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(upbeat music) - Hey everyone, Steve Adubato with Neal Shapiro, the President and CEO of the WNET Group.

Neal, this is the final night of Yankee Week here on "One-on-One."

And again, check out steveadubato.org if you missed the other ones.

We featured an interview with Ian O'Connor.

Two captains, one is Derek Jeter, the other one is Thurman Munson, this great book by Marty Appel.

Two of the greatest captains of all time for the Yankees, Neal?

- Absolutely, not just because I think of how they both performed on the field, but what I think they meant to their team.

Munson, obviously, we lost far too soon.

I remember his funeral and I remember when the team plays that next night, Bobby Murcer knocks in all of the runs, the Yankees dissolving in tears, how much he meant to that team, so integral to their success.

And then- - Let's talk.

- Go ahead.

- No, I'm sorry Neal.

Only because you have...

I told folks the first night I can't find my Derek Jeter cup.

Neal has his right there.

Show everyone.

Again, it's my favorite cup in the house.

I'm upset I don't have it.

But Neal, Jeter, a leader on and off the field, quiet leadership.

You and I, students of leadership.

Talk more about Jeter.

- You know, they still tell you in baseball that there's no such thing as clutch plays and clutch hitting, that over time they all do the same.

But anybody who followed Derek Jeter knows that's not true.

And in the great moments, he stepped up.

In the World Series, he was great.

You can think about the great...

When he said he gets 3,000 hits, he goes five for five and it's a home run on his 3,000th set.

He always felt comfortable in any stage and he felt comfortable in his own skin, which is pretty amazing where he was.

And the fact that he was so into the Yankee lore, he dreamed of being a Yankee as a kid, he was a Yankee.

He said, "I'm so proud and grateful to be a Yankee."

And I think fans realized that, you know, that we're a part of that tradition too.

He always thanked the fans and how important that was.

I think people felt like we really had a relationship with Derek Jeter, like he was our captain too.

And I think that's part of the reason why he is so beloved to this day.

- Thurman.

- Thurman Munson was, you know, I remember being at a Yankee game and they put up a video of him and I sort of got teared up and this 12-year-old kid said, "Do you remember Thurman Munson?"

And I said, "Like yesterday."

There was something so great about him that not only as as a catcher, where he had a couple of great years as MVP and set the tone for reminding people what an offensive force he was, but he was so determined to win.

All that mattered was winning and you know, whether he would...

He would have players crashing into him at home plate, he was like a wall.

He threw, he had a great arm, he would throw guys out.

But what he cared about was winning.

And he had nothing really else mattered to him.

He played through incredible pain, be bruised all season long.

But he set an example, right?

We're here to do one thing and that's to win.

- A we guy, a team guy.

I know it sounds like such a cliche, but Neal understands better than most that that was true not only for Munson, but for Derek Jeter.

We start off with the interview with Ian O'Connor talking about the Captain Derek Jeter and the other great captain who we lost way too soon, the great Thurman Munson.

Neal and I will be on the back end just thanking everyone for watching us in Yankee Week and check out two great captains for the Yankees.

(upbeat music) - kI was looking at the "New York Post" who got, you know, the excerpts from the book, and the first thing they play out is the relationship, or lack thereof, relationship between Derek Jeter and Alex Rodriguez.

How much of the book is about that complicated relationship?

- I think, Steve, after 2004 and beyond, it's a big part of it because, and obviously they did repair the relationship in 2009.

As a Yankee fan, all Yankee fans know, just looking at them, their body language, when they were together around the dug out the batting cages.

- [Steve] Sure.

- They repaired it and won a championship.

- [Steve] It'd be hard to fake that all that time.

- That's right.

And they didn't fake it.

Actually, what happened there, Steve, in '09 was after the steroid confessional on Alex's end, he comes back an emasculated figure, and really, Derek Jeter allowed him really to reach out, finally to Alex, after management had asked him to do that for a number of years, he finally did reach out and try to bring him in from the cold, if you will, and they worked at it.

They're never going to be best friends again, but they did have a good functioning working relationship in 2009.

It eased the divide in the clubhouse, it eased the tension in the clubhouse and definitely allowed that team, or helped allow that team to win it all.

- Describe, from your perspective I mean, as we do the program, Who knows what's going to happen with the Yankees?

But as we do the program, Derek Jeter is struggling, let's just say, at the plate, and he struggled last year as well, but you're comparing it against an extraordinary career, extraordinary body of work.

The captain, if you will.

Describe his personality.

That we don't see.

- He's a very dignified presence, obviously, and I like to say that on or off the field, he probably carries himself as a Yankee better than anyone since Lou Gehrig.

If you look at the works on DiMaggio and Mantle over the years and how they're described, the way they treated people, that's not Derek Jeter.

He doesn't do that.

In his image, the reality of Derek Jeter matches up with the image.

I think what he's looking for now is a dignified end to his career, and that's not easy for a superstar athlete who's aging to find.

He's a very private guy.

He doesn't like to open any public windows on his soul.

He actually didn't want me to write this book.

- [Steve] How do you know?

- He told me.

(Steve laughs) - And when I approached him a couple of years ago about it and said, "I want to write or at least attempt to write a definitive biography on your career," his first response was, "My career's not over."

And I explained, "Well, you know, you're going to be approaching 3,000 hits, no Yankee's ever done that.

You are going to be nearing the end of your career, and I'd like to give it a shot."

And I promised him at the time, I'm going to run out every ground ball like you do.

I'm going to work as hard on this project to get it right as you've ever worked in your life as a Yankee, and I think I honored that pledge.

- You know what's interesting, as I think about Jeter, I think he signs a multi-year deal at this age.

How old is he?

- [Ian] He's going to be 37 in June.

- And again, you get what you can get.

Career is what it is.

Obviously, he'll never worry about money.

But I often wonder a guy like Derek Jeter, as smart as he is, as much of a leader as he is, I've heard him say many times he would never want to manage, but he would want to "own a team."

Realistic?

- I think so.

Yeah, I think as I could see him buying into a group, the only thing is, I can't see him owning, Steve, another team.

I mean, his whole identity is wrapped around the Yankees, and he knows there's a significant value in being a one uniform icon like Cal Ripken Jr. That's what he wants to be.

But then if he goes off, well, Michael Jordan went and played for the Washington Wizards and was an executive and it just- - [Steve] He was a bull.

- That's right, he was a bull.

If Derek Jeter is going to be an owner or part owner of the Kansas City Royals or the Tampa Rays, it's just not going to feel right, it's not going to look right.

So the question is, will the Steinbrenner family ever offer him the option to buy in?

I think that's a possibility.

I don't know if that's been discussed to date.

I do know he's very serious about owning a team, so we'll see how that plays out.

- Derek Jeter's never been the greatest athlete.

I mean, he's a great athlete, but he's never been the greatest on the team.

- [Ian] Right.

- Never been the most talented player.

What makes him as great as he is, a first-ballot, obviously, Hall of Famer?

- I think just the drive, you know?

The criticism does motivate him, I don't know if he likes to admit that publicly.

The criticism bothers him, and I think he is just a guy driven to succeed.

He's built his whole legacy and career around team-centric pursuits.

He likes to remind people it's about winning championships.

When Alex Rodriguez first came aboard in 2004 in the trade that Derek probably didn't want or didn't want, he said at that press conference, "You know, at the end of the day, we're all judged by the titles we win."

At that point, Derek had won four, Alex, zero.

But Alex Rodriguez was regarded as the greater physical talent and still is to this day.

I think Derek Jeter is just a guy who grew up driven to succeed, to achieve.

He's an achiever in everything he's ever done, in school as well.

And I think that's really the core of what he is.

He's never disrespected an authority figure in the game.

I think he's really about playing the game the right way and honoring the DiMaggio credo of there's always going to be someone in the crowd who's never seen you play that day, so every ground ball, you run out, and you play as if that person hasn't seen you.

And I think that's why, and that's what made him great, that commitment every day to achieve and excel.

- It's interesting you just made a reference to that's what made him great.

I believe him, that's what makes him great, but go back to what Jeter said- - [Ian] Yeah.

- "I'm still playing."

He signs a multi-year deal, hypothetical.

He's batting about .250, .255 right now as we do this show.

Say he literally bats .220 and has eight home runs.

Do you think it's in Derek Jeter and has very few extra base hits and he becomes a liability.

Do you see Derek Jeter having it in him, team player as you said, where he says, "I'm not helping enough, no matter whether I have a long-term contract or not, I'm stepping down."

Do you see it?

- I do.

I do, Steve.

I think DiMaggio did that at the end of the '51 season when the Yankees did offer him a chance to return and he said- - [Steve] He was in the middle of a contract.

- Right, "I can't play anymore at this level and at the level that's acceptable to me."

And I think Derek Jeter will come to that conclusion and accept it when it happens, when he believes that has happened, and he doesn't believe that that's close yet.

At the end of the season, he might have a different viewpoint about it.

I suspect he's going to try to play two, three more years.

I think to me, the bigger issue is not, and of course, there's been a debate in New York about should he be dropped from the top of the order to the bottom?

And I think ultimately, he'll accept that with the same dignity and grace than Don Mattingly accepted when he was moved out of the three hole for Paul O'Neill and he said, "This should have happened weeks ago.

O'Neill's been the best hitter on his team for a while."

I think Jeter's going to handle that publicly very well.

When they ask him to move from shortstop to a different position, I think that's the day he says, "You know what, guys?

I'm going to call it a career."

I don't think he'll ever move off of shortstop.

- [Steve] Well, he didn't do it for Alex Rodriguez.

- They didn't ask him to do it.

They told- - Well, they also know, come on, respectfully, that wasn't even in play.

- [Ian] No, it wasn't.

- [Steve] They weren't going to ask him.

- And a lot of people argued, you know, if Rodriguez is the better shortstop, ask Derek to move- - [Steve] There's more range, there's more ground to cover, right?

- That's right.

And he was the better shortstop at that time, they said, "Our captain, we're not going to diminish him in any way, so we're just not going to ask Derek Jeter to do that.

We're going to make A-Rod do it.

He's the one who's going to have to make the sacrifice."

And that's what happened.

But I think that Derek Jeter could accept batting seventh, eighth, or ninth and still being a good, reliable shortstop who gives you all the intangibles- - [Steve] Right.

- Of winning.

But I don't think he can accept, "Hey, we need you now to bat ninth and play left field."

I don't think he'll do that.

- Last question.

The relationship between Derek Jeter and the Yankee fans is pretty amazing.

You know, our president here at WNET, Neal Shapiro, goes to a lot of games, loves Yankees.

And we've talked about this a lot.

I wonder whether the Yankee fans will ever boo Derek Jeter.

So he goes on a 0 for 25, just doesn't hit, doesn't hit and keep positions where the Yankees are in a position to score and he cost them games.

Will the Yankee fans ever boo Derek Jeter?

- They have already in 2004 when he was O for 32, they did boo him one night, if not two.

It wasn't long, it wasn't that loud, but- - [Steve] I'll ask it differently.

- Yeah.

- Sustainable booing, like the kind that we know A-Rod and a lot of other people have experienced, sustainable booing at Yankee Stadium.

- I think only if it gets to a point where they feel the fans do, they have no choice.

They have booed other icons in Yankee Stadium, obviously DiMaggio and Mantle.

- [Steve] Mantle, definitely.

- Right, so I think yes, but they're not going to go to the ballpark wanting to do it.

And I think it's only if his play has degenerated to a point where they are absolutely left with no choice.

I think that's the only time and place that Yankee fans will actually boo him consistently until he finally retires.

- The writer, the author is Ian O'Connor.

The name of the book is "The Captain:", It's a terrific book, folks.

Go out there and get it.

And whether you're a Yankee fan or not, you have to respect the work of Derek Jeter because he's an icon, not just for the Yankees, but for baseball.

Again.

I said, you don't have to be a Yankee fan to appreciate Munson.

What was he all about and why is it so tragic, at 32, he died in that plane crash?

- He was the first Yankee captain actually since Lou Gehrig who died at age 37.

Something about that position maybe.

But Gehrig had died in '41.

Joe McCarthy, his manager, said, "There'll never be another Yankee captain.

The position dies now with Lou."

Then in the mid seventies, George Steinbrenner said, "You know, we should consider having a captain."

And I was the only guy in the room that remembered the Joe McCarthy thing.

So.

- By the way, I did a disservice to you.

Before you go on with your story, tell folks how you know this stuff.

- Right.

I was the Yankee PR director all throughout Thurman's career.

- [Steve] 1968 you started?

- I started in '68, which was the year he was drafted.

My first job was answering Mickey Mantle's fan mail.

- [Steve] Ah, love that.

- So I grew up in the Yankee organization, and now I'm the PR director in my twenties.

And I say, "You know, Joe McCarthy said the position is retired with Lou Gehrig."

And Mr. Steinbrenner, to his everlasting credit says, "Well, if Joe McCarthy knew Thurman Munson, he'd know this is the right guy and the right time."

- Why was he the right guy to be the captain?

- Because he was a leader.

If the catcher is kind of a take charge guy, it's a natural fit.

He's facing everybody else, he's kind of commanding the action.

He's coddling the pitching staff, and oh, he was so good with the pitching staff.

He really could treat them each psychologically and intellectually, and individually.

So Munson becomes the captain in '76, wins the MVP award, and leads the Yankees back to the World Series after 12 dismal seasons.

- Marty, some of the most powerful aspects of the book about Thurman Munson, and do yourself a favor, run out and get it.

The publisher is?

- Double Day.

- Double day.

Great baseball name, right?

- Absolutely.

Abner Doubleday.

Here we go.

His childhood.

Forget about on the field right now.

His childhood, painful in a lot of ways.

What was the deal with Thurman Munson's father?

- Well, his father was the product of being raised in an orphanage, and who can attribute what he became to that?

But the dysfunctional family goes back at least two generations.

Thurman was the youngest of four.

The three siblings leave home.

- [Steve] What are we looking at there, Marty?

- We're looking at Dwayne, his older brother.

And Thurman is the younger - [Steve] Got it.

Sorry.

- And there were two older sisters as well.

And they all leave home as soon as they're finished with high school, leaving Thurman alone in this very challenging environment.

It was a loveless home, no support at all.

His athletic achievements in high school.

- His old man wasn't there for him?

- Wasn't there for him.

He was a long distance truck driver, gone all week.

Then he'd come back Friday night and start walloping the kids for misbehaving.

- So the kid's playing great ball.

Does he go there, and even if he doesn't see the game, does he tell him he's a good ball player?

- He doesn't really.

He doesn't coddle him.

He doesn't compliment him.

In fact, he's jealous of him, because he thinks he's a better ball player and he's stuck driving a truck all week, and should have been, - [Steve] He was angry at the kid.

He was angry and it never went away.

He was always jealous of Thurman's success.

- So what's so crazy here is Thurman Munson has this incredible playing career on the field, and is the captain.

We'll talk about Reggie Jackson as his fire relationship with Reggie, and stuff with Billy Martin.

But what strikes me is on August 2nd, 1979.

How does Thurman die?

And then we'll bring the father back into it.

- Thurman had become a great family man in his own right as an adult, sort of, you know, he was determined he was gonna break that cycle.

- [Steve] He was gonna be the father he never had.

- Exactly.

And to accomplish it in part, he learned to fly so that he could go home after ball games to Canton, Ohio and be with his family.

- [Steve] And Diana was with those kids.

- Yes.

And people didn't know this.

The players were driving home to Bergen County or Westchester County.

- [Steve] Sure.

He's flying.

- And he's flying out of Teterboro to go to Canton.

By '79 he's moved up to a jet.

It's his third plane.

It was too much plane for him.

My first reaction back then I remember was usually if you get a plane like this, you get a pilot with it.

- [Steve] Right.

Not Thurman.

- Not Thurman.

He did it himself, and he messed up.

There were pilot errors, serious pilot error made on that fateful Thursday in August of '79.

But his last actions were heroic in a sense because there were two passengers with him, friends, pilots themselves.

And he took that plane down in a field, and all three of them survived that crash landing.

And had they not hit a tree stump, and caused Thurman's paralysis, they all would've walked away from that plane.

But as it happened, the plane burst into flames.

The other two guys had to flee, leaving Thurman behind.

A terrible end for Thurman.

- What was the reaction on the part of the Yankee family?

- This was as difficult a day as Yankee fans, Yankee management, even media who he didn't talk to very often, it was as tough a day as baseball history had ever put on a franchise, let alone this hollowed storied franchise that was the, they were the defending world champions and he was the captain.

There were two games of particular note right after.

I mean, there was the Friday night game, the next day, where people remember misty rain, and tears, and Reggie Jackson crying in right field, and the empty home plate ceremonially, sort of like the riderless horse at the Kennedy funeral, John Kennedy.

And then three days later after the funeral, the heroic Bobby Mercer games, when he drives in all five runs for Thurman.

- [Steve] They were close.

- They were close.

And Bobby had just rejoined the team after five years in exile.

- What was happening with the short version, the tension between Reggie Jackson?

A superstar comes in, the article in which magazine?

- [Marty] "Sport."

- The drink, - The straw.

- The straw stirs the drink, you know.

There's Thurman Munson, team guy, I don't wanna make it overly simplistic, but he was about the team.

He was not about stats.

He was not about posing after he hit home run.

He was the opposite, right?

- Right.

- What was the deal between the two of them?

Oil and water?

- It was a clash of egos.

But Thurman's wasn't an ego that he had to stand on the top of a tallest building and say, "I'm the greatest."

- Right.

- He just wanted to be- - Reggie wanted the chocolate bar called, "Reggie."

Did Thurman want it?

- No.

Thurman could care less, but he didn't want to be disrespected.

- That's right.

- And when Reggie came in, and did this... Thurman was the biggest advocate for getting Reggie.

He wanted his bat behind him in the lineup.

But Reggie comes, and no sooner is he there than in spring training of '79, he does this stupid interview in "Sport Magazine" that says, "I'm the straw that stirs the drink."

- [Steve] I'm the guy.

- Thurman can only stir it bad.

He even goes so far as to name Thurman.

So suddenly Thurman's got 23 new best friends, 'cause- - [Steve] Yes.

- Everybody on the team gravitated towards Thurman.

- Did Reggie understand why it was so stupid what he did, and how he disrespected Thurman Munson?

- He probably did.

But the only thing he ever said was he was misquoted, and he didn't expect that those statements would be used in the story.

- Marty lemme do this, 'cause you know the media business better than I do.

We never do service, the proper service to a book like this.

The book is called, "Munson: The Life and Death of a Yankee Captain."

A minute Left.

What's the legacy that Thurman Munson leaves?

- He's old school.

I mean, it wasn't that many years ago, but yet he played the game hard and true.

He respected the game.

He didn't talk to the media, but the fans saw around that, and they saw the way he played the game, and they loved him.

- [Steve] They still love him, right?

- Yeah.

They still love him.

His picture goes up on the scoreboard, they go crazy.

- They go crazy.

I remember at The Old Timers Day the other day recently, Diana Munson, his wife, came out with Bobby Mercer's wife.

- [Marty] Yes.

- Threw the first pitch out.

- [Marty] Yeah.

- Outta respect to, I promised I'd do this.

I hate to end on a negative.

At his funeral, tragic death, his father.

Go ahead.

- The father, the siblings didn't even know if he was dead or alive.

He shows up from Arizona at the funeral, goes to the cemetery, walks up to the burial site and says, "You thought you were too big for this world, huh?

Well look who's still standing, you S.O.B."

- It’s just one of the many stories in this very powerful book Do yourself a favor, go out and read it, and Marty I want to thank you for all you’ve done over these years.

Neal, I know that's a tragic and very sad ending, listening to Marty Appel.

By the way, check out "Pinstripe Empire."

"Pinstripe Empire," Marty Appel, foreword by Yogi Berra and Bernie Williams.

Great book on the history of the Yankees.

It was sad to listen to that about Thurman Munson's father, a part of who these guys were, their lives.

- I think it's a reminder that they're not just baseball players, right?

They're human beings.

And the more you dig into them, you realize how much their past influenced who they were and oftentimes, the things they had overcome, whether it shaped them to be great leaders or whether there were supportive parents like Derek Jeter had, or the opposite, what Munson had.

And yet, part of what makes this game so interesting is the way in which people come together.

And part of what makes baseball fun when it works is to see a team work together and to say, you know, "We're gonna succeed because we believe in this larger thing.

We're gonna appreciate each other's talents."

I think that's part of what makes baseball so much fun.

- The other thing about baseball is Neal's been to the stadium countless times and he also has taken his sons there.

I have forced my sons and our daughter, Olivia, to go as well.

Our kids are going to be Yankee fan... Neal, I don't... Do we make them Yankee fans?

- You know what?

I remember at one point my youngest son, I can't remember how old he was, but I was watching a game.

He said, "Dad, can I watch the game with you?"

And I thought, oh my God, this is so great.

- He came to you?

- Yeah, he said, "Can I watch the game with you?"

I thought, oh my God, this is gonna be so great.

So, I've tried to lead by example.

Like everything, you should make your own decisions, but by the way, aren't the Yankees great?

- And again, Neal says this all the time, it's so many conversations we've had, that this is about more than baseball.

And again, you don't have to be a Yankee fan to appreciate.

And my final question to you, Neal, to tee this up, is Yankee culture, Yankee history is also about our country's history and us as a people, or am I making too much of that?

- No, I think in every way.

In every ways from the downsides, we talked about how late they were to get players of color.

And the positive ways about what it means about a culture which is about succeeding and in which you can unify people and bring people together, at a time when as we record this, our country, I think has some sharp divisions.

There's something great about 50,000 people can be there and we can be all cheering for one thing.

We can get away and say, "You know what?

We can surround one thing that makes us feel like we have something in common."

And I think baseball is also that generational link where a father can talk to a son and talk to their sons and share what they saw.

You know, one day if I have grandsons, I'll be boring them with stories about Derek Jeter, right?

But I think that's part of what we hand down.

- Yeah, hey Neal, I cannot thank you enough for giving us this time all this week on Yankee Week and also being very engaged and involved in making this happen.

Thank you, Neal.

- Been my pleasure.

Thank you.

- You got it, from Neal Shapiro and myself.

And I keep saying for Yankee fans, it's for fans of baseball, fans of sports, and fans of why sports matter and why the Yankees matter.

From Neal and myself and our entire team, cannot thank you enough for watching us all this week on Yankee Week here on "One-on-One."

Go Yankees.

There's always next year.

- [Narrator] One-On-One with Steve Adubato is a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

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