[lounge music] ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ [Narrator] "On Story" is brought to you in part by the Alice Kleberg Reynolds Foundation, a Texas family providing innovative funding since 1979.

[waves] [kids screaming] [wind] [witch cackling] [sirens wail] [gunshots] [dripping] [suspenseful music] [telegraph beeping, typing] [piano gliss] From Austin Film Festival, this is "On Story," a look inside the creative process from today's leading writers, creators and filmmakers.

This week on "On Story," producer, Christine Vachon, and writer/director, Celine Song, discuss their experience collaborating on "Past Lives" and "Materialists."

- I know Christine will agree with this.

I think the main problem is that the artist feel like they're often in a position of being a beggar, but the truth is that the artist is a person who understands better than anyone what we are going to make together.

So actually, the artist is the foundation of how a project is going to go and who that person is, and what that person believes about the project.

I think that's the core of the relationship and the artist is not the beggar for producer's attention.

[paper crumples] [typing] [carriage returns, ding] [Narrator] This week on "On Story," Academy Award nominated writer/director, Celine Song, and prolific independent film producer, Christine Vachon, join us to discuss the creative relationship between writers and producers and to share their experience collaborating on "Past Lives" and "Materialists."

[typewriter dings] - So, I'd like to start at the origin of y'all's collaboration.

So how did both of you come to collaborating on "Past Lives"?

Did you bring a full script to Christine and Killer Films?

- Well, it's a script that I wrote hoping that someone would let me direct it.

And then, of course, I really wanted to direct it and I had a lot of good arguments for being able to direct it, which is that it was a bilingual script and it's very inspired by moments in my own life.

So I was like, "I think they're gonna let me direct it."

- Christine, I know previous interview online, and I'm paraphrasing, you said it's critical that the director and the producer are making the same film.

And so early on in that collaboration, what conversations are you having to ensure a shared vision?

- Making the same film/knowing the story you want to tell.

Those are very similar.

And if a writer/director can really express effectively what that story is, then I know as a producer that I don't really have anything to worry about.

You know, look, there is a lot of pivots when you make a movie and a lot of like, "Oh, well, we didn't get that location.

We got this one.

It's gonna rain that day, but it's the only day the actor can work."

All of those things that you just have to, you know, roll with.

But if the director, and in this case, the writer/director knows the story they want to tell, they can roll with those things because they can figure out, "Okay, you know, I'm not having exactly the thing I wanted, but I understand the narrative essence of this scene, and I can still get to it."

- I know Christine will agree with this.

I think the main problem is that the artists feel like they're often in the position of being a beggar.

But the truth is that the artist is a person who understands better than anyone what we're going to make together.

So actually, the artist is actually, I think about them as like the foundation of how a project is going to go and who that person is, and what that person believes about the project.

So some of it is actually less about like, "Well, does the producer want," and things like that.

It's actually so much more about, "Well, how can you communicate effectively with your producer?"

I think the truth is that every artist should have as intimate a relationship with their producer as they would with their spouse.

So I think that's the core of the relationship.

And the artist is not the beggar for the producer's attention, right?

It's actually the producer's interest to investigate.

And they're like archeologists.

Or like when there's a better thing.

Archeologists-- anthropologists, right?

They're the anthropologists for the script and then the project that the artist has, right?

And if you're good, if you're a good director, if you're a good writer, then you have to be also good at communicating what is in the fields that the producers or anthropologists at.

[typewriter dings] - Well, I love "Materialists" because it gave me the expectations of a romance, right?

These beautiful lit dancing scenes and these great kisses and that great bouquet of flowers.

But it also sort of subverted my expectations.

It brings up the realities of dating.

And one of those realities is sexual assault, which comes up when Lucy's client, Sophie, blames her.

Can you all talk a little bit about the choice to sort of balance the romance and the reality and how you go about, you know, depicting that?

- The sexual assault has always been a part of the script's DNA.

So, you know, like Christine has never seen the script that doesn't have all the beats.

- You made the best match you could, given the information you have.

This particular match did not work out, but you've been doing amazing work for Sophie for months.

- The match didn't not work out, Vi.

She was assaulted.

- A matchmaker can't vouch for how a person is in an intimate setting since she's never been in one with them.

- Has something like this happened before?

- Of course, this is dating.

This happened to one of my clients the third year I worked here.

If you do this long enough, it happens to all of us.

- I think the statistics is pretty, it's a little outdated, which makes me feel like it's probably higher.

I think one in three women experience sexual assault once in their life, at least once in their life.

So it was something that, which I thought was so interesting, 'cause I feel like that that data is presented as like one in three women.

And then I was like, "Well, "what if it's a one in three men too?"

You know?

So I think that it was always in the DNA of the story, because the thing that you're talking about is really the a stated thesis and the goal of the film, which is to be quite real about modern dating.

And then to figure out how to tell the story about modern dating as honestly as we can while still remaining a romantic film.

And also cinema.

Because I mean like, there is an amazing thing that is like in its heart, escapist about cinema, because, of course, you're looking at beautiful faces of beautiful actors in beautiful places and perfect clothes, right?

So there is a kind of an element of a fantasy in any kind of film, but how do we actually take that opportunity, right?

Because something that I know is like, well, I'm inviting an audience into a movie theater where we get to talk about love and dating and things that concern us about what it's like to be a human.

And then, you know, you invite them into this room and then a part of it is like, "Well, now that we're all here and we're happy in the summer, you know, in the movie theaters, what if you actually talked about the real thing?

What if you talked about some of the things that actually [censored] with us?"

So I think that that was always a hugely important part of the movie.

It was always in the film about like, "Well, how can you actually accept that?"

And of course, when it comes to Harry's leg surgery too, to me it's like, "Well, I think that it is not quite fair that we're only seeing the way that women are brutalized in the dating marketplace because I think that men are also crushed by it too."

I read that it's the fastest growing surgery, of course, among men, but also it's like one of the only surgeries, plastic surgeries that are driven by and held by men, right?

So I think that's something that I really wanna talk about is like, "Well, that's a very material thing that you're doing to your body," right?

To break your legs.

But then you're like, "Well, what is it for?"

Well, actually for this thing that we all agree is something that matters to us more than being human, which is value.

- Was it painful?

- I know it sounds stupid, breaking your legs to gain a few extra inches, but we keep saying definitely worth it.

Changed our lives... with women completely, of course.

Women just approach us and talk to us now, which never happened before.

I haven't struck out since.

You can also tell the difference at work and at restaurants and airports, you're just worth more.

- And of course throughout the film, you hear these characters say, talk about value over and over, you know?

But then I think the something that I know is quite true is that the most important line in the whole film is when Sophie says, "I'm not merchandise, I'm a person."

- The truth is, you set me up with that man because you think I'm worthless.

- No, I didn't.

- You didn't know what to do with me.

That's how I ended up on that date.

Here I was thinking that you worked for me, but the whole time, I was working for you, worthless merchandise to pawn off to anyone who'd take it.

But I am not merchandise.

I am a person and I know I deserve love.

- What she's saying is that actually human beings cannot be evaluated, right?

And there actually cannot be value in human beings.

I know it's hard in late capitalism to remember that.

I think it's very hard to remember that.

'cause the whole world will treat you that way.

But we have to still remember when we are looking at other human being that actually their worth in the marketplace of dating, of jobs, whatever, how much income they have.

Like it doesn't actually, it's not going to hold up because at the end of the day, we're just two people who are sitting in the same room.

[typewriter dings] - The "Materialists," you know, I would say, "Yeah, you're right."

It was one of those movies where once we got a cast, once the locations kind of fell into place and, you know, I think it would be interesting for you to talk maybe a little bit about, you know, the wedding, which is, you know, pivotal and how many different locations that ended up being.

- Oh yeah.

I mean, that's the thing.

I feel like the amount of work that location team does is like, it's gonna determine what you can do in that space and also what kind of space.

And I think of my location manager as, you know, my location manager as close to my DP and production designer and myself as any other department, right?

Department head, and we are really close and we're part of all the creative conversations together because, you know, like we're also talking about like, you know, "Where would Harry take Lucy on a date?"

Right, and then you're like, "Well, you can have all kinds of approaches to that, but we also have to be aligned in like how we wanna communicate exactly what kind of a guy Harry is, while also finding a location that is visually beautiful," right?

So it's always a balance of like, "What's really real about a character like Harry?"

And also, you know, like, "Is it gonna look good when we shoot it?"

But anyway, the truth about that first wedding, the one with Harry and Lucy where they meet and then John comes in with Coke and beer, that wedding is put together by four separate locations that we've paid full price for.

You know, it's the most expensive wedding ever.

It's almost like, I would say, it's like probably more expensive than like an actual wedding because it was, but it also had to do with what each like hotel or location could possibly offer.

- Do you want a drink?

- Sure.

- What do you want?

- Coke and beer.

[glasses dinging] [orchestral music] - Hey, buddy.

- Hi, John.

[orchestral music] - Working now, obviously, but talk after dinner service.

- Yeah.

- Okay, great.

[wedding host] Love is the last religion.

- The problem with "Materialists" is that budget is what it is, but then you're like, well, you're trying to tell a story about a really, really, really wealthy person through the environment, what that means, it's gonna be expensive.

It's gonna be expensive.

I mean, John's spaces are of course like a lot less, 'cause John's spaces are, you know, like the spaces where like it wouldn't cost that much to rent.

Although, like I think it ended up being... - Mostly sets.

- It's mostly sets 'cause a John's apartment is actually a built set, so that's expensive.

- Right.

But it kind of, I mean, to shoot in a tiny little apartment like that would've been a nightmare.

- We would have to move walls and stuff, yeah.

- But on "Past lives," we were nimble enough.

I remember sometimes like when we were shooting in the East Village, I would run over to location 'cause I live in the East Village and I'd be like, "Wait, where is everybody?"

And you'd all moved like, you were like, "No, we actually liked a location two streets over."

And that was okay, we could do that.

We couldn't do that on "Materialists."

- And what's always a dilemma is like the whole point of shooting this New York City movie in New York City is for the exteriors, the beautiful exteriors that are so unique to New York City.

So it's amazing to shoot in the exterior, but of course it's very hard to shoot the exterior with Pedro and Chris and Dakota.

[typewriter dings] - I wanted to talk about casting because I think it was perfect both times.

And I just wanna know, how does the producer and the director collaborate on casting?

What does that process sort of look like?

- I know people write for specific talent.

I am just not that person.

I'm always writing characters without thinking about who's gonna play them.

And then I go out usually in search of the right soulmate, actor for that character.

And it can come in, it's always going to be a little surprising and a little bit of, I just need a lot of inspiration.

Just like falling in love, you know, it's like falling in love.

You have to feel inspired by the idea of somebody playing a character that at the moment is just words on a page and things that they're gonna say.

So that's my approach to casting generally.

But what that means is that we're often just being like, "Okay, it could be any of these people who feels like they're right."

And then of course, it's also a matter of, especially when there's the three leads, like in my film, like three actors who have to have chemistry with each other.

And also they need to have different kinds of chemistry with each other.

Like Lucy and Harry need a very different chemistry than Lucy and John.

So when you're looking for that, you're also trying to figure out who is the first person you're trying to cast 'cause depending on their age and their energy, everything, the other two are gonna be different people, right?

[typewriter dings] - From both the writer/director standpoint and then the producer standpoint from "Materialists," what is the scene that you're most proud of?

- You know, if you had asked me, you know, a few days ago, I might have said, "Oh, you know, when John says, 'How would you like to make, you know, a terrible financial decision?'"

Because that's just, I think Chris nails it.

I think Dakota's response is so nuanced and amazing.

- Hi.

- Hi.

[birds singing] - How you'd like to make a very bad financial decision?

- It's touching and romantic, but also absolutely true to the movie itself.

And it's just like, "Can you do this?"

And she kind of has to think like, "Can I do it?"

- I think that my favorite scene is, or favorite moment is when Lucy starts walking towards John at the end as he's trying to describe like how he's going to make a little more money.

Like, you know, he's like, "I'm gonna get a job, I'm gonna get a manager."

Like he's doing all this.

And then you get to see Dakota walk towards him until she like meets him and then they kiss.

And then the thing is, like that shot when I saw it, I'm like, "She's cupid, you know, "she's like a full like love embodied," you know?

- Also, the, you know, the final scene, the credit scene, you know, in City Hall is so extraordinary to me just because I know what went into it, which was, you know, it was a lot of people.

But it manages to capture that sense of absolute hope that people have when they go there.

That, you know, when you go to City Hall in New York City, at least, it's the most hopeful place in the world 'cause everyone's like, "We're doing this."

And it's the biggest mix of people possible.

And I thought it was perfectly orchestrated.

- I mean, this is so, and it's also most of the, a lot of the actors you see on screen during the credit sequence are crew members.

- That's right.

- And they're partners.

'Cause it was a Bring your spouse to work day.

I know.

Isn't it amazing?

- So sweet.

- Like, it started out as an idea that we all had because we're like, you know, it's a easy way to get more background for cheap.

And then, you know, like our, you know, so many of them, there was a couple, I can't say who, but there was a couple that formed within our crew.

And it's because, and that happens because when you're making movies about love, you know, it happened in both my movies, it's like, you know, people sometimes fall in love.

[typewriter dings] - Were there any sort of lessons you took into the second round- - We talked about learning.

- Yeah, learning, yeah.

- Well, I think that, I mean, "Past Lives," I mean, I learned from zero.

So to me, I feel like the whole all of "Past Lives" was a process of learning.

So what I mean, like when you're trying to think about who you wanna work with, always work with somebody who makes you feel like they got the things they you don't know covered.

And then that they actually don't think that you're an idiot for not knowing something, right?

Yeah.

- But what I would also add to that, that Celine brought to the table is she was never afraid to say she didn't know something.

And that is critical.

And when we were on set, if somebody used a term that you didn't understand, you didn't pretend that you did, you just said to us, "What the [censored] does MOS mean?"

[audience laughing] You know?

- Well, so I think that, to me, I'm like the, that to me is the courage that actually absolutely is a part of the director's job description.

- But it comes back to knowing the story you want to tell.

Because if you know the story that you want to tell, all of that is just the like steps on the way.

And the crew can tell, I mean, the crew can tell immediately.

- It becomes about defensive filmmaking, right?

So to me it's like, I think being confident is actually a part of the director's job description.

- Absolutely.

- I think there's a whole other section of the partnership that is happening so that the rest of the film set can only see you as confident and has the answers, right?

And then what that does is, is not like, that's good because it's gonna be a fun working area.

It actually makes everybody do a better job, right?

'Cause everybody, if people are not operating out of fear and insecurity and instability, like people are then able to work at their most creative highest level because they're not afraid.

'Cause they know that like, God, you know, God forbid they have a bad idea, right?

It's like as long as the director is willing to take the, you know, hear it and then to not make them feel awful for it.

And then for the director, if they take the idea and that it doesn't go well, something that I know also is true is that as a director, you have to take the responsibility.

I think that every single thing that I learned in "Past Lives" came out of, happened for "Materialists."

- Look, when you work with a director for the first time, you learn how, you know, every day, you learn how to be a better producer for them.

And, you know, I remember, I think it was on "Past Lives," there was something that like everyone was a little like a pivot that had to happen.

And everyone was like, "When do we tell Celine?

"When do we tell Celine?"

And I was like, "How about now?"

And I just went over to you and said, "Hey, you know, the thing we thought we were gonna be able to do, we can't do.

So we can do one of these two things."

And you were like, "Okay, I think I'd rather do the second one."

And I was like, "Okay, great."

And I go back to everybody and I'm like, "What?

Like, what was the big deal?"

- Part of it is like, I'm learning, I'm learning about myself, you know what I mean?

At the same time that Christine is learning about me.

- But I mean, and that's a great way to put it because, you know, when you're in that situation, that is what you learn.

And that's how, I mean, I know this panel is supposed to be about, you know, producer/writer relationship or a producer/writer/director relationship.

But that is a big part of it, like is about information and how you disclose it and the way you disclose it and really respecting what the writer/director, what's best for them.

- To me, what matters more than anything from all my collaborators, including Christine, is that do you get the story?

Do you get it?

I would say that every single person who worked in the movie was moved by "Past Lives."

You know, and by the way, there were producers who did not cry at the end of reading my script.

I'm looking for a producer who understands it for what it is and accepts it for what it is and loves it for what it is.

- Celine has heard me tell this story a million times, but one of the things I love about "Past Lives" is one of its strengths is almost everyone who sees it thinks it's about them.

And the story I always tell is I introduced Celine very quickly to Steven Spielberg at the Academy Lunch.

And he was, he'd met me once before and pretended to remember that.

And I was like, "I just wanna make sure you know, you meet Celine Song who did 'Past Lives.'"

And he was like, [gasps], "That movie's about me and my wife."

And then I faded away as I should have.

And I believe you then had a conversation with him about how meaningful it was to him because it was about him and how he and his wife almost didn't have a life together.

And, and that's the power of that film.

[typewriter dings] [Narrator] You've been watching The Writer Producer Relationship with Celine Song and Christine Vachon on "On Story."

"On Story" is part of a growing number of programs in Austin Film Festival's On Story Project, that also includes the On Story radio program, podcast, book series, and the On Story archive, accessible through the Wittliff Collections at Texas State University.

To find out more about On Story and Austin Film Festival, visit onstory.tv or austinfilmfestival.com.

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