(soft music) - [Narrator] And now the Crosscut Ideas Festival featuring a selection of curated sessions from this year's festival.

Thank you for joining us for Trump, the Truth and Consequences with Michael Cohen, moderated by Joni Balter.

Before we begin, thank you to our founding sponsor, the Kerry and Linda Killinger Foundation.

(audience clapping) - Hello, everyone.

Welcome to the Crosscut Festival.

My name is Joni Balter.

I am a journalist and a professor at the University of Washington's Evans Graduate School of Public Policy.

I'm also a professional in residence and lecturer at Seattle University.

Today, we are gonna talk about Trump, The Truth and Consequences.

It is my pleasure now to introduce Michael Cohen, Donald Trump's former personal attorney, host of the Mea Culpa podcast, and New York Times bestselling author of "Revenge: How Donald Trump Weaponized the US Department of Justice Against His Critics".

His earlier book was called "Disloyal".

Hi there, Michael.

Thanks for being here.

- Wonderful.

- Wonderful.

So we are on the verge of something quite historic, the first criminal trial of a former president.

What is it like for you to be in the- (audience clapping) (Michael chuckling) As I was saying, what is it like for you to be in the center of that?

And briefly, how do you think that's gonna play out?

- So I'm gonna start with the second part of the question, because I continuously stated that Alvin Bragg's case was going to be the first, and I can't tell you the number of people that questioned the accuracy of that statement.

Well, lo and behold, good for Alvin Bragg coming back and doing what is right.

Now, one of the things that irks me terribly is when I start reading from journalists or I listen to these pundits on television who turn around and say, it's such a ticky tack type of, you know, a case.

Why did he bring it?

And it's funny how all of a sudden now we've decided that we're going to rank crimes, right?

Oh, yeah.

It's not like the January 6th insurrection.

I grant you that.

It's certainly much worse.

Or the theft of, you know, top secret information that he stored at Mar-a-Lardo, you know, in this wherever the heck that he kept it down there, right?

It's certainly much more significant than the hush money payment to a porn star.

But all of a sudden, we're ranking that because if any one of you were involved in it, then you two would be arrested and it would've been done in a much more expeditious manner.

So I give Alvin Bragg a lot of credit.

I was very critical of him for a long time, especially many of you may have seen that Mark Pomerantz put out, you know, his book, but I had met, not just with Mark Pomerantz, 15 times.

But while I was in Otisville prison, the district attorney's office came and visited me three times.

And so this has been a long journey, but rest assured, it's legitimate.

And I do believe that he will be held accountable.

- So what did you observe?

This has been a really busy week in Trumpville.

What did you observe in his approach to the Carroll rape defamation trial that tells you, you know, gives you some hints how he will respond to the case that you're involved in and many of the other legal proceedings, a lot of stuff going on with it.

- Yeah, so anybody, of course, that's watching television has seen the wonderful deposition that was conducted of him approximately a year ago where, you know, he's shown a photo and after stating that she's not his type, he points to her and he states, "Well, that's Marla and that's Yvan."

And they're like, "Whoa, whoa, where's Marla?"

So he points to the photo and it's obviously not Marla, it's E. Jean Carroll.

And it just goes to show you how stupid he is.

I mean, one of the things that we used to say all the time is the worst place to ever have Donald is at a deposition.

First of all, he never tells the truth.

And everything that he talks about is always circular.

And so, as a former litigator and someone who had done many, many depositions over the course of my life, I can tell you he's the exact type of a person that you want to sit across the table from you when you're trying to get your point across.

- [Joni] You mean because he's gonna make the mistakes?

Is that what you're talking about?

- He's perfect for it.

(audience chuckling) It's hard to imagine that he actually became the president of the United States.

I mean, you watch him, you listen to all of the nonsense that he talks about day in and day out.

And it's truly amazing.

I mean, I hate to say it, you know, because I am the one who pushed him into running and I'm angry at myself.

My familys, many friends of mine are angry at me for doing it.

- But you imagined him at that point as president.

- I never thought he would become the worst version of himself imaginable.

I actually thought that he would've elevated himself to the office of the presidency instead of debasing it.

- So in setup lines for different anecdotes, in your two books, you engage in a fair amount of self-loathing.

You say, oh, I was so obsessed.

You say, yes, much of what I did was morally, legally, and ethically repulsive.

How much responsibility do you bear, Michael Cohen, for making Trump the freakish character that he is today?

A king is nothing without his subjects and subordinates, right?

- True, but it's not my DNA.

The ones who really made him into the freakish character that he is is his father, Fred Trump and Mary Trump, the mom.

And yes, I take full responsibility for... And I did.

I'm the only one who ended up going to prison.

I mean, everything else, as you'll read in "Revenge", is pure nonsense.

You know, the tax evasion never happened.

Misrepresentation to a bank never happened.

You'll read it in "Revenge".

It is the most grotesque weaponization of the Justice Department against somebody that he deemed to be a critic.

But I take full responsibility for the hush money payment, for the misrepresentation, the line to Congress.

Even though I like to always say, what was it that I lied about?

What I lied about, 'cause most people don't even know, what I lied about was the number of times that I spoke to Donald Trump about the failed Trump Tower Moscow real estate project.

I stated to the Senate Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence that I spoke to Donald three times.

Now, why did I say three?

Because that's what he wanted.

The minimus number, no Russia, no Russia, no Russia.

You all remember that line.

Almost like who's gonna pay for the wall?

So, you know, that was his thing.

No, right.

The true answer was that I spoke to him about it 10 times.

And that's the charge.

The 1001 violation that Donald and so many of the other Republican acolytes out there are trying to say is going to make me into an a bad witness, you know, attacking my credibility.

- Well, speaking of lying, as you said, you lied to Congress and, you know, this question's coming obviously.

You lied on behalf of Donald Trump a lot of times.

So why should folks who came here today believe what you're telling me right now or telling them.

- So when you say a lot of times, name another lie, name another lie, because you can't, what are you talking about?

Did I... What did I do?

Did I tell somebody that we were gonna file a bankruptcy in order to get them to settle a case?

That Donald, what I did for Donald, remember, was for a real estate development company.

And the lies had no effect upon anybody here.

It had to do with their companies, this company and so on.

But the lie everybody refers to when they say that you lack credibility, again, is that 1001 violation that I was required to plead guilty to.

This, again, is all covered in the book because it is the grossest weaponization against a US citizen.

- But I think what I'm looking for here is some sort of change of heart as you, you know, you represented him, lies were told by you, and what has changed.

Why are you being honest with these folks right now?

- Well, everything that I've said over the course of the past five years since I turned around and I had said to George Stephanopoulos in an ABC interview that my loyalty, my first loyalty belongs to my wife, my daughter, my son, and my country.

And there was no way I was going to allow Donald to room or to cast me as the villain of his story.

And that's when I just decided I was going to speak freely and I was going to tell the truth on everything.

Not that I had lied to them before.

Again, it's really important people understand when on television, they'll say, oh, well, you know, he's a convicted perjury.

Well, that's true, but what people have to understand what they did to me on a Friday, August 18th, after four and a half months of reaching out to the Southern District of New York who refused to meet with myself or my lawyer, they turned around and they said to him alone, Michael has to come in and plead guilty on Monday, or we're finally in 80 page indictment that's gonna include his wife.

And if you know my relationship with my wife, we're going on soon, you know, 29 years, there was no way I was gonna put her through any of this.

They were going to take her out with me in handcuffs on Monday if I didn't agree to do what they told me to do.

In essence, it was a hostage video.

- So is that the moment, was that your breaking point, your absolute I can't do this anymore, this is my breaking point was because of your wife?

Is that what you're saying?

- Breaking point is my family.

He knew it, the Southern District of New York knew it, and they took advantage of the situation.

There was no way in the world I was gonna risk my wife being put in handcuffs and marched out of our building.

- So I can't believe how late we are in the number of years that we've been talking about Donald Trump.

So it makes me think a little bit about a Trump second term.

So I wanna ask you, what would a Trump second term be like?

And what I'm really wondering is what boundaries do you think that he would cross in a second term that he didn't cross already in the first term?

- I don't know, because I'm gonna be in Spain or someplace else.

Now, I can tell you that.

I'm already out there looking to get another passport.

You know, what will it look like?

I hate to say this because I don't want... Yeah, if anybody has watched "The Handmaid's Tale", it's going to be eerily similar.

You're going to have a slew of individuals that will be like the commanders, and that's the group of people who are out there, these religious zealots that wanna turn around and tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her body, that they wanna sit there and attack individuals part of the LGBTQ+ or transgender communities.

They want to control everybody's lives.

That's what it's gonna be like.

When I talk about, for example, in the book, I talk about how Donald and what he had and his Department of Justice did to me, the first thing that they do is they take away your First Amendment constitutional rights.

You'll remember when I was unconstitutional remanded back to Otisville because I refused to waive my First Amendment constitutional right and not to publish the book, "Disloyal".

They were standing behind me, marshalls, "Mr. Cohen, stand up and face the wall."

Handcuffed shackled, like if I was Hannibal Lecter.

Over what?

Over because I said, you can't limit my constitutional right to talk about it.

You can't tell my family or friends.

The book was already with the printers.

What was I supposed to do?

They told me to wait.

Boom.

The first thing that you do in order to create an autocracy, you take away someone's First Amendment constitutional right.

The second thing you do is you take over the military.

Now, taking over the military, everyone's shaking their head and said, it's not gonna be so easy and I agree with you.

So what do you do?

You create a paramilitary group.

And what's the paramilitary group?

Take a look at January 6th, the insurrection, all of these lunatics running around with MAGA flags, baseball bats, paramilitary gear, Kevlar, some had guns, some had bear spray, zip ties, that's his army.

And that's what you do.

And what do you do?

You attack the capitol, you attack the government.

I truly believe that Donald Trump is the single most significant issue right now in the potential destruction of our democracy ever.

- What does it feel like to see Donald Trump suffering a few consequences for years of misbehavior?

And in that answer, I would love to hear if you sort of fear that he's somehow not gonna face any significant consequences.

- Okay.

So to me, it's all about accountability.

It's something that Donald has successfully avoided his entire life until Alvin Bragg, until our unsinkable New York Attorney General.

That's a civil case though.

And that's going to affect, as it already has, the Trump organization, which is his pride and joy.

He basically, it's his ego, the Trump organization, Donald.

You know, they're symbiotic.

It's a interesting thing.

I don't want to see Donald Trump, and I've said this before, I don't wanna see him indicted, prosecuted, convicted, imprisoned simply because I fundamentally disagree with virtually everything that comes out of his mouth.

- Well, what do you wanna see occur?

- Accountability.

What I want... - What does that look like?

- Well, what I wanna see from him is if in fact a jury comes back and makes a determination that he's guilty of the charges that are being levied against him by the various different, whether it be Fannie Willis from Georgia, whether it be Jack Smith, or whoever's gonna prosecute that specific case, whether it be Alvin Bragg or any of the other cases, E. Jean Carroll, I want to see him held accountable and responsible, not because it makes me feel better but because any one of us would suffer the same consequence.

And just to remind people, I did suffer the consequence.

And so I think it's important that it show the American people that no one is above the law.

(audience clapping) - He likes that.

As Donald Trump's lawyer, what is it like to challenge an idea of his?

In other words, do you brace yourself for kind of a big shouting match?

How often does ketchup fly?

- Yeah.

(chuckles) It's a rarity.

And that's why you start to see so many of the lawyers- - It's a rare that you confront.

- Correct.

Now, he would ask me my opinion on virtually everything.

But you would already know in advance the answer that he wanted.

So he would turn around and make the statement in such a way that you knew the answer he wanted.

He would say to you something like, Joni, is this not the greatest water that you've ever had?

Trump ice is the best water.

- No, I haven't even had any, I'm protecting myself.

- Quite frankly.

- Nothing's better than Trump ice, right?

So what are you gonna say to him?

No, it's the worst.

It tastes like plastic.

You can't argue with that type of question when it's presented.

And in law, we call that a leading question.

That's how he would respond.

And if you disagreed with him, he would ask that same question to every single person, whether it's the doorman, whether it's, you know, another lawyer at the company, whether it would be Alan Weis- - He's crowdsourcing the product.

- Until he finds the one person that agrees with his position, and then he'll tell you whether it's on television.

What are you talking?

He goes, everybody agrees.

No, no, no.

Nobody agreed, only one person.

And that person, you know, didn't even try it, right?

So that's the whole issue.

So when you fight with him, it's an unfair fight because he doesn't fight fairly.

And that's why so many lawyers have made the mistake.

I mean, think about Christina Hobb, who signed the document stating that they returned all of the documents, you know, to the National Archives, right, under the Presidential Records Act.

Instead she signs it.

Now, she's in trouble.

Look at Rudy Giuliani with the whole problem.

Look at all of the various different individuals who have now gone down, myself included, simply because you don't wanna fight with him.

It's an unfair fight.

- But you did mention ketchup and I'm from Pittsburgh originally, and I care a lot about the ketchup.

(audience laughing) - I understand that.

I know he never threw ketchup at me.

- Is there anything, and you know him pretty well, that will stop Donald Trump from trying to be president again?

You know, what would it take to stop him if various investigations and lawsuits don't slow him down?

- Me.

- Wanna elaborate?

- I will continue- - No, you're gonna stop him from running in 2024.

- I will stop him as I did before.

I will use my voice as much as I possibly can.

I have not one but actually two podcasts.

My goal is to ensure that people know the truth about him, and that he is not fit to be president of the United States again.

- You gotta forgive me for a second.

I don't think you alone can make this change.

- I will do my best to try and I will try to bring on, as we do with, for example, political.

I have several million followers.

My goal is to get each and every one of them to bring on additional two, three people until finally, where such a significant force that we will ensure that he does not become the 47th president of the United States of America.

- Which of the... You know, there's so many different investigations and court proceedings, which of them, from what you know, most riles him, which is the one that just creates the fear that you've talked about also.

You said he's finally afraid after the New York filing.

So which one?

And I'm just going on your gut or something you've seen or something you know.

- All of them because- - So it's the collection of all of them.

- It's all of them.

And the reason why is it's Alvin Bragg's case, it's already in motion.

He knows that the Fani Willis Georgia case is coming down the pike any day now, so he's waiting for that.

He also knows that the Mar-a-Lago document case is also coming down.

January 6th is gonna be a little more difficult because it's tricky.

The legal aspects of it are quite tricky.

But he knows that all of this litigation that's surrounding him is interfering with his opportunity to lie to the American people, so that he can become president again and which of course he wants to do in order to avoid the responsibility of all- - [Joni] You're saying he doesn't wanna be president.

- He didn't wanna be president the first time.

It was supposed to.

When we started the case...

When we started the running, he always said, this is supposed to be the greatest infomercial in the history of politics.

- So hold that thought, because it's time for me, I believe, to ask you an audience question, which works pretty well with that.

What made you push Trump to run for office?

You obviously despise him now, so what drew you to him originally?

Some of that is in the books.

His awful behaviors, this questionnaire says, are not new.

- Right.

So as it relates, for example, to E. Jean Carroll, that happened when I was first year out of law school.

I was not involved.

I had never heard of that case until it came about, which, you know, good for her for, you know, bringing it to the forefront.

But I didn't expect again that Donald would become the worst version of himself imaginable.

And if you start to look at basically politics, the swamp, I really thought that there were things that he could do that would be beneficial to the country.

I thought as an outsider that he could- - Name one thing.

- Infrastructure bill.

We talked about that for two years.

Two years.

And instead, I'm sitting in the Oval Office with him.

It was March of 2017.

And he said to me, "so Michael, what did you think of this immigration bill?

I said, "That's not an immigration bill, that's a Muslim ban."

And I think it's disgusting.

And he blamed, of course, on Steve Bannon, Steve Miller, but at the end of the day, he wasn't supposed to start with that.

You start with infrastructure, which, of course, is the builder that would've been perfect for him.

- Is Donald Trump stupid or extremely smart and strategic in his abilities to lie and dodge the troop and persuade the naive and maintain power?

- He's stupid, but he's stupid in a clever way, like a cult leader.

I mean, he's no different than Jim Jones.

They're drinking, you know, the Kool-Aid except Trump wouldn't even spring for Kool-Aid, he'd go for the cheap knockoff version because it doesn't matter, right, if there's profit for him.

It's sad that 70 million people voted for him.

How about this 26, 27% of these MAGAs that are supporting him to the tune of $17 million after an indictment?

Seriously?

Or they're supporting him after the allegations being made by E. Jean Carroll and others that have come forward about, you know, his sexual assaulting of them?

- Wait a minute, then how stupid is that?

He's got these supporters.

- It doesn't make you smart.

He's conniving.

There's a big difference.

But why I say that he's stupid?

All you need to do is read a deposition that Donald Trump was involved in.

He lies with such impunity that he can't remember the lie.

You know, the old expression, a lie begets a lie.

Or what if it's a lie begets a lie begets a lie begets a lie a lie and a lie, another lie?

And then at the end of the day, he doesn't know whether he's coming or going and everything is made up.

And that's why he's so circular in his conversation and how easy it is, as you know, the deposer, right, to trip him up.

- Do you think that it's sort of too late for America to recover from these years, these events that have happened in our politics?

- Well, we're hanging by a shoestring, as they say.

Our democracy is in peril.

And as I said before, Donald is the single most dangerous situation ever to happen to this country's democracy.

He's exactly what our forefathers were afraid of, that they would be a president who would wanna be more than just a president, would wanna be an autocrat.

And that's why, of course, they had the establishment of the tripartite system.

Well, that only works if you respect the tripartite system.

You respect the Constitution.

The problem is Donald can't even spell it.

- What are the weaknesses in the way Donald Trump operates that should be targeted to successfully counter him, assuming he's the nominee or just even even going into the primaries?

What are the opponents missing?

What are they not know how to counter him?

- So look, here's another misconception, okay.

I'm a Republican, I've been a Democrat my whole life.

Democrats are terrible at messaging whereas the Republicans are great at it.

And how many times that I have reached out to the DNC, even whether it's through Lincoln Project, through Justice Matters.

- Have you talked to those folks?

- Of course I have and I speak to... You know, I've reached out to them a dozens and dozens of times.

You're missing the point here.

It's all about the messaging.

It's something that, listen, I can say all the things about Donald that has never read a book in his life, that he's great at messaging.

That is his superpower.

- Is it true that he's never read a book in his life?

- He's never read a book in his life.

including his own "Art of the Deal".

- He probably read that one.

- No, he didn't.

It was written by somebody else.

But putting all that aside, that his superpower is branding and messaging.

I mean, how many people, you know, remember all of the names, right?

Lion Ted, and yet he still is a big fan.

Crooked Hillary, right?

Low-energy Jeb.

He makes these monikers that stick.

His branding is fantastic because he preys on people's fears.

He's a popularist and he knows how to prey on, you know, on people's fears, their inhibitions and so on better than just about anyone that's out there.

- Can you speak, and we really don't have much time here, so you gotta go tight.

Can you speak to Trump's finances?

Is he a billionaire?

Is he broke?

It's all in different accounts, I understand.

- So currently, he's not broke.

Is he a billionaire?

Yes.

Is he worth $10 billion?

No, never was.

Was he worth eight?

No.

Five, no.

Three, no.

Is he somewhere between one in the mid-twos based upon assets?

Probably yes.

I don't fully know what the extent of his obligations are or what's gonna happen with the New York AGs case, but that's going to end up being the death spiral to the Trump organization.

- So we are officially out of time.

Michael Cohen, I wanna thank you so much for joining me today and I wanna thank for all of you here at the festival, it's been such a fun interview.

Thank you so much.

(audience clapping) (bright gentle music)