forward.

Hi this is connections filling in for having dots.

And I'm Gino Fanelli.

Today's correction will be made on June 7th.

That date will mark the 13th Rochester Real Beer Expo hosted at Innovative Field.

The festival, organized by the business association of the South Wedge Area, has become something of a cornerstone of the Rochester beer community, bringing in dozens of local, national and international brewers showing the best of their offerings.

This year's festival will bring a renewed focus on New York state beer.

That comes at a time when the New York craft brewing scene is facing some changes.

Less than a decade ago, the industry seemed to be on a constant rise, with new breweries opening monthly.

Now the tide has shifted a little bit.

The past year saw some closure for breweries like Pittsburgh, Copper Leaf and recently the downsizing breweries like K2 brothers, which have closed a free will elementary school location a year after opening amid financial troubles.

Point being, the beer industry is changing and to discuss the trends in it, I'm joined by Robert Hamburg, curator of the Rochester Real Beer Expo and founder of Brew Buddies.

Rob.

Thanks, Renee.

Thanks for having me.

Paul Leone, executive director of the New York State Brewers Association.

Paul, thanks for being here.

Thanks for having me back.

And Zach Edward, head brewer and co-owner of Iron Talk Brewing.

Yes, sir.

All right.

Thanks for being here.

and, Rob, I want to start with you.

This is your first year helping to organize the beer expo, and I want you to explain a little bit of the approach this time around.

And why the focus on New York State beer now?

Yeah.

so I wanted to kind of separate the festival in such a way that we could really focus on, what makes New York State great in terms of the whole beer scene and also just, like, focus on, you know, doing something a little different with the festival, having it be a place for breweries to showcase beers that they're not always going to bring or, you know, stuff you're not going to find on the shelves around town.

Yeah.

And I think the the beer expo for its time that's been running has been the kind of place where breweries brought their weirdest stuff.

Yes.

Stone yard being a great example of that.

brewing.

I think last year they did, the coconut shrimp beer.

Nope.

No.

Here's a chocolate pudding beer.

Oh, the chocolate pudding beer.

That was, viscous enough that it was no longer liquid.

Yes.

No.

Yeah.

So, I mean, stuff like that.

the coconut shrimp beer with the previous two years know.

You see, in retrospect, these events become a little bit blurry for some reason.

and you know that that is the kind of thing that I think, makes the expo such an a pivotal thing in the Rochester beer scene is that it has really special products that you can't find year round there.

Yeah.

it's breweries bringing their best or weirdest and some of their most unique offerings.

So, can you give us a little preview of, like, what you're expecting to see this year?

Yeah.

So, it's going to be a lot of, part of my big thing.

And this goes along with what I do with brew, but so we're bringing in a lot of brands that don't, traditionally distribute to Rochester.

And so there, you know, we got people coming out for the day basically from all over New York state.

and obviously, you know, past New York City as well.

But, it's going to be brands from Long Island coming up.

It's brands from the North Country coming down.

you know, kind of just like for them, it's a way to test the market and reach out to new customers.

And it's also a way for Rochester to really showcase, you know, some, some beers that people aren't going to find other places.

So, when I'm talking about changes in the industry, I want to point to some figures about New York State beer.

And, this is from the National Brewers Association.

New York had the second highest number of breweries in 2024 of any state at 549. those breweries created nearly $4 billion of economic impact and brewed 1.6 million barrels of beer.

That's 3.3 gallons of beer for every of age adult in New York State.

so it's a big industry.

This is a very large industry that, the number of breweries has kind of floated around the 500 number for the past couple of years.

And, comparing to the boom period of the mid 20 tens.

Paul, I want to ask you, like, what's different now than what was happening then?

Oh, I think, you know, I read a, I read a really great quote, recently it says, craft beer isn't growing.

It's growing up.

And so the industry has evolved.

And, you know, our numbers in New York have been relatively flat over these last few years.

And I, I look at that as a real positive.

You know, there are some, you know, a lot of breweries, closures around in other states.

New York seems to be holding, holding our own, you know, one one closes you.

You'd mentioned, you know, we we lost nine spot.

We lost copper leaf.

you know, k2's, you know, rightsizing or downsizing a little bit.

but we gained spotted octopus, right?

So we're seeing moves like that when buffalo spotted octopus, you know, opening up, you know, in the old rock space.

And so the industry is maturing and it's adapting to kind of the new reality of craft beer.

So I think at, the, the peak period of that craft beer boom, and especially in the late 20 tens into a, you know, pandemic era, it was really driven by people that wanted to try new things.

They were always constantly looking for new beers.

This was the era when, like, heavily fruited sours became a thing.

Pastry style, too, became a thing.

I don't know if that's the case now that it's constantly on the cutting edge.

And I want to ask you about this because you're actually making the beer.

I mean, how do you stay relevant now?

What do people what what's gravitating towards them?

Consistency.

that's probably the biggest driving factor for us.

you know, you can only push the envelope so far.

That definitely, you know, when I started over ten years ago was always, what can you do this week?

What's cutting edge, what's new?

You know, sours weren't even a thing, and now they're everywhere.

but yeah, people just want good, clean, consistent beer.

They want they expect the same thing every time they come in.

you know, we dedicate two out of our ten tap lines year round to two beers just because you know, people expect that and everything else you can play around with here or there.

But people just kind of want beer flavored beer.

you can still do the weird stuff, but it's not as prevalent as it needed to be.

You know, five, ten years ago.

It's doing the weird stuff now.

it is different in that you don't have to do it, but you want to do it.

Yeah.

I mean, and and there's the neat, you know, the the, the customers kind of.

They don't tell you what to do, but they will dictate what you brew, you know, they'll let you know with their wallet if they like something or not.

And, you know, your run rates will determine that you'll you'll find out really quick.

Okay.

That was a misstep.

Maybe I don't do that again.

Or, you know, maybe I'd do it and change something up a little bit.

So yeah, it really depends on, it depends on the brewery honestly as well.

There's, something I try that maybe, you know, three heads or similar octopus or somebody down the road does that might not work at their spot.

And vice versa.

Yeah.

I think that, well, every brewery is going to have one IPA on tap.

Yeah.

You expect your lager, your IPA, your sour maybe.

And then everything else is kind of just up in the air.

Yeah.

And then you have, you know, breweries like, Nautilus is a good example that they really made their, reputation off of being the extreme kind of beer stuff.

And I think that's what they do well, and they keep doing it.

But that model I don't think have been, something that sustainable for everyone.

I think there was a period of time when everyone was trying to do that of what's the most ridiculous thing I can brew?

And that is no longer the case.

It doesn't it doesn't excite people as much as it used to.

and, Robin, Paul, I want to get your perspective on this, too.

I mean, what do you think people are gravitating towards now?

I mean, what is like the driving trend right now in the beer industry?

And I see this as someone who's kind of outside of it now.

I, I don't really follow the trends, so I don't really get to see what exactly is happening that is, different.

So, yeah.

What do you think the driving forces are now?

I think the thing that I'm seeing more of is more sessionable beers.

Not necessarily na, but, you know, to have that middle ground where it's like, hey, I want something that's 3% alcohol that I can drink more than one of.

And, you know, it's not going to affect me the same way.

Yeah.

I think, you know, is, you know, millennials, you know, kick this all off, in a big way.

And, you know, I'm a I'm a Gen Xer, and then the boomers, you know, still drink, but I think that I'm even at the point now and Zach mentioned earlier, he's got two beers on tap.

When I go to air tug I drink tag light.

You know, it's a 4%, you know, easy drinking beer.

And I see that a lot of breweries beer that tastes like beer.

You know, you want to have a few of them.

That's great for the breweries.

Instead of going out and having an eight 8% IPA, they'll still sell.

but I think drinking trends have changed.

And, you know, and also like, yeah, you know, a lot of these breweries also, you know, offer other things to people.

You know, people aren't just wanting beer anymore.

They'll want some wine, they'll want some cider, they'll want some of these things.

And, you know, breweries have adapted that way as well.

And I think going with that too, kind of like what you said.

Where like, you know, mortals is known for their fruit.

It's ours.

And, you know, three lbs is known for their IPA.

I think a lot of the issues breweries are struggling with right now is just trying to find what their identity is.

You know, they can if you're leaning into something like that and you're known for it, they're going to ride it out as long as possible.

But a lot of these places are, you know, just struggling to get a foothold and figure out, okay, what's our thing, what's our, you know, what's our niche, what are we going to be known for?

So I think that's a good point.

I mean, if you are the kind of brewery that opens up like a lot did in the late 20 tens that we brew everything, well, I know that not everything is going to be of good at everything else.

Like there's something that you're good in.

I mean, I think every brewer could probably brew any style somewhat competently if they're halfway decent, but there's always gonna be a thing that you're best at and, and things that you're not as good at.

And I think the breweries that I think are doing well right now seem to be the ones that are focused on like, this is our style and like, this is like what we do best.

And it's one of if you have any thoughts on that, like, of like having an identity of like, what defines you as a brewery?

we can go around.

I might have a different thought about this, but I think Zach and and Rob, I think you should start with them because I, I bring a different perspective.

Okay, Rob, I'll go with you first.

I definitely see where you're coming from, but I think that I'm going to push back on that a little bit.

I think there are breweries that are successful that do everything pretty well, that, you know, their identity is just consistently quality beer across the board.

So, I think that you obviously will see, like I'll use brewery or again, for example, where like Belgians are their thing, they do Belgians really well and that's been really successful for them.

But I do also think that there are a fair number of breweries, especially in the local scene, where they make everything pretty well, and that's kind of their identity is, you know, just consistent quality across the board.

Do you agree with that?

Yeah, I mean, that's pretty well said.

I mean, like for for perspective, I mean, when I started there was 140 maybe breweries.

So now, you know, 549 and ten years, that's, you know, it's increased quite a bit.

So everybody's, you know, struggling for that same foothold.

But yeah, I mean I agree with Rob completely.

That's make sense I think where the industry has changed the most.

And so we talk a lot.

We're talking a lot about beer.

Right.

And the quality of the beer and the flavor of the beer and all of that.

And the way I look at it now with a lot of breweries, is that really, they're they're becoming more hospitality focused.

Right?

Beer.

They're still breweries.

you know, they, you know, Iron Tux putting in a full kitchen because they need to you need to have a little bit more, more than just really good beer.

I was, at a brewery in the Finger Lakes.

that makes really great pizza scale house.

and, and they he was telling me the story that they shut the kitchen down for, like, a week to clean and do all this sort of thing, and their business dropped by half.

And he goes, that's when I realized that I was a pizza place that makes beer and not a brewery that that, you know, makes pizza.

Right?

So I think people are really breweries are getting more hospitality focused.

They've dialed in the beer, they're making good beer.

They're making it consistently for the most part, especially in the Rochester area.

But now, like the consumer looking for a little bit more, and so the hospital, the end of the craft beer industry is really starting.

You're starting to see more of that.

Yeah.

I think something that John Neumann, the, former owner of Young Line Brewing, used to say to me a lot of that she it's about developing an experience.

and, that was kind of the defining trait of a good brewery is that it was memorable going there, maybe for the beer itself, but also for the ambiance and, the food.

All these things together are what makes this kind of, a successful business as a whole.

I want to jump back to something we've kind of mentioned before about trends in drinking in of itself, important numbers earlier about this, with a Gallup poll last year, and it found that for adults under the age of 35, 60% of them drank.

So about 40% said they didn't.

That's down 12%, from 20 years ago, which doesn't sound like a lot, but that's a pretty significant shift in a pretty short amount of time.

a lot of people either are drinking less or not drinking at all.

And, Paul, I'll start with you on that.

I mean, do you think that those kind of trends are affecting the beer industry as a whole, and how can they adapt to that?

I mean, where do Creperie fit into that kind of, social movement?

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, it certainly does affect, you know, the health trend and people wanting to be able, but healthier also, the more options that are available today.

I mean, you know, there's THC beverages now.

there are, you know, alcoholic Mountain Dew, like the variety also plays a factor of that right now.

I think, you know, everybody keeps bringing Gen Z. Gen Z doesn't gravitate to alcohol, you know, in big numbers.

but I think the feeling is, is that as, as they mature and as they get older, they will.

I mean, you know, the options, you know, are out there and they'll experiment a little bit more.

So I nobody's panicking.

But for those that are in the industry right now that we're that's why it goes back to.

All right.

So how do you how do you get the Gen Zers in and how do you get the younger people in.

well, you know, breweries do trivia nights and they do more experiential things, you know, to bring people in and they don't have to drink alcohol.

They're just there because of, you know, it's a cool place to be sort of thing.

So, I don't think there's great worry right now.

I think, I do talk to a lot of breweries, and they say the one thing that that they do see down is not that people aren't drinking, but they're not drinking as much.

So.

So some, you know, somebody might go in and buy like 2 or 3 beers and they're getting 1 or 2 beers instead.

And then that certainly affects the bottom line.

Yeah.

And I mean, I think of myself because I'm looking at one there's the numbers here.

Then like, you know, my own experiences, like I stopped drinking over a year ago and I'm at the point now where it's like occasionally I want a beer.

but it's rarer.

And also, most of the people in my life, like my friends, circle, most of them kind of gravitated away from it to when, like all of us were pretty into beer, before beer and all all alcoholic beverages or just beer.

I think if you as are alternatives that that you find, you know that you're you're turning to and your friends are turning to, weed is definitely the big one.

Like, I think a lot of people have like, just found that, I think you get older, and you start to get, like, actually experience hangovers is one, right?

One major thing that does, like, try to skew and kind of skew you away from like, man, I don't want to do that all the time.

but I mean, I think there's a lot of factors there that I, this is a question that I think about a lot of like, why is this happening?

And like, why is the social trend coming out this way?

And, every person I think has an individual reason for it, but, as a whole, like trying to see why the crowd moves one way.

I don't think there is a clear answer.

but I it's something that I'm always thinking about, and I, I want an answer to it, like, why, why is this trend kind of happening?

But to the point, I went when I make maybe once a month, do want to just have a beer like I am gravitating towards those 3% table beer kind of stuff.

Flights.

Huge deal.

that's, you know, it's a great way to get the kind of portion that I want out of it.

yeah.

I don't know.

I there's no question here, but I think it's a it's a point of the conversation, too.

I guess I'll, I'll throw my $0.02 in there.

so, like, we're not reinventing the wheel here, you know, like, beer has been around for a long time.

obviously, you got your major brands, you know, have a ton of money.

They're not going anywhere.

And again, and I think it all is cyclical.

You know, there's times where, you know, people drink more, people drink less throughout history.

but also like, you know, it's, it's just one of those things that kind of it comes and goes.

But the quality, again, if your beer's not good, you probably will close eventually because people do vote with their wallet.

it's the sad truth about it.

so, you know, there's, there's a lot of breweries and everybody wants to open a brewery.

Everybody wants to be a brewery or a business owner, and it takes a lot of hard work, and you've got to be good at it ultimately is your bottom line.

So that's my input on that.

I take well, I think, to the to that point, I mean, 2016 era, 2017 when like this, like boom was really happening.

There was so many breweries opening, and there was so much bad beer out.

Oh, there still is.

Yeah.

There's still a lot there's a lot more of it now.

yes.

That's true.

And I, I do think that, we have about, you know, five times the number of breweries in the state than we did than I would argue that it's less common to define like a completely infected garbage beer, on tap at a brewery than it was in 2016 or 2017.

So that for sure, that has changed.

But I think there's still is a lot of mediocre product, on the market, which 537 breweries is a lot of breweries?

Yeah.

is it too many?

I mean, there's never enough beer now.

Now, well, I get I go ahead, Rob and I, I think the big thing with that is looking at the number by itself doesn't necessarily tell you the story out of it, because, you know, the analogy I always give is like, you know, if if 20 new, more breweries in Rochester opened next year, that would be fine, as long as they're not trying to be the next year in Nevada, they're not trying to be the next three heads.

If we have smaller breweries that are opening in, essentially just replacing your neighborhood bar, then that's fine.

You know, if they have no real plans on doing any sort of meaningful distribution outside of their own four walls, then we could support a lot more breweries.

it's more breweries that are opening and fighting for shelf space and tap space at bars.

That's going to really start to that's when we're getting to the point where there's going to be too many.

that's a big industry shift, too.

I mean, I think that during that era when we were having that gap year boom, that was kind of the goal to some degree, to enter distribution.

Yeah.

that's not the case anymore.

Know, I think so.

you know, I read a stat from the VA to the retail dollar actually rose last year 3%.

And a lot of that is because, breweries are focusing more in-house.

You know, I think that, you know, wholesalers, the bigger wholesalers, you know, are only going to carry a certain number of brands.

I think what Rob does with Brew Buddies is super important.

because he's getting like a lot of local craft beer into spots that the big wholesalers aren't going to carry.

So he he what he does is super critical to the industry right now.

I mean, it's true.

I mean, I think every brewery needs an angle and an edge somehow and, and, and what, you know, breweries does is important to smaller craft breweries.

So breweries have learned that, you know, back in the olden days, you know, when like ten years ago, even be like, I'm going to open up a brewery and I'm going to sell all my beer at Wegmans and everywhere else, and everyone's going to carry my beer, and I'm going to make and Fred, Matt, who I love, who owns Matt Brewing Company and his family's been in the business since the 1800s, and he's fourth generation.

You know, he would always tell everybody like, well, great, you want to get distribution, would you rather make $5 a case or $5 a pint?

Right.

So think about that.

And so it's a volume business and there's not that much shelf space.

Yeah.

And when it becomes really crowded too, and I think we might be past that era where, people go into a Wegmans and see all these different craft breweries on the shelves and like, oh, I want to try this one, this one, this one, this one.

Now they're just going to go to the one that they already like.

the, the novelty I think has kind of faded, is what I'm saying.

And that marks a new era for any industry once the novelty fades.

Right.

I think very similarly where kind of thing that happened in the cannabis industry where it's, it's going from like, oh, there's so many different products that are entering the market and people get so excited to try all these different things.

And then you find the one that you like, and that's what stay on the shelf.

And often, people like the same thing.

So it's it's no, it's not a new industry.

Beer has been around forever, but this kind of era of it did bring a lot of novelty to it that I think have kind of taken a backseat or just might not be relevant anymore.

I feel like the novelty is gone, and now people are more focused on relatability.

like what Paul does for us in the state is so crucial just promoting local brands.

And same with Rob.

you know, he represents our brand and gets us in places we wouldn't normally be.

But, yeah, it's more about that connection now, people, you know, it's cool to try a one off beer that's fancy and something you've never heard of, but you know, when you can walk down the street and, you know, have that beer every day or, you know, know that that place is around the corner.

It's it's it's just that connection with your community and that.

And so that's what really what I just want to build off exactly what Zach said, the connection to the community.

Right.

And so I think what's super important, we're we're kind of not talking about we're talking about the beer, the beer, the beer and the drinking is that, you know, you go to you don't go to a brewery.

So much to drink.

And I know that sort of doesn't seem make sense.

Breweries are very social places.

You can bring your kids to breweries, right.

And it would be okay.

And a lot of people do.

You can bring pets breweries and you okay.

And and you see a lot breweries are are social spaces.

I know bars are too.

But generally people go I go, you know, you go to a bar to drink, right?

And you're not gonna bring your kids and you're not going to bring your dogs.

Breweries are, are are set up differently.

And so, you know, especially when the weather gets nicer, like it is now here in Rochester.

Finally, and I again, I'll go back to Iron Tug adapting.

You know, they're building a whole patio on Park Avenue, right?

That's where people will go and socialize.

And a beer will be part of that socialization.

But it won't be the central focus of it.

So I think that's what makes the craft brewing industry a little bit different than, than like just the alcohol drinking, you know, let's go there to drink and, you know, all that sort of thing.

Breweries are just different.

They're social spaces.

Yeah.

And I think that the reason that, you know, I still find this whole thing important to talk about is it is a very it's very much a community in and of itself.

And it very much is something that is at its heart and it's soul.

It's local.

and it wants to see the local community thrive.

Every person that's, you know, involved in the brewing industry or the craft brewing industry here, like they're not wishing on the failure of other breweries so that they can succeed like a lot of other, other industries that are out there.

and if they are there, I mean, I've met people like that before.

They're generally not wildly, they just don't come around much.

Yeah, they don't come around much.

And I don't think it's helpful for you to, like, act like I live in a silo, that, I'm, you know, doing my own thing, and I don't care about anyone else happening.

Anything else happening in the community here.

I just want to do my thing.

And not care about anyone else.

I don't think that works in the craft industry, which makes it such an interesting industry to me.

Beyond the beer itself is that it's an ecosystem that is, it's local and to its core.

And, want to see everyone thrive because if rising tide lifts all ships.

Right.

So, yeah, what's really great about Rochester, too, by the way, and we just had New York Craft Beer Day the first ever.

And we were trying to set up you know, where we could go that day without having to get into a car.

And, you know, we didn't want people looking.

And it was remarkable how many breweries there are in Rochester that you can walk to, you know, from one to the next, to the next to the next.

And that's pretty cool.

You know, it makes it makes gets people downtown.

It makes it more vibrant.

you know, and I throw fatties in there too, because they really focus on, you know, New York State beer and things.

And, and it's it's not something that's always been, and so it's pretty cool that you can do that here.

Yeah.

I mean, from where I live in the city, I think there's five, maybe six breweries I could walk through within like a half hour from my house, which is reasonable walking distance.

I live closest to Sweetwater, and that's always a place that is, cool to go to.

Great food too.

So, it's.

Yeah, it's it's still like, I don't want to paint the picture of, like, doom and gloom.

Everything's failing.

And, and I don't think that's the the purpose here.

It's more, that as things become more established, what does the future of that industry look like?

so I'll pose that question to, I mean, what does the future of the industry look like if it becomes more mature?

Whoever wants, I can do I.

To me, you're sort of seeing it happen now.

You're seeing some consolidation.

You're seeing some right sizing.

you know, you're seeing more focus on an internal and taprooms.

And so, you know that that's what's that's where the industry is heading.

And that's not a bad thing.

Right.

We're mature industry now where we weren't before.

We were still finding ourselves when when it all kicked off.

You could just make beer good or bad.

People would come and drink.

It didn't matter.

They just it's, hey, it's a brewery, let's go out.

And it's not that way anymore.

And so, you know, the brewery is, the brewing industry is maturing.

you know, you're seeing a lot of moves in, you know, in the marketplace where, where breweries are, are working with other breweries to increase market share.

So they're just getting smarter on the business side of things.

I think either you want to add to that, I think, kind of going back to our previous point, I think the big thing is going to be just, you know, it's kind of the reemergence of the community in that way.

It is, you know, we're seeing more breweries partnering with other local businesses in our community to find new ways to succeed.

You know, whether it's like Spotted Octopus working with, I believe, Zogby Vineyards to run their kitchen where it's like, hey, you know, it's local, we're keeping money in the community, and you're promoting other local businesses at the same time.

I think we're going to see more of that to really, emerge from the ashes of the problems that do exist in the industry.

Yeah, I think just yeah, the screws getting tightened a little bit, everything just getting refined, you know, dialed in.

Just people getting better at what they're doing, you know, the quality going up.

And you're not seeing these breweries invest in these huge brew systems anymore to make more beer.

So, you know, a small brewery might be like, oh, well, instead of buying, you know, a new five barrel system to upgrade from my one barrel system, they might ask another brewery that has a five barrel system to contract brew the beer for them.

You know, it's just smarter business.

And I think kind of going back to before, like what I said about identity is like, how big do you want to be?

Like, what?

What were you in it for?

Like, I mean, you can open a brewery about do you want to be Sam Adams?

Do you want to be Dogfish Head or do you want to be, you know, little side barrel, iron tongue, everybody making all these boat jokes today, he said.

Rising tides, you know, ship sailed, iron tide.

It's all in the air.

you know, it's, I mean, is it possible to be like a new Sam Adams nowadays, too?

It's the question.

you got to get really lucky.

Really lucky, or I think you'd have to be doing something just so outside the box.

That which I don't know what's left at this point, that no one else has done.

It's.

I think it's.

Yeah, it's just kind of time and place and luck.

It's a little bit of, you know, everything lining up at the same point.

And again you got to want to do it.

Now I look around here, I mean other half is every year seems to expand just a little bit more.

Yeah.

they're doing great and they make great beer.

I but they, it almost seems that odd at odds with like, how the industry has been going that they still continue to grow in that way.

and what they're doing, though, is they're focusing on their opening taprooms where, you know, they're making more money in those taprooms than they are at Wegmans.

Right?

They're making money at Wegmans when they're, you know, Wegmans gives them nice placements.

they do have some, you know, distribution.

But, you know, you're going to make more money out of the tap handle than you are anywhere else, or people taking beer to go out of your place.

And that's really kind of what I'd see other half doing, you know, really focusing on taprooms.

And it just goes to show you can succeed while other people are failing.

I mean, you know, there are places that are doing very well.

Yeah.

And they have also expanded into the THC, market.

Sure.

Smart.

and they're good.

They're very good.

I mean, you are actually seeing a whole other clientele, that, like, some people can go to your tap room and everyone had something to pick from.

that, you know, I think that might be difficult for a lot of breweries overall to be able to deal with.

Like, you're not going to be able to, put all of your focus into everything that's going to make everybody happy.

It's but they're big enough that they can do it, which is, in and of itself, impressive.

It's a word for it because I remember, like, when they were like one of the big hype breweries and people were doing, like, lines for cans that were being sold at tap and mail it.

Yeah.

And back of a van.

Yeah, yeah.

Waiting in that line, around the corner, and south end, get just a couple cans of other half.

It seems like such an era that doesn't exist anymore.

Like, it's just so weird that that's the way it was.

It seems like a lifetime ago.

Yeah.

Two, two lifetimes ago.

Right.

People used to line up for beer.

The line of cars to Mortalita was like you'd be sitting there for, like, an hour and a half to maybe have the chance to buy a four pack of a certain beer.

that's not the case anymore.

You know, which which I'm happy about.

Like, you know, I mean, maybe they're not.

I mean, they're still all of those breweries are still doing pretty well.

and I don't think, they loved the lines either, you know, because there's a lot of they take a lot of crap, you know, from people at the same time, you know, limited amount of beer.

I, you know, I mortalita like talking to them in the out of, out of Albany.

It stresses them right out.

They can't make enough beer.

They sell out a lot of their own beer.

But because the market has changed so much, the reaction ten years ago would be like, well, we need to spend $3 million and build a giant brewery.

Yeah.

Now, you know, they're brewing, they're selling beer, they're making beer and they're selling beer.

And, and they're not going to you know, you know, you're not going to try to be the next Sam Adams or, or any of that.

So we just got a comment on our YouTube that actually brings up, an interesting business model in, saga Stone yard, which, combined their tap rooms.

Good example.

which Rob knows very well.

but, you know, there was an interesting model that, combined, first of all, two brewers with radically different senses of, a little bit of a different sensibilities in brewing, and, it seems to be working.

it seems to be going well.

But, Rob, I wonder if you could talk about how that model has worked a little bit because you've worked really close with Paulo over at Vega, and.

Yeah.

Yeah, because, it's not there.

It's it's kind of a I look at it as like a ying yang situ yin and yang situation, like you said, you know, as and still in your do, much more contemporary style beers, whereas Sager focuses on the traditional stuff.

and I think they complement each other really well.

So it's been really successful to have that.

You know, we talk about the ways that like having more than one brewery in an area will attract more people in having to Bruce in one space has done that really well.

And I there's a third factor in there, by the way, going back to the hospitality side, you'd say your stone yard doughboys.

Doughboys.

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

Right.

So but that's all very deliberate, right.

I think it, it's, it's a make now you can get great food.

You can get two different breweries.

Like that's part of the adapting you're seeing right now in the industry.

Very smart business decision I mean you know we've got people that they're not going under, but they could see the writing on the wall and realize that they're better, you know, utilizing each other.

And they built something amazing.

Now that place is packed every day.

And the food is phenomenal.

We joke all the time, you know, food's phenomenal.

We have to add a fourth business.

Somehow.

That's been my joke with I was like, you know, we'll start selling soap or something or drywall.

And if he does make soap with the soap smells good.

And yeah, the soap is great.

big fan of that.

but yeah, the, beef prior to that merging, saga and of itself with it was not packed all the time.

to, to be honest.

And they found something that works.

Doughboys is, they are not paying me to say this.

I think it's the best pizza in the city, and I couldn't agree more.

It's great.

And, so, yeah, that that that was a very, I think, astute kind of business decision to bring all these things together and make it work.

from two breweries that I wouldn't say were struggling, but I think we're having a hard time finding, like, their, Stone yard had gone through multiple taprooms that, had struggled to stay open and, saga was not getting and not getting as much foot traffic as you'd expect for a brewery that's in like the heart of the, what do they call that?

The Q neighborhood now?

Culver University?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, yeah, I don't even know.

It's a it's it's a popular neighborhood.

It's a nice little craft beverage area, too, if you think about it.

You know, black button and you've got nine maiden living, you've got living roots and you I mean, it's pretty cool.

Little area.

Yeah.

we're gonna take our first break of the hour and come back and we'll talk more about the beer expo in the state of New York.

Beer.

Cool.

Coming up in our second hour, Rochester Mayor Malik Evans is in the studio.

He'll discuss the last state of the city address of his first term in office.

He and guest host Gino Fanelli explore accomplishments and challenges, from public safety to the economy and more.

That's next on connections.

Support for your public radio station comes from our members and from Monroe Community College, hosting Scholars Day with keynote speaker Doctor Clint Smith, journalist and author of How the Word Is Passed, in a talk on racial justice.

Moderators include Norma Holland, Wednesday, April 30th at MC Tickets at Monroe cc.edu.

This is connections.

I'm Gino Fanelli, filling in for Evan Dawson.

We are talking about the Rochester Real Beer Expo and the State of Beer in Rochester, New York State, and really the country.

I got to have, what kind of trends are happening?

but, Rob, I want to talk a bit about what you do.

can you tell me a bit about, your kind of career path here of, And what led you to the expo this time around?

Yeah.

so I, have been friends with Will for years, and I was always kind of ribbing them about the fact that, you know, all the little criticisms that the other beer nerds would have of the expo.

And so I had always volunteered to help.

And, when he reached out to me, let me know that he wasn't going to be curating it this year.

I, you know, kind of threw my hat in the ring for that.

but to kind of lead us up to there.

sorry, could you repeat the question?

I my brain just stopped working.

Yes.

Tell me, what you do.

Oh, and what led you to the expo?

And there is no drinking going.

There's no there's no.

Yeah, yeah.

No, we, I have been chastised and reprimanded for such behavior in the past.

So we are not drinking on the air.

Yes.

No, that's just on my brain works.

so what I do, essentially, is I connect, breweries all over New York state with retailers, brother b bars, restaurants, package stores, to kind of issue the traditional wholesale model.

So, you know, we're working like, for iron tug, for example, you know, we have restaurants all over Rochester that want their beer, and we don't want to lose 30% of the money we're going to make on that to a third party.

Who is going to, you know, what would we do?

They're going to drive, pick it up at Iron Jug and then drive it to a different place in Rochester.

That doesn't make any sense.

And so they're able to have me do the sales instead of having a full time.

The traditional model where you'd have a full time salesperson, you have a part time salesperson who's also a part time salesperson for 20 other brands.

And so that's what I do in my, you know, my 9 to 5 day to day, which I think, in my opinion, makes me uniquely qualified to, curate the expo because I already have connections from my time before, when I ran a beer bar here in Rochester.

And so I feel like it was a really natural fit to, Hey, I'm going to just curate, you know, what I joke is essentially a 250 tap festival.

So this one, I like Taco Bell.

About half how it works in New York State.

If you want to distribute your beer, you had to find a wholesaler, right?

no.

Or a distributor or.

No.

You can sell.

Distribute only in New York.

We went from self distributing until, well, maybe like six months ago or a year ago to.

Yeah, everybody's so.

Yeah.

Yeah, it all depends on what you want to do.

Yeah.

Okay.

well, I learned something today.

You got to, Yeah.

Legally, you do still self distribute.

I have to I have to say that on the air, I'm doing air quotes.

Yes.

So, first time, running the expo.

Yeah.

How are you approaching it?

I don't what is, What are you picturing it looking like?

It's.

You're kind of putting it together.

I'm not picturing it being totally dissimilar to last to the previous years.

I want to stress that I'm not reinventing the wheel here.

I'm kind of just approaching it from a slightly different angle.

because a big a big part of this and some of this comes in with my bias against the traditional wholesale model.

But, when we were talking to some of the distributors about the beer they wanted to bring, they were very much like, hey, we don't want to bring in any special stuff because we don't want to go through the legwork of having set it up in our system.

And, you know, if it's not going to sell at Wegmans or Tops or any other stores, why would we want to promote a beer at this festival?

That isn't going to translate into more sales for us?

And I'm like, well, respectfully, that's your job.

That's supposed to be your job.

You know, the breweries want to do this.

The people certainly want to try these beers.

And so I kind of stripped, stripped that layer away and went directly to breweries, and said like, hey, what do you want to bring?

What are you excited about?

What do you think people will be excited to try?

so, Paul, events like the expo, for, I mean, 13 years now have been kind of this cornerstone of the, the beer scene.

And I think when they started, it was really, a lot of people's first introduction to like, the craft beer scene when all these breweries were opening up and trying these different styles and stuff like that.

and now that it's more established and the industry is, is growing up, what role do you think they play now in kind of propelling the industry forward of having big festivals?

So you do read a lot that there are a lot of festivals that are going out around the country.

I used to be a beer festival every month somewhere, and I've been to beer festivals.

A lot of us have been to beer festivals all over the country, and I think that it's what's unique about Rochester is they've got two really good ones that are established.

You've got the Real Beer Expo and you've got the Flower City Brewers Fest, and they're they're both kind of similar but different.

And what's cool about the expo, and I think makes it unique is that they do bring in breweries from other places and beer from other places that Rochester folks can't get.

The ballpark is pretty cool.

Place to have a venue, right?

I have a have a beer festival.

where is the Flower City Brewers Fest, which the association is now taking over in August is really just New York State only, sort of thing.

And beer festivals, I think are still relevant, important because you're, you're bringing in more than just beer, right?

You're going to have some other things there.

You know, for those that might say, oh, I don't like beer.

And, and what's really great for people is that it's very social.

You're at the ballpark for the expo.

And you know what a lot of people, especially experienced people understand is that you don't have to drink everything while you're there.

you know, you're there to kind of sample and learn a little bit.

It should be just as educational as it is anything else.

And so the Expos, I think, has done a really great job evolving over the years.

And it's a really worthy cause, you know.

Yeah.

And, I remember a period of time, a few years ago where there were so many beer fans.

I mean, there was just so many of them.

And, I'm it's nice to see it pull back a little bit and that these are to, I mean, great venues for them to I mean, the, innovative field and, the public market.

just what is more Rochester than those two things to host a beer?

Both venues are kind of like characters, you know, in a sense that, you know, they sort of play a role and into each event and its vibe.

And I think the Expo, you know, is a really the ballpark is a great spot for it really is.

Yeah.

And I think that like just the the quality there, like those festivals are just, there's so much better than all of the other ones we used to have.

There is just so many ambiguous festivals every weekend.

You know, everybody wanted to throw one.

It was just another reason to party for hours, a drink.

Oh my God.

Yeah.

It's.

I mean, now I, I dread sitting there for 4 or 5 hours drinking.

It's like, but yeah.

No, the festival we do have now they're, you know, spaced out.

They're they're more it almost feels like more of turning of the seasons.

You know, we'll have like, you know, the expo and Flower City, you know, and the, the dog days of summer.

So it's just like a really good summer party.

You know, Paul has some other ones.

We do, you know, Buffalo Brewers Fest, he does the, Albany Fest.

You do?

Cuz for Long Island, Long Island, you know, and and they're, you know, they're spaced out months apart as opposed to, you know, one every other week, but still relevant.

It's still the festivals are still relevant.

I mean, right, I mean, Rob, there's like a purpose behind.

Well and I think the other thing like too, you know, with the Expo and with Flower City and with the other festivals that the association puts on, is that they're run, in a way that's like holistically good for breweries.

Whereas in Rochester, before we had a lot of, festivals that were being put on by people who were just looking for a cash grab or they were looking for, oh, you know, there'd be good exposure for you.

Donate to beer, and we're going to charge $80 a ticket for this.

And it's like, well, that's not you know, that's not benefiting the brick.

Every brewery almost started their own festival.

It was like everybody just had their own like, oh, we'll call it this and slap a stick around it.

Yeah.

And I think festivals have also evolved a little bit to where just like breweries, we have to make them more experiential in some ways.

You know, it can't just have oh, it's just drinking, you know, whatever.

So I liked it.

There was wrestling at the you know, I hated wrestling.

We better be doing that again this year when we're going to do a tattoo pop up at Flower City Brewers Fest this year, people can get tattoos on site, and then you've got the ball field and all that stuff at the Expo, right?

I'm going to say it on the air and hopefully speak it into existence.

I'm trying really hard to get a dunk tank at the expo this year.

I'll send the dunk.

I don't care, I'll take a shot or, the idea that we I was joking with Andy from Swiftwater about was that we want to do it, like a 5050 so brewers can volunteer to sit in and they'll keep half the money, and then the other half will go to Bosnia for the fundraiser.

Oh, nice.

So.

And, yeah, you know, I think there are still some breweries that put on like small festival.

They know like IBC puts on the stout fast which it's great.

It's it's actually, it's a really good time in Dallas.

Does the luau the little.

Oh, yeah.

Which I've never actually been to.

It's a lot of fun.

Yeah, I so I've heard, but yeah, there was a period of time where, like, you could spend $60 for a ticket to a festival and, like, there's six breweries there serving their flagship beers.

And, like, that's not really worth the cost of admission.

And then it's a bad luck, too.

I've.

I've gone to work festivals and you show up and.

Yeah, it's, you know, four booths and, you know, 100, 200 people show up and then they get upset with you because they got, you know, shortchanged by not getting other people's beer.

So, yeah.

Yeah.

I think what's important about both festivals, too, is that, you know, the, the expo benefits South wedge like so these are the and, you know, we, benefits New York State craft beer and holiday outreach.

And so these are like, you know, there's actually you're not we're not walking away profiting from this.

They go towards a cause as well.

Yeah.

And, Zach, what are you planning on brewing for the expo night and position.

Oh.

All right, all right.

Fair enough.

What do you care?

so something very special and exciting.

I it's something specifically for you.

Oh, yeah?

Why not?

All right, we have a couple people bring casks this year, which I'm.

I was thinking about doing that as well.

We hit some people who saw real beer in the name, and we're like, oh, this is a cask festival, right?

Okay, now I got to bring a cask.

Okay.

So Brad from Seneca Lake is going to come up with stuff as he come.

Is he is he doing the.

And I got to get him up now.

All right.

Yeah.

man, any, breweries that, are new this year that, you want to, you know, shout out new for the expo?

Yeah, there's there's a couple that we've already announced on social media.

Whitman is coming down from Saratoga Springs.

Brazen Brewing at a Lancaster who I also work with.

they're making their expo debut.

there's there's a bunch of surprises that I'll leave for, the six weeks until then.

It's exciting.

Yeah.

and I think, Will Cleveland did a great job last year.

and, curating.

And he got some great breweries from, Toronto to come down Blood Brothers with.

Great.

We had them on the show, I believe, last year.

yeah.

So they were awesome and.

Yeah.

but I'm, very interested to see what you come up with, and, I know it's it's going to be the beer expo no matter what, but there's always gonna be a different flavor to it.

So.

Exactly.

and when Joe McBain with putting it on to, as well, it was a different spirit there as well.

So, what's important to note from like, a New York State perspective?

And, you know, we know a lot of breweries, a lot of these breweries like coming to Rochester.

They like the people of Rochester because it's a good craft beer crowd here.

Like they understand craft beer.

They're not the four hours of drinking, get drunk kind of crowd.

They appreciate good beer and a good, good, you know, good experience.

We all get to hang out after, you know, we'll get together and Swiftwater or Strange Bird or something.

And.

Yeah, you know, it's a good beer town.

Rochester, Finger Lakes.

Good.

Good area for for craft beer.

yeah.

I think Rochester is a very good beer town.

And, when you taking the, you know, county whole region.

Rochester.

Buffalo.

I mean, it's a very, very vibrant beer community.

However, I wouldn't discount the average Rochester variant of the ability to get drunk.

that that is something that, Yes.

That's true.

not the focus.

Yeah.

No, not the focus.

And I think it is, a much more educated crowd as far as, like, you know, what they like styles and stuff like that.

There's a higher standard here than I've seen in some other places.

I absolutely agree.

Yeah.

it's hard to serve bad beer here and, like, no one call it out.

Yeah.

You're not going to get away with it at all.

we got a couple minutes left, though.

Paula, tell us a bit about, the flower City very fast.

so Flower City, general obsesses 31 years this year.

August 22nd at the public market.

And that's the longest running beer festival I know.

Tap New York likes to say tap New York's pretty great.

And they're coming back this year.

but yeah, Rochester has it.

And Flower City is is it?

So, we the New York State Brewers Association has acquired the festival.

And so, nothing similar to what Rob's doing with the expo.

really nothing is not much is going to change.

you know, except for more breweries from other parts of the state.

That's what we're going to let pull a lot of breweries out from Long Island and York City and Hudson Valley and all over.

So.

So that'll change.

We are planning, you know, tattoos on site kind of section.

You know, we're going to make it a little bit more experiential and, than in years past, but it'll look and feel the same.

And prices didn't go up.

And it's just going to be more breweries, from around the state.

Yeah.

And, is, John Lobb involved at all now?

Are there John Earle?

I will always be involved, whether he likes it or not.

Yes, I am going to I think I think we're going to name, the VIP areas is I wanted to name it like the John and Patti Earl VIP area, but he's too humble of a guy.

So it'll be like the raw back.

You know, they will always be a part of it.

There will be an after party afterwards.

yeah.

This is his festival, right?

This is.

He created this and, what they've done over the years, and it wouldn't be what it is without without them.

John Outlaw being the founder.

I'm sorry.

Yes.

For about everybody knows John.

Everyone.

Everyone does know John.

For those who don't out there somehow if the, for better, for lack of a better term, the godfather of the craft beer.

I mean, one of the nicest guys you'd ever.

He.

Yeah, yeah, he is a very nice person.

I did invite him to be on today, and, he didn't make it, but, I hope he's listening.

And, here's the laugh coming from the room.

yeah.

Zach and Iron talk.

Got anything, fun and exciting coming up, that you want to get out there?

I'm just excited for the patio, for the kitchen.

It's it's going to be a big summer for us.

So, I'm brewing away.

I was at the brewery at 4:00 this morning.

Brewed a batch before I came here.

So I'm, I'm a busy guy.

got some, got some stuff lined up for the expo.

Got some stuff lined up for flower City and, some new beers on the horizon.

So, yeah, I drove by the old location on it.

Finally got bought by somebody else.

Now, I think it's a dispensary, right?

Oh, I didn't know that.

Pretty sure it's a dispensary now.

Well, that's that, you know, we've come full circle.

Comes full circle.

The next generation, park at vacation is much better for you.

Yeah.

Come to come down here and talk on Park Evanston.

Yeah.

Much better.

and buy tickets for the expo.

Yeah, but I take it for the expo.

Rob, where can that happen?

right on the website, they have Red wings hosts the tickets.

there's still VIP tickets as well, I believe.

All right, well, thanks for tuning in.

Cheers.

Thanks for having us, Gino.

Thanks for having us.

Oh.

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