>>> NEXT, TO THE UNITED STATES.

WHERE THE VOTES OF 63 MILLION LATINOS WILL BE A DECIDING FACTOR IN WHO BECOMES THE NEXT PRESIDENT.

DESPITE A HISTORY OF ANTI-IMMIGRATION RHETORIC, DONALD TRUMP HAS BEEN MAKING INROADS WITH THIS CONSTITUENCY, WHICH WAS ONCE RELIABLY DEMOCRATIC.

OUR NEXT GUEST INVESTIGATES THIS SHIFT IN HER NEW BOOK "DEFECTORS" THE RISE OF THE LATINO FAR RIGHT AND WHAT IT MEANS FOR AMERICA.

AWARD-WINNING JOURNALIST PAOLO RAMOS JOINS US TO EXPLAIN.

>> THANKS.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

YOUR BOOK TITLE IS THE DEFECTORS, THE RISE OF THE LATINO FAR RIGHT AND WHAT IT MEANS FOR AMERICA.

LET'S UNPACK THE TITLE HERE.

HOW ABOUT THE RISE?

HOW DID WE GET TO WHERE WE ARE NOW?

>> YEAH, I THINK IN STARTING IN 2016, I WAS ACTUALLY WORKING ON THE HILLARY CLINTON CAMPAIGN AT THAT POINT.

AND I THINK SO MUCH OF THE THEORY OF CHANGE IN THAT CAMPAIGN, SO MUCH OF WHAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE THE WINNING FORMULA FOR HILLARY CLINTON, I REMEMBER PERFECTLY, WAS THIS IDEA THAT IN THE FACE OF SOMEONE LIKE DONALD TRUMP, AT THAT POINT WAS SAYING THINGS LIKE MEXICAN IMMIGRANTS ARE CRIMINALS, RAPISTS, THE IDEA WAS THE LATINO VOTING BLOC WOULD RISE IN THESE UNPRECEDENTED NUMBERS IN THE FACE OF SOMEONE LIKE DONALD TRUMP.

REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY WERE DEMOCRATS OR REPUBLICANS OR INDEPENDENTS, THAT'S WHAT EVERYONE BELIEVED.

AND THEN FAST FORWARD, OF COURSE, TO NOVEMBER 2016, AND THE CASE IS THAT LESS THAN 50% OF LATINOS SHOWED UP.

AND THEN COMES NOVEMBER 2020.

AND AFTER FOUR YEARS OF TRUMPISM, AFTER THE COUNTRY SEES FAMILY SEPARATIONS, AFTER THE BIDEN CAMPAIGN SHOWS THE ELECTORATE SORT OF THOSE VIDEOS REMINDING PEOPLE OF THE CRIES OF THOSE CHILDREN BEING SEPARATED, AFTER FOUR YEARS OF THAT, DONALD TRUMP DOES BETTER WITH LATINO VOTERS IN 2020 THAN HE DOES IN 2016.

I THINK IT'S BETWEEN 8 TO 10 POINTS.

PEW RESEARCH HAS HIM AT 38% IN NOVEMBER 2020.

AT THAT POINT, BASED ON THOSE RESULTS, BASED ON A LOT OF THE CONVERSATIONS I WAS HAVING ACROSS THE COUNTRY WITH LATINO VOTERS, UNDERSTANDING THE WAY THAT IN VERY SUBTLE WAYS THEY WERE WARMING UP TO THINGS LIKE MASS DEPORTATIONS AND THE WALL AND CHRISTIAN NATIONALISM.

I UNDERSTOOD LATINOS WERE SENDING A DIFFERENT MESSAGE, PERHAPS THE IDEA OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY WAS BECOMING A LITTLE MORE FRACTURED.

>> YOU BREAK THE BOOK DOWN KIND OF INTO THREE BIG SUBSECTIONS.

TRIBALISM, TRADITIONALISM, AND TRAUMA.

EXPLAIN THE ROLE OF WHAT TRIBALISM IS AND HOW IT CONTRIBUTES TO THIS RISE.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I THINK WHEN WE THINK OF THE IDEA OF LATINO TRUMP SUPPORTERS, THE FIRST THING THAT COMES TO MIND IS TO REALLY THINK ABOUT THE MAGA MOVEMENT.

OR EVEN POLITICS.

I THINK WHAT I DISCOVERED IN THE BOOK IS THAT THE REAL ANSWERS, THE HARDEST ANSWERS ARE THE ONES THAT ARE PERHAPS MORE UNCOMFORTABLE TO TALK ABOUT.

BY THAT I MEAN REALLY UNDERSTANDING THE SORT OF RACIAL BAGGAGE THAT I BELIEVE A LOT OF LATINOS INCLUDING MYSELF, A LOT OF US ARE CARRYING FROM LATIN AMERICA.

WHAT IT MEANS TO SORT OF HAVE BEEN COLONIZED FOR SO MANY YEARS, THE WEIGHT OF COLONIZATION.

THAT IN AND OF ITSELF CREATES I BELIEVE A LOT OF INTERNALIZED RACISM, COLORISM, THAT MANIFESTS IN AMERICAN POLITICS IN NOT SO MANY WAYS.

AND THAT'S THEN HOW YOU CAN EXPLAIN THE FACT THAT EVEN LIKE SOMEONE LIKE DONALD TRUMP FEELS SO COMFORTABLE, FOR INSTANCE, GOING TO THE BRONX.

TALKING TO A GROUP OF BLACK LATINOS AND LATINO TRUMP SUPPORTERS, BECAUSE HE BELIEVES HE CAN SORT OF TAP INTO A RACIAL AND ETHNIC GRIEVANCE THAT IS VERY FAMILIAR TO SOME LATINOS.

>> YOU WRITE ABOUT A WOMAN NAMED ISABEL, WHAT DID SHE REPRESENT ABOUT THIS IDEA, THIS ANTI-BLACKNESS?

>> ISABEL IS SOMEONE I TALKED TO IN THE BRONX.

SHE IS AN AFRO LATINA, A BLACK DOMINICAN WOMAN, TRUMP SUPPORTER IN 2016 AND 2020.

AND SHE PLANS ON VOTING FOR HIM NOW.

AND ISABEL IS SOMEONE THAT WAS PARTICULARLY DRAWN TO DONALD TRUMP NOT JUST BECAUSE OF HIS POLICY PROPOSALS BUT SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE OF THE WAY IN WHICH HE SORT OF CRIMINALIZED AND STIGMATIZED SOMETHING LIKE BLACK LIVES MATTER.

SHE SAW A DISTANCE BETWEEN HERSELF AND HER IDENTITY AS AN AFRO LATINA AND SORT OF AMERICAN BLACK POPULATION.

AND EVEN WHEN I WAS CONVERSING WITH HER, SOMETHING AS SIMPLE AS HOW DO YOU IDENTIFY, ISABEL, AND HER FIRST ANSWER WAS I'M A HISPANIC, AND WHEN YOU PUSH BACK AND SAY WHAT IS YOUR RACE?

HOW DO YOU SEE YOUR RACE?

HOW DO YOU IDENTIFY THROUGH THAT LENS?

SHE KEPT GOING BACK TO THIS IDEA, I AM HISPANIC AND I'M NOT BLACK.

ALWAYS SORT OF INSURING THAT SHE CREATED A DISTANCE BETWEEN HERSELF AND BLACK AMERICANS.

SO THE QUESTION IS HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT?

WHAT DOES SHE SEE IN TRUMPISM THROUGH THE WAY THAT SHE IDENTIFIES?

IT HAS SO MUCH TO DO WITH THE 15th CENTURY, THE WAY THAT THE SPANISH COLONIZERS REALLY INSTITUTED A CASTE SYSTEM AND GAVE SO MANY LATINOS REGARDLESS OF YOUR RACE AND BACKGROUND AND ETHNICITY, IT GAVE EVERYONE THE PERMISSION TO ALWAYS SORT OF DRAW DIRECT LINE TO YOUR WHITENESS, ALWAYS DRAW A DIRECT LINE TO THE SPANISH COLONIZERS.

AND IN THIS COUNTRY, WE'RE SORT OF RACE IS SEEN IN BINARIES, SOMEONE LIKE ISABEL, WHEN SHE HAS TO OPT BETWEEN BEING BLACK OR BEING WHITE, UNDER THE GUISE OF BEING A HISPANIC, SHE CHOOSES WHITENESS.

AND IN THAT, THAT'S WHERE TRUMPISM IS ABLE TO REALLY TAP THAT GRIEVANCE.

>> YOU SPENT QUITE A BIT OF TIME WITH LATINO EVANGELICALS, WHICH IS A SUBGROUPING THAT MOST AMERICANS HAVEN'T BEEN PAYING ATTENTION TO.

WHY IS THAT GROUP IMPORTANT IN THIS COMING ELECTION CYCLE?

>> I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT BECAUSE I THINK REPUBLICANS AND DONALD TRUMP AND THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT HAVE UNDERSTOOD THAT AS THEY'RE SEEING SORT OF THE RATE OF WHITE EVANGELICALS AND WHITE CHRISTIANS DECLINE IN THIS COUNTRY, AND THEY'RE SEEING AN OPPORTUNITY WITHIN LATINO EVANGELICALS AND EVEN WE THINK ABOUT NOVEMBER 2020, DURING THAT CAMPAIGN CYCLE, DONALD TRUMP LAUNCHES HIS EVANGELICALS FOR TRUMP, NOT EVEN HIS LATINO EVANGELICALS FOR TRUMP, BUT HIS EVANGELICALS FOR TRUMP NATIONAL CAMPAIGN.

HE LAUNCHES IT, NOT IN OHIO OR PENNSYLVANIA OR WEST VIRGINIA.

HE GOES TO MIAMI-DADE COUNTY.

HE TALKS TO A GROUP OF LATINO EVANGELICALS.

SO THE OPPORTUNITY THEY'RE SEEING THERE IS THE FACT THAT LATINOS HAVE BECOME THE FASTEST GROWING GROUP OF EVANGELICALS IN THIS COUNTRY.

THEY'RE ALSO, IF YOU DIG INTO THE NUMBERS, YOU SEE LATINO EVANGELICALS OVER 50% OF THEM BELIEVE IN THINGS LIKE CHRISTIAN NATIONALISM.

THEY'RE ABLE TO SORT OF BLUR THE LINES BETWEEN CHURCH AND STATE.

AND WHAT USED TO BE SAFE SPACES FOR A LOT OF LATINO EVANGELICALS, SO MANY ASYLUM SEEKERS AND MIGRANTS AND IMMIGRANTS WOULD COME TO THIS COUNTRY AND ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS THEY DO, YOU FIND A CHURCH.

THAT'S SORT OF WHERE YOU FEEL AT HOME.

WHAT USED TO BE THE SAFE SPACES, THESE PLACES OF REFUGEE, THESE PLACES OF COMMUNITY, AND THE LAST FIVE YEARS THEY HAVE BECOME SO POLITICIZED.

YOU HAVE SO MANY PASTORS THAT HAVE INTERVIEWED THAT ARE STARTING TO MERGE THE WORLDS OF MAGA AND POLITICS AND FAITH.

AND TYPICALLY THROUGH THIS SORT OF FRAMING OF IT'S GOOD VERSUS EVIL.

AND THAT REALLY CATCHES PEOPLE'S ATTENTION.

AND THEN THESE PASTORS, THEY'RE VERY CHARISMATIC PASTORS THAT ARE VERY COMMANDING AND HAVE SO MUCH POWER OVER THEIR FOLKS.

I REMEMBER DURING COVID, DURING THE PANDEMIC, ONE OF THE WOMEN I INTERVIEWED TOLD ME THAT SHE WOULDN'T LISTEN TO DR. FAUCI, BUT SHE WOULD LISTEN TO HER PASTOR.

IT WAS HER PASTOR WHO WOULD TELL HER TO NOT TAKE THE VACCINE, TO NOT PAY ATTENTION TO MAINSTREAM MEDIA, TO PAY ATTENTION TO HIM.

SO THAT SORT OF SHOWS YOU THE WAY THESE SPACES ARE SHIFTING.

PART OF IT IS A POLITICAL STRATEGY.

IF WHITE CHRISTIANS WANT TO SURVIVE, IF TRUMPISM WANTS TO SURVIVE, THEY UNDERSTAND THAT THEY NEED LATINOS AND THEY'RE DOING IT.

>> YOU INTRODUCE US TO A CHARACTER, ANTHONY, KNOWN AS CONSERVATIVE ANTHONY.

WHAT'S HE LIKE?

>> ANTHONY IS SOMEONE THAT IS TYPICALLY PATROLLING THE U.S. MEXICO BORDER, HE SITS IN HIS CAR FOR MANY HOURS A DAY.

HE HAS A PHONE, A GO-PRO, AND HE HAS BECOME IN HIS OWN WORDS AN INDEPENDENT JOURNALIST.

SO HE'S JUST DOING THESE LIVESTREAMS UP AND DOWN THE U.S./MEXICO BORDER, PARTICULARLY IN THE EL PASO SECTOR.

NOW, MOST OF HIS CONTENT IS ESSENTIALLY THE FALLING.

HE TAKES LIVE' STREAM VIDEOS OF ASYLUM SEEKERS CROSSING, MIGRANTS CROSSING, AND TYPICALLY THE DESCRIPTION OF THE VIDEOS AS HE'S TALKING TO THE CAMERA IS THIS IDEA THAT THOSE MIGRANTS THAT HE'S CAPTURING ARE DANGEROUS PEOPLE.

THAT THEY'RE HERE TO INVADE THE COUNTRY, AND THAT THEY POSE A FUNDAMENTAL THREAT TO THE UNITED STATES.

HE'S BEEN DOING THIS FOR YEARS.

NOW, ANTHONY IS A FIRST GENERATION AMERICAN.

HIS FAMILY ARE MEXICAN IMMIGRANTS.

THEY LEFT MEXICO BECAUSE OF VIOLENCE.

I THINK WHAT ANTHONY REPRESENTS IS REALLY AN EXTREME EXAMPLE, I HAVE TO BE CLEAR, HE'S AN EXTREME EXAMPLE, ALL OF THESE CHARACTERS ARE EXTREME EXAMPLES OF A PATTERN THAT IS HAPPENING.

IT'S THIS IDEA THAT MORE AND MORE LATINOS, PARTICULARLY THIRD GENERATION, PARTICULARLY A SECTOR LIKE ANTHONY THAT IS BECOMING MORE AMERICANIZED AND MORE ASSIMILATED ARE WARMING UP TO THE IDEA OF THE MASS DEPORTATIONS AND THE WALL AND THE OTHERIZING, AND I THINK ANTHONY IS THE MOST EXTREME EXAMPLE OF THAT.

HE'S SOMEONE THAT IN CONVERSATION, MOST OF WHAT HE WANTED TO DO IS SORT OF RE-ENFORCE THE IDEA, LOOK, I CAN BE A MEXICAN AMERICAN, BUT I'M NOT LIKE THEM.

THEY'RE DIFFERENT THAN I AM.

I THINK ONCE AGAIN, SORT OF WHAT TRUMPISM IS REALLY BETTING ON.

THIS IDEA THAT PEOPLE LIKE ANTHONY HAVE BECOME SO AMERICANIZED, SO ASSIMILATED THAT THEY TOO CAN SORT OF BUY INTO THE NATIVISM, THEY TOO CAN PLAY THE US VERSUS THEM GAME.

AND ON TOP OF THAT, I WOULD SAY THE MOST SORT OF COMPLICATED FACTOR IN ALL OF THAT IS THAT I GOT THIS IMPRESSION WITH ANTHONY Y THINK THERE'S THIS FEAR AMONG SOME LATINOS THAT EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE AS AMERICAN AS ANYONE ELSE, EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVE BEEN IN THIS COUNTRY SINCE THEY WERE BORN, I THINK THERE'S THIS FEAR THAT SORT OF WHITE AMERICA, MAINSTREAM AMERICA WILL ALWAYS SEE THEM AS A SORT OF PERPETUAL FOREIGNER IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY.

I GOT EVEN THAT SENSE WITH ANTHONY, THE SORT OF WAY HE KEPT RE-ENFORCING HIS AMERICANNESS.

AND THAT FEAR OF SORT OF YOUR FELLOW AMERICANS OTHERIZING YOU, THEN FOR SOME LATINOS, THAT IN AND OF ITSELF CAN SORT OF LEAD YOU TOWARD EXTREMISM.

CAN LEAD YOU TO REALLY, REALLY, REALLY DRIVE YOU TO MAKE THE CASE THAT I BELONG IN THIS COUNTRY, AND IN SOME WAYS, IT LEADS YOU TO SOMEONE LIKE ANTHONY.

>> JUST IN JUNE, THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN KIND OF RELAUNCHED A COALITION CALLED LATINO AMERICANS FOR TRUMP.

I WONDER IF YOU SEE ANYTHING ABOUT JUST THE WAY THAT THAT'S TITLED AND LABELED, IS THAT IMPORTANT?

>> IT'S VERY IMPORTANT.

I THINK IT'S SO STRATEGIC AND SO INTENTIONAL THAT THEY'RE NOT JUST SAYING LATINOS FOR TRUMP.

IT'S LATINO AMERICANS FOR TRUMP.

IT'S, AGAIN, BETTING ON THIS IDEA THAT THERE IS A SEGMENT OF LATINOS THAT IS SO AMERICANIZED NOW, THAT IT WOULD BE VERY EASY FOR THEM TO TAP INTO THE OTHERIZING AND THE NATIVISM AND THE ANTI-IMMIGRANT SENTIMENT.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE LATINO ELECTORATE TODAY COMPARED TO 20 YEARS AGO, THERE'S SOME SENSE TO THAT STRATEGY.

THEY SEE IT IS THIRD GENERATION LATINOS THEREAT THE FASTEST GROWING SEGMENT OF LATINOS.

THEY'RE UNDERSTANDING AMONG THE VOTING BLOC, THE MAJORITY ARE U.S. BORN, THE MAJORITY ARE UNDER THE AGE OF 50, AND THE MAJORITY SPEAK ENGLISH.

SO AGAIN, THE BET THERE IS TO REALLY TRY AND DRIVE LATINOS TO GET A GROUP OF LATINOS TO BELIEVE, LOOK, YOU'RE PART OF US.

YOU'RE NOT ONE OF THEM, YOU'RE NOT PART OF THOSE LATINOS.

YOU'RE NOT PART OF THE BLACK COALITION, NOT PART OF THE IMMIGRANTS.

AGAIN, THE OTHERIZING INFUSED IS VERY POWERFUL.

JUST BECAUSE WE'RE LATINOS OR IMMIGRANTS DOES NOT MAKE US IMMUNE TO THAT RHETORIC.

IN FACT, THERE'S A LOT OF POWER TO THAT WHEN YOU ARE A MINORITY IN THE COUNTRY AND SOMEONE TELLS YOU, YOU KNOW WHAT, YOU BELONG WITH US, THAT'S REALLY POWERFUL.

>> YOU ALSO ARE ABLE TO IN THIS BOOK TAKE THIS SORT OF 30,000-FOOT VIEW OF HISTORY FOR A LOT OF READERS THAT MIGHT NOT REALLY KNOW ABOUT AMERICAN INVOLVEMENT IN LATIN AMERICA AND SOUTH AMERICA.

AND YOU WRITE, THE U.S.'S LEGACY OF SPREADING AMERICAN EXCEPTIONALISM IN LATIN AMERICA HAS CAST A LONG SHADOW DIRECTLY IMPACTING ITS CURRENT BATTLE WITH DEMOCRACY.

UNPACK THAT A LITTLE BIT.

>> I THINK SPECIFICALLY I WRITE THAT IN THE CONTEXT OF I THINK A PHENOMENON WE'RE SEEING NOW IN POLITICS AND WE HAVE BEEN SEEING IT FOR YEARS AT THIS POINT, FOR INSTANCE, JUST TO GROUND PEOPLE IN REAL EXAMPLES, YOU OFTEN SEE THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY TRYING TO CAST TRUMP AS A DICTATOR, FOR INSTANCE.

THEY USE THE WORD A LOT, AND THE THINKING THERE GOES, THE STRATEGY IS IF YOU CAN MAKE A GROWING GROUP OF LATINOS BELIEVE THAT DONALD TRUMP IS THAT, THEN THEY WILL BE SCARED OF THAT IMAGE BECAUSE OF THE POLITICAL TRAUMA THAT MANY LATINOS CARRY WITH THEM.

IT'S MORE COMPLICATED THAN THAT.

THERE'S A CERTAIN RISK OF A BACKLASH THERE BECAUSE SO MANY LATINOS HAVE A COMPLICATED RELATIONSHIP WITH SOMETHING LIKE STRONGMEN RULE AND WAYS THEY HAVE BEEN CONDITIONED TO BELIEVE EVEN THROUGH THE U.S. GOVERNMENT, THEY HAVE BEEN CONDITIONED TO BELIEVE THAT AT TIMES, WHEN SORT OF DEMOCRACY FEELS MESSY AND UNSTABLE AND CHAOTIC, AT TIMES THIS IDEA OF STRONGMAN RULE IS NECESSARY.

TO BRING IT BACK, NOT TO THE U.S. GOVERNMENT AND TO WAY PERHAPS THAT THE U.S. HAS CREATED THAT CONTEXT, THINK ABOUT THE 20th CENTURY.

THE WAY THAT THE U.S. GOVERNMENT IN THIS SORT OF NAME OF RIDDING THE WEST OF COMMUNIST AND THE RED SCARE IN LATIN AMERICA, WHETHER IT WAS TO PERU TO CHILE, NICARAGUA, THE UNITED STATES SUPPORTED STRONGMAN RULE, AND SOME CASES THEY SUPPORTED MILITARY JUNTAS.

AND IT CREATED THAT CONDITION THAT IN CERTAIN MOMENTS, WHEN IT HAS TO DO WITH RIDDING COMMUNISM, PERHAPS ANY FORM OF POLITICAL CIVILITY, THIS IDEA MAY BE NECESSARY.

AND THEN WHEN YOU ADD SORT OF THE FACT THAT MANY LATINOS THAT COME TO THE UNITED STATES FROM LATIN AMERICA, OVER 70%, CARRY THOSE POLITICAL TRAUMAS WITH THEM, AND THOSE ARE TRAUMAS THAT ARE THEN PASSED ON THROUGH GENERATIONS.

THEN YOU REALLY START TO EXPLAIN WHY SOMETHING LIKE FRAMING DONALD TRUMP MAY NOT ALWAYS REALLY STICK WITH PEOPLE.

>> WHAT WAS INTERESTING JUST IN THE PAST COUPLE MONTHS TO WATCH IS HOW KAMALA HARRIS, FOR EXAMPLE, HAS PIVOTED MORE TO THE RIGHT ON IMMIGRATION RELATED ISSUES.

HER RESPONSE TO DONALD TRUMP IS USUALLY ABOUT A PIECE OF LEGISLATION, A BIPARTISAN BILL THAT THE FORMER PRESIDENT HELPED KILL FROM THE OUTSIDE.

AND I WONDER, YOU KNOW, WHEN IT COMES TO SAY STATES LIKE ARIZONA WHERE YOU JUST RECENTLY WERE FOR A REPORTING TRIP, HOW DOES THIS PLAY OUT?

>> LOOK, I THINK WE'RE ABOUT TO SEE HOW THAT MESSAGE WILL RESONATE IN A BATTLEGROUND STATE LIKE ARIZONA OR NEVADA.

IT MAKES SENSE, AFTER EIGHT YEARS OF SORT OF INJECTING SO MUCH FEARMONGERING IN THE AMERICAN ELECTORATE, I'M TALKING TO YOU FROM NEW YORK CITY, WHERE MILES AWAY FROM THE BORDER AND I CAN'T TELL YOU HOW ONOFTEN IT IS NEW YORKERS TELL ME MIGRANTS ARE POSING A THREAT TO MY EXISTENTIAL BEING.

DONALD TRUMP AND REPUBLICANS HAVE DONE A GOOD JOB AT CREATING SO MUCH FEAR ABOUT MIGRANTS AND ASYLUM SEEKERS AND THE BORDER THAT YOU HAVE A DEMOCRATIC PARTY THAT IS SORT OF PLAYING INTO THAT REPUBLICAN TRAP AND IS REALLY SHIFTING TO THE CENTER ON THIS ISSUE.

NOW, IN THE NOVEMBER 2020 ELECTION AND 2016, DEMOCRATS TYPICALLY SORT OF DISTANCED THEMSELVES FROM REPUBLICANS BY SAYING LOOK, WE'RE THE PARTY THAT WILL PASS COMPREHENSIVE IMMIGRATION REFORM.

WE'RE THE PARTY THAT WILL HUMANIZE AND SORT OF REINSTATE DIGNITY AT THE BORDER AND INTEGRITY AT THE BORDER.

HERE YOU HAVE VICE PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS THAT IS SHIFTING THAT MESSAGE.

WHEN SHE TALKS ABOUT THE BORDER AND IMMIGRATION, SHE TYPICALLY LEADS WITH BORDER SECURITY, AND IS PRESENTING THIS IMAGE OF HERSELF AS A SORT OF TOUGH ON CRIME, TOUGH ON THE BORDER.

SO TO YOUR POINT, DOES THAT RESONATE?

MAYBE IT RESONATES IN PENNSYLVANIA.

MAYBE IT RESONATES HERE IN NEW YORK.

MAYBE IN OHIO.

PERHAPS IN FLORIDA.

BUT IN A STATE LIKE ARIZONA AND NEVADA, WHERE IMMIGRATION IS SO PERSONAL FOR LATINOS THERE, I WONDER HOW MUCH THAT WILL LAND.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A LATINO ELECTORATE WHERE YOUNG LATINOS THAT NOW HAVE A LOT OF POLITICAL POWER, SAW THEIR PARENTS BEING CRIMINALIZED AND TARGETED BY SHERIFF JOE ORPIO, UNDER SB-1070, THEY SAW THE WAY LATINOS WERE RACIALLY PROFILED.

I THINK BASED ON THE CONVERSATIONS I HAD, THERE'S A LOT OF LATINOS THERE THAT ARE SCARED OF DONALD TRUMP'S MASS DEPORTATIONS PROMISES, THAT ARE SCARED OF THE ARIZONA IMMIGRATION BALLOT, THAT THREAT TO BRING BACK ARIZONA TO THOSE DAYS OF SHERIFF JOE ARPAIO, AND EXPECTING A DIFFERENT MESSAGE FROM THE VICE PRESIDENT.

PERHAPS A MESSAGE THAT IS MORE SIMILAR TO WHAT JOE BIDEN SAID IN 2020, WHICH WAS LEADING WITH WE NEED COMPREHENSIVE IMMIGRATION REFORM.

WE NEED TO HUMANIZE IMMIGRANTS, AND THAT'S SORT OF THE SENSE I GET.

>> THE BOOK IS CALLED "THE DEFECTORS, THE RISE OF THE LATINO FAR RIGHT AND WHAT IT MEANS FOR AMERICA."

THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.