- [Narrator] This is a production of PBS Charlotte.

- This week on "Unspun," the politics of problem solving.

I'll count down the top five issues that Republicans and Democrats in DC often refuse to compromise on, no matter what.

And we'll talk with one of the few US senators still willing to work with the opposing party on solving those problems, plus not respecting our police on college campuses.

That's all coming up on "Unspun" In today's America, welcome to the spin game.

Believe me, I know, I'm Pat McCrory.

When I was governor and mayor, I played the spin game.

I was played by the spin game.

But aren't we all done being spun?

Let's take the spin out of the world we're in, here on "Unspun."

(upbeat music) Good evening.

I'm Pat McCrory, and welcome to "Unspun," a show that tells you what politicians are thinking, but not saying.

This week, we're talking about the four little words that politicians are afraid to say anymore.

Let's make a deal.

In Raleigh and in Washington, compromise is now seen as a sign of weakness.

For both parties, it's a my way or the highway, but too often, that's a dead end if you're trying to get things done.

It used to be different.

You know, back in the eighties, President Reagan and Speaker, Tip O'Neill were political opposites, but they were not enemies.

There was mutual respect.

There was give and take.

They were able to put aside politics for the greater good, to solve problems.

You know, these days there's a political reality.

The moment a politician is willing to compromise to solve a problem, your own party, your own voters, your financial supporters, your neighbors and friends, and even family members often abandon you.

That's right.

We all talk about wanting politicians to work together, but the politician that actually does compromise is accused of being a traitor, being weak, not fighting for their constituents.

Here's the other political reality.

The American people are divided, therefore, we have a divided government in Washington.

So politicians have a choice, a choice whether to stay in your partisan corners and fight for your absolute beliefs and accomplish nothing, but satisfy your base and keep your job, or the other choice is this, compromise to get the votes needed for legislation to pass.

But now you may lose, not just your next general election, but even your next primary.

Joining us is one of those guys who takes a lot of heat on Capitol Hill, even from his own party for doing exactly what Reagan and O'Neill used to do, what leaders are supposed to do, solve problems.

Welcome my good friend, Senator Thom Tillis.

Thanks for joining us on "Unspun."

The purpose of this show, Senator, is to tell people what politicians are thinking, but not saying.

And the topic this week is the problem with problem solving in politics, especially in Washington.

So, Thom, what's the problem?

(Pat laughing) - Well, it's good to see you, Pat.

Yeah, the problem has a lot to do with, it's foundational, it's just relationships.

There's a lack of trust up here.

It's a hyper partisan time that we live in right now.

People are not willing to take risk.

They're afraid that they can't get ahead of a new cycle.

So even, oftentimes, when I've, you know, I've gone out on a limb on a couple of bipartisan bills.

I've talked to people, say, Thom, I completely get it.

I hope you're successful, I can't do it.

I mean, I'm either in cycle or for some other reason, they just don't think they have time to explain it before there's a consequence of the ballot box.

- When you mean in cycle, they're up for election or reelection.

- That's right, that's right.

So, you know, I mean, honestly, I use that as a calculation.

I've worked on some of the bipartisan bills.

I very seldom, if ever, go to a member who's in cycle and, the filing period for the primary's not over.

Just gotta be practical about it.

I don't want, if I get sufficient votes, I don't believe in style points.

So when I'm working on a bipartisan bill, I want enough to get it passed to the President's desk, whether that be President Trump, President Biden, or potentially President Trump again.

But there are other people that are just not willing to take that leap, I am.

- So has it changed now since you and I first got into politics where people are more afraid of the primary than they are the general elections in solving problems?

- I think so, Pat, because in our time.

we've just seen social media become the primary source for people getting their news, and people make really quick decisions.

So I think it's become very, it's become more difficult because people are using these social media platforms to really, you know, to ring a bell that you can't unring, even if it's patently false information.

I'm seeing that right now, this week, in terms of the surveillance, section 702, FISA surveillance.

We got a lot of people that are upset about me supporting reauthorization of something that's critically important to the safety and security of this nation.

And I don't begrudge people out in, you know, in North Carolina who've taken the position they have because they've been fed false information.

It's on me to explain my position and my votes, and I will.

- So a lot of it's also, and I knew this as governor, and I knew this as a city council member and mayor, it's what jersey you're wearing, and if the other jersey is for it, you've gotta be against it.

And I've seen people like you and Senator Sinema from Arizona, punished for dare talking, much less voting with someone on the other side when we have a divided government, and someone's got to come together or you do nothing.

- That's right, Pat.

And you know, that's why I feel like, you know, people have, oftentimes, when I've taken a position, one or the other, say that must have really been a hard vote.

I've been in politics, I've been in legislative politics since 2007.

I've never had a hard vote.

When I decide to vote a certain way, it's based on facts, it's based on principle, and it's based on what I think is best for the people of North Carolina, and the people of the United States.

And I'll stand by it.

So I don't believe in this concept of tough votes.

If you do your homework and you have your principles in line with the future of this great nation, it's not hard to take a vote up here that's supposedly difficult.

- So a definition of politics is often included the word, diversion.

And there are a lot of diversions that happen in Raleigh and happen in Washington where we talk about subjects that really have no impact on anything, but they're easy to talk about, and you get on cable news networks or on social media.

But then there are topics that we better solve or the next generation's in trouble.

What are the topics?

And I think I know the answer, but I want to hear from our US Senator.

What are the topics that just everyone is avoiding, but they know, behind the scenes, we better solve them.

- If I could only solve one problem in my tenure as US Senator, it's averting the fiscal crisis that's going to occur because of our debt.

My friend, Bill Cassidy's doing good work in the social security space.

But I tell you, Pat, in our lifetimes, even as old as you are, (Pat laughing) if we don't get our fiscal house in order, we are going to deal with a horrible fiscal calamity.

We're gonna deal with 25% cuts in social security benefits mandatory because we've gotta balance the books.

And what's frustrating about this, if we could have people to come to the Senate floor and exercise some political courage, we could fix this and it would be virtually a non-event for the people already on social security and Medicare.

And I hope we just have people that will have the spines to do right by it.

That's the one thing I hope in my tenure as US Senator, I'm able to be a part of.

- But even on issues like the debt or immigration, or even some of the foreign policy issues, the two parties among themselves are fighting each other and can't come to agreement.

Unlike maybe the days when Tip O'Neill and Ronald Reagan would come together, at least they knew who was behind them.

Now, the leadership doesn't even know if they can get the votes, especially in the house.

Who's behind them?

What's changed that culture in Washington?

- Again, I just think that our, the social media, the amplifiers, special interest groups, foreign actors, there are a number of people that are influencing the mood of legislators and the electorate.

And we have to look past it.

When you're at 33 trillion and rising national debt, and you see how that adds up over the next eight years, we're looking at a financial crisis by 2032, if not sooner.

And we have to write, we have to look, the American people in the eye and say there's a responsible way to do this, that lies and exaggerations from either end of the political spectrum are just that, there's a way that we can put our fiscal house in order, but it's going to require change or we're gonna have to do it in the worst possible times in the midst of a financial crisis that will have global implications.

- So when you and I worked together, you were Speaker of the House, I was governor of North Carolina, we had some tough deficit issues, $2 or $3 billion of unemployment compensation we owed the federal government.

No one knew about it, but we knew we had to pay it back.

It didn't poll at all.

But you and I would meet in the governor's mansion, by the way, you used to order way too much food, I might add, but we solved those problems.

But what's the incentive to solve problems now in DC or in Raleigh?

Or is there, are there any incentives?

- Well, Pat, it is true, I ate a lot of food, but I took 40 pounds off, I hope you do too.

(Pat laughing) The incentive to solve problems, the result.

Why are we here?

I mean, people have to ask themselves, why are we here?

I'm here to do good for North Carolinians.

I'm here to make sure that people that need social security, that need need Medicare, have it.

Other people seem to be here just to be here or to get reelected.

And that's a really pathetic, to me, that's a pathetic place to be.

That your reelection is more important than taking a vote on something that you know, in your heart and in your head is right for the American people.

I just can't do it.

- So why- - And I think other members need to step up.

- As we wrap this up in the last minute, what they know, do they actually know it?

Do they believe, both Republicans and Democrats, do they believe their own rhetoric when they're, in social media or the cable vision talk shows on the right or left?

Or do you think they're lying to themselves or what?

What is the situation?

- I think it's a combination of both.

I mean, if you take a look at it, some are just absolutely not willing to do the homework to understand just how, what a poor foundation their logic is based on.

In other cases, it's a part of a formula.

You know, they're too smart not to know, and they do it because they can say, I'm fighting for you, and then they'll go out at night and say, send 25, send 50, send $100 to fill in the blank.com because I'm the only one fighting for you.

It's a fundraising formula for some, they don't want to get caught up in the facts.

And if you look around, you know who they are.

And the thing about that, it's a bipartisan sort of a affliction up here.

- And it works.

- Both parties have people are guilty of it.

- And it works, sadly.

- Yeah.

- Thom, it's an honor to talk to you, and I do want to thank you for your service and your friendship.

- You too, Pat.

- Thanks for joining us on "Unspun" and telling us what politicians are actually thinking, but not saying.

But you're willing to do both and I appreciate it.

- Thanks.

- Next, PBS Charlotte's Jeff Sonier takes "Unspun" on the street to hear your thoughts on the politics of problem solving.

- Yeah, it's kind of surprising that so many people here in uptown Charlotte had such strong opinions about Washington's no compromise stance on so many big issues.

But maybe that's because those big issues affect so many people.

(bright music) Compromise used to be a commonplace thing.

Now it seems to be anything, but commonplace, especially with elected leaders.

Why is that?

- I wish I knew.

They're supposed to be doing what's best for the majority that elects them.

- It shouldn't be that way.

It's like there's a lot of things going on.

The economy, inflation, the south of the border, you know.

- [Jeff] Nobody wins when nothing gets done.

- Exactly, that's my whole point.

Nothing really gets done without compromise.

- We've had more government shutdowns in the last decade than we have in all of previous US history.

It shows that the divisiveness of current politics is not working to the voter's benefit.

(bright music) - There has to be room that in some places this is not the hill you wish to die on, and you'll make some compromise.

- [Jeff] What if there's a compromise that goes against something you believe in?

Is that when compromise stops being a good thing?

- No.

As long as it is good for our country, there are plenty of decisions that politicians make that I do not believe in.

And that is all right, that is part of why we have a representative system.

- [Jeff] Why do you think nobody wants to compromise?

Nobody wants to make a deal anymore.

- I think it's probably because no one wants to admit failure.

(bright music) - I wonder if social media had something to do with it.

You're exposed to so much more than you ever used to be, and no one can post anything anymore without being attacked by a hundred different opinions.

- If we could just take the time to look each other in the eye and listen, we could all do better.

Certainly, the politicians could do the same.

- Yeah, and that's the other surprise we found here in Uptown Charlotte, that even when people personally disagree with a potential compromise in Washington, they say they'd still support it.

If it's a fair compromise, it's for the greater good.

And if both sides can walk away with something positive.

Pat.

- Wow, thanks Jeff.

That incredible feedback.

So what do you think about the issue?

Email us your thoughts on the politics of problem solving to unspun@wtvi.org.

(upbeat music) Tonight, on our top five countdown, we've got the top five no compromise issues in Washington.

The top five problems that Republicans and Democrats refuse to make a deal on, regardless of what we say.

Can you handle the truth on these top five?

'Cause I'm about to tell you the truth on what they're not doing in Washington DC.

Let's start out with number five.

Oh, I don't even feel comfortable talking about this because of the feedback you get.

The top five, number five, social issues, including guns, including abortion and gender identity.

A lot of people want the politicians in Washington to decide these issues, but they wanna step away from it completely because you make no friends on any of these issues and you can lose elections on these issues.

You can raise money on these issues, but you can also lose elections on these issues.

So I'm not gonna talk about it anymore, maybe in a future podcast or telecast.

Number four, energy and the environment.

Boy, is their division in Washington DC on this right now between the environment and climate change, and also low energy prices, and wanting to drive whatever car I wanna drive.

And right now there's incredible debate about congressional authority on environmental and energy policy, and the executive authority of President Biden.

And guess what?

The Supreme Court's probably gonna have to get involved with this dispute between the Republicans and Democrats, and the congressional branch and the executive branch on how we move forward on energy and the environment.

Number three.

Well, we talked about this in past weeks, social security.

Any politician who brings up needing to make changes on social security is willing to lose their next election, Republican or Democrat, It doesn't make any difference because the complications gonna be, you're gonna hurt someone on any changes in social security.

Either the people currently getting social security or the people who want to get social security when they qualify for it.

So let's go to number two, the most complicated and controversial subject right now is immigration, illegal immigration.

And I'll tell you, even the term illegal immigration is controversial and there's a great dispute right now between the Democrats and Republicans on this issue and no one is making progress.

And yet we continue to have the problem at the border.

And let's go to number one.

The number one biggest problem.

This is at the local, state and federal level, and that's the budget.

Why is the budget the hardest thing in the deficit?

Because usually, there are two solutions.

You either cut services or you increase taxes, cut services, or increase taxes.

If you do any of those two, it's gonna be a future campaign commercial against you, even though those are the two most viable solutions to deal with the debt and the terrible budget crisis that we have in the United States at this point in time.

The top five solutions or problems that we're not solving in Washington DC.

(upbeat music) Next up, PBS Charlotte's, Jeff Sonier joins me for an "Unspun" one-on-one segment.

Jeff, it's great to have you here.

- Good to be here.

And you know how this works.

Questions come from the headlines, I ask 'em, you answer 'em.

That's why we call it one-on-one.

- No spin.

- Okay, no spin at all.

Let's go.

First question is about those protests that have been going on for weeks now, months even.

They're still a top story on the news almost every night.

Is there, the politics behind these protests, is that enough to sustain them all the way through, say to November?

- Well, the biggest political issue now regarding the protest are the Democrats worrying about Chicago.

- Hmm.

- The Chicago Convention couldn't be worse timing for Chicago because people will have memories of 1968 when Hubert Humphrey was the presidential candidate and running against Richard Nixon, and the riots in Chicago probably helped put Nixon in office, and '68 was a horrendous year regarding violence.

It's coming back to Chicago.

So they are scared to death of the Chicago Convention and the protestors going against the Democrats who are typically on their side on this issue.

The other thing is the Republicans are going, oh man, this could be the difference.

So the Republicans are going to highlight the Democratic convention in Chicago and make their convention in Milwaukee as calm as possible.

And hopefully, none of these protestors will come to Milwaukee.

- You've been on ride alongs with police - A lot.

- both as mayor and as governor, even in riot type situations.

You know, we hear about what the protestors are saying, what are the police thinking when they're in those situations?

- Lemme tell you what they're thinking, but not saying.

First of all, they can't believe this is what they signed up for because it's a no-win situation for the police.

If they do nothing, they get pelted with rocks, they get abused, verbally and physically.

If they do something, they're afraid of that one camera where they maybe take the one additional swing that the commentators on YouTube and everything else will go, they went too far, and people are screaming and shouting and then you have tear gas.

It's a no-win situation for the police.

And they know it.

Can you imagine being a police officer in New York City right now, at Columbia, for example, and you're having to stand there for five or six hours, and have all these students throw things at you or curse you and abuse you and they can't move.

And then finally they get the orders to move in and take down the tents, and they have to do it in such a way that they can't break anything, they can't hurt anybody, but they gotta take strong action.

It's an almost impossible step they have to take.

And let me tell you one other thing.

This is tough to say, but the fact of the matter is these police officers have gone through extensive amount of training and education to get to here in their job, but they're being called almost uneducated by these elite college students who think they're smarter than the police officers.

And the police officers, deep down, take it personally that these kind of arrogant, how they perceive, arrogant, entitled, college students want to protest, but they also want their free meal plan.

(Pat and Jeff laughing) And it's tough for the police to stay calm.

- Are these protestors, voters also come November?

- Well, that's the big political issue right now.

You hear the media often talking about, well, the Democrats are worried about losing the youth vote.

But the fact of the matter is these college students don't represent the majority of youth voters.

In fact, youth voters compromise about a 30 to 40% college graduates, but all the other young people voting never complete college.

They're in community colleges or they're working in manufacturing plants or they're working in retail, or they maybe are police officers at this point in time.

So to say, through the media or politicians say this represents the youth, they do not, they do not even represent the majority of youth, especially those at Yale, and Columbia, and Harvard, and the more elite schools that cost 60 to $70,000 a year.

So be careful how you interpret the youth voter or the young voter.

It's a broad spectrum, much larger than what you see on TV during these protests.

- Less than a minute left.

You mentioned before the show there's actually a movie that reminds you of these protestors, a popular movie.

Tell us about that.

- Well, Matt Damon and Ben Affleck had a movie about Harvard.

Robin Williams was in it.

In fact, I gave you the title of it.

- Yeah.

- That was the one question you warned me about.

- "Good Will Hunting."

- "Good Will Hunting."

And basically, what it talked about was the difference between the blue collar students, young people as we talked about, and the Harvard students, and how they often clash, and there are two different cultures, and "Good Will Hunting" showed that.

- We've got a clip right now of the movie itself and that particular scene.

Let's take a quick look.

- See, the sad thing about a guy like you is in 50 years you're gonna start doing some thinking on your own, and you're gonna come up with the fact that there are two certainties in life.

- Yeah, but I will have a degree, and you'll be serving my kids fries at a drive through on our way to a skiing trip.

(Will laughing) - Yeah, maybe.

Yeah, but at least I won't be unoriginal.

- Just as you mentioned, the blue collar versus the white collar, - Matt Damon and Ben Affleck were the blue collar, the people that live near Harvard in Boston, but they're not a part of Harvard.

And these universities often are an island by themselves, but it shows the cultural conflict among people of the same age.

And that cultural conflict still exists today.

And you see it in the protests on these college campuses.

- We're out of time.

Thanks again.

And that's this week's one-on-one segment.

(upbeat music) - This week on Backspin, we're trying something new, I'll call it Unspun, Unfiltered, where I'll say what most politicians know, but they don't say.

You know, on this week's show, we talked about unsolved problems in DC, but as we all continue to grieve for the four public safety officers killed in the line of duty last week, this tragedy also exposed the unspoken truth.

The unspoken truth is this, the biggest problem that's not being solved by politicians is a broken down criminal justice system at the federal, state, and local level.

So while all politicians talk about fighting crime, especially right after police officers lose their life, the fact is almost all violent crime could have been stopped.

How?

If our criminal justice system had worked after the first arrest.

Instead, the vast majority of crime is being done by people who have been arrested over and over and over again.

In fact, as time goes by, they become even more violent.

Often the police even know the names of people they arrest because of so many previous interactions they've had with these people they've arrested before.

In fact, as we examine, almost every police officer shooting, the assailant had been arrested many times before and then released.

So why is the system so broken?

Well, it's complicated.

It's complicated, and politicians don't like complication.

And it takes time, and it takes working together, not just to support our police, but our DAs, our judges, our jails and prisons, and our mental healthcare system.

When a breakdown occurs in any one of those areas, there's a good chance we will be mourning again for another police officer, another police officer taken down by another violent act.

You know, the fact is this, we are setting up our police for failure when they arrest people on campuses or serve a warrant on a federal gun charge in a quiet neighborhood in East Charlotte.

Why?

Because we've all failed to fix the broken criminal justice system and our police know it.

Well, that's the uncomfortable reality as I see it, and I hope you'll come back next week as we explore the politics of inflation and the economy.

That's on our next "Unspun," where we'll tell you what politicians are thinking, but not saying.

Goodnight, folks.

(mellow music) - [Narrator] A production of PBS Charlotte.