Jim Welch> In Allendale County, South Carolina, not far from the banks of the Savannah River, a team of archeologists and volunteers are working together in search of more evidence of early South Carolinians.

Stay with us.

Following the documentary for a live discussion with two of the country's leading archeologists as they talk about the Topper site and Ice Age humans in South Carolina.

This is a story that could rewrite someday the textbooks on American history.

They'll answer your questions at home and the questions of those of you here in the studio audience.

So watch with us now.

They Were Here: Ice Age Humans In South Carolina .

Announcer> Broadcast of They Were Here is made possible by a generous grant from Clariant Corporation.

Clariant is a global leader in making specialty chemicals for products ranging from cosmetics to clothing, computers to cars and everything in between.

With facilities in Carlisle, Elgin, Martin and Rock Hill.

Clariant, Exactly your chemistry.

♪ ♪ ♪ (rocks banging together) Jim> Scientists in the last decade have made startling discoveries indicating that Ice Age humans were in the Western Hemisphere some 15 to 20,000 years ago.

♪ There are currently four principal sites that are being studied, including one in South America and three in the Eastern United States.

One of these is located on the Savannah River in Allendale County, South Carolina.

(excavators chatting) Worker> ...Down here in the pit.

Jim> In 1998, archeologists from the Institute of Archeology and Anthropology at the University of South Carolina made a surprising discovery.

Stone tools were found several feet below the surface, suggesting that Ice Age humans were present in South Carolina.

Some 3 to 4000 years earlier than previously thought.

This discovery is expected to rewrite the textbooks of American archeology.

Worker> See, now, this is what they're after.

That's still after thousands of years.

That's still pretty good- Worker 2> -material Worker> ...See that.

Jim> The Topper site is one of the three most important sites in the United States that is yielding evidence that ancient humans were here during the last ice age.

For the past five years, scientists and archeologists from leading universities have worked with graduate students and volunteers, unraveling the mysteries of early man in North America.

Dr. Goodyear> Well, we've known about the Topper site since 1981, when a local resident named David Topper showed us the site.

At that time, we were looking for prehistoric chert quarries.

Chert is an impure form of flint, that prehistoric peoples, highly prized for the making of their ancient tools.

We had done a few digs here in recent years, in previous years, but we'd always stopped at what we call the Clovis level, which is about three feet down.

In 1998 though, the floods of the Savannah River made us move off the bottom lands where we normally like to work, and we were forced to come here.

In the meantime, there have been discoveries made both in South America and the eastern seaboard, that indicated that humans probably were in this hemisphere 2 or 3000 years earlier.

And it's that time I thought about the Topper site might be a great place to try to find, earlier implements deeper in the ground.

So we did try to go deeper.

And sure enough, within a few days, we were finding artifacts that we'd never seen before.

A full meter below the Clovis culture.

Jim> Within days of this discovery, the story captured national and international media attention and heightened the controversy that surrounds the issue of when and how human beings first came into our hemisphere.

Dr. Goodyear> Forty.

You got the exact depth.

<Got it> Jim> The Allendale Paleo-Indian Expedition at the University of South Carolina is a long term excavation program searching for evidence of the earliest humans.

It is a cooperative effort with Clariant Corporation, owners of the Topper site.

(rocks banging) The focus has been on the chert quarries of Allendale County, because they have historically yielded many stone tools.

Dr. Goodyear> To do an excavation, we use a grid system it's very carefully laid out using a surveyor's transit and a metric tape.

We wish to recover all the artifacts in a spatially controlled manner.

Particularly interested in how deep things are, because the deeper in the ground you go, the older they are.

So depth below ground is time to the archeologist.

Worker> Two centimeter high.

<Okay> Dr. Goodyear> These soils are carefully screened over wire mesh.

Everything that, stays in the screen is recovered and bagged up separately.

Depending on what we're digging and the significance of it, we may use a shovel very carefully.

Often we use a trowel, and sometimes we need to use the brush.

♪ Jim> One of the most important aspects of the Allendale expedition is the role of volunteers who participate in virtually all aspects of the field and lab work.

It would be impossible to carry out an excavation of this magnitude without volunteers doing much of the necessary work.

Henry> The archeological digs are basically done in order to control the location on a grid system.

That then when one finds an artifact, one can measure the distance from the north line and the east line, and then one measures down so that one can determine, the location in three dimensions where that object was found.

Ann> The closer you are to the actual location of the original burial of the artifact, the better the tracing, the better the provenance of the artifact.

So that's one of the first things they teach you.

(indiscernible talking) Elizabeth A.> Anything you find in that screen, you put into a bag, which is bagged with a number and all of that, it goes back up to the campsite.

It gets washed.

It gets put in the sun, look at it again and it gets bagged again and goes back to, University of South Carolina to be checked out one more time.

Dr. Goodyear> As you go down in the ground, you go back in time.

There are really two stories of human history here at Topper.

In the upper meter or about the upper three, first three feet, there are artifacts from virtually every prehistoric culture known in South Carolina, all the way back to the Clovis culture 13,000 years ago.

Just below that layer is an old red soil that the geologists think may have taken 2 to 4000 years to form.

This soil separates the Clovis culture above from the ice age pre Clovis artifacts down below, which can be seen in the white soil.

This white soil came in during the Ice Age when the Savannah River flooded this ancient terrace.

♪ These microlithic Pre-Clovis tools are probably anywhere between 17,000 and 20,000 years old.

This is based on a soil dating technique known as OSL.

Jim> Included in the array of tools and stone artifacts found by Doctor Goodyear and his team, are scrapers probably used for processing animal skins.

Chisels or Burins used for cutting and engraving wood and bone.

Knives, thin etched flakes for slicing soft materials.

And chopping implements for heavy duty cutting.

These implements are typically found with clusters of fractured chert.

These concentrations appear to be working areas where natural cobbles of chert were smashed and formed into tools.

Dr. Goodyear> Look at the retouching.

Worker> Oh, wow.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Dr. Goodyear> It's several Worker> All the way across.

Dr. Goodyear> That would be an outstanding spokeshave.

Look at this.

Worker> And what about over here?

Did they do anything over here?

Dr. Goodyear> Yeah.

And, you know, I think these things are or, you know, could be functional, you know, as handheld cleavers and choppers.

But when you... when you see that many taken off in a row, you know, someone has shaped that edge.

That's good.

I had my eye on that since yesterday.

Okay, now I got to get it back right.

Jim> In order to better understand how these ancient implements were made and used.

Some simple experiments were conducted.

Dr. Goodyear> I thought we needed some help in understanding how these stone tools were created.

So I contacted Steve Watts of the Schiele Museum and Scott Jones of Prehistoric Media.

They are experts in primitive technology.

We found that it was relatively easy to crack open the chert boulders by smashing.

This produce flakes that could be converted into the microlithic tools.

(indistinct chatting) Scott> And the great thing about this sort of technology is that it's pretty, it's pretty nonspecific.

We're producing big chunky cores and flakes here, but I think one of the end results of it Dr. Goodyear> Not seeing any bumps of percussion.

Scott> One of the neat things about this sort of technology is that while it's very simple in the execution, the end result with bend-break burins and other types of tools, is they are themselves relatively specialized.

Dr. Goodyear> The most common Pre-Clovis implement is a stone chisel made by snapping the edges to create a sharp tip.

Steve> You see there is your radial break > that's from hitting in the center.

Dr. Goodyear> These burin-like pieces can be handheld or hafted in simple handles.

They're excellent for working wood and antler.

(scratching sounds) Also, the large cobbles make simple but effective chopping implements, otherwise known as the "Topper chopper."

> Seeing the real artifacts from the site and, and then sort of reconciling those to the, the type of technology we're applying here.

I'm very happy with the results in that, we're producing materials that are very reasonably close to the, the types of tools from the Pre-Clovis levels of the site.

Steve> Technologically, it's simple.

We're using basic, simple stone working techniques, but that says nothing about the culture.

Simple tools can perform very sophisticated tasks.

And you need these tools for food, shelter, clothing, whatever else the people are doing.

Dr. Goodyear> That sort of explains- Jim> In order to establish the existence of a Pre-Clovis site, not only must artifacts be found, but also they must be placed in their proper geological layers and dated.

Dr. Goodyear> -called crenelated fractures.

Jim> Top scientists from across the country have joined the team to help with the process of documentation.

These scientists include Doctor Tom Stafford, nationally known expert on dating and stratigraphy, Stafford Laboratories, Boulder, Colorado.

Doctor John Foss, soil scientist, University of Tennessee.

Doctor Mike Waters, Geoarcheologist, Texas A and M University.

And Doctor Stephen Foreman, Geochronologist, University of Illinois, Chicago.

They are digging additional trenches near the main pit to conduct a more comprehensive investigation of the geology of Topper in order to study the evolution of the ancient landscape.

Dr. Waters> The reason that we cut, trenches like this is to study the stratigraphy at the site, which is the layering of sediments and soils.

You know, at the archeological site here.

And by doing that, you can place the archeological material within its proper context and also get a history of how the landscape changed and what kind of landscape these people occupied.

Dr. Stafford> We're not quite sure, but approximately this horizon here at the moment looks like it's about, about 13,000 calendar years old.

> Where the artifacts are?

Dr. Stafford> With the artifacts.

So this is Clovis, which is also 11,000 radiocarbon years.

And then if it takes a couple three as John Foss said, a couple 3, 4000 to form this, then...

So this is 13,000 plus another couple, three, four.

So let's say 13 plus three.

So that's 16,000.

So down in here it might be 16,000 to 20,000 years old.

Dr. Foss> Usually by looking at the soil morphology and then supplementing this with laboratory analysis like particle size and chemistry, we're able to come pretty close to the general age of the soils.

(generator starting and running) Jim> The exploration at Topper continues with careful study and analysis of the artifacts and geology.

This includes the work of Doctor Doug Williams and his colleagues at the University of South Carolina Department of Geology and Coastal Carolina University, who are reconstructing the Ice Age Savannah River Valley with its ancient climate and forest.

(researchers chatting) Dr. Goodyear> You know there is mica in this.

> Mhm, sure is.

> So we can't... Dr. Goodyear> So maybe the rivers and pebbles...

This could be you know, this could be 80,000, this could be 40,000.

I think at this point we have strong archeological evidence to show that people were at the Topper site during the Ice Age.

This is based on solid geological analysis, and we do have dates to support that.

But Topper is not the end, it's the beginning.

There are many more questions to be answered here, and we need to be moving out into the southeast and finding other examples of Pre-Clovis sites.

♪ Jim> The heart and soul of the Allendale expedition lies in the volunteers who give both time and money.

(indistinct talking) Ann> It's all about discovery and adventure.

And so there's a mix of excitement, the thrill of discovery mixed with the meticulous, detail that's necessary to be able to provenance the artifact that you find.

And there's so much to learn about how those tools were made.

Terry> Al Goodyear attracts a good cross-section of people, you know, old and young, this, that and the other from various areas and from different, areas of life and disciplines, if you will, and it's a, a fun mixture.

Elizabeth S.> People who are, not as old as I am, but you know are getting up in age who are looking for something to do, you know, something different to do.

And, when I mentioned, that I'm doing archeology you know there... "Oh, I'll have to try that, I'd like to, where is that you go, you know, it's in America."

(laughter) Yeah, it's in Allendale, South Carolina.

And they'll come from the other states, and they'll come spend a week and day and go back and say, "you know, what a great experience I had up there."

Alaina> It's wonderful.

Last year when I participated on the dig, I found a Taylor Point, which is about 10,000 years old, and it was so amazing to just think that I was the first person to touch that in 10,000 years.

Betty> This is a really important site so that, a lot of people, all of their lives wanted to work in an important area of archeology.

And this is important, very important.

So, they come because they had a big site.

This is an important site, and it's right here in South Carolina.

Jim> Volunteers from all over the country register for a weeklong commitment, which involves excavation and lab work.

In addition to the opportunity to work alongside nationally recognized scientists, they are provided with camping facilities, meals and educational programs.

(sticks briskly rubbing) ♪ Scott> There you go, one more time.

(applause) Dr. Goodyear> And this would be East 136.30 meters.

Jim> Doctor Goodyear and his staff make an effort to work with the volunteers and make them part of the team.

Dr. Goodyear> 136.7 meters.

Now, John, you found this didn't you John?

Dr. Foss> Yes I Did.

Dr. Goodyear> Very good.

This is only the second quartz mala point we found here.

And this is, does not grow here.

Now the chert grows here.

So this is a, this is an exotic to this site.

So very good, very good.

We're glad, I'm glad you were so careful in the way you excavated that you found this just like it was left there.

<Right> Good work.

Terry> He is very good at developing teamwork.

And that's, that's a skill.

That's a joy.

He's a joy to work with, and I think that's why so many people come back.

Ann> He's a great teacher, very patient.

The staff are knowledgeable.

Many of them lithics experts themselves patient with the volunteers and, and I don't know how they do it.

(laughter) They seem to put up with us pretty well though.

David> Archeologists tend to be very nice people.

They're very interested in what's going on around them.

They're very helpful.

If I express any interest at all in anything, they tell me more than I need to know about it.

It's just an it's a different atmosphere than I have during the day.

When I'm at work in Columbia.

(alarm clock beeping) ♪ Alaina> This is my first time camping.

We stayed in a hotel last year, but this year, it's kind of fun just to be out with nature.

And I think that by camping, you, you're able to spend more time with the other people that are participating.

Camper> Top of the morning.

Elizabeth A.> It doesn't matter if you come and don't know a soul because quickly, with a small group of maybe, you know, 20 regulars and a few people coming in different days, you get to know each other.

We live in a, I live in a tent on the campus.

Pitched my own tent, a one man tent.

That was my biggest worry the first year I came that I'd make a fool of myself.

But I did fine.

(laughter) And, most people stay on the, on the campsite, and you fix your breakfast together.

Camper> Ready to go.

You ready to go?

Camper 2> Yeah, let's go.

Camper> Let's get this thing on the way.

♪ ♪ > People come from diverse backgrounds, different parts of the country.

They bring different things to the point.

Elizabeth A.> I've dug a lot of places, but I'm definitely an amateur.

And this is one important field that amateurs are welcome.

And if you like, you can contribute and it's a lot of fun.

♪ ♪ Volunteer> We are here.

♪ Volunteer 2> We do this to attract the insects.

Volunteer 3> Feel like I'm in the airport.

Volunteer 2> We collect... > Chemicals are good for you.

♪ ♪ David> I try to bring friends with me and introduce them to what's going on in archeology.

We're having a great time.

Dr. Goodyear> Barbecue, soils... Cameraman> What are you cooking for dinner?

Dr. Goodyear> Turkey, a 17 pound turkey.

I caught him in Piggly Wiggly with my wallet.

Alania> The food is great.

♪ (indistinct chatter) ♪ Dr. Goodyear> You know, you make me want to shout.

♪ > We get to see the stratigraphy on your hand... ♪ Dr. Stafford> That's the easiest way...

So that's why this is even older from what we've done the last week.

Why were we finding it in here.

♪ Dr. Goodyear> We found in the dollar store... (laughter) We got T-shirts that say rocket scientist.

(laughter) (applause) ♪ Let's eat.

♪ (laughter and chatter) ♪ Worker> Just doesn't get any better than this.

♪ ♪ ♪ Jim> The Topper site discovery is the latest example illustrating the controversy that exists in American archeology today.

It raises critical questions concerning when and how did man first arrive in the Western Hemisphere.

> I think that when we, if we ever know the answer, it's going to be so complex it'll scare us.

There are definitely, from my point of view, five waves.

And each of those waves probably had... branches.

Dr. Goodyear> Given the recent archeological discoveries in the Western Hemisphere, we need to be searching for more Pleistocene sites.

Topper, is the dawn of a new chapter in what was already a pretty good book.

Dr. Stanford> Yeah, it's a very important and exciting find.

> Well, for the last 50 years, there's been generations of archeologists who have looked at this subject without, without an answer and the paradigm, people expect to find what they've already found before.

And here we're finding something different.

And so good science says to keep an open mind and evaluate what you find afterwards, instead of, have some preconceived notion of what you're going to find.

Alania> I just think it's really neat.

I love history, so I really enjoy finding out about the past.

And, this is really neat because you get to see who is here.

You know, way before anyone thought there were humans living on this continent.

> When you look at that stuff that comes out of the ground, every piece is an artifact.

And what makes it so nice is that, once you get it out there, you're the first person who has touched that thing, who has seen it for 15,000, 16,000, 17,000, up to 26,000 years ago.

You know, that's and that's just amazes me.

And it's just like a kid in a candy store.

I just don't know which way to turn next time.

It just thrills me to do that.

Emily> This, it just like, it blows you away.

It really does.

To hold something that old in your hand.

It's like you don't even know that person, but you feel like you do when you hold their tools.

It's like they put their time and effort into making those things and using them.

And it's, it's just awesome.

I love it.

Steve> Yeah, there were people there making these tools out of this chert.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ > I certainly plan to come back next year.

If Dr. Goodyear will have us back.

Announcer> This program was made possible by a generous grant from Clariant Corporation, a global leader in making specialty chemicals for products ranging from cosmetics to clothing, computers to cars and everything in between, with facilities in Carlisle, Elgin, Martin and Rock Hill.

Clariant, exactly your chemistry.

♪ To purchase a copy of this program, please call 1-800-553-7752 or write to the address on your screen.

Major credit cards accepted.

♪ (applause) Jim> Wow, what a story and many of the principals are right here, live in the studio tonight.

And for those of you at home that have questions, we will be opening the phone lines in, in a little bit and I'll give you the numbers.

So be thinking of some things you want to ask our principals.

Two of the country's top archeologists, others are in the audience.

But here is Doctor Al Goodyear, who worked on the site from the very early days and, Doctor Dennis Stanford who has for many years been published for his work in Paleo-Indian studies with the Smithsonian Institution.

So it's, truly a joy to work on such a project, because Al, it's good science and it's a good marriage between the volunteers from all over the corporate industry, Clariant people and, and top archeologists, you have to be proud.

Dr. Goodyear> We're very pleased.

And it's just a real joy to see all these different groups come together and contribute what they can.

And what has come out of this is just really amazing.

So it's not the work of one person or even one organization, but it's really, a great team effort.

And Allendale, South Carolina is now being talked about around the world, along with sites in Virginia and Pennsylvania.

And I guess Doctor Stanford, one of the earliest was in Chile, which has been written around, written about for a long time.

Dr. Stanford> Yeah, the, idea about the origins of people in North America, or the Americas in general really changed in the last five years and it's very exciting.

It looks like it's much more complicated.

And like you say, we have sites in Chile and several here on the, east coast of North America, including Topper, which is really quite exciting.

Jim> What attracted you to research into the earliest Americans in the very beginning, and to your work with Smithsonian and eventually to the work at Allendale?

Dr. Stanford> Well, I grew up in Wyoming, and, as a young man, I'd go out, in the countryside looking for rocks, and eventually I found some arrowheads, and I thought these were pretty neat.

And I started to collect them and after a while, I began to wonder, what do you do with this box of arrowheads?

And I want to know what they mean.

And so, eventually I got to college and started, on, on a professional career so I could understand what they mean.

And it's been a very, very exciting way to spend my life.

Jim> And your work has taken you around the world.

Now, you know, Dr. Stanford as Dr. Goodyear has brought in top archeologists in different disciplines.

And I think that's what makes this such good science is the different professional, features of archeology brought to one site.

And you've experienced some of that in your work down there.

I know you've met many of the fellows.

Dr. Stanford> Yeah, it's a truly it's an interdisciplinary program.

And that's what we have to do in archeology today.

We have to know the environment.

We have to know the geology.

We have to know how the artifacts were deposited, whether they're in their primary context as the, people made them, dropped them, or have they been redeposited.

And this requires bringing together a whole team of interdisciplinary scholars.

And Al has done an excellent job bringing in the best people.

Jim> And Al I think listening to the volunteers, you must be, fun to work with, along with the, I mean, you've got the "Topper Chopper" here.

That's not exactly a scientific term.

What's the Latin term for "Topper Chopper?"

Dr. Goodyear> I got to look that up.

It's yet to be defined.

Jim> You do have artifacts... Now these, these here in front are from the Topper site.

Dr. Goodyear> Correct, now these represent approximately, the last 13,000 years.

Jim> We could bring a camera in and get, some of these.

I know Dr. Stanford brought artifacts from other places, but these are physically from different levels.

Dr. Goodyear> Correct.

These are all from the Topper site, and these are from the different layers, and they represent the last, approximate 13,000 years of human occupation here.

And this was the textbook story as you see it in here.

And then 1998, we excavated deeper and began to find different artifacts, artifacts that took me a while to figure out just exactly what they were.

But we think we've got them figured out now, and they're subtle, small- Jim> Before you go to the one in your hand.

Let's talk about this.

Now, that's a scraper.

Dr. Goodyear> That'd be a long prismatic blade.

Jim> From the site?

Dr. Goodyear> Yes.

And Doctor Stanford is looking at those today.

They're very typical of the Clovis culture, whether you're in Wyoming, California or South Carolina.

So we recognize that pretty readily.

Jim> And these, these this is Allendale chert- Dr. Goodyear> Exactly.

That's the raw material that they were so interested in.

Jim> And in your hand?

Dr. Goodyear> And these were, this is- Jim> Hold it steady- Dr. Goodyear> Right.

These are some, Bend-break tools, we call them.

A little simple chisels, that, illustrate what the, the Pre-Clovis people were so interested in using, probably to work antler and bone and wood like you saw in the film.

And probably many of these were held in, in, hafts like that.

You could exert quite a bit of power, with a strong handle like that, you could see how the antler was being worked, by Scott Jones.

So we don't have the wood, the organic matter preserved, obviously, but we have many, many, stone tools.

Stone tools, seem to last forever, which is a good thing for archeologists.

Jim> We saw in the video as well, the use of a large block of chert.

<Right> Which can actually cut a tree.

Dr. Goodyear> Exactly.

And later people, used these as well.

Just simple woodworking, implements.

They would get a sharp edge and, bevel it.

And you saw how it went through that sapling in the video.

So, this is typical of a Pre-Clovis core and a simple chopping implement.

And we have lots of these in the industrial area.

Jim> So, we're looking at very primitive technology here.

Doctor Stanford you have examples of almost works of art.

And yet talking about the possible dating of this material versus these, are they along the same thousands of years?

Dr. Stanford> Absolutely Jim.

What I have here and I'd like to show the audience is, we've thought that, all native North Americans originally came from Northeast Asia.

And so we've done a lot of work in Northeast Asia.

And we now, thanks to the political situation, we've been able to do a lot more work.

And we have come to realize that the archeology of that area is based on micro blade, technology, which are these little slivers of, flint which are then inserted into a piece of bone like this one.

So you set a whole series in and then these are used for their projectile points.

And that's a whole different philosophy in weapon tip manufacturing than the Clovis that Doctor Goodyear was mentioning a few minutes ago, which is a- a bifacial projectile point.

Jim> Hold that steady... that's a beautiful piece of work.

Dr. Stanford> It's flaked on both sides, which is where we get the term bifacial.

And characteristically, the Clovis point has a flute or a flake taken off of either side from the base.

And we always thought that when we had a chance to get to Siberia, we would find these.

And that's not the case.

<No> This material goes back this particular specimen is from a site called Mal'ta in Siberia.

And it dates about 28,000 years old.

So when we couldn't find it, the bifacial technology in Siberia, we began to look elsewhere.

And one of the, the, areas that we looked was in northern Spain and, southwestern France.

And lo and behold, we started finding bifacial projectile points that look very much like our Clovis point, but they date 16,000 years old, (indistinct talking) Much older than Clovis, but not much older than Topper or Cactus Hill, which is another site in Virginia which is dated at 15,900.

And here's one of the projectile points from that site.

And you'll notice the technological similarities, between these two specimens and, that, along with a number of other technological similarities, convinced myself and my colleague Bruce Bradley that we really needed to look in Spain.

Jim> It is exploding paradigms all around the world, Dr. Stanford> If we're right.

And what's exciting, is this requires boat travel.

And we know that people were on the ocean in boats 60,000 years ago, they got, a lot of people were getting into Indonesia and Australia, and we're talking 20,000, 16,000 well that's 40,000 years of research and development.

And I'm quite sure that that technology spread around the world.

Now, if we wrap ourselves around that idea, it means that oceans are no longer barriers.

Rivers are no longer barriers.

They are highways.

And that's going to change, I think, the entire way we view pre-history of the whole world.

Jim> Well, we're so used to seeing sketches and, illustrations of these Bering Strait across landbridge, heavy animal skins to keep warm.

Hunters with the clubs and spears after the wooly mammoth.

And now you're saying maybe by boat fishermen came down the coast, North Atlantic?

Dr. Stanford> Well, we sort of have what I call the "Alley Oop" comic strip mentality of what our ancestors were like.

And that's not true at all.

They were modern human beings.

These people... made, waterproof clothing.

They had art, they had burial practices.

They were totally as modern and as home in their environment as we are in ours.

Jim> Al it's been, Dr. Goodyear it's been great to watch the work being done at, on the Clariant site along the Savannah.

And these pieces, are wonderful, but you've found some, fluted pieces down there that- Dr. Goodyear> Correct.

We found a...

Exactly, we found a Clovis point this year, right where it should have been.

And, sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.

We were digging a hole for one reason, and all of a sudden, we, came upon all this Clovis material, which is a real delight to find.

And we had found elements of it before, but we found a very rich Clovis occupation this year.

Jim> But when you find, Burins and scrapers and tools that, that close, the microscopic examination shows possibly man is used in some cases.

One scientist has said this, this was made by man and used by man.

And you're figuring, it does date to 16,000 to 18,000 years.

Dr. Goodyear> That would be a minimal date based on the OSL dating, and that would be the layer above the Pre-Clovis.

So as Doctor Stafford said in the film, they could be 16 to 20,000 years old.

We hope to go back this year and actually do something called thermoluminescence dating of a burned piece of flint or chert down in the old riverbed.

And that would be really a breakthrough, we could discern a specific date to the culture.

Jim> So at first you had the, carbon dating and then you had OSL, and now you've got, thermal.

Dr. Goodyear> The thermal, TL has been around a while.

But the OSL, the soil dating is the new thing.

And that's what allowed us to have a dating breakthrough at Topper.

Jim> Well, we want to talk to, a few of the folks in the audience.

In fact, some have gathered here tonight that, and let me go ahead and tell you at home to write down, the phone numbers 2-5-2-1-1-3-6 here in Columbia and statewide, toll free.

The number to call is 1-800-9-7-2-3-8-8-1.

And I want to come back and talk to you more.

In fact, before I go out to talk to, to Dr. Rippeteau, Head of Archeology here at the institute, to tell me about this piece, Dennis, it's the, it's, it's a darker chert.

Dr. Stanford> This one.

Jim> Yeah, like a flint material.

Much different from the Allendale chert, of course.

Where is that from?

Dr. Stanford> This particular specimen is, from Idaho.

A site called the Simon site, and it's Clovis.

It's the same age as the level directly above- <12,000> -yeah, above, above the Topper material.

Dr. Goodyear> The young stuff.

Jim> The young stuff right?

The young stuff.

Dr. Stanford> What's really exciting to, to Doctor Bradley and myself is the technique that was used to manufacture this is very, very specific.

We call it outre-passe, say or transverse flaking.

And there's only two culture groups in the world that used this technique, the Clovis people and the Solutrean people that we're looking at in southeastern Europe.

Jim> So it has to be, wonderful for you to be able to travel the world and talk to folks like Doctor Goodyear and the other archeologists around, and to see the the collections that you're pulling together.

And we'll be back to talk more about that.

I wanted to talk to, but I do need my hand mic, because I want to go talk to a couple of folks out here.

And again, the folks at home.

You're welcome to call in your questions, and in a few minutes, we'll be taking those calls.

If I could, Doctor Rippeteau, Director of the University of South Carolina Institute of Archeology and Anthropology, what are your feelings Dr. Rippeteau, relative to the work of your colleagues down at Allendale?

Dr. Rippeteau> Well, it's a great thing to see them and have success after a long period of, effort.

You've seen several times and commented about how important volunteerism is, to these endeavors.

The volunteerism not only of the people doing it, joining Doctor Goodyear for the excavations, but those who make it financially possible.

And then the corporate volunteerism, like the CEO of Clariant, who has given us permission, and the people at the plant who have supported us.

I also would like to point out that the video so well shows the social environment in which, the science is being done.

And I'd like to just point out, for all the people that are thinking of going into archeology or science connected as we are with the University of South Carolina and being a research organization, that in addition to all the barbecue and all the great stuff is, is the rigorous long term give and take of the top scientists arguing about this stuff, not knowing the answers, but knowing it's new and it's different.

I just, I think one of my overwhelming feelings of joy in seeing this after the volunteerism, is that this is the way science should be done, whether the exact end is what we think it will be now.

Jim> And there are many questions yet to be answered.

I know more work will be done at the Clariant site.

And Kenneth Golder, President and CEO, you have to be proud of...

I know your staff down there has been so good working with the archeologists.

Your feelings are about the work.

Kenneth> Well, Jim, we're very proud to, certainly bring these folks onto our site.

And, you mentioned good science many times in your introduction tonight, and that's really at the heart of what Clariant is all about.

So it's been a very natural partnership for us.

And, it's just been a joy having them there.

Our employees are extremely excited, when the digs occur and, I bring, or we bring certainly hundreds of guests a year to the Martin site and they are always anxious to come and see the Topper site.

And it's one of our highlights of our visits.

Jim> And I know it means a lot to, to archeology to have you speak on behalf.

Hopefully other corporations around the country, around the world will allow this same partnership between academic volunteers, civilians and industry.

Kenneth> I certainly hope so.

It's a natural.

Jim> And Dean Joan Stewart, the College of Liberal Arts.

Is this bringing the right kind of attention to the University of South Carolina?

Dr. Stewart> Well, I speak, of course, as the, as someone who is very much interested in liberal arts education.

And for me, what is exciting about what's happening at Allendale is that it allows us, to understand better not only the process of discovery, which is a very work intensive process, but also, and perhaps even more so, the nature of scientific inquiry the way in which scientific data are interpreted and debated.

And that is exactly what we are interested in, in sustaining.

Jim> Are you going to try to get down to the site in the coming year?

Dr. Stewart> I have been to the site and I have dirtied my hands.

Jim> Great, great.

Well, it's... (laughter) it's a good reason to get your hands in the dirt down there.

If any of you folks, audience here, I know some of you have worked on site, and you've asked Doctor Goodyear all the questions, down there on site.

But if for some of you, meeting Doctor Goodyear for the first time and Doctor Stanford have a question, by all means, raise your hand and I'll get to you.

And let me again tell the folks at home the number in Columbia.

If you have a question for Doctor Stanford or Doctor Goodyear, 2-5-2-1-1-3-6 in Columbia and toll free statewide 1-800-9-7-2-3-8-8-1.

One call on the line.

Yes.

Go ahead.

Yes.

Go ahead please, with your question or comment.

Caller> Do you think we will have another ice age?

Jim> Well, my goodness.

Doctor Stanford, it's been a long time coming.

(laughter) Thank you for that question.

And I'm glad you're watching too, Doctor Stanford, you've been around the ice a lot up in the North, I know.

Dr. Stanford> Well, unfortunately, today that ice is melting fairly rapidly.

And we're in what we call an interstadial.

But I suspect that someday in the future, we won't see it but there will be another ice age.

Unless, of course, we put so much carbon dioxide in the air that it changes the whole environment.

Jim> Well, one of the... one of the professors that has been working on the Allendale site was trying to tell us, Dr. Goodyear what the climate would have been like.

And the forest was like through the studies that he was doing.

Also... Dr. Goodyear> Right.

That was the work of Doctor Stephen Jackson, the University of Wyoming.

He's interested in what kind of plants grew around here, let's say, 20,000 years ago.

And we do know from pollen studies there were more pine trees during the Ice Age and less hardwood trees, called boreal forest.

It was colder, but it wasn't like up North colder, colder is relative.

It was colder and drier.

So it still would have been a probably a better place to live down here in the southern states.

than let's say the Midwest.

And for the same reason, people are moving into Jacksonville, Miami and Hilton Head.

They've been doing it for about 20,000 years, I'd like to think.

And all for the right reasons.

And some of them have come to South Carolina.

Jim> I want to thank, Bill Hartford for his work down there.

I've been down there many times.

Bill is site manager at the Clariant.

Bill it's such a joy to go down there.

Does it surprise you, the volunteers coming from all over the country to, to your place?

Your's and, Kenneth Golder's place.

Down there in the Lowcountry.

Bill> Well, every year it just seems to grow and grow and grow.

And really, I have to, really take my hat off to Al Goodyear.

He brings great people to the site.

They come from all over the United States and even across the globe.

And every year they are more excited, every year than they were the year before.

And I think that again, the hat off to the University of South Carolina and Al Goodyear.

You do a great job.

Jim> Thank you, thank you.

And also, it's, it's the science.

And by the way, I'm ready for phone calls, from home.

I'm not...

I don't think my IFB is working right now, so if we get a call just to give a signal to me.

Anyone out there, a phone call now?

Thank you.

Anyone out there has got a question or comment, I'll come to you.

Go ahead with the, with a phone call, please.

Yes.

Your question.

Caller 2> Yes, I noticed that, this is near the Savannah River site, and I was wondering if the, sites up in Virginia were also, characteristic to the same site, like on a riverbed or whatnot, or if that were common?

Jim> The sites in Virginia, sure.

Dr. Goodyear> The one in Virginia, Cactus Hill is on a riverbank.

It's not part of a flood deposit like ours was in the Ice Age, but it's right next to the Nottoway River.

The one in Pennsylvania is actually a rock shelter, and there's a little creek that runs by.

Jim> Have you been there, doctor?

And that is so rich in terms of constant layers.

How how much material have they found?

Have they put a number on the different artifacts they pulled out of there?

Dr. Stanford> I haven't any idea, but they have gotten thousands and many, many levels of occupation.

And it too was a site that was a very, extraordinarily well excavated.

And, we look forward to the final publication on that site.

The main difference I see between Topper and Meadowcroft, which is the Pennsylvania site and Cactus Hill in Virginia, is that, Topper is a quarry site.

They're at a place where they're getting raw material and they're doing different activities than we're seeing at the other two sites.

Jim> The rock overhang in Pennsylvania attracted people out of the elements and, where they would camp out and stay quite a long time.

Dr. Stanford> Yeah.

Indeed.

So, what we hope to find, I think, here in South Carolina eventually, is another campsite, a rock shelter or whatever.

So we can begin to compare sites that are, have the same, same activities that are going on.

Jim> We have many, many phone calls.

Go ahead with your question, please.

Hello?

Caller 3> Yes, do elementary school's students ever have the opportunity to visit the site?

Jim> Thank you.

Dr. Goodyear> Yes they do.

We have, free tours for the public on Saturday morning from about 10 to 12, and we try to do a...

I give a lecture and tour there on the site and explain to people what they're finding.

We have tour groups come from all over South Carolina, and people who are under 18, can come, can register for the week, but they have to have a guardian come with them.

Jim> And you may call the University Institute of... of archeology and anthropology- Dr. Goodyear> Correct.

And, just tell us when your tour group is coming so we'll know.

We can get about 50 or 60 people on the hillside there.

Jim> Or email Goodyear@sc.edu Dr. Goodyear> That's correct, Jim.

Jim> Goodyear@sc.edu Another phone call, a question.

Go ahead, Claire.

Claire> Yes, I was wondering if they found evidence of animals at the Topper dig and if particularly dogs, and if so, how far back have they dated it.

Jim> All right.

Thank you.

Dr. Goodyear> Well, because of the soil conditions at Topper we only find stone tools, the bone and antler, and wood and skin and so forth has not been preserved over the millennia.

So we can't say exactly.

Well, you can be sure people did, have wooden artifacts and certainly had, ate animals and there were bones there.

And as for dogs...

I'm not a dog expert.

We've got a few dog experts, I think, in the audience.

But I would say dogs have been found back 8 or 9000 years, wouldn't you, Dennis, in North America?

Dr. Stanford> In North America, 10,000 to 20.

Dr. Goodyear> I mean, the the dog as we know it today.

Dr. Stanford> Which means, indicates to me, the dog's been here a long time, and the oldest dog I know of is around 14,000 in the old world.

Jim> It's good to have some young people calling in.

And we do encourage, any questions that you have for Doctor Dennis Stanford of Smithsonian Institution or Doctor Al Goodyear from the, University of South Carolina Institute of Archeology, Anthropology.

Call in right now.

There, there has been, some of the, there have been many volunteers who come back year after year after year.

Dr. Goodyear does it ever come a point where you have to say, sorry, we can't take any more people?

Dr. Goodyear> A couple years ago it got pretty full, and- Jim> So sign up early and often.

Dr. Goodyear> That's right.

Jim> Actually, are you signing up now for the spring dig?

Dr. Goodyear> People can contact me?

I'll put them on a notification list.

It starts January 1, and we expect a full crew this year, not only for the Clovis find, but also the Pre-Clovis.

And the volunteers are the heart and soul of this program.

I tell people we've, I've discovered personally two wonderful things in Allendale, a site that I had no idea was this old.

And the second great discovery, was, are the people who have come to help us there, so.

I like them both.

Jim> We have another viewer on the line.

Fred, go ahead with your question, please.

Fred> Okay... How do y'all find out about these sites?

Do people call y'all?

And if so, what constitutes a good site for y'all to come look at?

Say you find half a shoe box full of artifacts in one 50 by 50, yard plot.

Is that a good site?

Jim> ...South Carolina is rich.

Fred, thank you, Tom Charles, of course, one of the archeologists members in the audience.

I know Tom has been across the state talking to folks just, just as you about your collections.

<Exactly> Jim> You want folks to keep them.

But you like to know where they are from.

Dr. Goodyear> He asked about how we know about where a good site is.

We were led to this site by an amateur artifact collector a guy named David Topper.

actually from Fairfax, South Carolina.

He showed it to us in '81.

We named the site for him.

And what it was, was an industrial site.

It's where people went to get this material for thousands of years.

But these specimens show up in all the counties of South Carolina.

And the young gentleman who called probably has a few pieces may have been made at the Topper site.

Why we went there was to search for the people who used this, especially the early humans.

But you have to have a place where it's stratified, where the sediments build up, where you can begin to peel it apart layer by layer, as you saw in the film.

Like you're opening chapters of a book.

So, some sites are more amenable than others to scientific excavation.

Jim> So this material, Allendale chert, is turning up in other parts of this state.

What about other parts of the South?

Dr. Goodyear> Probably some of this has, occurs has been brought into North Carolina as well.

We have artifacts from North Carolina in the Topper site.

But this is a highly prized material and would go all over the state.

Jim> Another viewer, Ted, go ahead with your question.

Ted> I would like to ask Doctor Goodyear, I found a wooden Indian head, it was buried way down deep in the ground.

It's a female.

She's ten inches tall, four inches wide, with feathers on each side of her head and her hair is carved out.

And I was wondering who I need to contact to find out how old this Indian head is?

Jim> Let me run out, Jonathan Leader, our State Archeologist is here.

John, have you been out into the field talking- Dr. Stanford> Take it John.

(laughter) John> This is one of those, fun things.

Bring it in.

We'll take a look at it.

That's one of the nice things about the Institute of Archeology and Anthropology.

We encourage people in the community, the public, not only to be involved in all of our projects, all of our projects by the way, underwater, on land take volunteers.

Our youngest was seven.

Our oldest was 90.

You want to do work with us?

You know, as long as you're straight up, come on down.

Jim> Come on down.

John> But if you have if you have artifacts, you need them to be identified.

Bring them on down.

We'll take a look.

We'll discuss.

We're always happy to see what's out there.

We might... might find another Topper.

Who knows?

Jim> Thank you, Jonathan.

And we are running out of time.

Thanks to the folks that called in tonight for your questions.

And, Doctor, Dennis Stanford, thank you for coming down from Smithsonian.

Dr. Stanford> My pleasure Jim.

Jim> Is this volunteer work that took place with Doctor Goodyear and our institute typical of what happens across country?

Or is there a better excitement in our state?

Dr. Stanford> I think there's a very high excitement in your state, and, there's not enough of this kind of work going on between archeologist and interested amateurs.

I want to see more.

Jim> Thank you.

We're out of time.

Time flew away.

Thank you, Dennis Stanford.

Thank you, Al Goodyear.

Thank you, folks from across the state.

Good night.

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