think it's been common that people crossing the border from the Mexican side will go and cut the cables there.

And so there's still some challenges there, but it is something that there's a lot of investments coming towards new technologies.

There's the program that I think has been continuing in one form or another, maybe under different names, that allows, for example, Customs and Border Patrol, Border Protection, to have some of the blimps that help patrol the border.

And so there's a lot more, I think, particularly as the unmanned aerial vehicles, drones, as that technology develops further.

We've seen interest from the U.S.

government to kind of lean into some of that as well to help with their duties on the border.

Danyelle, it's also about the water issue, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I did some reporting on this with my colleague, Katya Mendoza.

And basically, we looked at some of the repercussions to the water systems from previous border wall construction.

And just as an example, in the San Bernardino Wildlife Refuge, there is an artisanal well there that has existed for likely thousands of years.

And now it needs a pump to continue running.

And, you know, there's some discrepancy on whether or not that water system was starting to dry out before or after the border wall, if it would need it anyway.

But the fact of the matter is, is that border wall construction uses millions of gallons of water for cement, for mixing cement.

That's like one of the big water uses.

It also uses water for other things like keeping down the dust while they're doing construction, things like that.

But so basically, right now in the San Rafael Valley, they're doing construction.

And because DHS is allowed to waive environmental laws in order to build these structures, they haven't done the research in order to be able to say, we have enough water here to be able to build this barrier.

So I've talked to residents, I've talked to ranchers in that area who, they're nervous what that is going to mean for their wells.

Some of them have already been dealing with wells drying up because of drought.

So how it's going to affect the local water table, people are nervous, and we just really don't know.

We don't have the data.

Okay, one of the things that is an ongoing concern is kind of humanitarian aid at the border.

And just in general, Melissa, when it comes to immigration in particular, what are we seeing in terms of the numbers going up or down and in specific people trying to seek asylum?

Well, I mean, asylum is basically all but shut down at the border.

It's pretty quiet.

So it's significantly reduced.

But as Rafael was mentioning, a lot of people are down at the Guatemalan- Mexican border in shelters down there.

And then there's people in limbo, you know, closer to the US southern border on the Mexican side as well.

So there are still people who are want to seek asylum.

But it's a lot of people are now doing a reverse migration, for instance, through the Darién Gap, because they know that they're not going to be able to seek protection here.

Danyelle, I know you've done some reporting on this as well.

What has been some of the reaction to some of the people trying to support folks down there?

Well, I will say that I have talked to people who are, like Melissa was saying, stuck on the southern side of the border who wanted to seek asylum.

And in particular, I talked to some people who are at migrant shelters that are being supportive of them, at least having a safe place to stay for now.

And these are people who might make the decision to reverse migrate.

But really, they've told me that they don't have anything to go back to, that they left dangerous situations.

And these people came to the border when, for the most part, when Biden was still in office and there was some access to asylum, they could get an appointment to get a humanitarian aid parole.

And then they could start an asylum case.

A judge would decide whether to give them asylum.

But they had at least hope that they might have access to that.

And in some of these cases, people that I talked to were even separated from family members who got access to that humanitarian parole, right before Biden left office.

And they're now waiting on the southern side of the border saying, well, my family is on the north side.

I have nothing to go back to.

And they're basically just living in a shelter, which is not really set up for, you know, long term, having purpose and living a life.

So, yeah, people, a lot of people, I think, feel in limbo and feel at a at a loss as to what to do next.

Okay.

At this point in the show, this is where we would normally have viewer questions.

But we've got four experts here on the border.

So I want to go around the room to each and each of you and ask you, what are some of the things you're hearing from the people you're reporting on or with?

What are some of the questions they're asking you?

We'll start off with Rafael.

I've been doing some reporting over the past year about the 287(g) program, which allows local police to partner with immigration officials to help make arrests.

And I think that that's been a big question that we have seen in many communities about the role of local police in helping with immigration arrests.

I think here in southern Arizona, the top law enforcement whether it's the sheriff, you know, the Tucson police chief have been pretty clear in stating that they don't want to participate in these, they don't support these immigration arrests operations that, you know, they value the work with immigrant communities to help keep communities safe and have them feel comfortable reporting crimes.

But, you know, that's something that I think is still being put to the test, especially now that we're seeing the crackdown kind of expanding to more cities.

And it does kind of put it local police departments in a place where they may be kind of caught in the middle between federal officials who are carrying out these arrests sometimes in very aggressive ways.

And then, you know, the protesters or people who are keeping tabs on their work and I think local police, you know, they're trying to figure out, you know, where they straddle that line between keeping the public safe while at the same time keeping an eye on federal law enforcement.

Okay, Melissa, quickly for you.

Yeah, I think a lot of people are asking what kind of legal restraints are on, you know, these sort of roving ICE and Border Patrol teams.

A lot of people refer to ICE, but a lot of what we're seeing is actually Border Patrol that's up there in like Minnesota, for instance.

Those are, you know, Border Patrol Strike Teams and it's led by Gregory Bovino, who was the El Centro sector chief for Border Patrol in California.

So there's a lot of confusion, I think, between ICE and Border Patrol, who's actually leading those roving patrols and do they have total immunity because that's what the White House is saying, you know, and they can just do anything with impunity or not, which is actually not the case.

Yeah, so.

-Emily?

Most of the questions I've gotten lately have to do with people asking "how can I get involved, how can I help, I feel powerless and if I do get involved, will I be safe, especially since the shooting of Renee Good in Minneapolis?"

I think there's a heightened fear among people who maybe previously felt safer in their community.

So I think that I often refer people to just the groups working in this area, Coalición de Derechos Humanos and Border Link, some of the other groups here who are training people on how to safely observe and record, express your First Amendment rights without putting yourself in danger.

Okay.

And Danyelle, just about 20 seconds here.

Yeah, I agree with all of that.

And I will just add to that list, people who have some sort of legal immigration status are now concerned, people with green cards, people with visas, they're asking, is this going to protect me from getting detained?

Okay, we could talk about this subject all day long.

But I appreciate all of your time.

Rafael Carranza, thank you very much.

Melissa del Bosque, thank you, Emily Bregel, and of course, Danyelle Khmara, thank you very much.

And thank you all for watching and listening.

I'm David Lee in The Press Room.

We'll see you next week.