>>> NEXT TO RACIAL EQUALITY AND CONVERSATION THAT MANY BLACK PARENTS ALL ACROSS HAVE WITH THEIR CHILDREN PREPARING THEM TO RECOGNIZE AND REDUCE THE RISKS OF VIOLENCE, INCLUDING AT THE HANDS OF DISCRIMINATORY POLICING.

PULITZER PRIZE-WINNING CARTOONIST DARRIN BELL HAS DRAWN A GRAPHIC MEMOIR ABOUT HOW "THE TALK" IMPACTED HIS LIFE.

HE IS JOINING MICHEL MARTIN TO SHARE HIS STORY.

>> THANKS.

DARRIN BELL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> PEOPLE MAY KNOW YOU FROM YOUR STRIP, KANDERVILLE, WHICH RUNS SYNDICATED ALL OVER THE COUNTRY.

WHAT MADE THIS THE TIME TO WRITE A GRAPHIC NOVEL?

>> WELL, THIS IS NOT ACTUALLY THE GRAPHIC NOVEL THAT I SOLD TO THE PUBLISHER OF I SOLD A DIFFERENT MEMOIR ABOUT MY TIME AS MY GRANDFATHER'S CARETAKER TOWARDS THE END OF HIS LIFE.

BUT AS I WAS WORKING ON THE FIRST CHAPTERS, GEORGE FLOYD WAS MURDERED.

AND THE SUMMER OF PROTESTS STARTED.

AND MY EDITOR, WE HAD A CONVERSATION AND WE DECIDED WE SHOULD PROBABLY PUT THAT BOOK ON THE BACK BURNER AND DO ANOTHER BOOK THAT SPOKE TO WHAT WAS >> SO I WOULD SAY "THE TALK" FEELS DIFFERENT TO ME THOUGH IN TONE.

I MEAN, CERTAINLY STYLISTICALLY, ARTISTICALLY IN ALIGNMENT WITH YOUR OTHER WORK.

IT DOESN'T GO FOR FUNNY.

IN THE WAKE OF NOT JUST GEORGE FLOYD, I WANT TO SAY TRAYVON MARTIN, I WANT TO SAY TIM EAR RICE, HOW MANY EXAMPLES OF BLACK BOYS AND MEN EXPERIENCING VIOLENCE EITHER THROUGH VIGILANTEISM OR POLICE VIOLENCE OR WHAT WAS YOUR CONCEPT OF THE -- OF EXPRESSING IDEAS OF "THE TALK" IN THIS WAY?

>> IT'S FRAMED WITH THE FIN ONLY NONOF POLICE VIOLENCE.

BUT "THE TALK" IS NOT JUST ABOUT THAT.

"THE TALK" IS ABOUT HOW RACISM AND DISCRIMINATION COMES AT YOU FROM DIFFERENT PLACES, FROM UNEXPECTED PLACES, AND IT COMES AT YOU DIFFERENTLY AT DIFFERENT POINTS IN YOUR LIFE.

WHEN YOU'RE A KID IT MIGHT BE A KID TELLING YOU HAVE BIG UGLY LIP OR WITH YOU'RE OLDER IT MIGHT BE A HOME APPRAISER VALUING YOUR $600,000 HOUSE FOR 250,000.

AND SO "THE TALK," THE BOOK TAKES US THROUGH ABOUT 40 YEARS OF HISTORY, 40 YEARS OF PERSONAL GROWTH.

THERE IS SOME LOVE STORIES IN IT.

THERE IS STORIES OF FRIENDSHIP.

IT'S A COMING-OF-AGE STORY.

IT'S ALSO AN EXAMINATION OF HOW YOU ARE CONTINUALLY BUFFETED BY THESE RUDE INTERRUPTIONS, THESE RUDE RACIST INTERRUPTIONS.

AND YOU HAVE TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO DEAL WITH IT.

YOU CAN EITHER LET IT BEAT YOU OR YOU COULD LET IT HELP YOU FIND YOUR VOICE, FIND WHO YOU ARE.

AND DESPITE WHAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE TELLING YOU ARE.

>> I'LL START WITH ONE OF THE FIRST EXPERIENCES IN BOOK THAT YOU TALK ABOUT IN THE BOOK IS A CONFRONTATION WHEN YOU ARE PLAYING WITH A TOY WATER GUN AND YOU ARE JUST A LITTLE GUY.

YOU KNOW, 6 YEARS OLD.

HE -- WOULD YOU TALK ABOUT THAT?

I ASSUME THAT REALLY HAPPENED?

>> DID.

IT DID.

IT HAPPENED WHEN I WAS 6.

I SAW SOME LITTLE KIDS IN PARK PLAYING WITH WATER GUNS.

REALISTIC LOOKING.

I THINK THEY WERE -- THEY LOOKED LIKE REVOLVERS.

I ASKED MY MOM TO GET ME A GUN AND SHE TOLD ME I COULDN'T HAVE ONE.

BUT THE NEXT DAY SHE SAW HOW CRUSHED I WAS BY THAT, SO SHE BOUGHT ME WATER GUN THAT WAS BRIGHT GREEN AND TRANSPARENT AND SHE GAVE ME THE TALK.

WHICH DIDN'T MAKE ANY SENSE TO ME.

SHE TOLD ME THE GUN WAS GOING TO KEEP ME ALIVE I THOUGHT THIS WAS PARANOIA.

AS SOON AS I COULD SHALL WHEN SHE WASN'T LOOKING I SNUCK OUT AND I WENT ALL OVER THE NEIGHBORHOOD SHOOTING EVERYTHING I COULD SEE.

STOP SIGNS.

BENCHES.

PRO TENDING THAT THERM STORMTROOPERS AND I WAS LUKE SKYWALKER ESCAPING THE DEATH STAR.

I BENT DOWN TO RELOAD IT AND I HEARD SOMEONE SAY DROP THE WEAPON.

AND I LOOKED UP AND IT WAS A POLICE OFFICER.

AND FOR A SPLIT SECOND I THOUGHT HE WAS PLAYING WITH ME.

BUT THE LOOK ON HIS FACE TOLD ME THIS WAS SERIOUS.

AND I JUST FROZE.

AND I GOT DOWN ON THE GROUND AND I CLOSED MY EYES AND WISHED HE WOULD GO AWAY.

EVENTUALLY, HE DID AFTER HE WAS DONE BARKING ORDERS AT ME.

AND I CARRIED SO MUCH SHAME FROM THAT INTERACTION FOR YEARS.

I DIDN'T TELL ANYBODY.

UNTIL I WAS MUCH -- UNTIL I WAS OLDER.

AND I FELT LIKE I HAD BROUGHT THAT ON MYSELF.

FIRST OF ALL, BECAUSE I IGNORED MY MOM.

I DIDN'T BELIEVE HER.

AND SECOND OF ALL, I THOUGHT I MUST HAVE BEEN ACTING LIKE A CRIMINAL.

I'M, YOU KNOW, I THOUGHT I PROVOKED THAT POLICE OFFICER.

AND IF ONLY I COULD ACT MORE RESPECTABLE AND PLAY BY ALL THE RESULTS, NOTHING BAD WILL HAPPEN TO ME.

AND I HELD ON TO THAT RESPECTABILITY POLITICS FOR ANOTHER DECADE OR SO UNTIL I -- UNTIL ANOTHER RUDE INTERRUPTION SHOWED ME THAT NO MATTER HOW GOOD I DO, NO MATTER HOW WELL BEHAVED, HOW ACCOMPLISHED, HOW AMBITIOUS I AM, SOMEONE STILL IS GOING TO COME ALONG AND SAY DOESN'T MATTER HOW YOU SEE YOURSELF.

THIS IS HOW I SEE YOU.

>> WHY DO YOU THINK YOU DIDN'T TELL ANYBODY FOR SO LONG?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU'RE 6, YOU DON'T REALIZE HOW SMALL YOU ARE.

I THOUGHT I SHOULD HAVE DONE SOMETHING.

I THOUGHT I SHOULD HAVE STOOD UP TO THIS POLICE OFFICER.

YOU KNOW, I WAS ASHAMED THAT I CRIED.

I WAS ASHAMED THAT I FROZE.

YOU KNOW, I THOUGHT I WAS TEN FEET TALL AND, YOU KNOW, I COULD HAVE -- I COULD HAVE TALKED SOME SENSE INTO HIM AT LEAST, BUT I DIDN'T EVEN TRY THAT.

SO IT WAS JUST AN OVERWHELMING SENSE OF SHAME.

>> THIS IS YEARS BEFORE TAMIR RICE, THE STORY FOR PEOPLE WHO I HOPE REMEMBER WAS A 12-YEAR-OLD PLAYING WITH A TOY GUN, THIS WAS IN OHIO, IN 2014, AND WAS SHOT TO DEATH IN FRONT OF HIS 14-YEAR-OLD SISTER.

THE OTHER THING THAT STRIKES ME THAT YOUR MOM IS WHITE, YOUR DAD IS AFRICAN AMERICAN.

YOUR MOM IS THE ONE WHO IS HAVING THE TALK WITH YOU.

>> RIGHT.

>> CAN YOU SAY MORE ABOUT THAT?

>> MY FATHER REFUSED -- HE REFUSED TO TALK ABOUT ANTI-BLACK RACISM, ESPECIALLY RACISM COMING FROM WHITE PEOPLE.

I THINK WHAT HAPPENED WAS I WAS A CHILD AND HE HAD HIS EXPERIENCES.

HE HAD SEEN HIS FATHER'S EXPERIENCES.

AND HE DIDN'T -- I DON'T THINK HE WANTED THE WORLD TO BE THE SAME FOR ME, AND I THINK HE WAS THE KIND OF PERSON WHO THOUGHT THAT YOU COULD CREATE YOUR OWN REALITY, THAT IF YOU PRETEND IT'S NOT HAPPENING, THEN IT CAN'T HURT YOU.

AND MY MOTHER, ON THE OTHER HAND, DID NOT HAVE THAT PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, SO SHE -- IT WAS MORE ACADEMIC FOR HER.

SHE WAS A LITTLE BIT REMOVED FROM IT.

SO I DON'T THINK SHE -- I DON'T THINK SHE HAD SAME -- THE SAME FEARS THAT MY FATHER HAD.

MY MOM DIDN'T KNOW HOW IT WOULD MAKE ME FEEL.

SO SHE WAS COMFORTABLE IN TELLING ME.

>> YOU KNOW, GASLIGHTING IS A BIG -- IS ALSO A PART OF THE BOOK.

>> RIGHT.

>> WHEN YOU, DARRIN, YOU TRY TO MAKE SENSE OF THESE EXPERIENCES WITH SOME -- EVEN YOUR BROTHER, AND SOMETIMES YOUR FRIENDS, THEY ACT LIKE IT'S NOT HAPPENING.

OR IT'S LIKE IT'S NOT ABOUT THIS, IT'S ACTUALLY ABOUT THAT.

>> YEAH.

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE HAD THIS EXPERIENCE.

YOU TALK ABOUT PERHAPS BEING FOLLOWED IN THE STORE AND YOU SAY THAT TO THE WRONG PERSON OR SOMEBODY YOU THINK IS A FRIEND AND THIS IS WHERE GREAT DIVIDING LINE HAPPENS WHERE THEY GO, ARE YOU SURE?

IT WASN'T REALLY THAT.

AND THEN YOUR WHOLE EXPERIENCE IS BEING DISCOUNTED.

I JUST WANTED TO ASK YOU IF YOU WOULD TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT.

>> WE ARE TOLD THAT IT'S NOBLE, IT'S ENLIGHTEN TO NOT GO STRAIGHT TO THAT, TO ENTERTAIN THE NOTION THAT THESE THINGS MIGHT BE CAUSED BY ANY ONE OF, LIKE, THOUSANDS OF OTHER REASONS EXCEPT FOR THE ONE MOST OBVIOUS REASON WHERE SOMEHOW PLAYING THE VICTIM OR, YOU KNOW, WE ARE BEING UNFAIR.

AND, YOU KNOW, WHO HAS BEEN TELLING US THAT FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS?

YOU KNOW, THE PEOPLE WHO WANT US TO THINK THAT.

THE PEOPLE WHO WANT US TO GIVE THEM THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT THEY DON'T DESERVE IT.

AND I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT WHITE PEOPLE IN GENERAL.

I AM TALKING ABOUT RACISTS.

I'M TALKING ABOUT -- EVEN PEOPLE OF COLOR WHO HAVE INTERNALIZED THAT AND ARE DIRECT -- LIKE THE SECURITY GUARD WHO WAS FOLLOWING ME AROUND WAS BLACK.

THE ONE WHO THOUGHT I WAS NO GOOD, EVEN THOUGH HE NEVER SEEN ME BEFORE.

>> I WONDER IF YOU THINK THIS EXPERIENCE OF HAVING YOUR EXPERIENCES DENIED AND NOT VALIDATED KIND OF -- WHERE DO YOU THINK THAT FITS INTO WORK THAT YOU DO TODAY?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT WORK THAT I DO TODAY REVOLVES AROUND THAT.

IT REVOLVES AROUND DENYING THE GASLIGHTING.

AND I DO NOT CARE, YOU KNOW, WHETHER PEOPLE TELL ME THAT I'M IMAGINING IT, THAT IT'S ALL IN MY HEAD.

I MEAN, HOW PATRONIZING IS IT.

HUMANS ARE VERY GOOD AT DISCONCERNING OTHER PEOPLE'S ATTITUDES, WE CAN TELL IF THEY ARE JEALOUS, ANGRY, WE CAN TELL IF SOMEBODY IS HUNGRY.

BUT PEOPLE TELL US THAT BLACK PEOPLE IN PARTICULAR ARE NOT ABLE TO TELL WHEN SOMEBODY IS RACIST.

THAT WE'RE NOT ABLE TO UNDERSTAND BODY LANGUAGE OR TONE OF VOICE OR EVEN THE WORDS COMING OUT OF THEIR MOUTHS THAT WE MISCONSTRUE ALL OF IT.

EVER SINCE THE CIVIL RIGHTS ERA, SOME PORTION OF THIS COUNTRY THINKS RACISM'S ALL IN THE PAST.

WE TOOK CARE OF IT THEN.

IT'S ALL OVER.

BUT IT'S NOT.

>> WHO DO YOU THINK THIS BOOK IS FOR?

DO YOU HAVE SOMEONE IN MIND THAT YOU HOPE WILL FIND IT?

>> THIS BOOK IS FOR A BROAD AUDIENCE.

IT'S FOR PEOPLE LIKE MY FATHER WHO WERE UNCOMFORTABLE WITH GIVING THE TALK.

I THINK IF THIS BOOK BEEN AROUND IN THE EARLY '80s, MY FATHER PROBABLY COULD HAVE JUST SAT DOWN WITH ME AND READ IT.

AND, YOU KNOW, WE WOULD HAVE A DISCUSSION OR NOT.

BUT IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A BIG HELP FOR HIM.

IT WOULD HAVE HELPED HIM FIND THE COURAGE TO DO IT.

IT'S ALSO FOR CHILDREN OF PARENTS LIKE THAT WHO HAVEN'T HAD THE TALK AND NEED IT.

IT'S ALSO FOR ANYBODY WHO IS NOT BLACK, WHO DOESN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT BLACK PEOPLE HAVE BEEN COMPLAINING ABOUT, BECAUSE, I MEAN, HALF MY FAMILY IS WHITE AND I CAN'T TELL YOU HOW MANY TIMES I HAVE HEARD THEM SAY OVER THE YEARS JUST OFFHAND, WHY ARE BLACK PEOPLE ALWAYS COMPLAINING?

BUT IF YOU READ THIS BOOK FOR 350 PAGES OR SO, YOU CAN UNDERSTAND.

>> I WANT TO GO BACK TO WHAT YOU JUST SAID, SOMETHING THAT YOUR, YOU KNOW, HALF YOUR FAMILY IS WHITE.

YOUR MOM'S SIDE OF THE FAMILY IS WHITE.

AND YOUR DAD COULD HAVE SHARED THESE EXPERIENCE SUPPRESSES -- LIKE HE COULD HAVE TALKED TO YOU.

BUT HE DIDN'T, AND HE DIDN'T WANT TO.

>> MY FATHER WAS CHOOSING TO PRO PRETEND IT WASN'T HAPPENING.

WE WOULD GO TO A RELATIVE'S HOUSE WHEN I WAS A KID.

AND I LOVED GOING OVER THERE BECAUSE IT MEANT I WOULD GET DONUTS.

THE REASON I WOULD GET DONUTS IS BECAUSE AFTER ABOUT TEN OR 20 MINUTES MY FATHER WOULD HEAR SO MANY RACIAL SLURS AND, YEAH, ABOUT US, ABOUT HIS SONS, THAT HE WOULD GET UP AND TAKE ME TO THE CORNER TO WINCHELL'S.

I DIDN'T KNOW WHY WE WERE THERE, BUT YOU WAS JUST GOING WITH IT.

>> WHY WAS HE THERE?

WHY WAS HE THERE?

SUBJECTING HIMSELF AND YOU TO DO.

>> THOSE WERE HIS IN-LAWS.

HE WANTED TO KEEP THE PEACE.

HE WANTED US TO KNOW OUR FAMILY.

HE JUST DIDN'T WANT US TO KNOW THEM FOR WHO THEY, YOU KNOW, WHO THEY REALLY WERE AND DIDN'T WANT TO CHALLENGE WHAT THEY WERE SAYING, ESPECIALLY IN FRONT OF US.

BECAUSE HE DIDN'T WANT US -- HE DIDN'T WANT US TO LIVE IN A -- HE DIDN'T WANT US TO THINK THAT WE LIVED IN A WORLD WHERE RACISM EXISTED.

>> WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT?

YOU KNOW, NOW THAT YOU ARE OLDER.

LIKE, WHAT DO YOU SAY SAY TO THAT, COULDN'T KIDS JUST HAVE SOME SORT OF A ZONE OF INNOCENCE WHERE THEY DON'T HAVE TO THINK ABOUT THESE THINGS?

>> WELL, YEAH.

THEY SHOULD.

AND WHEN YOU HAVE THE TALK, IT SHOULD BE AGE APPROPRIATE.

YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU'RE TALKING TO A SMALL CHILD, YOU HAVE TO EMPHASIZE THAT THIS IS A FAILING IN OTHER PEOPLE, THAT THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THEM.

THAT THEY SHOULD IGNORE IT AND JUST PLAY AND JUST, YOU KNOW, JUST HAVE FUN.

AND, YOU YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T HAVE TO TELL THEM EVERYTHING THAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TO THEM IN LIFE.

BUT TELL THEM THINGS THAT THEY CAN RELATE TO.

AND I THINK IT'S NOT JUST THE ONE-WAY THING.

YOU ASK THEM ABOUT THEIR OWN LIFE, ABOUT HOW, YOU KNOW, HOW THEIR FRIENDS ARE TREATING THEM.

IF THEY ARE NOT EXPERIENCING ANYTHING THAT YOU THINK IS RACISM, MAYBE IT'S NOT TIME TO HAVE THE TALK YET.

BUT IF, FOR INSTANCE, AS HAPPENED IN MY BOOK, SOMEONE MAKES FUN OF THEIR LIPS BEING BIG OR THEIR HAIR BEING DIFFERENT, YOU KNOW, THAT'S WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT IT.

>> AND WHAT ABOUT TO WHITE PARENTS WHO MIGHT BE LISTENING TO THIS CONVERSATION AND THINK, WELL, I DON'T -- I DON'T -- I DON'T NEED TO INTRODUCE THAT.

OR EVEN PEOPLE WHO FEEL THAT TALKING ABOUT IT ACTUALLY ENHANCES DIVISION.

IT JUST IS DIVISION.

YOU KNOW, THERE IS THAT POINT OF VIEW.

>> THERE IS.

I MEAN, YOU KNOW, IGNORANCE IS BLISS IS A SAYING FOR A REASON.

BUT, YOU KNOW, IGNORANCE ALWAYS -- ALSO EVENTUALLY LEADS TO TRAGEDY.

IF I THINK WHITE PARENTS NEED TO HAVE THE TALK WITH THEIR WHITE CHILDREN BECAUSE IT'S GOING TO AFFECT THEM.

SOME DAY THEY MIGHT -- YOU KNOW, THEY ARE GOING TO GROW UP AND THEY MIGHT SAY THE WRONG THING OUT OF IGNORANCE, LIKE THEY DIDN'T KNOW THAT WHAT THEY WERE SAYING WAS RACIST OR HURTFUL, THEY MIGHT GET FIRED OVER THAT.

THEY MIGHT GET CANCELED OVER THAT.

WHY WOULD YOU WANT THEM STUMBLING THROUGH LIFE, STUMBLING THROUGH MINE FIELDS WITHOUT KNOWING THAT IT'S A MINEFIELD?

SO I THINK, YOU KNOW, THE NOTION -- AND THE NOTION THAT IT'S DIVISIVE, YOU KNOW, IF YOU DIDN'T PERSONALLY OWN SLAVES AND IF YOU DIDN'T PERSONALLY, YOU KNOW, TURN A FIRE HOSE ON ANYBODY OR SICK DOGS ON THEM OR BEAT THEM, YOU DON'T NEED TO FEEL GUILTY ABOUT IT.

YOU JUST NEED TO BE KNOWLEDGEABLE.

LIKE I LEARNED, YOU KNOW, WE LEARNED ALL SORTS OF ATROCITIES.

WE LEARNED ABOUT THE HOLOCAUST WHEN I WAS A SMALL KID.

WE A HOLOCAUST SURVIVOR COME IN AND SPEAK TO US.

THAT WASN'T DIVISIVE, YOU KNOW?

THAT WAS EDUCATION.

IF THEY -- IF YOU YOURSELF ARE NOT A RACIST, THEN THIS IS JUST EDUCATION.

YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT AN ATTACK.

IT'S NOT AN ACCUSATION.

>> DARRIN BELL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.

IT'S BEEN AN HONOR BEING ON YOUR SHOW.