(upbeat music) - Hi, everyone, Steve Adubato.

We kick off the program with a longtime friend who we've interviewed many times, Dr. Denise Rogers, Vice Chancellor for interprofessional programs at Rutgers Health.

Denise, good to see you.

- Good to see you too, Steve.

Thank you.

- Dr., we've had so many conversations over the years.

Go on our website, it'll be up right now.

Look at previous interviews with Dr. Rogers.

What is the greatest concern you have in mid 2025 as we take this program about the public health community and the people you and your colleagues are supposed to serve are trying to serve?

- One of the biggest concerns I have right now has to do with the increasing levels of vaccine hesitancy in this country.

Obviously, the most dramatic example of that is the measles outbreak that we're seeing throughout the country, primarily in Texas, with close to 800 cases there.

There have been 1,024 cases of measles in the United States up to date in 2025.

Unfortunately, the numbers will continue to increase.

The good news for us in New Jersey is that to date, we have only had three cases of measles that occurred in February of 2025, and that was within a family.

The bad news for us, however, is compared to surrounding states, only 93% of children in New Jersey are immunized against measles compared to close to 98% in places like New York and Connecticut.

And so we really want to get those rates up because measles can be a very serious illness.

- Let's do this, we're part of a public awareness initiative and the graphic will come up right now, Vaccines: What You Need to Know, are doing in cooperation with the New Jersey Department of Health.

You'll see their website up right now.

Go to that website to find out more.

Let me ask you this, doctor, why do you believe in the last few years, vaccine resistance has grown, A?

And B, what is a primary barrier to vaccinating our children.

One at a time.

Vaccine resistance is greater today than it was 10 years ago because?

- The spread of misinformation, COVID unfortunately contributed to this with just the tremendous amount of misinformation in social media about the dangers of the COVID vaccine, which by the way, was an incredibly and remains an incredibly safe vaccine.

But COVID brought to the fore more conversations about vaccine.

We've had, however, concerns about vaccines in social media for, even before COVID.

And the reason for that is the work of a really diabolical, unethical researcher named Andrew Wakefield, who published a study in 1998 that associated supposedly the MMR vaccine with autism.

Several things to know about that study.

First of all, it was based on 12 children only.

Second thing to know is it appears that he doctored some of the data about those 12 children.

Third thing to know is that even prior to doing that research, he was working with a lawyer to work on a vaccine lawsuit.

So he had a vested interest in perpetuating this misinformation.

He lost his license in Great Britain in 2010 because of this egregious work that he did and his study was retracted also in 2010.

But unfortunately, by then, this mythology, this misinformation had spread far and wide and persists today.

- And government officials at any level of government, but particularly on the federal side, who make reference to whether it's that study or any other information that connects or attempts to connect vaccines, the MMR vaccine, to autism.

You say what to those watching right now as to what the science, follow the science.

What does the science tell us, Dr. Rogers?

- The science tells us loudly and clearly that the MMR vaccine is both safe and does not contribute to the diagnosis of autism, period.

The science is clear.

- Question.

The recent study that we looked at that is out there right now says that, and if I'm wrong, correct me, 'cause it could be incorrect, I'm not sure.

That there are certain barriers for children who happen to be African American, Latino that are getting in the way of them getting the vaccine.

So the vaccine rates for Black and brown children is higher than for white children.

Is that accurate, Dr. Rogers?

- So the vaccine rates are lower for Black and- - Yeah, I meant, I apologize.

Lower, yeah.

And because?

- Well, part of it has to do with insurance.

So if you look at vaccine rates just by insurance comparing Medicaid to private insurance, children who have Medicaid have lower rates of vaccination, in part because potentially of some barriers to care.

Fewer healthcare providers take Medicaid, for example.

But one of the things I want to strongly emphasize is that federally qualified health centers throughout the state, and quite frankly throughout the country, provide immunizations to children.

Immunizations are free for children with all types of insurance, and even uninsured children can get a access to vaccinations.

But there are these barriers, - Dr. Rogers, some of my friends who are resistant to the COVID vaccine and many of whom have children, and they have grandchildren now.

Are like, listen, I heard it in a podcast.

I saw it on social media.

I'm not doing it.

I'm not vaccinating the kid.

Or their children are not vaccinating the new babies that they're having.

What do you say to folks right now who are convinced that they've heard it somewhere that the vaccine or vaccines are dangerous, A, and B, what is our role, in the so-called mainstream media, particularly in public broadcasting, please, Dr. Rogers.

- I think, Steve, one of the things that you are doing as someone in mainstream media is so critically important in our effort to get out correct accurate information.

Social media is full of all kinds of craziness.

I would suspect some of those same people who read the information about the COVID vaccine, they could also go on social media and read that the Earth is flat, and they wouldn't believe that.

But because this information about vaccines fits into a narrative that for some reason people want to believe.

I think, again, the Wakefield research contributes to that.

But also people want answers.

People want, for example, to know why is there autism?

What causes autism?

And when we don't know, too often we just believe things that people make up.

- One more quick question, Dr. Rogers.

It's someone will say, people often say, and you read it, and some government officials say this, well, listen, we advocate for the, we think the vaccine's a good idea, but it's your choice.

It's a personal choice.

It's just do it or don't do it.

But we're not gonna push you, we're not gonna mandate it.

You say what to that?

As it relates to community health, please.

- I say that this is one of the most dangerous attitudes we can have in this country.

And what it does is it basically says, all I need to do is care about myself.

I don't need to care about my neighbors.

I don't need to care about my family members who may be vulnerable to these illnesses.

One of the things for us to realize, Steve, is that this year has been one of the deadliest for children from influenza.

We had 226 children die from the flu, two of them here in New Jersey.

Why?

Because some children are actually too young to get immunized, and if the people around them aren't immunized, they give it to these children.

Children get, these infants get very, very sick and can die.

Less than 50% of children are immunized against influenza.

We're seeing huge increases in other diseases, like whooping cough.

There were 35,000 cases of whooping cough in 2024 compared to 7,000 cases in 2023.

Again, these diseases cause suffering and death in some instances.

And we are taking an attitude that basically says, not my family, not my problem.

That's one of the most dangerous attitudes we can have in this country.

- How the heck did public health, did the, quote, science of vaccines and related public health issues, how the heck, in your view, did it become political, ideological?

Is that new?

- The extent to which it has become ideological is absolutely new.

- The degree of it, the degree of it.

- The degree of it, absolutely.

So the extent to which, for example, we saw COVID politicized, we saw things like getting vaccinated and wearing a mask politicized.

So people in one party were less likely to get vaccinated and wear a mask than people in another party.

These diseases don't care about political party.

But what that did is created an enhanced narrative, again, particularly in social media, that has created just reams of misinformation that people are exposed to almost on a daily basis.

- So when someone says, follow the science, and I've heard other people will often say, well, science changes.

If the science is changing, shouldn't we?

Because I asked the head, the top-level government official in the federal government recently said, we need to study these things more.

We need to study vaccines more because the science is evolving.

But science does evolve like everything else as new information comes out.

So is that not, Dr. Rogers, a legitimate point of view?

Let's do more studies.

The irony is if you're cutting back on funding for the study, nevermind, go ahead.

My job is not to express any opinion.

Go ahead.

- So there's some things we need to study more, and then there are some things that we have studied- - What should we stop studying?

What should we study more, Dr. Rogers?

- Exactly, so we should stop studying whether or not vaccines contribute to autism.

It has been studied extensively.

It has been proven that these vaccines, MMR in particular, do not contribute to autism.

We should study, quite frankly, what are the causes of autism?

What are environmental exposures that may contribute?

But the interesting thing about science evolving, Steve, is in the 1970s, if a child was diagnosed with leukemia, that child had a 20% chance of living.

If a child is diagnosed with leukemia today, that child has an 80% chance of living.

That's how science evolves.

Science gets better by and large.

And so what we need to do is put our efforts into studying those intractable problems that we don't yet have those cures for, as opposed to looking backwards and saying, we know the enormous public health benefits of vaccines has significantly contributed to both quality of life and length of life in this country.

We don't need to study that anymore.

What we need to do is encourage everybody to get all of their vaccines to protect us all.

- You've been in the higher ed community for a few years.

As I said, we've had many interviews over the three decades we've been doing this kind of work.

What do you see as the role of, particularly at a time when so many folks are attacking the higher ed community as elites.

As a Rutgers grad, both my graduate work and my doctoral work, I'm a proud Rutgers alum.

You go to Rutgers, you know, it's anything but elite.

Just leave it at that.

What do you believe the appropriate role is for the higher ed community, particularly in the area of public health?

- So one of the things that we've got to do better, actually, I think in academia, is to do a better job of communicating with the public.

Sometimes we talk too much techno speak.

I can be guilty of that myself sometimes.

- How dare you say that?

- (laughs) It's true.

I have to confess it.

And we have to try to reconnect with people in communities so that they can understand that despite the actions of a few bad actors like Wakefield or like Tuskegee, most of us are extremely committed to making the lives of the people that we are called upon to serve better, and that we work very hard to give the most accurate and trustworthy information that we possibly can.

- Google Tuskegee, and you will see the government, government-sponsored, government-funded studies of syphilis back in the, when Dr. Rogers?

- Well, 1940s to 1970.

- African American men were in fact injected with syphilis.

- They were actually not injected, Steve.

I always have to correct this.

- You've corrected me more than once, but go ahead, why do have that long, got a minute left.

- A lot of people do, the bottom line is these men developed syphilis themselves through their own behaviors, but then they weren't treated when the treatment was available.

They were not given syphilis.

They had it.

And then when effective treatments were available, they didn't get it.

- I wanna be clear, and I'm so sorry for making that mistake.

Were they intentionally not treated by those sponsoring the study, the research?

- Yes.

Yes.

They were intentionally not treated once penicillin became available.

- I shouldn't ask for a yes or no, but if there's another pandemic, yes or no, do you believe we're prepared to do what needs to be done?

You're already shaking- - No.

No, I don't.

I don't, and that's why you and I are having this conversation, and you are gonna have ongoing conversations with others so that we can begin to make a difference in the attitudes of the public so that we're better prepared for next time.

- Dr. Denise Rogers, Vice Chancellor for Interprofessional Programs at Rutgers Health.

As always, my friend, we learn every time you're with us.

Thank you so much.

We appreciate it.

It will not be the last conversation we have.

All the best, Denise.

- Thank you, Steve.

- Stay with us, we'll be right back.

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