TO GET IN THERE, RIDE ALONG, JUST UNDERSTAND.

HAWLEY.

>> CATHY: POET, WRITER, AND CRITIC DAVID MURA HAS WRITTEN A NEW BOOK.

"THE STORIES WHITENESS TELLS ITSELF" LOOKS DEEPLY AT THE WAYS RACE HAS SHAPED THE COUNTRY AND MODERN EXPERIENCES AND PERCEPTIONS.

THE BOOK BEGINS AND ENDS WITH THE KILLINGS OF THREE MINNESOTANS BY POLICE OFFICERS, ALL BLACK MEN: PHILANDO CASTILE, GEORGE FLOYD, AND DAUNTE WRIGHT.

IT EXPLORES HOW STORIES ARE FRAMED -— REAL AND FICTIONAL, PAST AND PRESENT -— AGAINST THE BACKDROP OF WHITE SUPREMACY.

HERE TO TELL US MORE ABOUT HIS BOOK, DAVID MURA.

IT'S GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

IT'S BEEN A WHILE.

>> GOOD TO BE HERE.

>> Cathy: YOU ARE JAPANESE AMERICAN, YOU'RE WRITING ABOUT BLACKNESS AND WHITENESS.

WHAT SPURRED YOU TO WRITE THE BOOK?

>> PART F IT IS THE KILLING OF PHILANDO CASTILE, WHICH TOOK PLACE PROBABLY NOT MORE THAN THREE MILES, MAYBE TWO MILES FROM MY HOUSE.

I'VE DRIVEN DOWN THAT ROAD.

I KNOW PEOPLE WHO KNEW PHILANDO CASTILE.

AND THEN, AS I BEGAN EXAMINING THE ROOTS OF WHAT HAPPENED ON LARPENTEUR AVENUE, I REALIZED THAT THE ROOTS GO ALL THE WAY BACK TO SLAVERY, THEY GO ALL THE WAY BACK TO OUR HISTORY OF RACE.

AND I REALIZED THAT THE WAY WE TELL THE HISTORY OF OUR COUNTRY S NOT ACCURATE.

YOU KNOW, I SAY IN THE BOOK, OUR COUNTRY BEGAN WITH TWO GOALS.

THE FIRST WAS FREEDOM, EQUALITY AND DEMOCRACY.

BUT THE OTHER GOAL, WHICH WE DON'T ANT TO TALK ABOUT WAS TO ESTABLISH WHITE SUPREMACY AND THE ABILITY OF WHITE PEOPLE TO OPPRESS PEOPLE OF COLOR.

AND AS WE SEE IN THE CONTROVERSY OVER DESANTOS, SOME PEOPLE ARE FINE WITH TELLING THE STORY ONLY THROUGH THE LENS OF THE FIRST GOAL.

AND NOT THROUGH THE LENS OF THE SECOND GOAL.

AND THEY DEEM THAT HISTORY OF WHITE SUPREMACY AND RACISM AS UN-AMERICAN, AS UNPATRIOTIC, AS A BLEMISH, WHICH IT IS IN ACTUALITY ON WHAT AMERICA IS BUT THAT'S HE TRUTH.

AND WE CAN'T BEGIN TO UNDERSTAND WHO WE ARE AND HOW WE'VE GOTTEN TO THIS PLACE.

>> Eric: WHAT DO YOU WANT WHITE READ TOWERS GET OUT OF THIS?

>> -- WHITE READERS TO GET OUT OF THIS?

>> I SAY THIS ALL THE TIME.

I DON'T WRITE TO SHAME OR GUILT WHITE PEOPLE.

I BELIEVE YOU CHANGE PEOPLE THROUGH LOVE AND THROUGH KNOWLEDGE.

SO WHAT I'M TRYING TO FFER THEM IS KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THE WAYS THAT RACISM WORKS IN OUR HISTORY AND IN OUR SOCIETY.

AND WE SIMPLIFY IT OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

YOU KNOW, IN THIS CONTROVERSY THAT DESANTOS HAS IN FLORIDA, WHERE HE WANTS TO BAN THE A.P.

STUDIES COURSE, JUST THINK ABOUT IT.

BACK IN SLAVERY, THE SLAVE OWNERS SAID O THE AFRICANS, YOU CAN'T TEACH EACH OTHER TO READ.

YOU CAN'T TEACH EACH OTHER YOUR CULTURE OR LANGUAGE.

SO, WHAT DESANTOS IS SAYING IS AN OLD SOUTHERN TRADITION.

THESE AFRICAN AMERICAN WRITERS AND SCHOLARS, YOU'RE NOT QUALIFIED TO TEACH ABOUT YOUR CULTURE AND HISTORY.

AND HE SAYS IT'S NOT EDUCATIONAL, BUT WHO IS HE TO MAKE THIS JUDGMENT?

HE DOESN'T HAVE A PhD IN AFRICAN AMERICAN STUDIES.

AND, SO, -- AND HE'S CERTAINLY NOT BLACK.

AND HE'S RELYING ON THIS TROPE OF RACISM WHERE THE PROBLEM IS NOT THAT WHITE AMERICA HAS ABUSED BLACK AMERICANS THROUGHOUT OUR HISTORY, BUT THAT BLACK AMERICANS REMEMBER THIS HISTORY AND KEEP TELLING WHITE PEOPLE ABOUT IT.

WHICH SOMEHOW VICTIMIZES WHITE PEOPLE.

>> Cathy: AND WHAT ARE THE NARRATIVES THAT WHITES TELL THEMSELVES, THEN, THROUGH THAT HISTORICAL LENS?

>> WELL, THEY TELL STORIES OF UNBLEMISHED WHITE HEROES.

IF I TOLD YOU, THERE'S BRILLIANT WRITER DOWN THE BLOCK, HE'S A BRILLIANT THINKER, HE'S PUSHING IDEAS OF - EQUALITY, FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY, AND HIS NAME IS THOMAS JEFFERSON, YOU GO, GREAT.

AND THEN IF I TOLD YOU, AND THOMAS JEFFERSON OWNS 600 SLAVES, HE IMPREGNATED A 16-YEAR-OLD SLAVE.

AND HIS CHILDREN, THIS IS VERY INTERESTING, SALLY HEMINGS HE IS WAS ONE-QUARTER BLACK, SO THEIR CHILDREN WERE 1/8 BLACK, AND PEOPLE SAID, TOM, SURE LOOKS LIKE YOU, THESE KIDS AND HE KEPT THEM IN SLAVERY.

NOW, WE WOULD THINK THIS PERSON IS A MORAL MONSTER, SOMEHOW SICK.

AND WE WANT TO SAY, OH, THAT'S IN THE PAST, RIGHT?

BUT IF YOU LOOK AT RACIAL MEDICAL DISPARITIES, BLACK PEOPLE WAIT LONGER IN EMERGENCY ROOMS FOR PAIN MEDICATION FOR THE SAME CONDITIONS AND ILLNESSES.

THEY RECEIVE LESS PAIN MEDICATION THAN WHITES FOR THE SAME CONDITIONS AND LLNESSES.

AND IN 2016, THERE WAS A STUDY WHICH SAID 122 WHITE MEDICAL STUDENTS, AND HALF OF HEM PROFESSED TO BELIEVE THAT BLACK PEOPLE FEEL LESS PAIN THAN WHITE PEOPLE.

>> Eric: IF ALL OF THIS WAS ACKNOWLEDGED, WHAT DIFFERENCE WOULD IT MAKE?

>> BLACK PEOPLE HAVE BEEN ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF OUR RACIAL HISTORY AT EVERY POINT IN OUR HISTORY.

AND WHITE PEOPLE, THE MAJORITY OF WHITE PEOPLE ARE WRONG.

AND, YET, WHITE PEOPLE HAVE NEVER TURNED TO BLACK PEOPLE AND SAID, YOU KNOW, WE GOT IT WRONG, EVERY SINGLE TIME IN OUR HISTORY AND YOU GOT IT RIGHT.

MAYBE WE'LL LISTEN TO YOU IN THE PRESENT.

AND WHEN THAT BEGINS TO HAPPEN, WE'LL KNOW THAT WE'RE REALLY ON THE ROAD TO CHANGING OUR RACE IN AMERICA.

>> Cathy: WHAT WOULD A REALLY GOOD AMERICAN HISTORY CLASS LOOK LIKE?

>> IT WOULD TELL THE STORY -- IT WOULD TELL THE STORY, AS I SAID, OF THIS PURSUIT OF EQUALITY, FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY, BUT IT WOULD ALSO TELL THE STORY OF HOW SLAVERY AND ITS AFTERMATH HAS AFFECTED US.

BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, WHEN THESE 222, HALF OF THOSE MEDICAL STUDENTS WHO BELIEVE BLACK PEOPLE FEEL LESS PAIN THAN WHITE PEOPLE, THAT'S AN IDEA THAT JEFFERSON WAS PUSHING IN THE 1700s.

SO THAT IDEA FROM THE 1700s IS STILL INFECTING THE MINDS OF WHITE AMERICANS TODAY.

SO YOU CAN'T SAY THE PAST IS WAY IN THE BACK.

IT'S ACTUALLY PRESENT.

UNLESS WE UNDERSTAND THAT, WE CAN'T BEGIN TO ROOT IT OUT.

>> Eric: WISH WE HAD MORE TIME.

>> Cathy: REALLY