♪♪ Leading Sacramento County in its fight against crime, District Attorney Thien Ho brings a unique perspective to issues like homelessness, gun violence and human trafficking.

He joins us today to share his story and his views on the importance of public safety.

Mr. Ho, as the new district attorney for Sacramento County, you've expressed a commitment to addressing the homeless crisis in Sacramento.

Can you elaborate on what specific plans you have in tackling this issue?

Absolutely.

Really, our community in Sacramento is at a breaking point.

And we've seen an increase in the unsheltered population by nearly 250% in the last six years.

And those that are unsheltered, living in those conditions, are similar to conditions of third world countries.

And what that leaves the rest of the community, as well, is were stuck in a position between compassion and chaos.

And so, I've called for action.

I've asked many stakeholders to step up as well.

In particular, in the last few weeks, I have asked for help from the city of Sacramento and their leadership.

Over the last year, my office has documented nearly 87 different incidents, often including the unsheltered population in and around the courthouse and the DA's office.

And I am a strong believer that access to justice is something that everyone is entitled to.

Whether you were a victim of a crime, whether you were accused of a crime, um, or whether you were simply a juror coming down, um, to serve your civic duty, people need to feel safe and they need to be safe.

And we also need to protect those that are unhoused as well, because they deserve safety as well.

I...

I want to just jump in on that point because in reading articles that have been published in the Sacramento Bee, looking at comment sections, um, hearing- even hearing about feedback from a survey that you and your office have recently launched, there was a comment in the Sacramento Bee that says, “Thank you for speaking for the silent majority.

” And there seems to be just a pent up amount of passion about this subject that people are uncomfortable talking about, that you've kind of hit a flash point where your message and your actions on this subject seems to have galvanized at least a significant part of the community.

Can you speak to what's going on?

Scott, that's a great point that you just brought up.

In fact, uh, in the last week that we've posted our survey on the website, SacDA.org, we have had nearly 1400 responses in that period of time, which is unprecedented.

And as I read through the survey, there are certain things that stand out, and I'll give you a couple of examples that are really heartbreaking, frustrating at the same time, as well.

And it's a call to action because I've asked people, this is your opportunity to be heard.

This is your opportunity to make a difference.

A lot of times, if we are a big business like Wal-Mart or something else and there's things that we need as a big business or, um, an elected official, we know the phone calls that need to be made.

We know who we need to talk to.

But for everyday citizens, this is an opportunity for them to be heard.

I mean, I have a woman right now, uh, who sent in a survey.

Over the last three years, she's had the window to the front of her home broken repeatedly, to the point where she stopped fixing it and she had to put just a styrofoam cover.

Every day she came home, she would find feces and urine, um, on her driveway.

She saw somebody get raped in the middle of the street right outside the encampment from across the street.

She's been threatened, um, and had a gun held to her head from somebody who was coming from that encampment.

She's had property stolen.

And this isn't just a story unique to her.

We also had somebody call in and write a survey that there were a girls soccer game that was being played at a park, and they literally had to postpone the game because the coaches found needles in the middle of the park and they had to stop and collect it.

And so, we're really at this point in time where what I'm afraid of, honestly, is this- We have, in the human heart, a tremendous capacity for compassion.

But what we're seeing now is people are so fed up and so frustrated that when you walk down the street and you see somebody suffering, you see somebody going through a mental health crisis, uh, they're half dressed, they're... theyre defecating on themselves, they're talking to themselves and they're out of their mind, more often than not, we just keep walking.

Let... let... let me... let me just press you on this because you're raising an... an important point.

And the word that comes to mind for me is “balance, ” which is compassion on one side, but sort of a civil society on the other, and the ability to go about living one's life.

There are concerns from members of the community and advocates for the homeless that... that your entry into this space and the approach that you are kicking off can lead to further criminalization of the unhoused population.

At the same time, it does seem that you've touched a nerve among many who feel that, um, the bal- uh, that things have been unbalanced and that in being unbalanced, there's been no action whatsoever that's meaningful, that people can see, where progress is being made.

Can you share with us how you're looking to thread that needle and work between those two polarities?

Absolutely.

So, my office is in the process of reaching out to some of the advocates, for example, the Homeless Union.

I would love to sit down and listen to them, listen to their concerns, listen to, um, their vision and address them.

I think part of being a leader is listening.

And so, I am in the process of reaching out to them.

I'm going to invite them to come to the office and sit down, and listen and... and understand their concerns.

And I share those concerns as well.

I don't believe it's compassionate to let somebody die on the streets in the sweltering summer sun or to freeze to death in- on a cold winter night.

But we balance that with a compassion that businesses shouldn't have to shut down because their windows are repeatedly, uh, being broken or, um, items are being stolen.

And it's not compassionate that a mother can't walk her daughter to the park and feel safe.

And so, there are a couple of fundamental questions.

The first question I would have is this, “Do the laws that we have in our society only apply to some and not others?

” That's a fundamental question.

Well, actually, there was a recent, uh, incident that happened in downtown Sacramento where, um, a... a person, um, who's been very active in trying to revitalize downtown Sacramento for decades, she and her husband- her name is Christine Ault- she was assaulted in front of, I believe it was the Wells Fargo Tower.

[Thien] Mmhmm.

[Scott] Um, and the person who assaulted her had, um, a... a pretty long record.

And Christine has made the point- and she's been on a couple of different news programs- that if she had- if the conduct had been reversed and she had assaulted this person, it was- it would be likely that law enforcement would have picked her up and that your office might have charged her, but that the reverse wasn't true, in protecting her.

How... how does that work into the equation?

I think that's the frustration that a lot of people are feeling.

Uh, I recently got a parking ticket.

I'm going to pay that parking ticket because I exceeded, by 15 minutes, the time that I was supposed to park there.

But there are then questions that other community members will say, “Well, why would you allow somebody to park indefinitely and illegally?

” And it's a very careful balance that we have to walk to make sure that we're not criminalizing those that are unhoused.

And so, the way I would address that is this- I believe in a model here, and I'm advocating it- for it in Sacramento, similar to what they have in San Antonio, which is a Haven for Hope.

And... and this is how I want to work on it and work on it with all the partners.

There is a mental health and drug addiction issue for many people that are chronically homeless.

Those that are chronically homeless, they've been homeless for more than a year.

Studies show that 80% of those that are chronically homeless suffer from mental health and drug addiction.

And if you happen to be unhoused and you commit a nonviolent offense, what I would like to do- And the basis of why you're committing those crimes, for those individuals, is substance abuse.

What I would like to do is, instead of taking those individuals to jail, I would like to take them to a location where they have an opportunity to sober up, get treatment, get services.

And what I would offer is this, that if they complete that program and get mental health treatment and get substance abuse... substance abuse treatment, and they complete it and they're successful at it, I will dismiss their nonviolent offense and I will have that criminal record expunged.

And that is the encouragement- right?

- to get people to get their life back together.

But I'm also a believer that once we stabilize them, we have to have transitional housing, we have to have shelter, because it doesn't help to put them back on the street again.

Well... well... well, hold on.

You're saying that you'd like them to have shelter.

It's my understanding that you're not a big fan of a “housing first ” strategy.

So, reconcile that for me, because- unless that's not true.

I am a believer that people need shelter.

I'm a believer that we should have safe grounds.

I am a believer that people should have shelter.

However, I am also a believer that there needs to be certain rules that we have to enforce.

If we're going to put somebody in a safe ground location, we can't have violations of the law occur in those locations.

We can't have crime, we can't have assaults, we can't have drug dealing.

And so, I'm a believer that we should have shelter.

But I'm also a believer that in the process, we do need to have compliance in and around those locations where the laws are enforced.

Let... let... let me... let me take another stab at this.

There's a- There is a very popular notion- not just in Sacramento, but across California- about “housing first.

” It's talked about all the time.

Is... is it that you believe that before offering someone housing, if they've got these mental health or addiction issues, that's what comes first as opposed to the housing?

I'm... Im just trying to figure out process here.

I'm a believer that they should happen at the same time.

[Scott] Okay.

[Thien] Because if you don't have shelter and somebody is not in a stable position, either mentally, emotionally or from a substance abuse level, then that doesn't help.

But at the same time, if you provide shelter without requiring some level of accountability and treatment, that doesn't help either.

I believe they should be at the same time and they should go together.

Okay.

Well... well, what's broken, then, about the current system as it stands today?

Because it's- Am I mistaken in that housing is being offered first, right now?

What I can tell you is that, um, there are examples and we're gathering the data, that housing has been offered, and sometimes people choose not to go to the shelter or the housing.

Um, services are being offered and they're not being accepted.

At the end of the day, it's a balance where you have to still enforce the local laws and rules.

My office, last year, prosecuted over 11,000 misdemeanor offenses, but I only have jurisdiction over state misdemeanors and state felonies.

I don't have any jurisdiction over city codes and city ordinances.

And frankly, I have seen inconsistent and, at times, nonexistent enforcement of those local laws.

And is that the reason that you've recently launched this investigation that's focused on the city of Sacramento and... and, frankly, its administration of enforcing its codes and ordinances related to the homeless?

That is most definitely a part of it.

And I think there's that balance there- right?

- between compliance, services, treatment, all that.

But if you're missing any part of that component, then the system is not going to work.

There is compliance, um, that is happening on the county level and, frankly, that has increased and moved some of our unhoused population into the city and in my- I think- Distrcit Attorney Ho, time out for one second.

You say it is going on with the county.

So, you actually, uh, led into my next question, which is this- Historically, there has been a lot of criticism of the county of Sacramento, who actually does have responsibility for those types of basic health care and mental health care services for its at-risk populations.

And that the... and that the county of Sacramento has, frankly, for the past several years, sat on its hands and been a recalcitrant, if at all present, partner with the citys- uh, within its jurisdiction on working on homelessness.

So, the question that... that many have posed is, “How come you're not investigating the county, as well, if you're going to investigate the city of Sacramento?

” I've heard that critique of the county by many people.

But what I've seen firsthand in the last seven months since I took office- and I took office in January of this year- and what I started seeing, um, at the end of last year as I was moving towards transitioning into my current position, is that there has been a concerted effort by the county on creating more shelter beds.

They currently have 1300 shelter beds, um, that the county runs.

Um, based upon information I receive, is they have anywhere between three and five hundred additional shelter beds that will be going online by the end of the year.

Additionally, they have nine behavioral health navigators that the county has given, um, to the city, and that they will continue to work with the city in terms of placing the behavioral health beds as well.

So, I have seen, um, on that side, at least as I was transitioning into my current position in the last seven months, seen that effort by the county.

In addition to that, with the increased beds and in addition to that, with what I am seeing from Sheriff Cooper and his homeless outreach team that have been going out to make contact with the unhoused and the unsheltered, offering them services, offering them shelter, um, but also making sure that you have compliance with the laws.

Sure.

Sure.

Okay.

Well, that... that makes sense.

And there have been reports about how the sheriff's office has... has been stepping up and getting out there and actually going into some of these camps in... in order to, you know, do an assessment and provide services.

Question for you, as a district attorney- A, do you have the resources to... to really, uh, play the robust role that you're contemplating on this issue?

And... and that means from the county, itself.

And secondly, how much are you investing right now in this?

I mean, do you have a squad, a group?

Um, how is it that the district attorney is taking on this issue on a daily basis?

What I can say is this.

We actually have the second largest district attorney's office in northern California.

We have approximately 175 prosecutors, uh, 432 employees.

We have our own crime lab.

We are larger than San Francisco, in terms of the DA's office, larger than, uh, Alameda County.

We are only behind, um, Santa Clara County up north, here.

And so, I have the resources, we have the resources.

And frankly, even if we didn't have the resources- and we are, um, required, just like any other DA's office, to oftentimes do more with less- this is such an important issue for our community on a public safety level, on a community level, on a humanitarian level, that we will, um, dedicate the resources to tackle this issue.

On the current investigation and analysis of what is going on, I have an entire team.

What we did was we sent out a survey.

That survey identifies 16 different major encampments in the city.

And we've asked people to identify community members and business owners, just everyday citizens, to identify the impact that it has, um, has had on them.

And part of that question on the survey- and I don't know if you have a copy of it, but I'll send one to you, Scott- is that there are questions about what response have you received from the city when you reached out?

Have you called 911?

Have you called 311?

Have you contacted your... your... your elected officials?

And what has been the response?

And a lot of our respondents have said that their calls for help have gone unanswered.

[Scott] Really?

[Thien] Nearly a month ago- I'll give an example here- I asked for help in the area around the courthouse, here, because it's an access to justice issue.

And I can tell you that things have only gotten worse in that period of time.

I had- [Scott] There was also- Not to interrupt you, but, uh, I was surprised that the presiding judge, I believe, of the local courts, sent a letter as well.

And it does almost seem kind of like a ‘man bites dog story, when it is that... that the... the judges can't get basic law enforcement in their own community.

I'll tell you a story.

I won't identify the judge.

It wasn't the presiding judge.

It was somebody else.

Another judge that I know, um, said that they won't leave the courthouse because of public safety concerns.

We had a court reporter, after that letter was sent by the presiding judge, a court reporter that was assaulted in Cesar Chavez Park during broad daylight at the farmer's market.

And just about a week ago, one of my employees was walking back from court and was threatened.

And a few weeks before that- I have an employee who, uh, wears traditional Muslim headwear.

And we had somebody from the unsheltered population- and remember, it's a small group here, so I don't want to cast aspersions on... on everybody- but there was somebody who then started saying, “You f-ing Muslim, ” and started threatening her.

And all she was doing was walking back from doing her job.

My employees don't feel safe.

And honestly, sometimes when I walk on the streets, I don't feel safe.

And that is not right.

Let me... let me ask you this.

District Attorney Ho, you've taken this very bold step out.

I'm curious, how do your colleagues who also run this... this county- and whether they're city folks, city electeds or county electeds, and all this- have they welcomed your... your entrance into this discussion, or... or are they a little bit, frankly, pissed off because of the fact that you... you've kind of opened the floodgate?

What I can tell you and, you know, I'm going to keep some of the conversations confidential, but I have received tremendous support from my colleagues, from my elected colleagues.

Um, and that's from, you know, a wide array of areas, whether it's from the city of Sacramento, whether it's from the county, whether it's from other cities in the area, um, I received a lot of, uh, support in regards to what it is that I am looking into and trying to do.

And mind you, I'm in the process of... of gathering information and evidence, and I'll... Ill talk about that process in a moment.

But I'm not, you know- Part of being a prosecutor and a district attorney is you gather the evidence and then you follow the facts and the law wherever it takes you.

So, right now, in terms of the timeline- if you're interested, Scott- is we've- I've sent a letter asking for help.

I felt as if that help did not come.

I've now sent a survey and have posted it on SacDA.org asking for the community to respond.

Uh, we've received a tremendous response, but we are still collecting, uh, that information.

I'm also going to be looking at 311 calls.

I'm going to be looking at 911 calls, what we call “catalogs, ” fire reports.

We're going to be documenting in terms of photographs.

We're going to gather this, um, all this evidence and I'm gonna sit down and- with my team and evaluate it.

And that's part of the process of what we're doing, because we're gathering information, which is important to do.

Okay.

Uh, and I want to ask you- turn the conversation a little bit, and ask you a little bit about yourself.

[Thien] Sure.

[Scott] Um, you know, you... you come to elective office after a very distinguished career as a prosecutor, but your early story and where you come from and how you came to where you are today, share- uh, give us just a... a brief snapshot of what Thien Ho comes from.

Absolutely.

Thank you for that.

So, I was born in Vietnam and when I was a child, what happened was South Vietnam fell to the communist North in 1975.

And so in 1976, when I was a young child, my uncle, who worked for the South Vietnamese government, when the communists came in, they arrested him, without a judge, without a jury, without a prosecutor.

They sent him to a reeducation camp where he was tortured and starved for seven years.

So in 1976, when I was a child, my parents, my little brother and I, along with a group of their friends, they pooled their money together to buy a fishing boat.

A couple of days before we escaped from Vietnam, my father took my favorite toy in the whole wide world, which was a little plastic gun, and he painted it black.

He stole a uniform from a communist officer.

The night that we escaped, he put on that stolen uniform, put my toy gun in the holster.

They put my two month old brother in a cardboard box and punched holes in it so he could breathe.

We snuck aboard the boat, went below deck.

As the 40, 50 of us were below deck, my dad's up there in that stolen uniform with the captain of the boat, and they're going through the checkpoints to make it out to sea.

We get stopped by a military guard.

The guard said to my dad, “Why are you out here?

” My dad says, “I just bought this boat from the captain here and we're just out on a cruise, my wife and my two boys who are below deck.

” The guard looked at my dad, he says, “No, I think you have a bunch of refugees below deck, and I want to search right here, right now.

” Dad said, “Alright.

Go ahead and look.

If you find a bunch of refugees, you can kill all of us, starting with me.

But if you look down there and all you see is my wife and my two boys, I'm going to take this gun, ” and he's pointing to the fake plastic gun, “and I'm gonna blow your brains out.

How dare you to question me?

I outrank you.

” And he's pointing to the stolen uniform.

So, my dad had never gambled in his entire life until that moment.

The guard looked at my dad for a moment.

He says, “Na, we don't need to look.

Why dont you come back here for a drink?

” And if you know anything about Vietnamese people, we love our cognac.

So, they're drinking cognac there, and we're all freaking out.

He made it back.

We made it out to sea.

The problem was the captain of the boat, his family got stuck on shore, so he jumped off the ship.

He swam back, and he left us.

Nobody on the boat knew how to navigate the ocean.

We're trying to cross the South China Sea to the Philippines.

My dad was a schoolteacher.

He thought about turning back.

But if you turn back and you got caught, you know what's going to happen.

You're dead.

So, they made a run for it.

Ran out of gas, ran out of food, ran out of water.

We're just drifting on the ocean for several weeks, near death.

I remember I was so tired, I just laid in my mother's lap, unable to move until we were rescued by a merchant ship.

So, I spent six months in a refugee camp with my family in Malaysia.

When we arrived in the U.S., I didn't understand a word of English.

I learned how to speak English, Scott, by watching Bugs Bunny cartoons.

22 years later, I graduated from law school.

Now, can we do better in our democracy?

Can our republic be better and more fair to all of its citizens and all of its people?

Absolutely, but we have the best country in the whole wide world.

And so, as I became a lawyer, I wanted to give back to the country and give back to the community.

So, I became a prosecutor because I believe that justice, uh, for all of us is important.

And I think that we will leave it there, District Attorney Thien Ho, and we will have you back on, because that was the best cliffhanger to leave us with of anything I...

I've experienced on... on television this year.

So please, will you come back on and finish the story?

Absolutely.

Id love to come back and finish the story.

Um, and if you ever want to hear about some of the interesting cases that my office has handled over the years, I'd love to come back because I think people would be interested about that, um, as well.

And- [Scott] And we... and we will do so.

Thank you so much.

Thank you, Scott.

And that's our show.

Thanks to our guest and thanks to you for watching Studio Sacramento.

I'm Scott Syphax.

See you next time right here on KVIE.

♪♪ All episodes of Studio Sacramento, along with other KVIE programs, are available to watch online at kvie.org/video.