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Doni: Sometimes the rhetoric is frightening.

Name calling.

A lack of respect for differences of opinions, threats, coercion and even violence.

A total lack of civility.

No, I'm not talking about disgruntled neighbors.

I'm talking about the state of our national politics.

Has the political divide gotten too large to mend?

Well, talking to us today is former political consultant Jim Ruffolo.

This is to the point.

Connect with us on our social media pages.

You can email me at doni _miller@wgte.org for this episode and other additional extras.

Please go to wgte.org/To the point.

While I am thrilled and it is my pleasure to have perhaps the smartest man in the state of Ohio when it comes to national politics.

Jim Ruvolo.

Mr. Ruvolo is the past chair of the Ohio and Lupus Lupus County Democratic Parties, a member of the Democratic National Committee for 18 years and chair of the Rules Committee at the 1992 Democratic Convention.

He's now a retired consultant.

Thank you so much for being with us.

Jim: Thanks for inviting me.

Doni: Absolutely.

So we know that President Biden has announced his run for reelection.

One of the things things that he says that sticks with me stuck with me the first time he announced heard it again is that we are fighting for the soul of this nation.

Do you think that's true?

Jim: I've never seen the divisions in the acrimony that exist now in this country.

I mean, politics was always a contact sport, right?

Don't get me wrong.

But the the viciousness at which campaigns are now conducted, the the independent groups that are funded by people, we don't know who they are and they have no accountability to anyone.

And what they're willing to say, what they're willing to put out is hugely wrong.

It's usually pretty evil, but it influences elections.

So, yeah, it's the soul of the nation is probably not too strong.

You know, you've got used to have the Democratic Republican parties.

Now you've got groups that that are influencing the system that have no accountability.

You know, the parties had an accountability because the next year they had to put up a new group.

Doni: That's right.

Jim: But these groups don't have do that.

They don't have to worry about it.

So they're prepared to scorched earth policy because when the election is over, it's on to whatever else they're going to do, but they're not accountable for anything.

So I always tell people I'm glad I'm at the end of my political career, not the beginning, because it's so different now.

I remember when I was when I was state chairman, I got a call one day from a Republican state senator who asked my help in getting a bill through the state Senate.

That wouldn't happen today on a bet.

There is not that kind of communication that goes on.

Doni: How do we get here?

What happens?

Jim: Well, I think we got here truthfully with the partizanship, with with gerrymandering, with things that have made primaries.

Now the only race that matters sometimes.

So if you're if you're only opponents can be someone in your party and you get driven to the extreme of that party.

By and large, to win.

And it's it's more true with Republicans and Democrats, but it's true with Democrats, too.

So the gerrymandering is a big part of it.

But the other big part of it is the money.

I mean, we're going to spend a Senate race next year in Ohio.

Sherrod Brown is going to have to spend $70 million.

Oh, my gosh.

70.

I mean, it's unheard of.

And you combine with the Republicans and then it's over $100 million to raise that kind of money again.

Who do you go to?

You go to people that have a biting interest in an issue or an abiding interest in a particular point of view?

They're not giving that money.

They're not altruists.

By and large, they have a reason they're giving that money.

And that reason is not for good government.

Too many times some people, yes, but.

Doni: Not.

Jim: Naturally.

Doni: Not usually.

You know, one of the things that seems really different about and I am old enough, I'm comfortable saying to have been around when this was different, when politics was different.

You and I are peers, essentially.

And so we both remember when when politics was different.

What seems to be just souls stirring right now is that we seem to not be the divide seems to be not so much about politics or policies, but about core values.

Jim: It's about going to the basic interests.

Unfortunately, what you have is you appeal to people's base instincts and often they're not good.

You know, when you have people like Governor DeSantis of Florida changing the history books, so they're eliminating a sentence, for example, that said, Rosa Parks left her seat because she was asked who to give it to a white person that's now been eliminated from the Florida history books.

When you have that kind of thing going on in intensifies the anger and the hatred and you're not teaching children that that isn't the way it should be.

A matter of fact, you're reinforcing that it is the way it should be.

Doni: You're right.

And one of the things that concerns me is that that kind of action gives credence to, even though it may be unintentional.

But those chants that we hear are Jews will not replace us, that that or what was the other one with Jews is not will not replace us is the one that sticks in my head all the time.

And so we are, whether we are intentionally doing it or not, walking down a road that increases the divide and makes it more difficult.

Jim: Well, and it's it's in your face.

I mean, you look at Tucker Carlson who just left Fox News.

I mean, he was a white nationalist, right?

I mean, what he preached was white nationalism that you wouldn't have 20 years ago if you went on TV and said that you'd be thrown out.

Right now, it's encouraged.

Right.

You know, because you're appealing to a small audience, but a vocal audience, an engaged audience.

Now, the only glimmer I see in all of this is it appears that that group is now losing elections.

You know, in 2022, Democrats did much better than anybody expected.

And part of that is the Middle.

What there's left of it is now seeing what the MAGA Republicans are really for and they're not for it.

You know, you look at you look at women's right to choose, for example.

The public clearly favors that.

But you have state legislatures that are passing these abysmal laws and people are reacting to it.

And what are Republicans what is some Republicans do?

Now you've got Ohio where they're trying to change the constitutional amendment process.

So instead of requiring 50% plus one vote, it's going to require 60, 60%.

Doni: Right.

Did you see I saw this just a few days ago where there was legislation passed.

And I'm sorry, I don't remember the details of the location, but someone was trying to pass legislation making it illegal for unmarried couples to live together.

Did you see that?

Yes.

Jim: The stuff that's coming out, I mean, the culture wars have been around for a while, but they've taken on a new element that, again, is pretty vicious.

I mean, picking on trans people, which is such a small percentage of the population, But why do they do it?

Because it fires up their base.

That's right.

It fires up their fundraising.

Doni: And that's one of the reasons I think this divide is so difficult to manage, because you've got the intersection, quite frankly, of race.

You've got the intersection of religion and you've got politics all piled together.

And then you've got elected officials who, frankly, from my point of view, have forgotten why they're there.

Jim: Well, again, they're elected by and large in legislatures from from districts they can't lose unless they can lose it to someone worse than them, quite frankly.

Doni: Well, that's.

Jim: And that's the problem.

You can't have a dialog if one group says I can only lose an election if I'm not crazy enough.

Right.

And that's where they go.

Doni: So this this lack of civility that we're noticing, which frankly is really disturbing to me.

Is there a way away from that, given given given the paradigm that you've described for how people get elected?

Is there a way away from that?

Jim: Well, only if we do away with gerrymandering.

You know, it's interesting.

The states that have done away with it are Democratic states, by and large.

California, Michigan, New York.

We need to have an end to it.

Doni: And Ohio's trying.

Jim: Ohio tried and the legislature ignored this.

Doni: Ignored it because they know that to do that, I don't understand how they get to do that.

Jim: Who's going to enforce it?

That was their attitude.

So we have to get back to competitive elections.

You know, the one system that's been tried in California to some success is they've done away with Partizan primaries and everybody runs in the top two run off.

Well, if you have to, in a way, you're now appealing to a general election audience more than you are primary.

And that way you tend to moderate your positions a little.

That's a reform I'd like to see in Ohio.

But we'd have to change the district first, because if you had it today, it wouldn't make winning.

Doni: That's right.

Jim: Gerrymandering is is a big, big problem.

Now, that's not to say both sides haven't done it.

They have.

But you take a state like Ohio and with computers now, you can pick house by house who you want your district.

And that's what they do.

These districts are brilliantly carved up, so the Democrats can't win.

Right.

Doni: So at the end of the day, what we have, though, is a country that is so significantly divided that our elected officials are not able to find common ground.

That doesn't bode well, I think, for democracy in this country.

Jim: It doesn't.

But again, I'm a little more encouraged after the 2020 and 2022 elections, because in again, independents, which are a small group, but they have tended not to go to the ends either side.

They they've wanted more moderate positions.

And if that continues, if Republican candidates or Democratic, they start losing general elections because they came out of a primary where they were driven to the far right or the far left, they're going to have to change or they're not going to be in office.

So I think the trend is better than it's been.

I also think, truthfully, getting Donald Trump off the ballot, if he does not run in 2024 or he's defeated in 2024, I think that will change the so.

Doni: Much that he allowed.

Jim: People to go.

He allowed people to say things out loud they never would before.

Doni: You know what I think about that, though?

I think that he gave people permission to to do he he actually it's not that those folks aren't there.

It's not that they aren't allowed their own point of view.

All of those things.

I don't want us ever to pretend like he created that.

No, not.

Jim: People.

Doni: Who did not create that group.

Jim: But he gave them permission.

Doni: He gave he gave them voice, which I don't necessarily think is a bad thing.

I think the way everybody's entitled to their point of view, that's the way democracies work.

I think it's the way that point of view is managed in a public setting that makes a difference.

Jim: But it's become personal.

It's not about policy.

If you ask many people where Donald Trump stood on policy, they'd look at you like, Well, I don't know.

It's very, very personal kind of politics.

Doni: It is your.

Jim: Attack.

You attack the person, you attack the person's family.

Right.

And that, to me, is a big difference.

Doni: I think you're right about that.

I'm going to ask you to hold that thought.

We're going to go away for just a minute.

Sure.

All right.

We'll be right back.

Jaden: I'm Jaden Jefferson, and this week we are on point with the current state of U.S. politics.

What are your thoughts on the current state of U.S. politics?

Man: I'm my thoughts are currently with two caught up in nonsense on Israel, legislation that can be passed.

Current climate is that there's too much wrong going on between corruption in our government.

You know the terror that's happening in our schools.

Kids don't feel safe.

I don't feel safe.

Send my kid to school.

It's terrifying.

We have more people are caught up in identity politics, which in and of itself is important.

But as of right now, I feel like the bigger matter is safety of our children, the infrastructure of our country.

Jaden: So tell me, what are your thoughts on the current state of U.S. politics?

Man: I'm a Democrat.

You know, I support equal rights, equal justice with everyone and everything else.

I want the issue, I guess, with the politics currently right now is gun control with the qualifications of getting a gun, with all the killings going around the United States and everything else.

That's the bill that needs to be put on the ballot on changing the way guns is bought and the possession the age limit.

You know, I'm saying the qualifications in order to get one.

Jaden: On point for this week.

Im Jaden Jefferson.

Doni: Connect with us on our social media pages.

You may email me at doni _miller@wgte.org for this episode and other additional extras, please go to wgte.org/to the point I have with me today, Jim Ruvolo, nationally known political analyst.

I am so happy to have you here.

We are talking about the great political divide and actually whether it's gotten to a point that it cannot be repaired.

Doni: You're we left with you.

Go ahead.

Jim: No, I I'm not ready to give up on democracy and I don't think people are.

But we have to overcome the things we now are hurting.

And that is, again, the partizanship and gerrymandering and the amount of money that now required to get elected.

If we can get those two under control, I think we can return to a different era.

Doni: Yeah, I would agree with that.

And I want to add a few more words about Donald Trump and his influence on this.

Despite what anyone thinks about what he's done.

We have to find a way to manage and this is going to sound really poorly and I ish, but we have to find a way to manage all of these opinions.

We can't pretend like those people who are supporting Donald Trump don't have an influence in the way this society works and that they don't have voices that carry some weight.

So the question is, what do we do about that?

Now, now, certainly you would expect a different kind of I'm going to use the word again, civility from someone who was president and a presidential candidate now.

I will say that the way he approaches, he approached his role was particularly difficult for me.

But we can't ignore those people who follow him.

Jim: No, no, we can't.

But we have to get it back to politics and off personalities.

We have to get it back to policy.

Issues.

I mean, there ought to be disagreement on issues.

If we all thought the same thing would be pretty boring out there.

Right.

And we probably wouldn't accomplish much.

Right.

But it's got to be a debate that is focused on the policy and on the issues.

And it has to be civil.

If we can if we can get there, then every opinion matters and every opinion ought to be expressed by when it's all about, when it's all about things that are about racism, when it's all about things, about nationalism, when it's about things that are personal.

It's attacking a person because of their religion, attacking them because of their race, attacking them because of something like that.

Jim: You're not going to get civility.

Doni: That's right.

I would agree with that.

I would agree with that.

I'm not sure, though, how you make that stop.

I remember when there was a I remember the Howard Bakers.

I remember Ronald Reagan, like him or not like him was a very civilized person.

That is just not where we are.

Jim: The only way it stops is if they lose elections.

And truthfully, again, I see some hope in 2020 and 2022.

What happen if people are defeated because they're engaging in that kind of politics?

It'll stop.

You know, one thing about elected officials, they want to get reelected.

Yeah.

And if if what they're doing is going to cause them not to be reelected, they'll change.

But that's what it's going to take.

It's going to take some defeats of people who are coming into this business for all the wrong reasons.

And if they're beaten, then other people looking to get in are going to say, I've got to change.

I've got to change this somewhat, change the debate.

Doni: So you would I'm going to presume from your comments that you think if Donald Trump is the nominee and he does win the presidency, that we are in for four more years of what we have.

Jim: Worse or.

Doni: Worse.

Jim: Because, you know, in the first four years, first of all, they were relatively incompetent.

They didn't get it done.

A lot of things they said they would not get done.

I expect they'll be more competence.

I also expect it will be more radical than what it was.

Now, I don't happen to believe Donald Trump can win, but I said that in 2016.

So anyone though, I can I could be wrong.

But I think that you've got to have more people stand up, more people to participate.

It's interesting to me that this past week, one of the Republican consultants was giving a speech and talked about how they have to start denying the youth vote, that they have to stop young people from voting.

That tells me they see what's coming.

They see the change is coming.

That is going to be good for them.

Right.

And that's a good sign.

You know, in this Wisconsin state Supreme Court race, the turnout in Madison was huge because the students did go to the university.

Doni: That's right.

Jim: And the Democratic candidate there won by 11 points in a state that most races have decided by one or two.

Yeah, that's sure.

That shook some of these MAGA Republicans to the core.

Doni: I think I think, though, too, that people forget that they have a responsibility in all of this.

So you can't just elect people and send them out to do good.

Jim: Correct.

Doni: Whatever your definition of good is that we have a responsibility.

We're not doing so well in this country around those responsibilities.

Jim: No, we're not.

But again, I see some signs of change.

Doni: Yeah, I love that you're I love that you're so optimistic.

I really do.

Keep talking.

Jim: Yeah, a little bit.

But that's what's going to take.

It's like a change overnight.

You know, you have people who for 50 years have believed a certain way.

They're not going to change.

But young people are the hope, as they always are.

And, you know, for years and years, you could ignore them because they didn't vote.

Well, that's not true right now, because issues they care about, reproductive rights, climate change, those are things that young people are engaged in.

And the more they stay engaged on that, the more they will need to see the need to vote.

And that's an encouraging sign.

Doni: One of the things that really worries me about where we are right now, though, is that while we're seeing young people vote on the things that they care about, some of the things that they don't seem to be particularly concerned about are issues that are critical to the operation of this country, the existence of this country.

And we are moving backwards on issues around civil rights, making it more difficult to vote.

I mean, I looked at the changes in the in the requirements to vote in Ohio.

I don't know if anybody is paying attention to that, but people should be paying attention.

Jim: They should be paying attention.

Doni: They should be paying attention to that.

And we are walking slowly but surely backwards against some hard fought victories in in this country.

Jim: You know, even though Republicans have tried to stymie voting.

I'm being kind there, but even they haven't succeeded totally because people will find a way.

Now, we have to repeal some of these laws if we can.

If we can, we get rid of gerrymandering.

But even with the barriers they're putting up, you find more and more, particularly young people who want to be engaged.

They're going to try to make it difficult.

Years ago, there was a Republican state senator here who was asked after Democrats in 82 won every statewide office what happened.

He said too many people voted.

Doni: Yeah.

Jim: That's their attitude.

Right.

Doni: But are Democrats fighting back hard enough?

Are we being are Democrats being strategic enough?

I mean.

Jim: Some are in some states, but you need resources.

You need leaders.

Unfortunately, in Ohio right now, the Democratic Party, we have good mayors in a lot of the cities, but they're consumed with running their city.

Yeah, most of them are not taking a role statewide as they should.

Right.

And I think that's a problem for Ohio Democrats and something we have to rectify.

Doni: I agree with that.

And in addition to which, I think that we need to really take a look at preparing people to run.

It needs to be Republicans, too.

It can't be this sort of willy nilly whomever steps.

Jim: That's correct.

That used to be the role of the party.

Doni: That's exactly right.

Jim: But it's not anymore.

Doni: What is the role of the party right now?

Jim: Right now in Ohio?

Yeah, there isn't much of one because they don't have resources.

But the role of the party should be to recruit and train good candidates, to recruit and train good campaign volunteers.

Now, there's a group that is doing that called Lead Ohio, but they have a relatively small budget.

They only do a couple dozen people a year.

That needs to be expanded.

You know, every college campus ought to be a place where Democrats and Republicans are competing with ideas and trying to get people engaged and training them how to be.

Right.

Doni: Right.

You know, sometimes, Jim, I think that people don't understand because everybody's trying to live their lives.

They're trying to manage the kids and pay the bills.

And in those things, they don't realize what's at risk here.

When you have conversations about banning books, when you have conversations about deciding who is allowed to live with whom or or diminishing a person simply because I mean, pick something like something, the fabric of this country is at risk.

I don't think that we know at that point who we are or what we stand for, which I think is a pretty dangerous place to be.

Jim: Well, and that's why you see some of these Republican governors trying to change the education system because they're worried.

Yeah.

You know, the more educated you are.

Quite frankly, has become one of the tests, whether you vote Democratic or Republican.

The more educated you are, you tend to vote Democrat, Democratic.

So you see attempts to dumbed down education, quite frankly, to change it, both at the elementary school and the college level.

We can't let that happen.

And I think students are not going to let that happen.

I think, you know, there's enough news to be consumed that you can if with little bit of effort, you can find out what's going on.

Yeah, absolutely.

And as more people try to find out what's going on, they hopefully will get more engagement.

Doni: Mm hmm.

I want to ask you a question quickly.

We only have a couple of minutes left about the influence of social media and the media in general on this place.

We find ourselves this separation that's facing us.

Thoughts about what they could do differently, how they make it worse?

Jim: Well, there's a lot of political consultants will tell you.

They're experts in social media.

No one is convince me yet.

First of all, if you are trying to engage people in politics, they're usually not on social media for politics.

If they are, you don't have to engage them.

They're already.

Doni: They're really.

Jim: They're so.

So trying to get the people that get all their information through social media, but not from news, from their friends, from other things.

Very difficult.

Again, you have a lot of political consultants will tell you how you get there.

They're not there yet.

It's it's going to be a hard fought campaign to get them there.

Doni: Right.

And I think, too, in terms of responsibility, we need to be more comfortable with doing our homework.

Everything that we see on social media is not to be believed.

That's correct.

You know, and and it's an easy place to get our news.

But quite frankly, I'm not sure how much news we're really getting from social media.

Jim: Well, again, if you go to a, you know, The Washington Post Web site, a New York Times website or Wall Street Journal website, you get your news, right.

If you go to your Facebook friends or if you go to some other you know, you've got a lot of left and right wing, but mostly right wing media out there that uses social media.

And what they're telling you is not true.

Doni: I am so happy to have had you here today.

It's good to see you again, my friend.

I hope you'll come back.

Jim: Absolutely.

Doni: And we will see you next week.

On to the Point.

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They do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of WG Public Media.

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