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[MOTIVATIONAL MUSIC] - Hi, everyone, Steve Adubato.

We have a half hour to discuss a whole range of issues dealing with the immigrant community, supporting the immigrant community in New Jersey, the region, and the nation.

We're joined by a distinguished panel.

Katie Sastre, who is executive director of First Friends of New York and New Jersey.

Gabily Gonzalez is the founder of Cerrando La Brecha in Camden, New Jersey.

And Lori Nessel is a professor of law and director of Immigrants' Rights and the International Human Rights Clinic at Seton Hall Law School.

Great to have you all with us.

Thank you for joining us.

We appreciate it.

- Thank you.

- Thank you.

Great to be here.

- So put this in context for us, Katie.

Your website will be up for First Friends.

Tell us what the organization is and the people you work every day to protect and serve.

- Sure.

First Friends is a community-based organization that really works to help folks really walk alongside people who are navigating the immigration enforcement system.

We primarily support people who are in immigration detention, but we also support people who have either not been detained or who have been released from detention, and will accompany them to their immigration court hearings or ICE check-ins in Newark, New Jersey.

- Great, Gabily, your turn.

- Cerrando La Brecha is a non-profit organization.

What we do is we support and educate the immigrant communities and also legislation and teachers and leadership throughout New Jersey, mainly in Camden.

- Excellent, professor, tell folks exactly what your work is, particularly your research around the areas of immigration law and why that's your passion.

- Sure, yeah, it is definitely my passion.

I've been both teaching immigration law and running our Immigrants' Rights, International Human Rights Clinic at Seton Hall Law School for 30 years.

So, you know, basically in addition to teaching courses in the clinic, we have law students providing pro bono services to indigent immigrants, and then the faculty supervise them on those cases.

- Katie, let me ask you something.

A lot of noise, confusion, sound bites, some dangerous rhetoric, and some actions that people can decide for themselves, what makes sense, what doesn't, what's legal, what's not, what due process is, what it is not.

For you, from your perspective, this series is part of our Making a Difference series.

What is the difference you seek to make for those undocumented people?

'Cause some people say, "Why are you calling 'em citizens if they're not citizens?"

What is the difference we need to make for those who are undocumented?

And how the heck do we balance that, Katie, with the fact that most Americans say they want massive, significant immigration reform?

Please, Katie.

- Hi, I wanna say first of all that the people who end up in immigration detention are not always undocumented in the way that we see it.

People can end up in immigration detention through a variety of forms.

There are people who have been here for years and years, and perhaps because of some kind of interaction with law enforcement, they then end up in immigration detention.

They had a status, right?

Maybe perhaps they are stripped of that status and then end up in immigration detention.

There are also people who have come here and presented themselves at a border entry as seeking asylum.

These are people who end up perhaps receiving, and we actually have one of those folks on our board, who end up receiving asylee status later on.

And so there's that aspect of it.

The other aspect of it is that at First Friends, the community that we represent and the community that we support are interested in a different kind of future, are interested in communities that truly support everyone who lives here.

New Jersey is an immigrant state.

New York is an immigrant state.

There's no getting around that.

And so we support the communities that exist here.

I'm from an immigrant community, born and raised, daughter of two immigrant parents.

That's who, those are the communities that we grew up around.

Those are the folks that we support.

And so our values tell us that every single human being, regardless of whether or not they have a certain status, is worthy of connection and of support.

And that's why we have volunteer programs primarily for detained people where a volunteer can visit with someone virtually or become a pen pal or visit in person.

But yeah.

- So look, but do you know what's so interesting about what you're saying?

And Katie and Gabily, I wanna come to you.

Gabily, you came from Guatemala originally, right?

- Yes, I was- - And went to LA, Los Angeles?

- Yes.

- You were undocumented until you were 22 years of age.

Is that accurate?

- Correct, correct.

- Describe for folks what the heck that means, because, again, so much inflammatory rhetoric, and you know where you can find it, whether it's on social media or some information news source, whatever.

What was that like for you?

And how has that changed since the time you were, quote, "undocumented," until the age of 22?

A lot has changed.

- Yes, definitely a lot has changed.

I think we've grown a lot, right?

Growing up, I didn't even know I was an undocumented or an immigrant child.

We don't talk about that at home.

And it wasn't until I wanted to actually work to help out my dad, because he was a single father, that I realized that I couldn't work legally because I did not have a Social Security Number.

And that was the first time when I was like 14, when I realized, oh, man, like, I can't apply.

And people would start asking like, "Well, why don't you have a Social Security Number?"

And that's when I started asking my dad and my dad broke it down to me.

But it wasn't until then that I realized that I was an undocumented person, and that I could never work legally even if I wanted to and had the skills and the language.

- But, I'm sorry to interrupt, let me ask you this before I go to the professor.

When you found out that you were undocumented, I don't even know why it's in quotes, it's undocumented, to what degree did you realize that you needed to change your status in order to have access to certain benefits and opportunities and privileges and rights as an American citizen?

- So I didn't really think about that at 14, but it wasn't until I was in high school when I wanted to also apply to go to college.

And I, at the time, there was no legislation, there was no law, nothing that could allow me to even attend to college and further my education.

So it was my senior year, and I actually got very discouraged, believe it or not.

Because I felt like, why am I going to school?

Why am I even here?

Like, I cannot follow my dreams, the American dreams, right, that everybody's looking for.

- Right.

- And now, today, I'm grateful that we have legislations that have passed, especially here in New Jersey, that advocate for, you know, students that are going to the next future.

- True.

But it's even more complicated than that.

By the way, Professor, let me ask you something.

I appreciate what Gabily was saying about the opportunity, college, the American dream.

But is it, and then state law.

But help us understand this.

And I've had conversations with the Attorney General of New Jersey, Matt Platkin, and I've asked a simple question, which doesn't have a simple answer.

Who's in control of immigration policy in the state of New Jersey?

Is it ICE, the federal agency, or is it the state of New Jersey?

Especially if there's a dispute or a disagreement about how to handle someone who's undocumented.

Professor?

- Yeah, so ICE, or immigration authorities, and the state, in our case, state of New Jersey, have very different goals, right?

And they're not meant to do the same thing.

And New Jersey has taken a strong stand on not being willing to do ICE's work for it.

So it depends on, you know, what issue we're talking about.

Certainly New Jersey makes decisions as to what benefits under state law immigrants can receive regardless of their immigration status.

New Jersey, although we haven't yet passed the Trust Act, New Jersey Trust Act, there is a policy, there are policies in place so that New Jersey isn't doing ICE's work for it.

- What would the Immigrant Trust Act do?

- Excuse me?

- What would the Immigrant Trust Act do if passed?

- It would codify existing practice and make it much more secure going forward so that New Jersey isn't doing things to share information that it's not legally required to do with federal immigration authorities.

It would make immigrants feel safe to continue to avail themselves of what they're entitled to under state law.

It would make a big difference, really important to the state or things like policing, public health, right?

Immigrants need to feel safe that they can report a crime without worrying that that information is going to be turned over to ICE.

If someone is sick, they need to be able to go to a hospital or bring their child to a hospital, again, without worrying that that's putting them in danger.

- Or go to church.

Or go to church.

- Church, exactly.

Go to church.

- Or be in a classroom.

- Exactly.

And that's why there had historically been set up what's called a sensitive locations directive so that ICE officers federally were told, don't go to churches, don't go to schools, don't go to hospitals.

That's been revoked.

- But they're going to.

They're going to.

They're going to restaurants.

They're going to a whole range of places.

And my only, I'm not trying to be provocative, but it is a devil's advocate question, Katie.

What do you say to those who say, well, wait a minute.

Now, you're not involved in this for political reasons, but the people will often say, many people will say, "That's what," quote, "people voted for."

The president, President Trump said that he would engage in these, in mass deportation.

They knew it beforehand, now they're just doing it.

Apparently most Americans wanted that.

Is it that simple, Katie?

- It's not that simple if you look at the actual numbers, and we don't have to get into it.

A lot of people sat out the election.

We know that by now.

Let's be realistic.

The majority- - Let's not re-litigate the election.

What do you think most people want, though?

- The point is, the majority of Americans did not vote for this, because the majority of Americans were not represented in this election.

Majority of Americans do not want mass deportations.

And here's what I have to say.

In New Jersey, we did not vote for this.

In New Jersey, we actually had almost full democratic support for the anti-detention law that passed four years ago.

In New Jersey, people have overwhelmingly decided we do not want detention in the state.

We do not want ICE terrorizing our communities.

So what we do at First Friends is work to do what New Jersey communities have consistently said they want, which is to welcome immigrants and create more welcoming state policies.

And I should, I do wanna add the Immigrant Trust Act would more than codify the existing immigrant- - But explain codify.

Codify is a word that's used in- - Turn the directive, which is an attorney general directive and can easily be overturned by the next administration, which will be voted in later this year.

- The next New Jersey governor- - To a law, yes.

Into a law.

It'll turn it into a state law.

So there's a bill right now called the Immigrant Trust Act that has not made any movement in the legislature despite the fact that it's become more urgent each day, especially with things like registry coming into effect.

Now, the Immigrant Trust Act would do a bit more than codify, so make into law the immigrant trust directive, because it would make a much brighter line between our law enforcement agencies and the state and immigration enforcement agencies.

Meaning that our law enforcement agency, that our local and state resources would not be used, anything that is not required by the federal law.

- Yeah, Gabily, I wanna come to you, but it does speak volumes.

And again, we're talking about helping the immigrant community regardless of some status.

As long as they are not breaking the law.

And I'm not talking about a civil law in terms of you're here undocumented.

I'm talking about the kind of violent crime that's often referred to that is not what anyone is looking to protect here.

No one.

But that being said, it speaks volumes that the legislation you refer to, "the Immigrant Trust Act," quote, "is stuck, not moving."

And the argument that Katie just made was that most New Jerseyans would support it.

It's not moving.

PS, we're gonna interview, our producers are gonna find out who is moving that legislation, which legislator in which, upper or lower house of the legislature, and have that conversation, 'cause I have no idea why it's not moved.

But Gabily, let me ask you this.

How would you describe the level of fear and anxiety that many, if not most, those who, human beings, those people who are undocumented are feeling these days?

- Oh, it's high.

It's really high.

I mean, I work closely with a lot of my families and students, and we have a huge number of students that are not going to school.

We have a lot of people that are not going to work the farms.

We have streets that are completely now empty.

I can tell- - Out of fear?

- Out of fear, yes.

That they will maybe even, it will be the last day that they see their kids.

Even if they just take 'em to school.

- What do you tell them, Gabily?

- Well, something that we did in my organization was prepare them with a POA, which is a power of attorney.

- Okay.

- And it allowed families really to have an emergency plan, a family emergency plan.

We did, what, a couple in the community.

And we also, again, educated the teachers and leadership, you know, even in like all throughout New Jersey, because it's important for people to realize what fear can really do for these kids, these families.

The anxiety level that, you know, they're going through.

What kind of child is gonna go to school and study?

And how is that going to affect, like, everyone?

- We're talking about religious leaders.

We're talking about not-for-profit leaders.

We're talking about teachers.

We're talking about hospital administrators.

We're talking about people who own restaurants.

And again, Camden has a large immigrant population.

If I'm not mistaken, New Jersey has the fifth or sixth largest immigration, number of immigrants in the country.

But Professor, let me ask you this.

How much of the challenge, the problem of, again, finding the balance between people who say things like, 'cause my grandparents came from Italy and went through the process, and the process was different then, let's just be candid.

Why can't they, why can't they go through the process?

Why can't we have a more sane, rational, and efficient immigration system?

But at the same time, you have so many people who are undocumented living here.

How much of that is legislative or policy-driven as opposed to, frankly, public opinion, public sentiment, and politicians reacting to what they think it is?

Which is one of the reasons why the legislation you talked about, New Jersey is stuck in committee, not going anywhere.

Professor?

- Yeah, so we have needed comprehensive immigration reform for so many years.

And whether Democrats, Republicans, no one has been able to get that through Congress and signed into law.

- Why?

- So survey of immigration.

- Why not?

- Why?

- If everyone says it's needed, why is it so hard?

- Because there are different views of what's needed, right?

And so we haven't been able to do that to this point.

It's certainly needed.

But one thing that's really important to understand right now, for anyone that's sort of saying, "Well, why aren't people coming the legal way?"

There is an attack on all immigrants no matter how they come right now.

So in addition to largely closing off our Southern border, any ways that were put in place for immigrants to like orderly come to this country, have also been cut off, right?

There are all the people that wanted to come here, fear for their lives, to seek asylum, under the prior administration, it didn't even work that well but there was an app called CBP One app where people could make an appointment and then wait for their time to come.

- And now?

And now?

- Closed off.

Those people who did everything the right way, who were waiting, were told it no longer exists, self-deport.

And that's happening across the board.

- Self-deport?

What the heck?

What a minute.

- I mean, people, that is the messaging- - Leave?

- That's going out.

Leave.

That immigrants aren't wanted here and need to leave.

And the only talk there's been about legal immigrants is the Trump administration has talked about his gold card, right?

For ultra, you know, wealthy people that can buy their way.

- You mean, for rich immigrants?

- Yeah, for rich people to buy their way in.

But our country is based on immigrants.

We need immigrants.

The economy, it's a lose-lose to take this approach of trying to seal off all avenues for immigrants to come to our country.

- I got it.

Katie, I wanna come back to you.

I saw you shaking your head when the professor was talking about, there are not any avenues.

Even if you want to go through quote-unquote, "the process."

How frustrating must that be for the people you serve every day in New York or New Jersey?

- I mean, we're receiving panicked phone calls from people saying, "I came in through CBP One, and now I've received this letter.

Can you help me figure out how to gather the funds to self-deport?"

You know, we have people who call us saying, "I'm terrified to go to my ICE check-in.

Maybe I shouldn't go, and perhaps you could help me with the deportation flight and I should just go back home."

People are terrified, as Gabily was saying earlier, to do things that perhaps a year ago, they may not have been as scared to do.

And that includes things like complying with, you know, immigration court hearings and check-ins.

And of course people still do.

They still show up to court terrified.

But we are seeing people getting detained at those hearings.

- So they get stopped right there?

- Rather at those check-ins.

Not the hearing, I should be clear.

- Katie, sorry to interrupt.

They'll get, sorry for interrupting, they'll get stopped right on the spot.

They're doing what they're supposed to be doing.

They get stopped, detained.

And then where the heck are they going?

We, and not to, listen, we're dating ourselves, 'cause it's the 22nd of April.

We don't know how certain cases are gonna play out where certain people, because President Trump believes they're bad people.

And listen, this is not political, but there is something called due process.

And that is for everyone in this country, regardless of your politics, regardless of your status.

Due process is a thing.

- Yep.

- It's in the Constitution.

Pick it up from there, Katie.

- I mean, that's the other piece that's very, very scary for families is when someone shows up for their check-in, the thing they're supposed to do, and then they're detained.

We've had this happen with two people recently.

And, you know, like what's happened, you know, in recent weeks with Mahmoud Khalil where people were talking about how he was essentially disappeared- - He's a student at- - Student from Columbia University who was arrested and detained- - So he's picked up right off the street?

- And while his wife was saying that he's a green card holder, you know, she was right there, there's video of him being detained.

That thing where people are essentially disappeared in our system happens all the time to people who are detained by ICE.

We receive those same panicked phone calls from family members saying, I don't know where my wife, daughter, or cousin is, because the ICE locator, which is the method you're supposed to use to find somebody, is often not updated for days while somebody's being, often they're picked up in New Jersey, let's say- - So what do you tell them?

Katie, what do you tell them?

- We tell them, this is where you will find your loved one, you know, once they're in the system.

Most likely if they were picked up in New Jersey or New York, they were taken to the Elizabeth Detention Center, maybe for a night or two.

You can show up in person during visitation hours.

We sort of walk them through the process of like, this is where they might be.

And then they are very quickly transferred elsewhere often.

And so that's what we're doing to families on a daily basis.

- Wow.

And PS, for those who are wondering, hey, Steve, you're all over the place with this.

Well, it is all over the place.

And there's so many aspects of quote-unquote, "supporting" the immigrant community.

It's Making a Difference program.

There are so many pieces to it, and everyone, listen, I promise you this, it will not be the only program we have on this subject, because there's so many ways of coming out of it.

Gabily, I wanna ask you this before we wrap up.

What message would you send to those American citizens who were born here and hear a lot of the rhetoric and a lot of the talk about those who are here undocumented and perceive a high percentage of those folks to be dangerous or criminals or whatever they think, which is clearly not the case.

Not a political statement, it's a fact.

What would you say to those folks right now?

- I mean, definitely I'm a big believer of numbers do not lie.

I think getting educated is essential for everyone.

Also, children are being left behind, which, guess what?

Whether you like immigrants or not, that money is gonna come from your tax-paying dollars.

So it's also going to affect you, because now the parents are in another country that left a child here in the United States that now is going- - I'm sorry, again.

Families are being broken apart?

- Yes.

- And what happens to those kids, Gabily?

- What happens to those kids?

The state or, you know, the government takes over them.

So guess what?

The money- - The government takes over a kid, what?

What do you mean?

- If the child does not have any POA or a power of attorney where the parent is giving out their guardianship to a loved one that is either a resident or a citizen, that child will be taken away from the parent and be part of the system.

So again, it's also going to affect other citizens, other students, whether you like it or not.

'Cause that student will still attend school with your child.

So I think as much as you wanna say that it's not going to affect you, it's not part of you, it's affecting all of us in the communities, every single community.

To you, Gabily, to Katie, to Professor Nessel, I don't care what your politics are, folks, but we're talking about human beings.

We're talking about children.

And you can decide for yourself beyond your politics, how best to support and protect the immigrant community and still believe in our country.

They're not mutually exclusive.

I'm off my soapbox.

This has been Making a Difference.

I'm Steve Adubato.

Those are three people making a difference every day.

See you next time.

- [Narrator] Think Tank with Steve Adubato is a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Funding has been provided by The Russell Berrie Foundation.

Delta Dental of New Jersey.

Holy Name.

PSE&G.

Newark Board of Education.

Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

The New Jersey Education Association.

New Jersey Sharing Network.

And by The New Jersey Economic Development Authority.

Promotional support provided by Insider NJ.

And by NJBIZ.

- (Narration) Healing is never just about medicine and technology.

It has to go further than that.

It has to combine science with humanity.

It has to be our best medicine, combined with large doses of empathy, kindness, dignity and respect.

It has to be delivered by people who love what they do and who they do it for.

Holy Name.

Great medicine, soul purpose.