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Maude Porter Wright dot com and from the Ohio Education Association representing 124,000 members who work to inspire their students to think creatively and experience the joy of learning online at OHEA.org The Ohio Department of Education is either dead by state law, as Republicans say, or lives on through a court order, according to Democrats.

We'll hear about the fight to make changes to the government infrastructure surrounding education this week in the state of Ohio.

Welcome to the state of ohio.

I'm karen Kasler.

A battle over the plan two overhaul k through 12.

Education in ohio rages on, with republicans saying it must take effect and democrats pushing back with a court order.

Seven progressively aligned state school board members sued Republicans over a provision in the budget that passed in July.

They want a temporary restraining order last month that they said stop the transition from the Department of Education to the Department of Education and Workforce, which will be headed by an appointee who'd be a part of Governor Mike DeWine's cabinet and would assume the authority over academic standards that has rested with the state Board of Education for 70 years.

But in an unusual Monday evening news conference, DeWine said part of that transition had to take place because the state budget eliminated the Department of Education at midnight on Tuesday, when that provision of the budget took effect.

It goes away because.

Of the law that was passed by the General Assembly and that old department dies at midnight.

So there is certainly.

A potential.

For for chaos.

DeWine said the court order stops him from naming a director of the new Department of Education and Workforce and transferring the state school board's power over academic policy to it.

And he said he will not violate that order.

But the new Department of Education and Workforce, which Republicans say was created by the same budget provision that killed the Department of Education, will send state funds to districts and process voucher applications, among other daily business functions.

But State Board of Education member Teresa Feder, a Democratic former state lawmaker who's involved in the lawsuit, said the court order blocked the transition entirely.

It seems to me like they're putting themselves above the law.

They've created this chaos because of their government overreach and not dealing with the real issues and the claims in the lawsuit.

Of the 19 state school board members.

11 are elected.

They are listed as nonpartisan on the ballot.

But the ones involved in the lawsuit are Democratic former officeholders or activists or have ties to Democratic or progressive groups.

Lieutenant Governor Jon Husted was at DeWine's Monday press conference and has been the point person on education and workforce for the DeWine administration.

The current system doesn't work very well.

We've been 741 days where this state school board has not hired a permanent superintendent.

The Department of Education was leaderless.

The school board is dysfunctional.

It's not accountable.

And with this new system, it will be everybody.

Everybody knows who the governor is.

If you like what he does, you can hold him accountable.

And but it's a way of coordinating things.

Look, the governor is in charge of all the pre-K stuff, all of the post K stuff, K through 12 stuff, but not in charge of K through 12 education and making sure that's accountable.

We in education to it needs to be aligned.

We know that that children start developing, you know, even before they're born, their brains are developing.

We need to help them become early learners, early readers.

Then we've got to get them to kindergarten, kindergarten ready.

We got to get them to third grade and then and then job ready when they leave high school on to college.

And that needs to be coordinated and accountable.

And right now it's not.

And it will be if you get this done.

Now, governors have wanted this kind of power with the state school board or the Department of Education for decades.

So this is not a new idea.

For instance, when Governor Ted Strickland wanted a cabinet level director of education.

You had said that you were concerned that he would use that to block efforts on school choice because you were House speaker around that time.

So why should this governor be able to appoint a cabinet level director of a new education agency?

I also, when I was speaker, gave Ted Strickland the ability to appoint the chancellor of higher education.

So we started moving in that direction when I was speaker.

But now there's no definite definitionally.

I mean, look, we have a system, right?

Like, there's no on off point.

It's just we need to build this thoroughly and make it more accountable In the state school board over that course of 15 years that you're talking about has not done a very good job.

And it's dysfunctional.

And times change and we need to change with it.

What's the guarantee that education Ohio would not be politicized because obviously politicians run for governor.

What's to stop a future governor from who feels differently from the current administration, from taking things off into a different course and then kids have to go along with it.

What do you think the state school board's political?

They have proven to be the most political, unorganized body that we have in government right now.

They can't even hire somebody to run the Department of Education.

And so a governor is at least accountable.

I mean, everyone in the state can go to the polls and say, I don't like that governor.

I don't like what he did with education.

Let's vote him out.

I ask, do you even know who your state school board member is?

I bet most people don't.

They wouldn't be able to hold them accountable.

Of the 19 board members, 11 of those are elected, and most of those have been Republicans for all this period that we're talking about here.

So it's really Republicans have been in charge of the state school board.

I'm not it's not a partizan comment.

It everybody is not able to get this done.

The members that that system isn't working.

But I don't need to focus on them.

Let's talk let's focus on the positive things that we can do.

Think about the opportunity that we have.

If we can get our pre-K, our K through 12 hour higher ed, our our adult learning all aligned and accountable so that there it's just a better system.

Think about this.

A governor can't even tell a governor of the state of Ohio, can't even tell the Department of Education to update its website with current information.

They don't have to listen to it.

He can't tell them to do anything yet.

A governor is held accountable for delivery of education services.

The system.

The system just doesn't function right.

And we need to change it.

If this change goes forward, does this take voters out of the process because 11 of those board members are elected and the 1953 constitutional amendment said that these should be elected board members here, does this take voters out of the process and move.

To vote for the governor?

I mean, that's who that's who we're talking about here.

Everybody knows who the governor is.

And the voters have more say because they get to pick one person that's going to be in charge of this.

Not 19 people who no one even knows.

Like, I go you go do one of those interviews where you talk to people on the street and ask them who their state school board member is, and nobody can tell you.

So it's much more accountable this way.

I want to ask you about the Democratic members who filed this lawsuit.

One of them has pointed out parallels between what's happening now in court.

When you were House speaker, the Republican created budget included something that you and other Republican leaders had pushed for the elimination of the Independent Legislative Office of Education Oversight, which it studied education in Ohio for 15 years, and it raised concerns about charter schools.

And Eckert Of course, the court closed in 2018 and audit last year showed the state paid $170 million for students who weren't enrolled.

The state is still trying to recover that money.

The question is, is this effort to get rid of independent oversight of education kind of like what happened with E Court?

Should we be worried about another disaster like E Court, if you know?

Absolutely not, because no one was in charge of the system, then That's my very point.

Actually, e court would have never happened if you would have had a governor who would have been accountable for it.

But now, because you had a Department of Education and you had a state school board that couldn't agree, you didn't have any accountability.

No, that's the problem.

No one is accountable for the outcomes in the K-through-12 system in Ohio.

And if we would have had more stringent oversight, things like that are less likely to happen.

I never can promise something won't happen, but it's a lot less likely to happen because you would have had a governor who would have been held accountable.

And if that would have happened and somebody would have directly been in charge of it rather than a system, you would had a different outcome.

So under this proposal that you and the governor and other Republican leaders want to see happen, that the court order is stopping the full implementation of at least for now.

You think there's going to be more accountability, more transparency?

Absolutely.

And it will be more functional and more accountable.

It will, absolutely.

This is the least accountable when everybody's in charge.

Nobody's in charge right now.

You have 19 school board members that nobody knows who haven't hired a superintendent in 741 days.

Think about that.

And we think that systems accountable, that system is a failure.

And right now, we've passed a law.

The department of Education no longer exists.

We have a new agency, the Department of Education and Workforce.

And this judge is holding up that moving forward.

And we need to dispense of this frivolous lawsuit and focus on getting kids educated.

Do you know one thing we haven't had a discussion about in this conversation, kids?

We keep talking about what the adults want to do.

Let's get focused on the kids and what helps them become successful.

Democrats have seen this as an attack on the Democratic board members because this all started right around the time that Democrats were elected to the state school board.

Democrats would never have had the majority of the school board.

It's not about look, there are plenty Republicans aren't doing a very good job either.

It's not about partizan politics.

It's about kids.

It's about what's partizan about?

Hey, I want children to be ready to to read by the third grade.

And we want them to be successful at that.

And if they're not successful, then we want to make sure that we're deploying resources so that we have.

We get every kid who can't read by the third grade individual attention and make sure that they're all proficient in math by the sixth grade.

And if they're chronically absent, we're going to deploy people.

That's not Partizan.

That's about kids.

What's this lawsuit?

And this is the nonsense that's going on right now is the partizan stuff.

It's actually not even partizan.

It's about power.

It's about a handful of people wanting to not allow someone to lead.

That's what this is about.

I want to ask you about the science of reading idea, which is in the budget.

Is there one curriculum, one company that's behind the science of reading, or is the science of reading something that many companies are?

It's not a company.

It's a it's a way of teaching reading.

But is there a company that's the science behind the curriculum that will be used?

I have no earthly idea if companies produce this or who produces the the curriculum.

Because it's a science.

It's like it's like who produces math where anybody can produce math?

This is a science of reading.

And what we need to do is help the teachers learn where they haven't learned.

Because, look, we have some we have some colleges and universities that teach the science of reading.

Others don't as as teacher preparation for how you teach early learners.

This is a philosophy of how you go about doing that.

It's not about a company and what we need to do is to implement it because the data is in.

Look, this is something that I remember when I read about conservatives and liberals in the New York Times, both agreeing that the science of reading was the way to go.

I thought, wow, finally, something that that people on both sides of the political perspective can have consensus on.

You're seen in other states where they've used it.

They've seen dramatic increases, improvements in reading outcomes.

Governors have been a strong advocate of this.

And it really I mean, we got to get this done.

This is what I mean.

All this stuff holds up.

Helping kids get Prepared for life.

Michel Newman was elected to the State Board of Education in 2020, representing the eighth District in eastern Ohio.

She is one of the seven members who filed the lawsuit.

For me from day one.

The reason that I joined this lawsuit is the same reason that I do.

A lot of what I do is for my daughter.

I am first and foremost a mother.

And I happened to be on the state Board of Education for the state of Ohio.

I never would have run for the state board if I didn't have a kiddo that was in public schools.

I got engaged because I looked at the way that the state board was set up.

And at the time, back when I ran in 2020, there were very few people on the state Board of Education that actually had kids active in public education.

And I thought that was a big gap, and I thought that was a voice that needed to be at the table.

And so I decided to run.

I decided to throw my hat in the ring to do it, to make sure that parent voice was there.

And so that is the same reason why I decided to join this lawsuit with the changes that were suggested through the legislature starting earlier this year.

Alarm bells went up and said these changes would only remove parent voice and not allow them to be at the table when it comes to discussions on education policy.

And I just dug deep and I said, you know what?

This is not okay.

This is this is an attack on democracy.

This is a removal of my voice, of the voice of parents.

And I couldn't stand for it.

And so that is why I am here on this lawsuit.

I don't know if you can answer this question, but why did you choose to file that lawsuit on September 20th when this was in the budget that passed in July?

Why did you wait?

I think it's a funny question and a funny discussion that's going on, because carrying the inherent the inherent idea behind that rate is almost like everybody has a bank of attorneys waiting to challenge the state at any given moment.

I'm just a regular person that's right.

I don't know where to start, right?

I mean, you don't wake up in the morning and say, I'm going to challenge in a legal action of the state and you Google it and they tell you how to do that.

Right.

And so it wasn't I actually think we should be given a high five for getting it pulled up by the fact that we did, to be fully honest with you, because we did this as a citizens, we did this as people who were concerned about what was happening to education.

There's a pathway for that.

You know, and I really think the inherent problem is when finding recourse against an illegal state action is something that's only afforded to people who have connections or who have massive resources.

That is a problem within itself.

And the fact that that's one of the arguments here, that's the problem is exceptionally bothersome to me.

But the fact is we were just regular people trying to say, we're not okay with this.

What do we do?

And that took some time and some planning.

And so that's why it took to September 20th to make that happen now.

And with that being said, it's not like we were quiet before.

Several of us testified in front of the Senate House Committee.

We talked with our senators and our representatives prior.

We wrote letters.

I wrote op eds.

We did press releases.

We weren't sitting idly by watching this happen.

We have been working our butts off for quite some time to try to figure out something to do to slow down this freight train.

Governor Mike DeWine and Lieutenant Governor John Houston, among others, have said that the state school board is political, it's dysfunctional, it's unaccountable.

This site is an example.

It's gone more than 740 days without hiring a permanent superintendent.

So why hasn't a permanent superintendent been hired?

But we actually did hire a superintendent.

We did hire someone who at the time and I mean, there was there was huge debate about that with our board about who we were going to hire and who we were going to offer the contract to.

And I'm very big on traveling to my district, and I've always been very open about this.

When I spoke, I feel that we picked the right person at the right time.

There was an issue with timing and how that worked and how that person played into the process.

But we did select a superintend audit that ended up not working out, as we all know.

Back in, right?

Yes, I am.

I am.

And so within that timeframe, though, how it all worked out is then you have the legislation that starts to pop up and bubble saying, hey, we're looking at legislation to potentially do away with the board.

We're looking at legislation to move education.

And we really as a board, we're looking, is it a wise use of taxpayer resources to plow forward on the selection of a superintendent if there could potentially be a massive change?

And so our meetings are fully public and transparent, and so people can go back and look on the Ohio channel.

They can watch our meetings.

All the discussions are there as to why we decided to wait.

And in the meantime, we have had a fabulous intern state Superintendent Dr. Stephanie Sit.

INS was an absolute gift to the Department of Education.

Work never stopped.

One of the things I have seen when I have been at the state board, the staff at the Ohio Department of Education are some of the most intelligent committee, hard working professionals that I know in the state.

Nothing ever came to a standstill.

There were extensive discussions.

There were strategic initiatives that were moving forward.

We're getting constant reports.

Future forward Ohio launched and went forward.

The rhetoric is saying that work stopped and that there was no leader.

That is an absolute fallacy.

We continue to work exceptionally hard and we continue to move forward.

And so while some people may look at that as dysfunctional, it's messy.

Democracy is messy, education is messy.

It goes down literally to the individual child's level.

That takes time.

And so, yes, we all bring our different ideas.

It takes a little bit of time, but it's not dysfunctional in a way that is problematic.

It's dysfunctional as in the way that is what democracy is supposed to look like, to make it work when all the stakeholders are at the table.

Since you've been on the board, there have been discussions over an anti-racism resolution on disparities between students of color and white students.

That was passed and then it was rescinded.

Two board members resigned.

There was a resolution that went against a federal policy requiring K-12 schools to follow LGBT Q anti-discrimination policies in order to receive federal funding.

Is the state school board too political?

You know, Karen, it's a it's a great question.

And so here's how I would reframe that and change it.

The state school board is a place where all opinions can come to the table, right?

Every single person at that table is going to bring in their own ideas.

They're going to bring in their own frameworks.

But with a nonpartisan seat, we have the freedom to come in and do the work in a way that frees us from potential ties of maybe party affiliation.

And in fact, since I have been on the board in January of 2021, up until now, we have had over 719 written testimonies provided to the state board, and that's only that's only two written and not everybody gives the written testimony.

We have a lot of individuals that show up and give live testimony without written.

We give 5 minutes minimum to each person who comes and gives testimony.

That's 60 hours of public testimony from people from all across the state of Ohio with a wide variety of beliefs.

That's how you been in counting, including questions and answers.

Right?

Countless hours of being able to hear from people.

That's not politicalization.

That is democracy in action.

And so that is how I would defend that.

You said in your lawsuit that a constitutional amendment approved in 1953 by 56% of voters created a state board that voters could hold accountable rather than leaving it all to the governor.

But if people don't know who you are, which is another claim that Republicans have, nobody knows who their state.

Board of Education member is.

Whereas people know who the governor is, they vote for him or her.

They know that that person's policies, that person often campaigns on improving.

Education in Ohio.

So how is you being there.

More.

Accountability than having it in the hands of the governor who more people know the know?

Perhaps you?

Yeah, it's that's always a funny question to me as well to you, because you go to talk to people and you say, here's your representative in the House.

Who's your representative in the Senate?

And I know those individuals think everybody knows who they are.

They don't always rate.

And so, I mean, that's just a defunct claim on that.

The fact is we're out there doing the work.

I mean, for me, again, I went into this as a mom to be an advocate for families, for my community, for teachers, for schools.

I'm out there.

I'm talking to my districts.

And so it's like we are out there as a voice, or at least I know I am.

And my role to be able to be that mouthpiece for my community.

And the fact is, those who do reach out, they find me, they Google me.

You know, and so it's it's one of those things.

It's just I think it's a it's a silly deflection off of what the real issues are that are here.

It doesn't matter if someone can't kick me off the street or anything like that.

It's the fact that I'm doing the work.

Those who support the transition.

To Department of Education and.

Workforce with the director who be appointed by the governor and the powers over academic standards say the status quo has not worked.

Lieutenant Governor John Houston said, quote, This is the least accountable.

When everybody's in charge, nobody's in charge.

So how would keeping the status quo, how and especially when there are people who are pointing to Ohio's educational performance has been declining in recent years as more evidence that the status quo.

Represented by the state.

Board of Education of the Department of Education is not working.

Mm hmm.

Well, Karen, I'm big on metaphors.

And so here's kind of the way that I look at this.

First off, I mean, we're still coming off of COVID, right?

When you put changes in effect, you look at which kiddos and families have been through in the past few years, we've got a lot to catch up from, and that's catching up even from what we were happening.

What was happening in schools before.

We've got some exciting work that is moving forward on that and I'd like to see that work continue.

The fact being the State Board of Education cannot not make legislation.

We cannot decide where funds go.

We have no powers of being able to push funds one way or another.

And so for us, it's I look forward to what happens if we maintain the status quo or for those who support the change over.

Here's kind of my question.

That's like building a house and not following building code or zoning.

Right.

The question isn't, are you going to make something pretty?

Because if they do this and they're able to do it, it may look nice.

The fact is, you didn't follow code and this is like, I'm not an attorney.

This is why I have an amazing legal team that's working with myself and the other plaintiffs on this.

But it's like just because you want to do something doesn't mean you can go do it and not follow the letter of the law.

And voters in 1953 said, we want this out of the governor's office.

If you want to put it back in the governor's office, then ask voters if they want to do it in.

The court order.

One by the board members was extended this week to October 20th, and this week we welcome an addition to our staff.

Sarah Donaldson is joining us as our new reporter and producer covering state government policies, politics and elections.

You'll see and hear more of her soon on Ohio's public radio stations and hear on this show.

And that is it for this week for my colleagues at the Statehouse News Bureau of Ohio Public Radio and Television.

Thanks for watching.

Please check out our website at state News dot org or find us online by searching state of Ohio show.

And please join us again next time for the state of Ohio.

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Now with eight locations across the country, Porter Wright is a legal partner with a new perspective to the business community.

More at Porter Wright dot com and from the Ohio Education Association representing 124,000 members who work to inspire their students to think creatively and experience the joy of learning online at OHEA.org