Support for the Statehouse News Bureau comes from the law offices of Porter, Wright, Morris and Arthur LLP.

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inspired every day.

And from the Ohio education Association, representing 120,000 educators who are united in their mission to create the excellent public schools every child deserves.

More at OHEA.org Preparing for nasty Ohio's spring weather before it hits.

And a second proposed constitutional amendment for this fall is circulating.

Two experts with often opposite views have thoughts on data centers and property taxes that some might find surprising.

This weekend, the state of Ohio Just.

Welcome to the state of Ohio.

I'm Karen Kasler.

Spring in Ohio can mean snow or heat, but almost always brings tornado sirens and weather radio alerts.

Safety experts say people need to figure out what to do before a tornado, thunderstorm or wind storm hits, such as going to the basement, but that's not possible for many Ohioans.

State House correspondent Joe Ingles reports.

There are other options, but they have to be planned.

It's been about two years since this tornado ripped through Indian Lake in western Ohio, killing three people and leaving hundreds of homes and businesses damaged in the wake.

And while tornadoes can happen at any time, the deadliest tornadoes on record in Ohio have hit in April, including the EF5 twister with winds of more than 300mph that destroyed much of Xenia and killed 33 people in 1974.

That storm spotlighted the need for safe spots for people to seek shelter during dangerous storms.

There have been over the past, probably 15 years or so, a number of safe rooms, community safe rooms that have been installed in key locations.

Several in Licking County, one in Delaware County.

This concrete and steel tornado shelter might look like something out of the Jetsons.

It's in a campground area at Delaware State Park.

We know that tents and RVs can be extremely susceptible to tornadic winds, or even extremely fast, straight line winds from other severe weather events.

And this gives folks an opportunity to shelter from those storms.

Delaware County EMA Director Alex McCarthy says this bubble is hard to pop.

We have, the ability here to withstand up to EF5 winds and even faster in that.

Rated for up to 250mph.

There is the ability for folks to bring pets and animals in here, so long as those pets are on leashes and fully controlled.

And it is also built to be compliant with all the Ada laws.

It's not made for comfort, no cots, and it can house up to 850 people at one time.

Sometimes it can be a little noisy in here if it's packed with people.

So make sure you bring earplugs or headphones if you do have an aversion to loud noises.

Ohio EMA says it's hard to tell how many shelters and safe rooms are in the state, but 374 such facilities have been built with FEMA grants since 2013.

They could be constructed for people living in mobile homes that can be picked off their foundation by deadly tornadoes.

And the shelters can serve multiple purposes.

And the two in Licking County are manufactured.

Home communities.

And the idea being there on a normal basis, those safe rooms can be used for meetings.

Other purposes.

But during severe weather, if there's a tornado warning issued, folks in those locations can go there for near absolute protection.

When a tornado warning comes, people living in upper floors of apartments need to go somewhere safe, preferably with a basement if not to an inside room with no windows.

But there's one population at particular risk.

Unhoused Ohioans Marcus Roth is with co-CEO, the Coalition on Homelessness and Housing in Ohio.

So a lot of folks living on the land, don't know when there's a tornado coming.

Ross says there's no strategic messaging, and it's often hard to warn homeless Ohioans to seek shelter when they may not have cell phones to get alerts.

Hopefully, they have street outreach workers going out and visiting folks, checking on them, trying to get them into, programs and, and services.

But in some places, it just depends on what resources each community devotes to these kinds of street outreach and other kinds of services.

Miller says the most important thing is to think about what your emergency plan will be before a tornado watch or warning is imminent.

Because the one place you don't want to be is on the road.

Staying in your car presents, risk finding a ditch presents risk.

Both are not, a good place to be.

So in that given scenario, the driver or the passengers will have to make tough decisions very quickly.

But again, the best, the best alternative is to get to shelter beforehand.

But the most important thing is to have a plan and have a plan before you need it.

Joe Ingles, statehouse news Bureau.

A repeal of a law that changed existing legislation on marijuana and banned most intoxicating hemp, including THC and CBD beverages, will not make the ballot.

Ohioans for Cannabis Choice, made up of hemp retailers and other advocates, did not gather enough signatures to stop Senate Bill 56 from taking effect on Friday.

There are now two citizen initiated efforts to put constitutional amendments before voters in November.

One is the amendment to abolish property taxes, which has been gathering signatures for months.

The one that started this week is a ban on large data centers, which use more than 25MW.

The group of rural Ohioans calling themselves Adams County for Responsible Development just filed that with the Ohio Attorney General's office this week.

AG Dave Yost has until Thursday to determine if the petition is accurate and truthful, and then it has to go to the Ohio Ballot Board.

If it's approved, those activists would have the same signature requirement and deadline as those working to abolish the property tax.

413,446 valid signatures by July 1st, which means gathering many more than that to cover signatures that are ruled invalid.

I talked about both of those issues with Greg Lawson from the conservative Buckeye Institute and Hannah Halbert of the Progressive Policy Matters, Ohio.

This week.

I started with how they feel about the data Centers amendment.

Terrible idea.

Totally against it.

I think it's very bad for Ohio.

But even more importantly than that, I think it's bad for national security.

Data centers are very important.

We are in AI.

First of all, jobs are important, and there's certainly some of that.

But there's a much bigger issue here that I think sometimes is not really thought through, which is the 30,000ft view is we're in a kind of a tech Cold War AI race with China.

And this is a really big issue.

It's almost like a modern Sputnik moment, if you will.

And I get that.

There's a lot of consternation about these things and some of the ways in which they've come into certain communities.

But if we start doing that, not in my backyard or Nimby everywhere in Ohio, and that starts, you know, spreading like wildfire and other states, we could actually have ourselves a real issue here.

This isn't how the United States won the Cold War.

And if we're in a tech Cold War, we need to be able to win it.

And we cannot have that taking away our ability.

Hannah, what do you think about this amendment?

You know, this is one of those areas where you're going to see some topline agreement from the two that say, think tanks looking at this thing.

I think that the property tax I'm sorry, I think that the data center, ballot initiative, is a bad strategy for a good idea and a good impulse.

So the concerns that people are raising are legitimate from how data centers are impacting our water, how, the data centers are impacting our electricity bills, how data centers are basically sorting, then locating in communities.

You know, if you have a mega center and a, diesel run power generator up against your back fence, you're going to have some concern.

So I think the people that are bringing these things forward are absolutely, on track that their concerns should be heard.

Ideally, our state legislature would be hearing those, and we wouldn't have to take extreme measures like a ban.

And we could really get ahead of it.

Look.

Oh, how is on the we're looking at something like a fourth industrial revolution, right.

This is a sea change in how, our economy is going to be.

And in the future, Ohioans, both workers and residents, need to be at the forefront of policymaking.

I think this initiative is, trying to get them, on the table and not just on the new policy matters.

Ohio has written a data center policy platform where you've, proposed several things that you'd like to see with regard to data centers.

But to Greg's point, if you limit them to the point where they don't come here, does that set Ohio back and make it?

I mean, we all use data centers in the sense of our phones.

They're needed for business.

Does that, said Ohio back.

If we regulate them too much.

Yeah.

Well, the the interesting thing is, is that even some of the CEOs that are opening these data centers here that are champion, these have said, hey, we don't need these incentives to build here.

The fact is, is that Ohio has the right geography, the right landscape, right climate to locate data centers like they need this land in this space.

And I think the state and the citizens should be driving a hard bargain to to make sure that their interests and their concerns are dealt with, that the gains of this, development isn't just accruing to some of the wealthiest corporations on the planet, but to those communities that are seeing them happen in their in their backyards.

Now, Greg, I want to ask you specifically about one thing that you're concerned about, a bipartisan bill that would expand the, a EAP tariff throughout the state that requires any new data center to commit to covering the cost of at least 85% of the energy they say they will use, even if they use less.

You've said while unpacking it's due to said.

While this appears to be an effort to prevent cost shifting from data centers to ratepayers, the result will be the data centers will build their own energy generation and the utility won't make any money, so it will result in cost shifting to ratepayers.

There is that potential because you're going to see a lot of what they call behind the meter, where people co-locate, and we're seeing that like Matt is doing a big, natural gas.

I think they're actually using two turbines out in New Albany that are not actually going to be even connected to the grid, so they're going to be able to get those up and running a lot faster.

But those again, they because they're not connected, they shouldn't have any of the dislocation of the cost to the, to the residents and stuff.

But that is in some sense we actually think that's not a bad thing, that they do some of that.

But there's larger costs over time, because if you get some of these days, if you look at some of the states, like Virginia, which is actually number one, we're number five for the most data centers in the country.

But if you look at some of these, you actually see that the per kilowatt hour tax or, rate is sometimes a little bit lower, even with a lot of data centers.

Now, now, electricity is a very complicated subject because some of this is definitely data centers.

There's no doubt about it.

They're increasing demand.

Some of it is some of the various sorts of electricity we've taken off of the table throughout variety of policies, even within the fact that we're in a 13 state grid.

So this is an extremely complicated issue.

So utilities have a role to play as well as the data centers have a role to play.

I want to ask you both about the jobs that data centers would create.

I mean, the Ohio Chamber of Commerce has put out a report saying 200 data centers in Ohio, and they're responsible for more than 95,000 jobs as of 2024.

Now, I know there's been some questions raised about jobs.

And let me start with you, Hannah.

Not necessarily a lot of permanent jobs, but certainly a lot of construction jobs that are well-paid union jobs.

They do create jobs.

Absolutely.

So here here's the thing is that, we have to think about what is responsible development and what are the who's the winners and losers in this game.

And the fact is, is that over the long term, the permanent job creation of data centers is really low.

The construction phase and even some of the maintenance, some of the maintenance agreements that go into those and those can create high quality union jobs.

The problem is, is that the state and a lot of these localities are giving away the store.

These data centers are going to locate here.

And this is just we've heard it from the CEOs.

The tax incentives aren't the thing that's driving them.

It's our location and we can drive a better bargain.

We can have industrial policy that both creates jobs but protects those local communities interest and protects things like our natural resources.

That's that's not, that complicated.

And I don't know that that would be that controversial here in Ohio is that we can actually do hard things and figure out a way to make sure that people have pathways into solid, well-paying union jobs, that this is an industry that is, well regulated here in Ohio, and that we have a sustainable policy over the long term.

Is there real proof, besides that Chamber of Commerce report, that that is what data centers are doing, that they are creating this huge economic impact and they are creating jobs?

Well, I think there's an I and I've looked at some of the stuff in the chamber report.

I think it's directionally right.

You know, you can always quibble around some of the individual things.

There's it's not just those on side jobs.

I think Hannah mentioned a number of the it's the construction jobs, but it's also those maintenance jobs.

They have to update equipment on an ongoing basis, kind of a rotating basis.

There's also supplier jobs.

There's a lot of things like that.

And I think that's also what the chamber report was looking at.

It's not just those jobs.

It's some of those ancillary jobs.

They're indirect and diffuse, but they but they exist.

I will say one thing where I also agree is we are rolling out the red carpet, and I think we have a lot of advantages here.

And there is a series of tax incentives and things that probably we should be taking a real hard look at, tax abatements, tax abatements.

Now, there's there's a big a lot of discussion at the state House about, overturning the governor's line item veto regarding a sales tax exemption.

We actually think the sales tax exemption makes sense.

It's actually very similar to a manufacturing sales tax exemption.

And not to get too, economic and nerdy or anything about that.

But if you look at sales tax, was we at the end point of where you are purchasing a good or a service if you're doing it on something in terms of how it's being made and constructed in the process, you're actually inflating the cost or providing the cost.

What I think is a bigger challenge our property tax abatements, we are doing massive property tax abatements on these things.

And I think that's also what's getting a lot of folks at the local level really irked about this is, you know, some of these ancillary jobs we're talking about may not be in your community.

They may be miles away.

Right.

And yet you're giving away local tax dollars that are local school dollars, local fire and police dollars and all the other kind of services.

I think that kind of ties into the other issue we're going to talk about as well.

We need to put some guardrails, I think, on some of the property tax abatements, both for data centers.

And frankly, Ohio really needs to think about doing that more broadly, because I think we do way too many property tax abatements.

And that's part of the problem we have with property taxes, too.

I think that's one area where Hannah would agree.

Well, I think they're reading our reports on this because we absolutely this sells tax exemption.

Absolutely.

That that should go whenever the reports jobs per tax giveaway.

When you do that math here, it's like $1 million per job.

It just it's silliness.

No, that makes no sense.

And the Ohio Legislature actually agrees with us.

They pass that they got rid of that little giveaway in the last budget, but it's overridden by the governor's veto.

I would love to see that brought back up.

We have real needs in this state closing that we could fund, free childcare for childcare workers, several times over with just that one loophole closure, and certainly with the property tax giveaways, again, like, if we continue to shrink the base of where we're collecting money from, it's going to continue to pinch people.

And that's where we're seeing like this property tax ballot amendment.

People are really tired of seeing tax breaks for they everyone else, but none for me.

And there's a way that we could protect our revenue, actually fund some stuff again that people need and want, like childcare, like public schools.

And close up some of these, these big dollar, loopholes.

Let's move to property taxes.

Another issue that you folks agree on is that you are concerned and opposed to the property tax abolishment amendment that could make the ballot this year.

Great.

I want to ask you, the Buckeye Institute put forward ten recommendations on property tax reform last summer.

You've gotten a couple of those through.

Lawmakers have passed a couple of those.

But there are some other recommendations, such as eliminating the 20 mill floor.

And again, we're getting into that nerdy weed area there on that.

That may involve a constitutional amendment, though, eliminating tax abatements, which we just talked about, and consolidating local governments, are some of those things too extreme for the legislature to even consider?

We know they're starting to talk about it, actually.

So we have several bills that are out there.

And I think that this is sort of reform.

The next phase of reform is to look under the hood and look at the structure of government.

I think maybe several times over the years I've talked about that.

It's the structure.

Sometimes that's as much of a problem.

What's driving the property taxes is that Ohio and frankly, some Midwestern states, and you look at southern states and western states, very different structure of government, fewer layers, especially at the local level.

So this is one of the things we have several thousand taxing jurisdictions where we need to look at what we do there.

And if we want to get at, you can eliminate the property tax, which I think is a terrible idea, by the way, because you can't backfill $24 billion of projected losses and any of the taxes you'd raise to to backfill that would would be really devastating on the income tax level side, sales tax side.

Plus townships can't even do that right now.

You'd have to give them the authority to do it.

So there's a whole host of problems there.

But but the thing is, is that you'd still have well service and structure issues.

And so the legislature is looking at there's bills, there's like a blue ribbon commission bill.

I forget the number up on my head.

That would have all the counties looking at how do we organize ourselves and different layers of government.

There's an incentive, a bill that would create a $25 million for incentives for local governments to maybe merge, like when you're dealing with legacy costs of of infrastructure.

And one jurisdiction doesn't want to pick that up.

How do we how do we make that easier for them to do that?

This is like a lot of smaller villages sometimes that are in some cases.

So these are the kind of things that we think is that next level where we look at the structure so that we can start looking at what we're really spending on, to make sure that those dollars are going to the services that everybody really wants, rather than just going to all these different layers of government and sometimes being duplicative and had a policy matters.

Ohio has talked about your desire to see a circuit breaker, which would trigger a property tax cut once it income reaches a certain level, or property taxes reach a certain level of percentage of income.

That seems to be a nonstarter.

I mean, we've seen that several times proposed, and it really hasn't moved.

So, I mean, how can you advocate for something that doesn't seem like it has a chance?

Hey, look.

And a lot of it is related to the cost that the state would have to put into it.

Well, here's here's the thing.

A very straightforward property tax circuit breaker.

That would hit about 1 in 6 Ohio taxpayers money.

Very broad touch, really targeted people who need a break.

So people who are seeing their property taxes exceed 5% of their income, not just, oh, you happen to live in this particular school district, so you get a break even if you don't really need a break.

That alone, we could.

We can pay for that.

It's expensive.

It's 700, some million dollars.

But let's close this data center loophole.

You know, if we just restored the income tax bracket from the current flat tax of 2.75 up to 3.4% on incomes over $100,000, again, that seems really unlikely.

That's $1 billion, though.

And I think that what is unlikely in the state House, is is not seen as unlikely or unreasonable for the, the, the millions of Ohioans who are so desperate, to see some sort of better action, whether it is on data center regulation, questions around affordability, having their public school well funded and accessible, having to have safe and quality childcare, that these, ballot initiatives are an expression of that dissatisfaction.

And so the legislature's really going to have to Trump to come to terms with it, because where they're legislating is not where Ohio and Ohio residents want them to be.

And this is one more example of it.

We are running out of time.

But I want to ask you both real quick.

A final question here.

Greg, it's estimated that moving to that in that flat income tax cutting the income tax would cost Ohio $1 billion in lost revenue.

Was it wise for lawmakers to do an income tax cut when people have been saying they wanted property tax relief?

Well, we've been on the block.

I think we can argue about how long the timeline is and what the path is.

And we've made it clear for years that we thought revenue triggers.

There's a variety of things that we would have probably suggested and how it's going.

I think it can make some sense to do it that way.

I do think that one thing that is a little bit of a concern I have with some of the things like the circuit breaker, is that it is not for everybody getting the property tax relief, they mean it is targeted in that sense.

But the challenge is it could also diffuse some of that cost to some other folks.

And I think we need to actually use the leverage, like the power against the property tax amendment and abolishing it.

The one thing that I'll say is the folks who have done that have actually put sort of a sword of Damocles over the heads of the legislature.

It has made the General Assembly do some things that had they done this five or certainly they've done it a decade ago, we probably wouldn't have anything like the acute situation we have now.

It would have been like a, dull toothache rather than root canal territory.

So I actually give folks credit for giving the legislature the impetus to act.

There's more that we can do in that space.

I think we need to look at the structure, and that's one of the things that we really, really want to focus on.

If we don't take advantage of that, we aren't going to solve the problem.

And then you're just shifting, whether it's the locals raising it or it's the state spending the money.

But we're not getting at, are we delivering services in the most effective, efficient way?

And finally, and I want to ask you, the amendment to abolish property taxes, if it if it makes the ballot.

And right now that's in question.

Of course, there are a lot of voters who would vote for it because they're, of course, upset about property taxes, but specifically public schools, which more than 3/5 of property taxes go to public schools.

How do you push back on the frustration about how much schools are costing individual homeowners in their property taxes?

Well, you know, here's the thing with public schools, we know what it costs to to provide an adequate education to all of the students, regardless of zip code ability need in the state.

We know that because that cost is created through the fair school funding program based on cost.

So we know what it takes to be adequate.

Part of the reason so many places are getting pinched is because the state, because of the march to zero on income taxes, because we're letting go, is $17 billion in tax cuts for the wealthiest of Ohioans and biggest corporations on the planet, has largely pulled back their funding.

A smaller share of public schools than they have in the past.

So the locals are having to pick up the the ticket.

And the bottom line is that Ohioans are voting for their public schools.

They are voting for these services.

In the last election, overall levies, were successful.

People value these services.

The problem is, is that the state has abandoned its role in sharing those costs.

And it's had to do that because they want a flat tax, they want abatements, they want to shrink that state revenue dollars.

That bill will go somewhere Ohioans want for the services.

They want them to be funded adequately and fairly.

and that is it for this week.

My colleagues at the Statehouse News Bureau of Ohio Public Media.

Thanks for watching.

Please check out our website at State news.org or find us online by searching State of Ohio Show.

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And please join us again next time for the state of Ohio.

Just.

Support for the Statehouse News Bureau comes from the law offices of Porter, Wright, Morris and Arthur LLP.

Porter Wright is dedicated to bringing inspired legal outcomes to the Ohio business community.

More at Porter Wright.com.

Porter Wright.

inspired every day.

And from the Ohio education Association, representing 120,000 educators who are united in their mission to create the excellent public schools every child deserves.

More at OHEA.org