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The academic year is ending with pro-Palestine protests on university campuses across Ohio and the country.

A Republican state lawmaker and a university professor share their views this week in the state of Ohio.

Welcome to the state of Ohio.

I'm Karen Kasler.

This week, two perspectives on the demonstrations on college and university campuses.

Right now.

Ohio State University, Ohio University, Miami University, Case Western Reserve University, Denison University, and Oberlin College have all been sites for protesters supporting the Palestinian cause, occasionally with pro-Israel counter demonstrations.

At Kent State University on May 4th, demonstrators held a pro-Palestine rally in the same location where the Ohio National Guard fired into a crowd of students 54 years earlier, killing four of them and injuring nine.

Some public officials have spoken out often to stress that students have the right to peacefully protest, but cannot break the law or policy.

Including Republican Senator Jerry Cirino.

Among the bill's sponsor, to Senate Bill 83, which would ban most mandatory diversity training in public universities.

It would also require what's called intellectual diversity on topics spelled out in the legislation, including climate policies, electoral policies, foreign policy, diversity, equity and inclusion programs, immigration policy, marriage or abortion.

Well, it's very disappointing.

not because there are demonstrations, because demonstrations have been a part of campus life for a very, very long time.

which was disappointing, is when these demonstrations move away from expressions of free speech, which are very allowable and and ought to be, to, violation of campus policies, violation of, of state law in some cases or municipal laws.

and when it becomes threatening to other students, I mean that that is that is not the environment we're supposed to be having on campus.

Everybody should feel safe to pursue their educational interests.

And, and so many campuses today in Ohio and outside of Ohio, particularly, this is this is what has been happening.

And it is antithetical to what should be going on in higher education.

Some of those who were protesting in Ohio State recently said they were peacefully protesting, and law enforcement came in and disrupted an evening prayer that violated their First Amendment rights.

They say, do you see it that way?

And what if that were a group of Christian students praying or Jewish students praying?

Well, look, I think that President Carter did a very good job of of quashing the parts of the demonstrations that were not appropriate.

Okay.

violating campus policies.

I mean, why have policies if you're not going to enforce them?

And I think that's all the President Carter was doing.

and he's a very high proponent of free speech.

He has said so.

He has told me we have had personal conversations about this issue.

so I don't doubt for a second that he supports the First Amendment rights of every student to express themselves.

it's when they cross over that line in occupy or, take residence, via tents.

being set up on campus is, is being happening as it's happening in other states.

that's when you cross over the line and break policy.

And if you violate policy, there should be consequences.

There's a real debate over what these students and other demonstrators are saying and showing with flags and signs and whether that's really anti-Semitism.

They say it's not, and that there are Jewish students who are, alongside them as well, who have embraced some of these demonstrations, too.

Do you think some of these things are anti-Semitic?

And is that something that should be punished, or is it free speech?

Well, and again, someone who is, is, welcome to have anti-Semitic feelings of their own.

I mean, we can't control individuals feelings.

but when when those expressions, call for, for the elimination of Israel, for the elimination of Jewish students on campus, and any, any violation of rights that Jewish students and any other group would have.

that's when there's a problem.

And so there may be some people who have a, a very, objective view on the situation in the Middle East that are not anti-Semitic.

But so much of what we're seeing and hearing today around the country, is clearly anti-Semitic, when they're calling for the elimination of Israel, when they're calling, you know, from the river to the sea.

We all know what that means.

and, and when they're there, intimidating students on campus, Jewish students on campus, we cannot we cannot countenance that.

One of the things that some of those demonstrating have called for is divestment, the withdrawal of investment dollars from Israel or companies that have ties with Israel.

And the state passed a law in 2016 saying that there would not be divestment from Israel.

But then that was extended in 2022 to public universities through a bill that you actually put together.

Right.

There was existing law that we felt was pretty, pretty straightforward.

However, we weren't sure whether it was, specific enough to include institutions of higher learning in Ohio, which are state institutions, certainly.

And so in Senate Bill 135, which I passed, in the last General Assembly, it passed unanimously in the House and with all but one vote in the Senate.

So it was a very strong bipartisan.

And bill, that covered many issues and that we've discussed in the in.

Fact, the divestment part got very little attention when it.

Passed because it was it.

Well, we didn't have the same issue that we have today, which is bringing it up again.

But but we wanted to make sure that it was crystal clear in 135 that the, the, divestment issue applied to institution of higher education in President Carter was was good enough to point that out in his public statement, a couple of weeks ago.

and that is the law in Ohio and Ohio State is not free to divest of those relationships.

But why shouldn't universities be able to make that decision?

I mean, there's no evidence that a significant portion of the student body is opposed to Israel or supports the pro-Palestinian demonstration that's going on, but some portion of the student body does support the Palestinian cause.

Why shouldn't universities be able to make that decision, if indeed there is a significant portion of the student body that believes that divestment is the right way to go?

Well, private universities and colleges can do that.

They are free to do so.

Public institutions that receive taxpayer dollars, should follow and must follow Ohio law.

And so they again, there could be groups of students who feel differently about that part of Ohio law and probably many other aspects of Ohio law.

We can't leave it in their hands to revise code as they see fit.

So because they're public institutions, they are bound by revised code.

and there's really no interpretation of that.

It's pretty straightforward.

Why this about Israel, though?

Why specifically divestment from Israel?

Well, Israel is a very important ally of ours in the Middle East, and there's a lot of history to that.

Okay.

the United States, through the United Nations, was very instrumental in setting up the state of Israel postwar in the first place.

and they have been a very steadfast, ally of ours in an area where there's really no other country that we are allied with, where other countries, neighboring countries, have been so focused on eliminating them.

So they're not just a normal ally of ours.

They're an important ally that has been under intense threat from their neighbors for a very, very long time, actually, from their inception.

And so I think that's why we in the United States have, from a policy perspective, have gone out of our way to single out Israel as a very special ally of ours, because their circumstances are very special.

When it comes to the protests.

Senate Bill 83 is the bill that you sponsored in this General Assembly that's moved through the Senate.

It's still in a House.

Well, it hasn't come to the House floor yet.

And there's a question about whether it will or not.

but I want to ask you, is there anything in Senate Bill 83 that would address these kinds of protests that would prevent them?

Do you think that there needs to be legislation that would address what we've seen happen?

Well, I think Senate Bill 83, as you know, Karen, is is a bill that is is a proponent of more speech, not less speech, even though it's been accused of, restricting speech, it really does not.

so in that sense, it would promote the ability for peaceful, orderly demonstrations and expressions of, of opinion, by students and faculty.

so, and any, any subject can be talked about on college campuses and should be that's the whole purpose of educating our students on different views, on different subjects.

Right.

However, I do think when you ask about future legislation, I do think that we need to take a look at, you know, how we treat faculty who are violating policies, breaking the law in some cases, or who are instigating students to do either of those two things.

I think those faculty members, tenured or not, should be terminated for violating policy.

and, and I think that's something that I'm certainly going to be taking a look at, because I think we're seeing that along.

we're seeing, that kind of behavior, around the state on all of our campuses right now.

You've specifically talked about with me, the protesters and the professors and the faculty members who have been involved in this.

You have said that you think students who are protesting don't even know where Gaza is or the historical roots of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

And you said that you think they've been ginned up by Marxist focused and Marxist oriented faculty members.

Now, the president of the Ohio Conference of American University, American Association of University Professors, has said that you're lashing out at students and faculty because Senate Bill 85 is not there.

Senate Bill 83 is not passed.

What is your.

Response?

I'm not lashing out at anybody.

And the, the, AUP, doesn't historically like anything that I do.

So that's not a surprising comment to hear.

but look, we're trying to create a positive environment for higher education.

I'm a huge supporter of higher education in Ohio.

We need quality education.

That means we need quality professors that are not indoctrinating our students.

These professors, some of these professors and some some are at Ohio State, that are the Marxists professors I refer to.

they seem to, go after capitalism.

And capitalism is the root of all evil, right?

They're sitting there enjoying their tenured positions, enjoying, you know, owning a home in Columbus or somewhere nearby, enjoying all the fruits of capitalism.

Yet at the same time, they're teaching their students to to defy capitalism and the capitalistic approach in this country.

I just find that rather rather rich.

Ohio State's response to the protests has gotten some criticism.

There's a concern about escalation of what might happen, especially as we just passed the 54th anniversary of the Kent State shootings in 1970.

Are you concerned about escalation in something as terrible as Kent State happening again?

Well, we certainly don't want ever something like that to happen.

But I will tell you that the biggest danger to escalation is to start giving in, little by little to the demands of these students.

That's that's where we've seen, very little payback for the universities that have given in, in and acquiesced to some of the requests.

they've been repaid with more protests.

And, and I don't think that's the way to go.

I think it's like disciplining children, in a way.

You give them a little bit, they're going to take a little bit more next time around.

I think that the Ohio State's position was the right position, and I think it's going to cause de-escalation, in the long run.

Statehouse Democrats have blasted Ohio State's response, calling it unnecessary force and noting that Representative Munira Abdullahi, an OSU graduate who spoke at the April 25th rally, was injured.

I also spoke with Doctor Pranav Johnny, who's been critical of Senate Bill 83, as both an associate professor of English at Ohio State as well as the president of the American Association of University of Professors at OSU.

He's also been a faculty advisor for students for Justice in Palestine for 30 years, 20 of them at Ohio State, and has attended and spoken at protests.

Well, first of all, I was immensely proud of how brave these students have been.

to my mind, they express what we call the shared values at Ohio State.

they are speaking up against the deaths.

Let's say of over 40,000 people now.

I call it a genocide.

Someone else may say this is not a genocide.

I don't think we need to quibble on that question.

For this purpose, I would say if we look at that, if we look at what's happening, the the current situation in Rafah, where it looks like an invasion is imminent and people are trapped, and we look at that situation and then we see that there are students during finals getting no gain from it, except the knowledge that they're speaking out when this kind of thing is happening in history and they're doing it in utterly peaceful ways.

They're following the words of leaders like Martin Luther King Jr, who talks about nonviolent direct action.

They're putting that into practice at that time to see a university clamp down on such students, dehumanize them, criminalize them, jail them, treat them like they're someone we should be afraid of, that they're outside agitators and all of that.

It's extremely painful.

And it also makes me extremely angry.

And this is not this is not how we should be treating students at Ohio State or anywhere else in the country.

You have people who are looking at these demonstrations saying something totally different.

They think that, some students are feeling, threatened that, this is not a safe environment for some students, that some of these things and expressions have been anti-Semitic.

What do you say to that?

I think that to call these demonstrations anti-Semitic is is wrong.

I think if there were anti-Semitism in slogans, in behavior and all of that, that would also be wrong.

But what I'm seeing is groups like Jews for Justice Against Palestine at Ohio State, standing with this actually quite diverse group of pro-Palestinian protesters and not leaving the group, but actually speaking and being part of it and, standing their ground.

I'm seeing people who have dedicated themselves to fighting racism, to fighting anti-Jewish hatred, to fighting these kinds of oppressions, right?

Dei is our shorthand, but dei doesn't even get to it.

I'm talking about fighting for social justice, fighting for racial justice.

Those of us who have dedicated our lives to that, who have Jewish students in our classrooms, who tolerate all different perspectives in our classrooms.

in terms of discussion, in terms of research topics, in terms of the papers, people, right, who support our students, regardless of their background, we would not tolerate, you know, protest that were simply about hate or about demonizing any particular group of people.

So what's happening is a conflation of criticism of the state of Israel with anti-Semitism.

And I'm arguing many people are arguing, Jewish Voice for Peace in central Ohio is arguing that this is a weaponization of anti-Semitism.

We should be able to criticize the policies of a nation state.

Regardless of some of those kinds of questions, we should be able to look at what a nation state is doing and to say, you know, this isn't right, and that's really what these students are doing.

And extending in that criticism, some student groups have been calling for divestment, from Israel.

That's against state law.

So that's not a demand that can be met.

Right?

Right.

There's many different layers here, which I think we need discussion on.

The first layer is, is this a just state law?

Boycotting is part of the diversity of thought that people behind SB 83, etc., say that they're for boycotting, Russian robots at Ohio State.

You know, it's something that happened.

We divested from Russian robot.

There's little food robots that go around campus.

we divested from Russian robots after the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

Right.

When there's a political will, divestment happens.

We divested from South Africa.

And so this question of divestment in and of itself, first of all, I think the Ohio law itself is unjust because it restricts the freedom of speech of people and the diversity of thought of people who have a different point of view.

But second of all, Ohio State is wrong when it says that since such a law exists, we can't number one, listen to protesters demands, which include opening the books, not simply divestment.

We can't have a referendum or a student referendum on divestment in, on March 1st.

I believe they hold a referendum in which an active vote was going on.

They pulled it from the undergraduate student government ballot, citing, well, there's a law and so we can't either.

So what's happening is the fact of the law is being used to shut down any genuine debate about the question of divestment with regard to Israel.

A student referendum that was pulled is a non-binding referendum.

It doesn't automatically mean Ohio State divest.

Why can't students have a vote on it?

That's repression of students voices talking about this protest as if, well, two sides of their mouth.

On the one hand, they say content doesn't matter.

This is about and take anti-camping policies, you know, for which apparently they need to bring out snipers, right?

This is about anti-camping anti noise.

Sometimes they say content doesn't matter.

It's about policies being broken.

At other times they talk about the content does matter.

We can't do divestment anyway.

So first of all the question is which is it.

But second of all, why can't a university allow students to protest around something, even if it doesn't follow state law?

We should be able to look at the matter intellectually, as opposed to shut down speech ahead of, you know, ahead of any and the actual actual study of what's what the questions are around divestment.

What Senator Serino said when it comes to these protests, he's looking at the possibility of maybe more legislation.

And specifically, he believes that faculty members who are violating policies are breaking the law, who are instigating students to do either of those things that they, tenured or not, should be terminated, and that he is certainly going to be taking a look at that.

Right.

As a faculty member, what do you think of that?

Well, Senator Serino has already come after me in op eds with personal insults, saying that I'm an English professor but can't read.

It's a racist insult.

And he does that all the time.

We know that he's been.

And his whole the whole, political affiliations that he has, they've been about attacking professors all the time.

there's that Nixon statement about professors really are the enemy.

And this is the kind of attitude we have.

What they don't know, they refuse to recognize around SB 83 or around this issue is that professors are not like politicians.

We don't stand there, give stump speeches that don't connect with people, and simply use our power to push through whatever agenda we have.

We believe in critical thinking.

We believe in opening up the space for dialog.

We couldn't with this youth today.

If any one thing is you can get by just by lecturing at them and that'll be that.

Forget about it.

You have to engage them.

You have to connect with their thoughts, with their experiences.

They want to disagree with us.

We love it when they do.

We actually say, bring the disagreements.

Bring your critical thinking.

You're going to be graded on your ability to think critically, etc.

not just by I don't want them to vomit whatever I've taught them and said, I ask them to test me, challenge me, and think on their own two feet.

The same goes with the activists.

The same goes with the activists.

Serino and other people want to paint professors as the puppeteers, you know, who are behind everything and doing everything.

The reality is we follow the lead of the students, we support the students.

The work we're doing right now.

I'm going to be blunt about this.

The work we're doing right now is not strategizing on the next action and telling students what to do.

The work we're doing right now is you've got a criminal here, you've got a hearing, right?

Do you have a lawyer?

Do you have support?

All over the country, students are leading professors are as individuals, as is our right supporting those positions if we like.

But as professors, we're they're trying to help them as much as we can.

We just passed the 54th anniversary of the Kent State shootings, and there's obviously concern that things could escalate.

Senator Serino says one of the concerns he has about escalation is if you give in to demands of students that could lead to escalation, what are your thoughts when you think about escalation and God forbid, the situation in the terrible situation from Kent State or any others coming back?

Yeah.

The memory of the Kent State massacre will never leave us.

that could have been Ohio State, because a few weeks before there was a massive demonstration on the oval and a tank was rolling down Lane Avenue.

And out of those demonstrations, though, we got things like black studies departments, women's, gender and sexuality studies departments came as demands of those protesters.

Those protesters did not bring the violence.

The National Guard brought the violence, and that was ordered by university administrators.

So I think that we should be worried about escalation and we should be worried about safety.

The question is who is it coming from?

Serino said there are enough Republican votes in the House to pass Senate Bill 83, which was narrowly voted out of committee in December.

And he has said if it doesn't pass by the end of this year, he'll bring it back next session without concessions he made, such as dropping the ban on faculty strikes.

Giannis said he'll believe the votes are there to pass Senate Bill 83 when he sees it.

And if it doesn't and is brought back, he says hundreds of opponents will once again come together to fight it.

And that is it for this week for my colleagues at the Statehouse News Bureau of Ohio Public Radio and Television.

Thanks for watching.

Please check out our website at State news.org or find us online by searching the State of Ohio show, and you can hear more from the Bureau on our podcast, The Ohio State House scoop.

Look for it every Monday morning wherever you get your podcasts, and please join us again next time for the State of Ohio.

Support for the Statehouse News Bureau comes from a medical mutual dedicated to the health and well-being of Ohioans, offering health insurance plans as well as dental, vision and wellness programs to help people achieve their goals and remain healthy.

More at Med mutual.com.

The law offices of Porter, Wright, Morris and Arthur LLP, Porter Wright is dedicated to bringing inspired legal outcomes to the Ohio business community.

More at Porter.

Right.

Com Porter Wright inspired Every day and Ohio Education Association, representing 120,000 educators who are united in their mission to create the excellent public schools.

Every child deserves more at OHEA.org.