- Just ahead on Black Issues Forum, ever the heartbeat of Black Durham, the historic Hayti Heritage Center has stood before the highways, before erasure, and before developers came knocking.

Today, we explore a powerful new chapter fueled by art, community, and resistance.

Coming up next, stay with us.

- Quality public television is made possible through the financial contributions of viewers like you, who invite you to join them in supporting PBSNC.

[upbeat music] ♪ - Welcome to Black Issues Forum.

I'm Kenia Thompson.

Durham's Hayti community has always been a symbol of Black brilliance, entrepreneurship, culture, and collective power.

But like so many historically Black spaces, it has also endured threatened erasure, neglect, and pressure from those who see land value but not cultural value.

Joining me today to talk about where Hayti has been, what it has survived, and why this moment matters so deeply are Monét Marshall.

She's a member of the board of directors for the Hayti Heritage Center, and historian Dr.

Andre Vann, who is also the coordinator of University Archives and instructor of public history at North Carolina Central University.

Welcome.

- Thank you.

- Glad to be here.

- Now, we are going to talk about all the wonderful things that are to come at the Hayti Heritage Center and the lineup in the new season.

But I first want to kind of dig into the history, why this community is important, and then why the center itself is important.

I want to start off with you, Andre.

People may know the name of Hayti, and I love that it is a spin-off of Haiti, because that's my lineage.

But a lot of people don't know the full history.

It's not just the center that we see in the building standing, but this was a community.

Tell us a little bit about that.

- Yes.

Well, the Hayti community, of course, as noted, is named for Haiti, a symbol of independence, you know, first to seek its freedom in the Western Hemisphere after having repelled Napoleon, as we like to say.

And so this entire community that grew out of the experiences of those who had come out of institutional slavery, newly emancipated African Americans by the droves were coming into this area we know today as Fayetteville Street Corridor area today, as a Hayti area.

Not just African Americans, Native Americans as well, who came as well.

Many who came from the Stagville plantation.

Others like the Whitteds, and others came from Hillsborough, North Carolina, because Durham was kind of seen as that place where African Americans were coming to advance themselves.

- And that's because Black Wall Street.

- Well, eventually we'll get to Black Wall Street, but eventually many came in search of freedom, in search of other family members, and created this community that was self-sustained, where African Americans, as we like to say, look inward and look to themselves for their own uplift and their own salvation.

And they did so by establishing not just first land, you know, coming in, buying and purchasing land, also many established churches, such as 1866, the White Rock Baptist Church comes along, 1869, the St.

Joseph's, then called Union Bethel, comes along and is established.

But also the idea of this sense of permanence, where African Americans saw themselves as an important part of the solution, right?

And they did so by creating communities that thrive and survive and that are here today.

And so the Hayti community is one of those that offered, as we like to say, full self-sufficiency, where African Americans had homes, they had small businesses, and from these small businesses led to what would later become the Black Wall Street in Durham as a national reputation.

And so when we look at a period of significance, we date it to about, although African Americans had started acquiring land in 1860s, about 1880 until like 1950, when urban renewal comes about, late 1950s, urban renewal comes about.

And so as a result of that, you will start seeing a sort of demise somewhat of the neighborhood.

And luckily we're glad that there was this resurgence of those who will come back later.

And I know I may be getting a little ahead.

- No, it's okay.

And I wanna also point that we saw 147 kind of split that Black Wall Street, where they existed their businesses that were there and they had to go elsewhere.

And that kind of disturbed that thriving black space.

Just talk about the center being right there.

What was its role during that time?

- Yeah, so I think that the center really encapsulates the power of the ways that black community, we marry the spiritual and the cultural, right?

So having that church there, but then also it being a space for music and dance and then in a contemporary context, film and learning and just being together.

And I think that communities, black communities, especially like we thrive through our culture.

Like we make place through culture as well.

- Now my kids have performed there as many times and you see it was a church.

So was it a church first and then it became the center?

- Yes.

- Okay, that's the progression of it.

- So that the structure that we know today is Hazel Harris Center's 1891 structure.

The Leary Company, and the Leary Company come down from Pennsylvania to do work for Washington Duke and American Tobacco and his early tobacco factories, where he was kind of converting over many of his tobacco factories from wooden structures to brick structures.

And so as a result of that, he lent his architect and designer, Mr.

Leary, because of his relationship with others like John Merrick and Dr.

Stanford Warren and others who were members of the church by the way.

And so he lent his architect and designer, which is very unusual by the way, to help craft this structure that would not be rivaled by really anyone else in the entire South.

And was known as one of the most beautiful structures built.

And so it was in fact the church of the African Methodist Episcopal Church, you know, among the oldest.

And so St.

Joseph's AME eventually, the name that it settled upon was that important structure.

So it served as a place of worship, but also community centeredness where, you know, there were lots of organization institutions that met inside the church.

So it was a multi-faceted institution, not just where people came on Sunday, but you know, the church would open.

And they've kept that reputation even in the newer structure today.

That's still alive today.

- And we've seen in most recent news, not the center itself, but the community has kind of been under threat of land being taken and repurposed.

Share a little bit about the center being safe is what you've said, but what impact does that have?

And the two of you can share this response.

When that space, that community, the surrounding area gets taken from us and it's not going to be, which is great, but what happens when that threat exposes to the community?

- Well, one, I think that it reminds us how important it is to hold on to our institutions and to our places.

And for the center, I think it even, it ups our responsibility to show up for our community.

So they know that like, not just this building, but like we are really here to serve our wider community and that we have real work to do to build that and to make sure we hold onto that and so people know we are not vulnerable and we are not for sale.

- Yes, I love that.

What does- - I also think, you know, when you think about, I think you alluded earlier to the idea of the impact of urban renewal, right?

Late '59, early 1960, about 1970, you sort of see this really, what we call the bulldozing really of the community.

And we're talking about, you know, displacement of African-American families, but also African-American businesses and a sense of community spiritness as well.

And so we're talking about over 125 or more African-American businesses moved out in this place, not given funds to rebuild, right?

I did a study just a few years ago that looked at, you know, what survived and we're talking about less than eight survived urban renewal, right?

But then we also talk about 500 or more families that were displaced, that moved out to North Durham, moved further down Fayetteville Street near and around North Carolina University Somebody who, again, had to sort of find a way to create a sense of community, you know, after being displaced.

And urban renewal, you know, which one of these government programs impacted lots of African-American communities, but it has remained in the consciousness, in my mind, of the people who had once lived there and the next generation that followed them about the importance of the preservation of not just that church, but that community.

I mean, think about only about four things survived after urban renewal, St.

Joseph's, because a member of the commission was a member of that church, by the way, a branch of Mechanics and Farmers Bank, the ABC Liquor Store, and service printing.

- Make sure to keep that liquor store there.

- So those are really the four anchors.

And I say, I think the Hayti Heritage Center represents that sense of rootedness and community and for people who have lived there.

- And I think, too, we saw this being replicated across the country.

What was this pattern indicating, though, to black communities?

- That these communities were not important and that they, you know, the idea was, oh, well, you know, the federal government is gonna come into these local communities and offer opportunities to help them to kind of uplift these communities and make them, as they would say, better communities.

And so really it is a pattern, you know, all throughout the entire United States of America.

However, the vast majority of those who impact African American communities, I tell you, you go up 85, right before you get to 95 and you go to, we do comparative history, right?

So we're talking about Hayti, Impact 147.

You go up to the Jackson Ward in Richmond, Virginia, where you have Virginia Union on one side of campus, of 85 and 95, and Virginia Union on the other side.

That's Impact, right?

And these are examples that you'll go to Jackson Ward.

Jackson Ward is a clear, conscious example on the part of the government to kind of really just go ahead and just erase these histories and make promises that they know they could never keep.

And so Hayti is one of those communities impacted by that.

- Well, Monét, I know that, you know, although the center wasn't threatened, just the news of the community being threatened kind of reignited leaders to say, all right, what are we doing?

So what was the conversation that led you up to where we are today and why we're having this conversation?

- Yes, I think it was the perfect storm of our 50th anniversary and needing to celebrate and mark that occasion, but then also seeing how Durham is changing.

And you know, it's easy to be upset about change, but also it's part of our job to be part of it.

How do we want to shape change?

Because we know we can't stop it necessarily.

So how do we, how are we forward thinking?

How are we making sure that we're still honoring the history and the legacy and also thinking about the future of what's coming?

And I think when the community was being like actively under threat, we were thinking inside of our mission, inside of our programming, inside of what we present to community, what is most important, what is most needed and what can we offer that no one else can.

- So what has been the decision?

So you've got a new lineup of a bunch of wonderful things that are coming.

So tell us about the categories.

We've got what, speaking, art, what else do we have?

- We have live music.

- Live music.

- We have performance.

- Yes.

- We have a performance.

So we're starting our year off with Brandy Younger, who is a harpist.

She's a jazz harpist.

She has a new album out where she plays Alice Coltrane's harp on her album.

So I'm very excited about this performance.

- I can see you light up behind it.

- I think also acoustically what harp will sound like in that space.

I'm very excited.

But then also thinking, and then we have Branford Marsalis will be forming.

North Carolina Central alum, Yazira, who will also be performing in our music series.

And then we have our dialogue series, which is Ta-Nehisi Coates, Melissa Harris Perry.

And we did that intentionally because we know that our culture is not just entertainment.

And particularly in this social political moment, it's really important for us to have real conversations in community and to grapple.

To really grapple together.

And I think that we have the legacy and we have the relationships for people to trust that we can hold conversations.

And then our performance space, I'm doing a one woman show, One Night Only on Juneteenth, one of Anna Deavere Smith's shows.

- Nice.

So a little bit about your background.

You went to A&T University.

- I did, Aggie Pride.

- Aggie Pride.

Can't say it too loud.

- I know.

- Not too loud.

- Another girl.

- But so you, why did you decide to go into the arts?

- I come from an artistic family.

My mother is a, just everything.

You can take a pillowcase and make a costume.

She teaches theater at Southeast Raleigh High School right now.

She is just a consummate artist.

And I think what she gave me more so than what art does for sitting in the audience, but how art impacts community.

She took us into a women's prison to perform for women.

She had us going to work with people around history.

We have a theater company that does interactive and immersive pieces on slavery.

And I think for me, I understand how important art can be to change hearts and minds.

And that's how we change behavior.

- That is.

So with that, Andre, I want to pull you back in.

Art has always been used as a form of resistance in our history.

Share how this kind of continues to support that idea that art is very important.

- Yeah, well, I think art offers a representation of the time periods in which we live in.

But it also gives us a chance to kind of reimagine what the history has been like.

And so I think the Haitian Heritage Center offers a great opportunity to offer not just for adults, but also I think young folk to have a way to kind of see themselves in this space to hear these stories and to be creative.

And I think that to me is the best part of having a historic place like this, that it offers new opportunities, new discoveries, I think, but also really helping young folk.

That's one of my passionate areas that you're gonna hear me talk about, because that's the next generation.

And if they are not introduced to this, then we're gonna lose the entire generation.

And so the arts hold that very important place.

And the Hayti Heritage Center is and has been that sort of anchor over this 50-year period where people had enough imagination to say, "We can do something to preserve this history and preserve this culture."

- I've mentioned my kids have performed at Hayti, they perform at Stagville, they do a John Canoe performance.

And I love to see them... Sometimes people are like, "Well, why do we keep going back to that?"

But it helps them understand in a different way.

So how are you targeting the arts and the center in marketing to the kids and to schools and really bringing them into the fold of keeping that importance alive too?

- Yes, I think one, I wanna say that one of our goals is to be a cradle to grave space, that we are offering arts opportunities from everyone from the youngest to the oldest, because I think actually that part of the power is the intergenerational conversations and learning.

We are making specific connections with DPS.

We're also really working on what is the curriculum we're building around performances so that it's not just that one-time thing, that you can make a connection between, "Oh, I'm going to this reading by Britt Bennett, and then I'm gonna go listen to Melissa Harris Perry, and I'm gonna go listen to this music."

And how are these three women all connected to a larger story about the representation of black women, for instance?

So I think it's really important for us to, and us to know that we're all learners, right?

And I think sometimes we can, like the young people, we want the young people to learn, but we want them to learn in community.

We want all of us to be expanded by the work.

- Are you open to, again, my kids go to a small school, so they're not part of DPS, it's a private school.

How do, if a viewer is like, "I have a small community, but we wanna be part of the lineup or part of future consideration," are you open to that?

- We are so open to that.

And I think particularly because we're at a nexus point, we are inviting our community to come in with new ideas.

We wanna do things we've never done before.

We wanna try new things.

We wanna be just as much a member, like supported institution financially, but also a member created institution as well.

- And Hayti is for everybody.

I know that the community, again, was historically black, and we saw the black community utilizing the space, but it's for everyone.

Do you think people are now seeing, non-black people are seeing that this space is for them too?

- I would say so.

I mean, if you look at the demographics of the neighborhood, the neighborhood certainly has changed.

- It has changed, yes.

- It's become a little bit more diverse, as others will say.

And yet I think there is still this wide appreciation for the work that goes on at Hayti Heritage Center.

And I think it, again, offers a new perspective, I think, for those who sometime are new coming to the city and wanna know how did Durham get to become the city that it is today.

Well, Hayti Heritage Center has been a part of that growth and development of the city.

And that's important.

I think that's an important facet to keep in mind.

So the demographics have changed.

You see growth and development soon to be to the south of the Hayti Heritage Center, as well as to the north of the Hayti Heritage Center.

And that's important, I think, in the total scheme, because it kinda introduces audiences that otherwise wouldn't have that opportunity.

- And we've seen tourism go up.

Not too long ago, we had a representative from the Polymery Center, and they said that their most visitors were people from out of state.

And so when we think about the importance of the extension of the work and the impact of the community, hopefully we're seeing more tourism as a result too.

- And I also wanna add, we are for everyone, and we also wanna be values aligned, right?

So anyone who is interested in liberation and freedom and joy, no matter what their racial background is, this is a place for you.

If you love black music and culture, this is a place for you.

And at the same time, we're very clear in our core mission, who are the artists and the culture makers that we are centering?

Is there black artists and black culture makers?

And then there's the expansive and.

- Yeah, are there other programs outside of this kind of seasonal run of art and showcasing that might be a little more quiet that we don't know is happening in the background?

- Yes, so we still have our dance classes.

We still are gonna have our Santa Like Me coming up next week.

Just our little holiday.

And we're also trying to figure out how to really build surround events around the larger pieces.

With Britt Bennett coming, we're thinking about doing a book group to talk about the book before so we have really engaged folks.

So I think whether you're an extrovert or an introvert or need something bigger or smaller, I think we're really working to build different access points into the work.

- How important is it, Andre, to, we try to kind of dismantle the monuments and the history, and we're now kind of creating new history.

How do you see this new history playing out for our young folks 20, 30 years from now?

- Well, I think the Hayti Heritage Center, I think, offers a great opportunity to educate the next generation on what resistance kind of looks like.

The idea of seeking to preserve a structure that could have been demolished is a form of resistance unto itself.

Because what this group did in 1975 said was that this structure has a permanence, has a place, and has a history that is worth remembering.

And we're glad.

And as I said, that great, wonderful word that Africans use when talking about place, and they call it rootedness, right?

That rootedness and that desire to save from here came very strong and powerful stories that are worth replicating.

Also talks about opportunity for new histories to be created.

And I think when young folk have a chance to kind of go in and kind of reimagine these spaces, but also the community that they're interacting with, I think that, again, is a growth spurt for them.

- Yeah, and it reshapes, I think, how they see themselves and how they've been told to see themselves in the history books.

And to folks' point who say we leave the past in the past, I get it.

It is important to remember.

And I think it's also beautiful to see a new creation of who we are developing through these spaces.

What's support been like from community and what does Hayti need?

- We love that question.

Well, one, for the first time we're instituting, people can join to become a supporter.

So they can become a supporter at $19.75 a month to honor our 50 years.

And that gives them access to early tickets and special events that are just for those members.

And also it's like just putting your little $20 down to say, I support this space.

I believe in this space.

And then also showing up and spreading the word.

I think when I share with my friends or other folks in the community, this is what we're doing.

They're like, y'all are doing what?

Y'all are bringing in who?

Like, that's amazing.

That's major.

We're like, it is major.

Like, this is a big thing.

And I think to share that excitement with other folks and saying, come with me.

Come again.

Even if you hadn't experienced before, you saw something before, come again, try again, be with us.

- What is the audience experience like?

I've experienced it, but share for our viewers.

- Yeah, I think it really depends on the event.

But I think in general, there is a deep level of invitation.

I think that Hayti, both physically has a, like, it's just kind of wide open in the front.

I think it feels like open arms in a lot of ways.

And I think it's also a space where even if you're a first time person coming, you are greeted as if you are part of the family.

You've been here lots of times and you see lots of people who have generational relationships meeting and coming and sharing stories.

And I just think that it's so clear that the space is, it is the physical, but it's not just the physical.

It's what it represents, the relationships that have been birthed and supported here.

- And when you go inside, there are also artifacts and other things to see too.

Do you know some of the artifacts that are in there?

- I know, well, the sanctuary itself is a living, I think, testimony of the work and the history and the preservation of the former St.

Joseph's AME Church as a religious institution.

And so you will see great programming going on there, guest speakers come in there, and people have a chance to kind of sit in the real pews, right?

Real seating, right?

Look up, stained glass windows that are there.

Wonderful, beautiful, historical.

And then a beautiful stage that's there.

So it presents an opportunity in terms of the preservation material culture, right?

And that's what we're talking about.

Those things outside of the normal primary documents and papers.

But it offers opportunity, I think, for people to get a chance to really see this history and what once was, right?

But also to see how in the preservation of the structure, that it offers a new opportunity for the public and for the community to kind of come in.

And I always tell folk, when I ride the top of the steps, right?

I always walk the steps.

I'll take the elevator.

- Yeah, I'll take that.

- And it's just like coming to what we call the vestibule, almost, in a sense.

And you do feel that sense of warmth and that place, and you feel a sense of being right at home, right?

And I think that's important.

- It is important.

I imagine that you are planning for beyond this new lineup release, anything you can share with us?

- I will say that we are committed to continue to bring world-class performers and speakers to Haytai, but also balancing that with local artists, which is one of my deep joys.

Because I think it's really important for us to continue to beat the drum and say that our local artists are world-class.

It's world-class talent.

- So real quick, highlight some of the big names that are coming this year.

- Yes, we have Brandy Younger.

- Yes.

- We have Branford Marsalis coming.

We have Yazzira is performing.

We have Ta-Nehisi Coates.

We have Melissa Harris Perry.

We have yours truly.

And yeah, those are some of our books that we're really excited to share.

- Big names.

Website will get thrown up on the screen again for those that want to go and see when and where.

And I just want to thank you both, Monét Marshall, Dr.

Andre Vann.

We appreciate you.

- Thank you so much.

- So glad to be here.

- Yes.

And I thank you for watching.

If you want more content like this, we invite you to engage with us on Instagram using the hashtag #BlackIssuesForum.

You can also find our full episodes on pbsnc.org/blackissuesforum and on the PBS Video app.

I'm Kenia Thompson.

I'll see you next time.

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