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A plan to bring passenger rail back to much of Ohio could be on track a dozen years after it was first rejected.

And this time the proposal has support that some might find surprising.

That's this weekend.

The state of Ohio welcome to the state of Ohio.

I'm Karen Kasler.

The three C and D plan is back nearly a half a century after the three C corridor between Cleveland and Cincinnati was last used for passenger trains.

And 12 years after a plane was derailed, by Republican former Governor John Kasich.

The bipartisan infrastructure plan passed last year includes an $80 billion federal investment for passenger rail and Amtrak has announced that one of the projects could be another crack at creating a train system for passengers that goes from Cleveland to Columbus to Dayton to Cincinnati with other stops along the way.

And while it would still take five and a half hours to make the full trip, that takes 4 hours by car, and that's too long for many.

Amtrak says the expansion could bring in a half a million riders with an annual economic impact of nearly $130 million.

I sat down with two advocates for the proposal to talk about some of the specifics.

The federal infrastructure plan last year included $67 billion for passenger rail.

Last spring, Amtrak announced one project would be the long discussed three C a D corridor connecting Cleveland to Columbus, to Dayton, to Cincinnati.

Let's get some specifics on what this would look like.

Straight Shot Express or would there be stop several trains throughout the day, return trips the same day?

What can you tell us?

Well, it's a vision.

It's not a plan.

And our vision was at least three round trips between Cleveland, Columbus and Cincinnati via my hometown.

My mom wants me to say that Dayton.

And we estimated about 500 about a half million people would ride it to start.

We estimated a travel time of about five and a half hours, which gives you a chance to be productive and do everything on a train that you shouldn't do while driving, like reading, sleeping, working, doing texts, and do it in a way that uses existing infrastructure being upgraded, not mowing down people's houses and businesses.

That conversation, which we had a year ago spring, helped get Congress to where we are now with the biggest and best federal operating and capital support to build more rail networks, freight and passenger than we've ever had.

And I understand there's a funding deadline coming up Will we?

If Ohio's corridor is selected, this corridor is selected.

When would the first trains actually start launching?

We're a couple of years from that.

The first thing that has to happen is all across the country, people are looking at raising their hands and telling the Federal Railroad Administration to look at this corridor and look at that corridor or look at something that Morsi has been very interested in, which is Pittsburgh, Columbus, Fort Wayne, Chicago.

Once the feds have all of those expressions of support they're going to look at that and see basically which ones are the best to start off with.

And we're not gonna know the answer to that until sometime late next spring.

And then more federal money will be available to actually do real hardcore studies about what it would take, what the railroad needs to have done to it for trains to be driving time competitive so we're a ways off from my mom buying a ticket to visit me in Chicago, but it's within reach and it's the best ever federal operating support and the best ever federal capital support that we've seen in the more than 51 years of Amtrak.

At the more c, you are not just focused on the three C and D corridor there are other possible routes statewide and I imagine that is potentially to to bring more economic developments to maybe even minimize environmental impact.

Absolutely.

So Central Ohio is growing substantially and we see that out to 2050.

And we've seen that in the most recent economic development announcements.

And so supporting that and having a service like this of a first world city, first class city in Columbus, Ohio.

We we have to bring these options to the public that we're growing right there expecting that.

So that's what we're trying to drive.

And then through that we would like to also see those connections not only to Cleveland and Cincinnati, but over to Chicago, on up to Detroit and into Canada.

There is a potential here for Columbus to be a rail hub.

They are currently not on the map.

Having two lines would make them a hub, and we would like to see more than one line.

But 400,000 potential riders.

I mean, I'm wondering on trips I'm sorry, three round trip.

Well, I'm wondering when you talk about these people who want to see passenger rail service here.

Does what you'll be able to provide match with what they want?

I mean, multiple arrival and departure times, quick trip stops, they want reasonably priced these sorts of things.

Yeah.

I mean, certainly there is the potential to do that, especially with the investment that's being made by the federal government and the potential to partner with the with the private sector on this.

So there is opportunity to go beyond three, three trips a day and to bring up those frequencies.

But you have to start somewhere.

Amtrak has to build a business case for us.

Now, they have a great lead in the fact that we're a great place to come to.

But the next part is they have to get here and practice it.

And the only way they practice that is by doing that about three times a day.

And then they'll know, you know, maybe we need to be seven may, you know, maybe we need to do more stops, but we're here and we get that service off the ground.

That's the most important part.

And not just Columbus.

I mean, right.

As you said, we're talking to folks in Toledo and Cleveland.

We're talking to folks in Cincinnati right now.

We pass through northern Ohio In dark of night, unless you happen to be really wanting to ride.

And we appreciate everybody who rides out of our Cleveland station or Sandusky or Toledo.

We're not there in light of day.

Imagine if you had a better choice than the turnpike across northern Ohio.

That's doable.

Imagine a better way to get from Cleveland to Buffalo to New York City or from Toledo to Detroit, from Cleveland there on to Chicago.

Those are the 160 places we've talked about that need more service and that's doable.

There's models all over the country.

We've run five trains a day between Chicago and Saint Louis.

There's plenty of people say that's not enough.

Three is a starting point, and that travel time of about 5 hours plus is a starting point, not the end point.

In 2010.

The race for governor featured a lot of discussion about this project.

$400 million in federal funding to bring the three C and D corridor to Ohio.

Then governor while he was running for governor, John Kasich claimed that this project would cost all this money and would have an average speed of 39 miles an hour and it would take six and a half hours to go from Cleveland to Cincinnati.

ODOT disputed that in a report and said that there were some things that could be done differently and they would actually be closer to 5 hours and 15 minutes.

The average travel time would be 50 miles an hour.

What's different now, 12 years later from that project that got rejected essentially by incoming Governor John Kasich and what you're talking about now?

Well, firstly, there's more federal money to make the road faster, and every mile an hour we shave per minute.

We save off that time.

Not only helps those people who are riding those trains, it helps every freight shipper on that route.

By improving the railroad, you're improving it for both passenger and for freight.

And last I heard, people want the supply chain to work better.

So let's say that that this is a big aid, that nobody rides it.

Even at the end of the period, you're going to have an improved railroad diagonally across Ohio, potentially eastern west, across the top of Ohio.

And by doing it this way, the feds have said they're going to pay $0.90 on the dollar after the fare box to pay for the service.

The program wasn't that good back during the time you're citing.

So I don't have a chance to prove itself.

You'll end up with better railroad and a chance to build a business case that people can see what works in Illinois, what works in California, what works in Michigan can work here in Ohio.

Now, the idea of seeing Amtrak and passenger train service as public transit, this legislature hasn't been too friendly to public transit, public transit.

$140 million in the last two years, budget, highway spending got $5.6 billion.

So how do you deal with the legislature and the governor potentially that may not want to spend this money?

Because as I understand it, there's going to be a bill the state's going to have to pay to maintain this property once the first couple of years of full funding run low.

We have to build a business case and because the way this is structured with big federal funding at the beginning and lower federal funding, you can walk away from this at some time as a as the money on the state side gets higher.

But having $0.80 on the dollar to improve the railroad, coming from the feds, having $0.90 on the dollar to pay for the service coming from the feds gives it a chance to succeed or fail, you're never probably going to have the least in the 51 years there's been Amtrak a program as good as this to try it.

And again if it doesn't work you're still left with greatly improved freight railroad for the rest of your supply chain.

It's not like you know they're going to come by and pull the tracks and the rails up and and the ties.

And in fact when you invest in railroad improvement that lasts a lot longer than highway improvement.

Ten or 15 year, 20 year lifespans for improving the railroad versus highways.

And I use them all the time.

I used one today putting in a couple of inches of blacktop over the concrete over a couple of years.

You're doing that every couple of years.

When you invest in the railroads, you have a much longer lifespan for the quality that investment.

Well, and you'd ask about transit in the state of Ohio and the support of it.

I would say over the last couple of years, the legislature, we've been fortunate to maintain this and they've actually did an increase in transit funding in the state of Ohio back a couple of years ago.

We've been able to maintain that and be able to use that for transit across the state now.

Rail transit is a whole other bag of worms that that's considered regional.

So they haven't ever played in that field.

But I think the step they've taken with transit in the past already shows there's an interest because those transit services connect to these services.

We have to have them first in order to have these.

So we're making those steps.

I you know, I feel like we're on our path.

And certainly this is the next optimal step.

So hopefully we want to take it.

Do you think, though, that you have to convince people that rail travel is still that important leg here?

I think a lot of people think of rail travel as it's in the in the past and that they like their cars, they like the highways they they like airline travel.

They just don't see rail travel as being something that they want to do, have likable highways.

You are in a very different place than most of the places in this country.

That's I'll say that the Ohio D.O.T.

must be having likable highways.

I think it's more than eight.

I think it's more the cars that people like as opposed to the highways.

Okay.

I just want to make sure I was not misunderstanding because I came over here on I-70.

I didn't see a lot of smiles, but I look the fact is that people are looking for better choices and people are looking for other choices.

And people need to look beyond the state border to see success stories in California.

Which supposedly is a very car centric state.

We can't add trains fast enough to meet the demands in California, in Chicago, in Milwaukee, where we run about seven trains every day up and back seven round trips, we were pushing 900,000 customers pre-pandemic 900,000.

And some of those trains, we're getting to be standing room only now with all the business travel come back.

Who knows?

But certainly family travel, certainly recreational travel, certainly hospital travel to go to big hospitals centers, whether it's here, Dayton, Cincinnati or Columbus, all of that's really important to people.

My mother is never going to drive from Dayton to Columbus, much less Cincinnati or Chicago.

Having choices for people, having people using existing and improved infrastructure.

Once, once you have it and once you see how it works.

And I'd invite anyone to come visit us in any of our stations across the 46 states that Amtrak operates in and see how important it is in those cities.

Even if we're only there once a day, it's a big deal because people need choices.

People want choices.

Not everybody should drive.

Not everybody can So I have something to that.

You'd mentioned California.

I was recently talking to a colleague in San Francisco, and they in Tracy, California, which is outside of Palo Alto, where Apple and Google are at.

And they've had to add a train from this area out to Palo Alto.

And it is standing room only.

These are two high tech jobs, very similar to the Intel style jobs and is filled this train is filled with the types of people who work in those jobs.

That need to travel more than 60 minutes for work.

Tell me about an experience we're going to have in the state of Ohio where that could possibly be a legitimate concern.

Of ours.

Things are far from the past.

I mean, look at the Northeast.

Amtrak carries more customers between New York and Washington than all the airlines combined.

And we're pretty close to covering more than half of them between Boston and New York, even between Chicago and Saint Louis, where there are more flights than there are Amtrak trains.

We're about a third of all the travel between us and airlines.

So people don't want to ride in a lot of cases and little regional jets with little seats and your knees against your mouth and someone sitting next to you like this.

When a train can do it and when trains do it at places like the Milwaukee Airport, BWI Airport, Burbank Airport, Newark Airport, we're the last mile for people to get from that airport.

To their town.

And you don't have to drive and park and spend all that money.

So whether we're feeding airports or whether we're feeding downtowns or whether we're feeding business and industry, it works really well.

All you have to do is look beyond what you've had.

And unfortunately Columbus has not had service since 1979 service on the three C and A D was lost in the mid sixties.

So you need to see beyond what maybe some people are telling you, which is no one rides it anymore.

Because they ride it.

And finally.

Do we have any estimates on how much after that first three years of federal funding that it might cost to maintain the three C and D corridor here?

And that's what we're driving toward.

Once you're in the queue, once you raise your hand and say, we want to be considered, the next step will be much deeper.

Studies about how much really needs to be spent.

What's the current state of affairs?

Remember, these ridership estimates took place when gasoline was two and $3 a gallon.

Not four or five and six.

Right.

And I've not seen six in Chicago lately.

I've seen around the upper three is around four here now.

But each time you get to a pinch point for gas prices, three to four, four to five, five to six people start looking for other choices and for a lot of places and we'd like it to be more Amtrak's a great choice Is there the estimate in 2010 was about $17 million to maintain it.

Is that still possible or is that inflated dramatically because of all different things that have in inflated in 12 years the numbers change and the freight railroads have some different operating practices than they had then.

Right now the freight railroads are running freight trains that are two and three miles long miles.

So when that freight trains go in across the crossing, you see one locomotive or two or three at the front, one in the middle.

You might as well turn your car off and wait a while longer because a lot more train behind them.

So we have to see how the coast railroads are using their railroads today versus then they're running more of these running less coal traffic certainly isn't now and 20, 20 to what it was back then.

So we need to see that.

But in order to see it, you need to be in line to say you want it.

Well, and to that point, we've had a great experience in talking with the, the Michigan Legislature we were on board a train where Amtrak actually shared with them the the service that they've done there.

And they were able to explain how they've actually been able to bring down the cost of the maintenance over time by continually improving that line.

So we're seeing Amtrak do this in other places in the United States where they may start at a certain number.

But over time, because the increase in the service ticket prices are tickets go up because of interest and the speed goes up, that means the operating costs actually goes down because the ticket agents get paid the same, whether they're servicing five trains, three trains or 20 trains.

Right.

Hourly employees on Amtrak trains, which do a great job, one that I could never even try to do, are paid hourly.

So the shorter the train runs in time, the more value you get out of each employee.

So there's plenty of ways to drive the cost down.

The Midwestern states of Illinois, Michigan, Missouri and Wisconsin have bought their own rail equipment, which they own, and we run for them, which is another way of driving down cost.

So there's ways to get there.

And last question, what kind of support is there beyond just the people at this table for this project?

Yeah, I think there is a lot you know, I've talked to a number of businesses, you know, one in downtown right here on the Capitol Square who was working with a building owner.

And the building owner was shocked to find out that his property wasn't served by rail.

You know, so that was, you know, was like, why not?

Of course.

Right.

So we're hearing from businesses more than ever that they're interested also through various state associations, we're hearing that, you know, other cities would be interested in proceeding in reverse and partnerships partnerships, chambers of commerce.

You know, I've not only talked to those in Columbus, but I have had conversations with my colleagues across the state in similar level positions and chambers and partnerships.

We're really just trying to determine and work with the state to determine what the next steps are for them.

And that will help us determine what our next steps as a group is.

In 2010, the three C and D proposal DI not just because then Governor elect John Kasich said he would reject the $400 million in federal funding for it, but also because Republicans at the State House were concerned about the costs of running trains long term.

But that may not be the case this time.

I talked with the Republican State Senator about that.

You describe yourself as a strong conservative.

You voted against and spoken out against spending that you feel is excessive.

For instance, you said that the American rescue plans funds should be sent back to the federal government.

But you wrote in an op ed for the Dayton Daily News that, quote, I believe Ohio should thoroughly explore the most recent proposal from Amtrak.

Why?

Well, I think that there's two separate issues here, right.

First is the Amtrak proposal, which to me is intriguing, being able to connect our citizens to the rest of the Midwest and the East Coast and maybe even the South via the train system, I think especially to younger Ohioans, is something that's very appealing.

And I'm the youngest member of the Senate, and that is appealing.

However, what I have said and at the time of the op ed, I said, you know, that needs to be done through federal spending.

That is bipartisan.

And unfortunately, the transportation bill, the infrastructure bill that this was included with was not very bipartisan, picked up a few Republican votes in the Senate and a few in the House, but by large majority of Republicans in the federal House and the federal Senate voted against this bill because of gluttonous and excessive spending.

And so I'm very concerned of where this money is coming from.

I wish that, you know, the Democrats in Congress and work with the Republicans on this to come up with this money instead of the way they did it.

When you talk about being supportive of this, though, because it could connect our citizens, do you mean people in the Dayton area that you represent or do you mean the whole state of Ohio?

Are you on board with this potentially because it does help your community?

Well, the most recent map that they put out actually, unfortunately, does not include Dayton.

I think it goes bypasses Dayton, which I think is problematic.

But no, I think that, you know, citizens across Ohio could be better for it.

I think that, you know, it's a worthy proposal to look at.

But I think even if we set aside where the money came from through the federal infrastructure bill that was highly Democratic, there's still a question of how much is the state on the hook for now?

You know, the governor announced that he's putting together a group in his administration to study that question.

I think that's the right move.

But I think that we have to look at what is the cost to the taxpayers of Ohio and then will it will it be worth it depending on that costs?

Your fellow Republican in the House, Representative Firas Gambari, is the only Republican who signed on to a resolution urging Congress to fund the Amtrak plan.

That's true.

Republicans then that have come out in support of this.

Have you talked to other Republicans about this?

For instance, Speaker Bob Kopp and Senate President Matt Huffman, both from Lima, which is not one of the cities that would directly benefit?

Well, you know, I would I would just push back and say, you know, they could benefit because they'll be within 45 minutes of an Amtrak stop.

Right.

I mean, you know, even if you're in Chicago, you're not necessarily close to an Amtrak stop.

Unless you live downtown.

Just the same in the airport.

Right.

I have to drive 30 minutes to get to the Dayton Airport.

So the same thing would be for Amtrak.

So I would I would, you know, hasten that.

But look, I think that, you know, we as Republicans in general should be concerned with spending.

Unfortunately, I feel like this General Assembly, we have not been concerned with spending in our budget.

We taxed and spent nearly every dollar we could have provided a bigger tax cut.

And then we've spent all these federal dollars that I believe should be sent back to the federal government And so with this, though, I do think that we have to be very concerned.

What is the state share here and what is the state share in ten years?

Right.

We've got to remember, this is not just a one year kind of this is a lifetime commitment for the state of Ohio.

And I think we just have to be very, very careful and concern in ensuring we know what that looks like.

Have you heard from any business groups on whether they support this?

Because I would imagine that the support of groups like the Ohio Chamber of Commerce would be critical to getting this project going and especially getting Republicans on board.

No, I don't think, you know, any of the business groups have weighed in either at the state or locally.

But, you know, I do think, you know, I will say that I hear from citizens, which is why, you know, I'm interested in this.

And, you know, I understand.

Let's look at you.

You talk to all my friends on the East Coast.

One of their one of the benefits is that, you know, they're on Amtrak and they can take an hour train in New York City or to Boston or to Philly or to D.C., etc.

So, you know, yes, if you can take a train to Chicago or Nashville or Detroit, you know, it could be, you know, a selling point for us, which is why I think we should look at it.

But I think we got to be very careful and consider where the money came from and also very careful concern about what the state share of that money is.

And that's it for this week for my colleagues at the Statehouse News Bureau of Ohio Public Radio and Television.

Thanks for watching.

Please check out our Web site at State News dot org and follow us on the show on Facebook and Twitter And please join us again next time for the state of Ohio.

Support for the statewide broadcast of the state of Ohio comes from medical mutuel, providing more than 1.4 million Ohioans peace of mind with a selection of health insurance plans online at med mutual dot com slash Ohio by the law offices of Porter Wright Morris and Arthur LLP.

Now with eight locations across the country, Porter Right is all legal partner with a new perspective to the business community.

More at Porter right dot com and from the Ohio Education Association representing 124,000 members who work to inspire their students to think creatively and experience the joy of learning online at OHEA.org.