♪ Hey, hey, hey ♪ Hey, hey, hey ♪ Hey, hey (funky music) - Good evening, and welcome to "Horizonte" a show that takes a look at current issues through a Hispanic lens.

I'm your host, Catherine Anaya.

In 2020, Donald Trump won a higher percentage of the Latino vote than he did in 2016.

Tonight, we talk to an Emmy award-winning journalist and author of a new book that attempts to understand and explain a small but growing shift toward extremism and the far right among Latinos in the United States.

The book is called "Defectors: The Rise of the Latino Far Right and What It Means for America."

In it, Paola Ramos details what her deep reporting uncovered after traveling the country talking to Latinos in the U.S. to find out what motivates the rise in far right sentiment and how this voting bloc could shape the future of politics in America.

Joining me now to talk more about her new book is Paola Ramos.

Thank you so much, Paola.

It's so great to have you here.

- Thank you so much for having me.

I really appreciate it.

- Your book is so, so incredibly deep, and interesting and intriguing.

I can't wait to talk about it.

In it, though, you do talk about the rise in the U.S. with Latinos shifting toward the far right.

For the purpose of this discussion, can you define Trumpism, extremism, and the far right that you talk about in your book?

- Yeah, look, I think Latinos have historically given Republicans around 30% of the vote.

Now, and I do personally make a sort of distinction between what the Republican Party is about and what Trumpism is about.

Another foundation of Trumpism as we know it right now, is one that is based on promising mass deportation, that flirts with things like Christian nationalism.

Now, I think then, when we get into the worlds of extremism in the far right, I think what I'm trying to get at is that, of course, it's a spectrum, but that the pathway for many Latinos to sort of skip from Trumpism towards extremism is a lot more seamless.

And I think that we want to think about it, you know?

Obviously, it's all a spectrum.

Not everyone that's in Trumpism is an extremist, of course.

And I think that's always very important to say.

But I think the sort of the spectrum, and what it takes to get to those worlds of extremism, what people find sort of in the Proud Boys, or in Moms for Liberty or these groups, in that roadmap is a lot easier than we think.

- And there's so much curiosity around that roadmap, which is what you dive into in your book.

Donald Trump continues to ramp up his anti-immigration messaging.

He calls Mexicans criminals and rapists.

He uses dehumanizing language when he talks about migrants.

And yet, you know, we talked about those numbers.

He won a higher percentage of the Latino vote in 2020 than in 2016.

Why is he connecting to more and more U.S. Latinos?

- Well, I think the first thing is that the fear-mongering works among everyone, right?

If you have a presidential candidate that every single day is really trying to, I would say, reenact that 2016 victory, right?

Which was a victory that in a way was based on getting people to believe and chant, "Build the wall," and I think so much of Trump's strategy right now is going back to that 2016 moment.

And so, there's a reason why every single day they want Americans to believe that there's an invasion at the southern border, you know?

That migrants are going to fundamentally threaten our wellbeing, our security, our safety, our jobs.

And I think just on a basic sort of foundation, that works with everyone, you know?

Latinas are not immune to that.

And then, I think that if we take a step back and we even just understand the way that we really evolved and changed and shifted as a community, we're so different, you know, from who we were 20 years ago.

And right now, there's more Latinos that are more Americanized, assimilated, speak English, they're younger.

So, I think there is a section within us that simply doesn't resonate with sort of that immigrant story, you know?

So when Donald Trump says things like, "Send them back," they don't see themselves reflected into them, you know?

When Donald Trump sort of otherizes immigrants, they too sort of can feel that otherizing because I think there's just a lot of elements happening at the same time.

And it comes down to this, you know?

We have changed, you know?

And so, we also have to face the reality that maybe some Latinos sort of see themselves more reflected in Trump's version of America.

And I think that's kind of the conversation that may be uncomfortable to realize, but I think it's happening.

- Well, and you mentioned that this group is small, but it is growing.

So how does historical, cultural, and political trauma that you write about in your book explain that drive toward Trump and how he's tapping into that?

- Yeah, so I think Trump has this ability to really tap into these sort of racial and ethnic grievances that I think are really resonating with some Latinos, you know?

Sort of why he's even going to California, to Coachella and has this confidence in talking to Latinos there, you know?

Or why Donald Trump has confidence in going to the Bronx and talking to Afro-Latinos, you know, or why he goes to Texas and talking to Latinos there.

I think it's because they know they can tap into this racial ethnic grievance.

Now, to understand that I think we have to go back to history, you know?

We really have to understand sort of this racial baggage that we carry from Latin America to the United States.

And by that I mean a very complicated history with colonialism, you know, where the idea of colorism and internalized racism and even the way that we as Latinos think about race and think about our own identity, all of that was shaped in Latin America.

So, I think the question is how do we make sense of that in American politics, you know?

How do we make sense also of the weight that colonialism had in sort of shaping our moral compass, you know, the way that we think about the LGBTQ community.

And then, that sort of makes us think of, okay, what about Trump's sort of homophobic and anti-trans language resonates with some people.

And then, of course the other element that I talk about is the political trauma.

You know, we spend so much time talking about the impact that our families have had from fleeing communism or fascism, or sort of unstable democracies in Latin America, but again, how does that manifest in politics, you know?

And so, I think there's a tendency to believe that if you cast Donald Trump as a dictator, you know, (Paola speaks in Spanish) that that's going to sort of scare away some Latinos.

And the thing is, as everything, it's so much more complicated than that, right?

Because of that history.

- Well, we're seeing it play out obviously right now, but what are your thoughts in terms of how this is going to impact the future of American politics?

- Look, I think what's interesting is that, and I've always believed this, and I began my career in politics.

And so much of what I was always told as a young Democratic staffer was that Latinos would be at the heart of the Democratic party's multiracial, multi-ethnic coalition.

And that precisely, if this country were ever to face a candidate like Donald Trump, you know, that is sort of using the language that he's using, that in this scenario, the sort of theory went that Latinos would sort of rise in these unprecedented numbers in the face of someone like Donald Trump.

And so here we are, sort of facing a Latino community that I think is sending us mixed messages, you know, that appears to be more fractured than not.

And so, I think that has pretty big implications.

And just for every single American, for every pollster, every party, the idea that perhaps this community who was supposed to have this allegiance to the Democratic party is telling us something else.

And so, I think that has implications for this election.

It has implications for sort of our theory of what a 2045 majority-minority country was supposed to look like, yeah.

- Well, there are some people I've talked to, some political consultants who say, you know, "The Democratic party just took the Latino vote for granted for far too long, and this is the result of that."

Would you agree with that?

And what does the Democratic party need to do differently?

- Look, I think there's definitely a lot of mistrust, you know, I think.

I spent a lot of time in Arizona and in Nevada, and I think what's also happening there, another elements that goes sort of beyond the rightward shift is that there is a lot of Latinos that feel a level of disillusionment, you know?

That feel that for many years, they've been sort of been waiting for these immigration promises, you know, comprehensive immigration reform, a little bit more security under DACA.

And I think the sort of waiting game is creating a lot of mistrust, a lot of disillusionment, and yeah, I think there's a sentiment that the Democrats, for a really long time, have been taking us and them for granted.

So, I think that definitely is an added element there.

And I would even go as far as saying that sometimes, we tend to mischaracterize sort of, you know, Latinos as becoming independent or leaving the Democratic party, particularly the young Latinos with what I'm talking about now.

I think what's happening is that they're challenging the Democrats more, you know?

They're asking more, they're demanding more.

They want to be courted more.

And that's a different thing.

- I'm glad you mentioned Arizona because I've also talked to some folks who say that, you know, they believe Trump is building support among Latinos, especially here in Arizona, because, you know, we're talking about Latinos who've had their immigration status legalized under past pro-immigration policies, who may see these new immigrants as competitors or who identify with the religious conservatism that, you know, Trump talks about, particularly when it comes to abortion.

Have you found that to be true?

- Absolutely.

I think that's what's interesting, you know?

That there's so many Latinos that are sort of playing this us versus them game that I think Trump is really trying to tap into, you know?

It's sort of the ladder game, you know?

Once you make it up the ladder, you know, once you're good, once you have your citizenship, then, you know, you don't necessarily want that for everyone else.

And there's reasons to understand where that comes from, you know?

There's many studies that have pointed to this idea that the anti-Latino hate crimes are steadily rising, but they specifically rise when mainstream media focuses on the border and on the caravans and on the invasions, right?

Because then, you have mainstream America that isn't just targeting undocumented people, but just Latinos.

And so, I do think there's a tendency by some Latinos to really try and disassociate themselves from sort of those others and those immigrant stories, you know, and really, really make the case that they belong in Trump's version of America.

And that in fact, they're not them.

So, I think that's definitely an added element and to your point.

And I think the religion is always a factor.

And I think one of the things that I've noticed as I've been reporting is that these, what used to be these safe spaces, you know, these evangelical churches that gave people a lot of refuge and a lot of safety, I have seen the way that slowly, more and more, they've become politicized, you know?

And that also, I think, has a lot to do with what we're seeing.

- Talk to me a little bit about the youth, because one out of every five US Latino voters will be voting in their first presidential election in November.

How does the young voter fit into this discussion?

Is Trump connecting with them?

And if so, why?

- I think what I'm noticing is that he's connecting with a lot of younger Latino men.

You know, there's something about his image, and again, this is still talking about a minority, but there is something about the image that he's presenting, you know, this message of authority, of strongmanship.

This message that I think resonates with some younger men that perhaps feel uncomfortable around the image of this changing America with changing gender norms and changing sort of gender dynamics.

There's a reason that his message sort of resonates with them.

But then, I can't, you know, I think of Arizona and I think of the incredible history that Arizona has of, you know, from these anti-immigrant movements, creating a sort of new iteration of young Latino voters that precisely will maybe vote because of the anti-immigrant rhetoric, you know?

And I think Arizona is a perfect example of just how nuanced this conversation is, you know?

Because yes, on the one hand, you may see Trump making inroads.

But then, what we know from the area of Joe Arpaio, from SB1070, is that that also gave birth, you know, to a new generation of young leaders that will be voting with that in mind, you know?

Will be voting precisely because of Donald Trump's anti-immigrant rhetoric.

And that story will look very different in Florida and it looks very different in Texas, but I think Arizona is the perfect example of how nuanced it is.

- Well, you did spend some time here, as you talked about, and you've traveled across the country talking to U.S. Latinos about this shift and why they made that shift if they did.

Were there any particular stories or one in particular that struck you and comes to the heart of everything that you're writing about in your book?

- Yeah, like, I think there's through lines in all of it, but the person that I always sort of keep going back to is someone like Enrique Tarrio from The Proud Boys, you know?

The former chairman of The Proud Boys, Afro-Latino from Miami.

And I think he exemplifies what I found in a lot of people, you know?

Enrique Tarrio was someone that I think, in Miami as he was growing up, which by the way, we grew up very close to each other, you know, but I think he's someone that really never really fit anywhere in Miami.

In his own words, he was someone that was "too black" to be considered a Republican.

He was too sort of "independent" to be a Democrat.

As a black Latino in Miami, sort of fitting into the Cuban American privilege bubble is very hard.

And I think there's something that he finds in the Proud Boys that I think every single person that I talk to, including myself, is searching for, you know?

And that's a yearning for belonging, you know?

A really, this need to feel like you belong somewhere.

Some people find it in the Proud Boys.

Others find that in Moms for Liberty.

Others find that in churches.

Others find that in either party.

But I think what Enrique, then, exemplifies is that when sort of November 2020 comes and when Donald Trump loses the election, the Proud Boys break up with Enrique Tarrio and that shows you just how tenuous, sometimes, these ideas of white power are, you know?

Who Enrique thought he was with the Proud Boys, and what that white power and white nationalism gave him was very tenuous, you know?

It was kind of this illusion.

And so, I think that sort of seems to be this through line in all of it.

It's searching for this belonging and I think we're all sort of collectively trying to make sense of who we are right now.

- It is so intriguing and I'm so glad that you wrote this book, and I encourage everyone to read it.

On a completely different note, I wanted to ask you, because your father, Jorge Ramos, just retired, and I'm just curious, and I'm sure a lot of our viewers are too.

Any plans for the two of you to collaborate?

Because I can see, you know, you bridging the gap between the older and the younger person?

- Yeah, well, I'll say I don't believe, well, let's see if he truly retires.

This is a man that like, as you know more than anyone, like you never really stop being a journalist.

So like, I'm very excited to see what he does.

And look, yes, I would love to do something with my dad.

- Paola, thank you so much and I appreciate you taking the time to join me and really discuss something very important.

- It's always an honor.

Thank you so much.

- Thank you so much.

And that's our show for tonight.

For "Horizonte" and Arizona PBS, I'm Catherine Anaya.

Thanks for joining us.

Have a great night.

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