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Governor Mike DeWine wants Ohioans to reject a proposed redistricting amendment.

And trust Republicans to come up with a better plan.

But backers of the amendment say politicians have had their chance.

That's this week in the state of Ohio.

Welcome to the state of Ohio.

I'm Joe Ingles sitting in for Karen Kasler.

Governor Mike DeWine is blasting a redistricting amendment set for the fall ballot, which would strip politicians of power over drawing lawmakers districts and give it over to a 15 member citizen panel.

If this ballot proposal were to be adopted, Ohio would actually end up with a system that mandates, that mandates, that compels map draws to produce gerrymandered districts.

In fact, Ohio would have gerrymandering in the extreme.

DeWine is opposing the amendment, which would disband the Ohio redistricting Commission, which he and six other elected officials said on.

DeWine said the process and the amendment would not keep communities together, but would prioritize proportionality, keeping people who are like minded politically or who vote a certain way together.

He said that will mean gerrymandered districts One of the reasons that voters will be unhappy with the maps that the amendment will produce is that the fall ballot proposal will makes proportionality.

It makes it king.

Proportionality under this constitutional amendment must supersede everything else.

A spokesman for the group behind the amendment says DeWine has got it all wrong.

Chris Davey was citizens, not politicians, says former Ohio Supreme Court Chief Justice Maureen O'Connor, the lone Republican to vote to reject the maps approved by the redistricting commission, wants to talk to DeWine about it.

the fact of the matter is the first criteria for drawing the maps under the citizens, not politicians amendment would be, in fact, that the districts must be geographically contiguous, that they comply with the United States Constitution and that they comply with the Voting Rights Act.

Davey notes Ohioans passed reforms that were supposed to end gerrymandering in 2015 and in 2018, but it hasn't worked out that way for one key reason.

the problem was the politicians were kept in charge, and they continued to past seven times.

They passed maps that were determined to be unconstitutional, seven times.

the redistricting commission that governor DeWine is on impose those maps on the Ohio voters, and the Ohio voters have stepped forward and said, yeah, no, I think what we need to do is get the politicians out of the map drawing room.

So that's what we're going to do.

In making his comments about changing redistricting, DeWine says if voters reject the constitutional amendment on the November ballot, he's promising to work with legislative leaders in the next General Assembly next year to pass a plan similar to the one that's been in place in Iowa for decades.

DeWine showed maps drafted by citizens and a professional mapmaker who worked for Democrats during the most recent redistricting process and says both have problems.

The Iowa plan is simple, it is clear, and it takes politics out of the map drawing process forever.

So what is the Iowa plan?

To learn more about it.

We turn to Sam Wang, a redistricting expert He's published work on redistricting and examined different methods being used by various states for drawing lines.

it's one of the earliest approaches to, coming up with nonpartisan approaches to redistricting.

And it dates to a time when it was possible for, administrative staff to make a recommendation and have it taken up without controversy.

And so, because of the culture of Iowa, they've actually been fairly fortunate in being able to use that output without a lot of rancor and division at the legislative level.

the plans recommended by the Iowa Commission are, optional for adoption by the legislature.

They can turn it down and replace it with their own if they follow the mechanisms that are in Iowa law.

Now, you just said, because of the culture of Iowa, is Iowa's, make up different than Ohio?

Is it much smaller, much more compact?

I mean, what what are you talking about?

I think, it's it's just that Iowa has a longer history of dealing with, nonpartisan redistricting since the Iowa example.

As I said, it was one of the earliest.

there have been several decades of, attempts at redistricting reform.

And ever since the 1990s, American politics has gotten more polarized and more contentious.

And so with that, it's become necessary to put in more seatbelts, to write into the law the kind of good faith that people used to engage in back in the 1980s.

And so now, there have been later experiments plugging loopholes, there been loopholes closed, progressively, successively more and more careful approaches to the law in Arizona, Michigan, Colorado.

and the proposed initiative that's on the ballot in Ohio.

learns from all those examples, not only Iowa, but also the improvements that have come afterward.

So the current redistricting proposal that's on the ballot has elements of Iowa in it.

Then it does.

It has elements of Iowa in it.

But what it does is it puts it in the hands of, experts working for citizens.

So it's a commission of Democrats, Republicans and independents.

They come together and they have to vote on a supermajority basis in order to pass anything.

And so, the proposed law in Ohio that's on the ballot this November, requires a consensus to be reached among these different factions.

Is that an improved version of Iowa?

Maybe.

Yes.

The closest model, to the Ohio proposal is what was passed in Michigan a few years ago.

and also in, as I said, in Colorado and Arizona.

So, so the idea is to build a mechanism where these three different groups, partizans.

And also people who are not partizans and all have to come together, work together, have public hearings.

there's a fairly detailed procedure in the Ohio law that, that learns from a more recent example.

and the most recent examples are Michigan and Colorado.

The Iowa plan itself, going back to it, it ultimately still depends on lawmakers in the legislature to pass it.

Right.

Yes.

Lawmakers must still approve the plan.

In Iowa and in Ohio, we have had law, in Ohio, we have had a legislature that has been fractured where it is difficult to get anything passed.

Do you think that that could be a problem if, if they if the ballot measure is scrapped in November and somehow we come back with an Iowa plan, the legislature comes back with an Iowa plan next year.

That depends on the legislature to pass it.

Do you think there could be enough contention that it could be a problem?

Well, the way I would put it is that any state that has one party firmly in control is going to have, a natural conflict of interest in doing a good job in redistricting.

whether it's Republicans or Democrats in charge, over and over, we've seen, at the gerrymandering project, we've seen examples where a single party in charge, has very little incentive to take into account, a broad range of needs, whether it be of communities or political parties, or any really needs of the state.

it's just the temptation is overwhelming to deal, and it's just really hard for any human, including a politician, to, to overcome that temptation.

Is there a magic bullet out there for redistricting?

Some method that really seems to work?

Or do you think the Ohio plan that's proposed is that method, the Ohio plan that's on the ballot this November comes the closest to being, a silver bullet to getting to the fair district thing.

it's, of course, tough to come up with a good plan.

justice is tough to come up with a bullet proof, say, contract when you're selling a house.

but a lot of, good people have thought pretty hard about the Ohio proposal, and they've figured out ways to make sure that everyone's needs are accounted for, and there's an equitable outcome.

It's, it appears I would say, in comparison to other recently enacted plans, it appears to be a pretty good, a pretty good strategy for, closing loopholes.

O'Connor helped write the citizens not politicians amendment.

And she noted the Iowa plan DeWine was talking about still gives him and other politicians the final say on maps.

And she says, now, a little more than three months prior to the election, he's scheming to overturn what voters will pass in November.

O'Connor says the backers of the citizens, not politician amendment, are done listening to self-serving politicians telling them how they want to keep rigging the game.

And she adds, on to November.

So what effect will this proposed redistricting amendment have on the November election?

To answer that question, I spoke to two political experts Brianna mack, assistant professor of politics and government at Ohio Wesleyan University, and Paul Beck, professor emeritus of political science at the Ohio State University.

Well, I think the fair district thing, initiative on the ballot will probably encourage the same voters who turned out for the special election last year.

I think the results from last year also invigorated.

I would argue, the same base.

And so those folks will turn out again to ensure that future elections 2628 onward.

Right.

Would have more equitable districts.

And so, since the redistricting fiasco has been such for the last few years, that there have been a number of folks who have been discouraged.

But learning that the ballot, you know, the, petitions had received enough signatures and that it would appear that there is some excitement there.

Yeah.

And you know, the we should mention that the redistricting amendment has support from both Republicans and Democrats and, former chief justice of the Ohio Supreme Court, a Republican, Maureen O'Connor, actually helped craft that amendment.

So, it's not a Democratic policy, if you will, although Republicans would say it definitely, benefits Democrats.

But, you know, what do you think about that?

I think voters are justifiably angry that they twice voted for redistricting reform and twice were turned down by the legislature.

and, of course, the Supreme Court had sided the legislature and pushed them to try to follow up with the constitutional amendment as it had been passed.

and so I think it's going to mobilize voters.

and as she pointed out, it's going to help fuel turnout on the Democratic side.

because I think voters now having been twice dissed are going to say to the legislature, we don't want to hear from you.

We don't want to hear something that is so patently obvious, a gerrymander in favor of the Republicans.

the the fair districting amendment may have some flaws to it, but it looks like it's been very tightly framed to try to avoid the pitfalls that previous ones had.

that could be bypassed by by legislative majorities.

Now, about ten years ago, we saw redistricting amendments, on the ballot.

in fact, that's what set up the system we now have because one of them passed.

But that was the one that Republicans kind of got on board and, you know, moved it ahead.

but we saw back then a lot of confusion over redistricting.

People didn't understand it so much.

Do people understand redistricting better now?

I mean, what's the what's the take away on that?

I would like to believe at least my students and an alumni, they understand it better because we go over it repeatedly in intro as well as in voters in elections.

But I think I would like to believe that most people understand that, you know, after a decade or so, you know, we run through the process with the census, with the census, and then there's reapportionment and there's redistricting, and that for some reason, Ohio, we just we're stuck in this loop here at the redistricting part, because the districts just don't seem representative and we want them to be representative.

And so perhaps that's where that frustration is.

But I would like to believe that most folks do actually understand how the process works.

It's just that for Ohio, we're just not reaching that endpoint.

And it's not through any fault of the voters themselves.

What do you think?

Well, I think it was a masterstroke to label that citizens, not politicians, because politicians are held in very low esteem.

maybe deservedly so, but certainly they are held in low esteem.

and the idea of some kind of a citizens commission that doesn't contain any, at least active politicians, I think it's something that's going to resonate with voters.

and so sometimes how you label something can create can cut through the confusion about it.

and I think this, this will successfully do that.

The switch at the top of the Democratic ticket continues to play out here in Ohio.

Since President Biden announced he wasn't running for reelection and put his weight behind Vice President Kamala Harris.

She's been making waves.

I asked Beck and Mack about their thoughts on how that switch will affect the Ohio ballot.

I think Ohio is a lost cause for the Democratic Party because we have what we, the GOP, has JD Vance.

So now with Trump having JD Vance as his running mate and he's Ohio's junior senator, I think that Ohio is a shoo in for the GOP.

What about you, Paul?

Well, I'm not so sure.

I think that Ohio has been a Trump state, obviously.

whether it now is in the Republican column, aside from Trump, I don't know for sure.

And if you think back, Cordray and DeWine, when they ran against each other, that was a fairly close race.

even though DeWine was a very well known commodity in Ohio, Cordray left.

So, and so I think that Ohio is recoverable by the Democrats, whether they have the ability to do that is clear.

they've particularly taken a bath in rural areas and small towns.

and it's been mostly because of lower turnout among Democrats in those areas who just are not enthused about the Democratic Party anymore.

if Kamala were to choose a vice presidential running mate who might be able to draw well among rural and small town voters, not win a majority, that's likely to happen.

but she could recover some of the ground that the Democrats had lost there.

it wasn't so long ago a little Obama won Ohio twice.

That is true.

And Trump won it only with 51 and 53% of the vote.

That's a bare majority.

so there's you know, there are a lot of Ohioans who don't necessarily want to vote Republican, but they will, given the kinds of choices maybe, that they have.

So what effect do you think Harris's campaign will have on US Senator Sherrod Brown's campaign in November?

Well, I think that what Sherrod Brown was hoping for and finally he announced this, that Biden would indeed drop out because he felt that Biden at the top of the ticket was really going to be damaging to him.

And I think that feeling was probably correct.

having Harris there may not help him in a positive sense, but it probably won't hurt him also, so that I think is good news for Brown was going to be a very close contest anyway, I think, but Brown has a survivability that is actually remarkable.

he's been reelected time and time again, in years where you thought he's not going to win.

but indeed he does.

So I think that he has what, a level of authenticity that Ohioans like.

And he draws better in rural areas and small towns, than the typical Democrat does.

Brianna, what's your thoughts on that?

I agree 100%.

So coming teaching in a rural area, I know that there are a lot of individuals who like Sherrod Brown because he appeals to the blue collar, to the rural worker.

And so I believe with Harris's campaign, I think it would not only attract still younger voters, it would still allow Brown to actually continue mobilizing rural area voters.

Okay, so, have you noticed a difference in the messaging in the recent weeks since, this switch is taken place?

I've noticed that, Harris's campaign in particular, because I'm on TikTok.

And so seeing the ads and, you know, as I mentioned before, Beyonce's music.

So we're talking more about these virtues and really pushing for this whole message about saving democracy.

And we're going to push forward and continue to provide you younger folks with, you know, the promises of an American life, you know, life, liberty, pursuit of happiness.

You're going to get, you know, be able to buy property.

You'll be able to start a family if you want to.

You'll be able to get an education if you want to.

All of these things that are being talked about being removed through project 2025.

And so while she hasn't, to my knowledge, explicitly started attacking project 25 yet, but she is making, you know, these references to tackling that.

And we should say that project 2025 is attached to the Heritage Foundation, a conservative group.

and a lot of thought has been given that, the same people who push the Heritage Foundation are some of the people who are Republican.

you know, active in the Republican Party and probably have a at least president, former President Trump's ears.

Yes.

So, let me ask you what what are your thoughts on that?

Well, in terms of project 2025, obviously it has fingerprints all over it that are fingerprints from the former Trump administration.

and JD Vance is writing, I believe it's the preface to the book that's going to come out.

I would guess that the Trump campaign is not particularly happy about that.

and in fact, has not been really happy about the rollout of JD Vance and actually coming back to Ohio for a minute.

I think JD Vance is not the JD Vance he was when he won the Senate race.

A lot has come out since then that makes him look well, the term that the the Democrats are using to attac and I think that that is probably accurate, that he's taken positions that are just really odd position to take.

and he's doubled down on those positions.

A cat lady.

Exactly.

That comment about, you know, families getting more votes than right.

people who don't have families.

Yeah.

And they're just things that he didn't need to say.

But I think in the heat of the moment, back before he was a candidate for vice president, they seemed like natural things to say.

And he indeed said them.

the other thing about project 2025 is that a lot of the things that they're proposing have been proposed by Republicans for years and years.

So a lot of them are familiar things.

they've kind of soft pedal the idea of cuts to the social safety net, particularly Medicare and Social Security.

But there's still hints of that in there.

they also are reflecting the turn that Trump has created for the Republicans away from some of the traditional Republican policies, to oppose open trade, to want to slap on tariffs.

certainly the whole issue, of choice is there.

and, of course, Vance has doubled down on that as well.

And getting rid of Noah whether.

Yes.

Agency.

So yeah.

Yeah.

So, turn out though you you were talking about this a little bit earlier.

Turnout is key in this.

does this change just having Harris in the race now, does that change the the energy or the will of some voters to make it to the polls?

I think it does.

I think there are particularly three groups that she is.

Her her candidacy has basically mobilized.

One is young people, as Brianna was was suggesting.

Second one is African Americans.

and you've seen visible evidence of that as well.

And then thirdly, people who were not all that happy about Biden, who had voted for him, maybe in 2020, but were not enthused by him.

There's a level of enthusiasm, at least right now, in the Harris campaign, and it may get sustained over time.

It may not, but but right now it's there.

She has the momentum right now, which is important.

she's going to ride that momentum, I think, as long as she can.

And that, of course, leads to greater enthusiasm.

You saw it in the number of volunteers that she attracted just after she had announced her campaign.

you saw the the volume of money that was flowing into that campaign, an unprecedented amount of million or more, I think.

Yeah, 200 million o 200, and much of it from first time donors, which is interesting.

It's that time of year for a tax free holiday.

And this year's holiday, which began Tuesday, runs ten days, ending on Thursday, August 8th.

You can buy more products this year.

Virtually everything under $500.

Clothes, school equipment, appliances and furniture.

It's all tax free, and you can even dine in a restaurant tax free this year.

But alcohol cigarets, marijuana, they're exempt from the sales tax break and so are cars and boats.

So that's it for this week for my colleagues at the Statehouse News Bureau of Ohio Public Radio and Television.

Thanks for watching.

Please check out our website at State news.org or find us online by searching the State of Ohio show.

you can also hear more from our bureau on our podcast, The Ohio State House scoop.

Look for it every Monday morning wherever you get your podcasts.

And please join us next time for the state of Ohio.

We leave you now with sights and sounds from the Ohio State Fair.

What to do?

Support for the Statehouse News Bureau comes from Medical Mutual, dedicated to the health and well-being of Ohioans, offering health insurance plans, as well as dental, vision and wellness programs to help people achieve their goals and remain healthy.

More at Med mutual.com.

The law offices of Porter, right, Morris and Arthur LLP.

Porter Wright is dedicated to bringing inspired legal outcomes to the Ohio business community.

More at porterwright.com.

Porter Wright inspired Every day in Ohio Education Association, representing 120,000 educators who are united in their mission to create the excellent public schools.

Every child deserves more at OHEA.org.