- An escalating conflict, the fate of the hostages, civilian casualties and diplomacy, this week on "Firing Line."

A month after Hamas's October 7th terrorist attack, Israeli forces have surrounded and entered Gaza City.

About 240 hostages are still held captive by Hamas.

- I had a lot of friends there who have lost kids at that concert.

A buddy of mine's daughter was kidnapped.

- [Hoover] While Palestinian civilians, used as human shields by the terrorist group, are losing their lives.

- Hamas puts their facilities purposely, purposely inside hospitals, apartment buildings.

This is 101 Terrorism.

- [Hoover] Until July, Tom Nides served as U.S.

Ambassador to Israel.

After a brief period in the private sector, he has now returned to work full-time on Israel's future as a private citizen.

- I like to tell people you can be pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian people, which is what I am.

- [Hoover] Nides knows the complex issues and personalities intimately, from Israel's wartime leaders to the threats from Iran and its militant proxies, including Hezbollah and Hamas.

What does former Ambassador to Israel Tom Nides say now?

- [Announcer] "Firing Line with Margaret Hoover" is made possible in part by: Robert Granieri, Vanessa and Henry Cornell, The Fairweather Foundation, The Tepper Foundation, The Asness Family Foundation, The McKenna Family Foundation, Charles R. Schwab and by The Rosalind P. Walter Foundation and Damon Button.

Corporate funding is provided by: Stephens Inc. - Ambassador Tom Nides, welcome to "Firing Line."

- Thank you for having me.

- Israel and Hamas have now been at war for more than a month since Hamas's terrorist attack against Israel on October 7th.

You have said the next 30 days are the most important in Israel's history.

Why?

- 'Cause Israel's trying to do four things at the same time, and they all contradict each other.

- [Hoover] What are they?

- One is they're trying to rid the country of Hamas.

Hamas needs to be gone.

And that's complicated and difficult.

Second, they need to get these hostages out.

- Yeah.

- So obviously, that runs in contradiction to getting rid of Hamas 'cause it's complicated, obviously.

Third, they got to keep Hezbollah out.

They've got to keep the north safe.

And obviously, that's complicated as well.

And lastly, and very importantly, they got to do everything they can to prevent loss of Palestinian lives, because none of us like seeing the pictures of children being killed.

These are innocent kids.

They're innocent people.

Hamas doesn't care about the Palestinian people.

Let's make it clear, they want to use them as human shields.

They want more martyrs.

They want more Palestinian deaths.

It serves their purpose, and their purpose is to destroy the state of Israel.

And so that is the complications for the state of Israel.

They have these four things all going on at the same time, all attempting to try to resolve.

And it's a huge challenge.

- Why does it hinge on the next 30 days?

- Well, because I think, ultimately, as you know, these things all have momentums to them, right?

They have a rhythm.

And so all the pressure... Let's be clear, the international pressure on Israel is getting greater and greater, including, you know, pressure on the United States.

And so far the Biden administration is steadfast on the support of the state of Israel and the need to get rid of Hamas.

But you've been around this, as I have.

As this goes on, people's attentions goes other places and pressure builds.

- After 10/7, you resigned from a new role at Wells Fargo, after a month on the job, to focus full time on the situation in the Middle East.

You said in your resignation announcement to your colleagues, quote, "Watching the horrific events unfold in Israel and Gaza had a profound effect on me in ways I could not have imagined."

How did the events of 10/7 impact you?

- Well, you know, I had a lot of friends there who have lost kids at that concert.

You know, a buddy of mine's daughter was kidnapped.

Assume for a minute that 350 million Americans, or whatever the number of Americans, had a family member who died in the Twin Towers, God forbid.

This is what Israel's going through.

Every call I have, every day, every single day, I talk to 10, 15 people in Israel, I mean, from the government officials to my friends, to my neighbors.

And they're all, they're just suffering in a way that it's remarkable.

Hamas did something that has not occurred in Israel's 75-year history.

They brought the country together.

The country is together, and they want to rid Israel of the threat of Hamas, and they want these hostages back.

So I'm doing a little bit of my share.

Obviously, I care deeply about it.

They're my friends.

But listen, this is important to the state of Israel.

It's important to peace in the Middle East.

And quite frankly, it's very important to the Palestinian people.

If we're ever gonna come out of this with some sort of, you know, new Middle East, we got to make sure everyone's hands are on deck.

You know, I like to tell people, you can be pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian people, which is what I am.

I spent, and when I was there in Israel, I think, you know, half my time I spent working on the Palestine issues for health care and education, opportunities for those Palestinians who live in the West Bank and Gaza.

It's really important.

And for people to understand you can be the American ambassador to Israel and care deeply about the fate of the Palestinian people.

And so that's...

If I can do it, there's a little bit of...

I don't want to get carried away about my importance or anyone individually, but collectively, we all got to work together.

- [Hoover] You've spoken to the families of several hostages.

- [Nides] Mm-hmm.

- Some Israeli relatives of hostages are calling on Bibi Netanyahu, the Prime Minister, to make concessions, such as release all of the Palestinian prisoners held in Israel to Hamas in order to bring their family members home.

Is that a nonstarter?

- Listen, I'm not gonna offer or suggest what should be done or not be done.

Clearly, the United States, Israel, the Qataris, the Egyptians, the Emiratis, everyone is working for the same goal.

They want to get Hamas to release these innocent mothers and daughters and babies.

I mean, who does something as barbaric as this?

So I'm not smart enough to tell you exactly how...

I know for sure, 'cause I talk to the White House every day, multiple times a day, they're working on this to free these hostages, to get them back to their loved ones.

- This week, Israeli forces separated Northern Gaza from the rest of the territory.

They've encircled Gaza City.

Hundreds of thousands of Palestinian civilians remain in the north.

Hamas is likely to continue to use them as human shields as the fighting intensifies.

Do you think Israel is doing as much as it can to prevent civilian casualties?

- Yeah, I do.

Listen, you know, I'm not making excuses.

This is a war.

So I can't say, "Oh, yes, yes, they're doing everything possible."

No, this is a war, folks.

And again, as someone who cares deeply, I got off the phone, you know, an hour ago with a friend of mine who lives in Ramallah, has a lot of family and friends in Gaza.

You know, he's, like, in tears with me on the phone.

And he said, "You got to get this stopped."

So I don't- - So he's a Palestinian man?

- He's a Palestinian, a very successful businessman, has a large operation in Gaza and in the West Bank.

So, you know, are they doing everything they can?

You know, I hope they are.

But this is a war.

This is a bunch of terrorists who are attempting... You know, what is Israel supposed to do?

That's what I want, I want people to ask this question.

And the question is, to those who say we should have a ceasefire, again, wouldn't it be great?

You could have a ceasefire tomorrow.

All that needs to happen is Hamas needs to give up.

Then all this ends.

But, you know, they don't want to do that.

And so, sadly, you know, a lot of innocent people that don't deserve to die are dying.

- You mentioned the increasing condemnation internationally against Israel from many countries around the world related to civilian casualties in Gaza.

I think the seminal question, right, is, since Hamas is willfully placing residents of Gaza in danger, directly in harm's way to protect themselves, how does Israel think about balancing its goal of eliminating Hamas with its desire to protect as many civilians as possible?

- God, it's hard.

That's why I said at the beginning, what we asked at the beginning.

I said they're trying to do all these things at the same time, and they all run in contradiction with each other, right?

You want to get rid of Hamas, but you don't want to kill innocent people.

And Israel knows they're fighting against the clock.

They understand.

There is no question that Israel can't do this forever.

And I think the advice that the administration is giving, although I'm not obviously in the Situation Room right now, but what I believe to be the case, they're saying to the Israelis, "Lessen the tempo on the air bombardments and do what you need to do on the ground."

Because obviously when you go in with airplanes and dropping bombs, you are going to kill more people.

That's just what is going to happen.

Given the fact, as you've just said, Hamas puts their facilities purposely, purposely inside hospitals, apartment buildings, 'cause they know exactly what they're gonna do.

Israel's gonna drop a bomb to get them and they're gonna kill a bunch of innocent people.

They know this.

- How do you reflect on the coalition wartime cabinet of Benny Gantz and Bibi Netanyahu and others, and how they're dealing with all these contradictions?

- So they're all my friends.

I mean, put the Prime Minister aside, Benny Gantz in particular is someone I have an enormous amount of respect for.

What I'm happy about is some of the right wing lunatics, that's a diplomatic term, by the way, are not inside the war cabinet.

So I feel comfortable with Benny Gantz and Defense Minister Gallant, that they're gonna try to do the right thing.

- You were in Israel during a highly divisive time politically.

Prime Minister Netanyahu had to endure massive domestic protests for many, many months related to his efforts to purportedly reform the judiciary, others would say undermine the independence of the judiciary.

What did you observe about Israeli politics in the time you were there?

- You know, Netanyahu was the most liberal guy in his government.

You know, he basically put a coalition together with some people who ideologically were way farther right than he was, but forced him to do many things that, I'm not sure, left to his own, he would necessarily have been...

This wouldn't have been the first thing on his list.

When I sat down with Netanyahu, he said the things I cared about, the two things he cared about was Iran and normalizing with Saudi Arabia.

Those are the two things that Netanyahu... And I kept saying to him, "Mr. Prime Minister, I believe you.

Why are you being distracted by all this noise?"

And I think ultimately it became, you know, a byproduct of politics.

If he wanted to keep his coalition together, he had to do things such as judicial reform.

And I'm sure the prime minister, beyond the intelligence failure that occurred and how this all happened, I think he would step back and think, in multiple years, he'll look back and believe that the distraction of the of the judiciary reform, I don't believe it caused the October 7th, but he just wasted a lot of time on things that he could have been pushing his agenda that could have move the country forward.

- Do you think it's fair to question whether his focus on divisive domestic politics, did it give Hamas the impression that Israel was weak and divided?

- You know, I don't know.

You know, listen, no one should question Israel's strength.

I think what happened here was generally a view that Hamas had too much to lose and they would never do something like this.

That was a miscalculation.

So I think ultimately they'll have to look at all of the things that happened here and why it happened.

But at the end of the day, I think what will become clear is there was a point of view within the government.

And that point of view was wrong.

- Peggy Noonan, a conservative columnist for "The Wall Street Journal," wrote this week that Netanyahu is the wrong leader for this crucial moment.

She said, "His actions smeared Israel in the eyes of the world as increasingly undemocratic.

He has been aggressively deaf to the rights of the Palestinian people.

The US in its support of Israel is tied to this discredited man in a way that doesn't help."

What's your reaction?

- I have enormous confidence in this country to decide who their leadership should be.

And the only thing I would just agree with Peggy on this, on her...

The President, Joe Biden is doing this for the state of Israel.

He's not doing this for Bibi Netanyahu.

Joe Biden is doing this 'cause he believes in the importance of the state of Israel and the security of the state of Israel.

And, you know, one of the benefits of Biden being so old is he gets it.

He's been around this.

He knows, it's in his kishkas.

He understands.

The guy really, really cares about the security of the state of Israel.

And Bibi, no Bibi, it's irrelevant.

It's about the Israeli people.

It's about the security of the state of Israel.

And that's exceptionally important.

And, to be clear, security for America.

You know, Hamas is not only a threat to Israel, but it's also a threat to the United States and our interests in the region 'cause it's a proxy for Iran.

So it's important for people to understand it's not just about Israel, it's about the United States security and the importance of our men and women who are in the region to make sure they're secure as well.

- Hassan Nasrallah, Hezbollah's leader, said in a closely watched speech recently that, for now, Hezbollah will not get directly involved in the conflict in Gaza.

How did you interpret that speech and how do you evaluate the probability of the conflict expanding more broadly?

- It's a good question.

I don't think any of us really know.

I think they're making a calculation, the Iranians are making this calculation.

And I think they believe, rightfully, the Israelis and with American help, will make sure that they are not attacking the state of Israel.

And so I think when Joe Biden says all these comments about, "superpowers don't bluff," I think they believe it.

I think in this particular case, they believe that Joe Biden is not gonna let them screw around with Israel.

And you have these ships in the Mediterranean.

I think the President of the United States made a very clear message to the regional players, "stay out of this."

For the time being, it's worked.

We'll see how it all plays out.

- The Biden administration this week deployed a guided missile submarine to the Middle East, which joins, as you mentioned, two carrier strike groups and thousands of service members that are in the region.

How would you grade our deterrence at the moment?

- Very strong.

Even I am surprised at how aggressive the administration has been.

And I mean, I knew that in my heart.

But you know what happens.

You know, people are like, "Well, do you really need this?"

And listen, the President, not only does he know a lot about the region, he's been through the fights in the region, he's had the relationships in the region.

It matters.

I mean, as you know, the Middle East is a complicated beast.

And having people who are experienced in this, you know, it makes me feel comfortable, because you can't... One thing about Biden, you can't play him, because he's like, "I know this game."

- Let me, then, ask you, and because you played an important role in the Biden administration's policy in Israel and in Iran leading up to 10/7- - Yeah.

- You know that critics of the administration point to the Biden administration's interactions with the Iranian regime up till now as being interpreted as conciliatory by the regime.

They point to attempts to reenter the nuclear deal, to agreeing weeks prior to the 10/7 attack to exchange five American hostages for a release of funds to the Iranian regime.

How do you reflect now on the posture the Biden administration had towards Iran prior to 10/7 and whether there was an opportunity, or even an imperative, to reevaluate that approach?

- Well, first of all, I think they've been pretty consistent.

I mean, I think the Biden administration is pretty consistent.

I think it's clear that we're sending a very strong message to the Iranians of every time they make a move that we basically make a move back, including what we've just done today.

So I don't think there's been a total inconsistency whatsoever in the messages.

And the question is gonna be, over the long haul, what does this relationship look like?

And, you know, and I think ultimately the Biden administration has been very, very clear about this.

They want to basically isolate them, attempt to try to contain them, attempt to try to make sure they don't get to break out on their nuclear program.

So, again, I think it is, at the end of the day, Iran's looking around and seeing, you know, words matter, but actions are more important.

And he saw the actions of what this president did vis a vis sending those very large ships into the region pointed towards Iran.

And that should send a very strong message, "we're not screwing around here."

- Is it your evaluation that there are not moderates in the Iranian regime with whom we can work?

- You know, I don't know.

Again, I assume that they're... At some point, the Iranians have to make these decisions about their economy, how far they want to go to break out.

Do they want to have a nuclear weapon?

Do they not want a nuclear weapon?

Do they want to go and have a military confrontation with the United States?

The president's been very clear.

He will not stand by and let Iran obtain a nuclear weapon.

I think Joe Biden means it.

And the question is, Iran will have to make that decision, how far do they want to push this president?

And they'll have to live with the consequences of those decisions.

- Do you think his strong actions since 10/7 do more to convince Iran that he means what he says?

- Yeah, hell yes.

Biden's been very clear about this.

Iran, you make the decision.

You want to go to a break out and build a nuclear weapon, you're gonna deal with the consequences of the United States of America.

And I think they're seeing those actions live out in real time today as we're standing up to protect the state of Israel.

- Do you think the withdrawal from Afghanistan and the fallout from the withdrawal was noticed by Iran and its proxies in the region in the same way that analysts suggest Putin also took note that the US was weak?

- I think what they are seeing right now is what Biden has done with rallying NATO for the first time since World War II.

- Well, they're seeing it after the fact.

- Okay, but my point is actions speak louder than words.

The reality of this is, for the first time since World War II, NATO is aligned to go against Putin.

So if I'm Iran, interesting enough, I sit around and say to myself, "Hmm, I guess they're pretty serious about fighting with Putin.

That's interesting.

They got the whole world basically against Putin.

Now, maybe Biden is not so weak.

Maybe this idea of the withdrawal in Afghanistan, yeah, wasn't great in their purview, but those big ships look like they could actually do us a lot of damage."

Maybe the Chinese look around and say, "Hmm, maybe we're not gonna go take Taiwan, okay, given what America has done."

So, again, you know, Margaret, it's hard to say which action creates what action.

But I think right now where we are today, I think no one should misconstrue Biden's focus on what he needs to do.

- Benjamin Netanyahu was on the original "Firing Line" with William F. Buckley Jr. Take a look at what he said in 1986.

- You can tell a lot about terrorists by what happens when they come to power.

Those who fight for freedom and come to power do not impose terrorism.

Those who do, who fight with terroristic means, end up as being masters of terrorist states: in Libya, in Algeria, and other countries that support and practice terrorism.

- Hamas was elected, democratically, in 2006 to control Gaza.

We know what happened.

There hasn't been an election since 2006.

It turned into essentially a terrorist state.

Once Hamas is eradicated, what comes next?

- Well, first of all, it's a great question, and I don't think anyone's yet to figure it out, okay?

So I think, ultimately, what I think is important for people to understand: Hamas does not speak for Gazans.

People will say, "Well, they were elected."

They were elected 20 years ago.

Okay?

- That was the only election.

- To be clear, I've seen plenty of polls that show Hamas is deeply, deeply unpopular.

And I would like them to take a poll of the people that are living in southern Gaza right now and ask them how appreciative are they of Hamas, how important Hamas has been to their life?

Okay, so what comes after this?

First of all, I think it's clear the Israelis cannot go occupy Gaza again.

If they have to occupy for a short period of time for security, that's one thing.

I think it's clear, our position and the world's position, that they're gonna need something else.

And it's got to be a Palestinian, it has to include the other Arab nations, because, first of all, it's gonna take billions and billions of dollars to basically rebuild Gaza City.

So you're gonna have to get those monies from many of the Arab countries.

So they're gonna have to come up with a plan here.

You know, maybe the Palestinian Authority as currently constructed may or may not be strong enough to take over.

But to be clear, the answer is not gonna be Israel occupying Gaza.

And my hope is with the Saudis... 'Cause, again, one of the reasons I was such a strong advocate for the Saudi normalization two months ago and three months ago and six months ago was I think fundamentally it will change the dynamics in the region.

I don't want to give that hope up, because Saudis can play an exceptionally important role here, not only for normalizing the state of Israel, but getting Israel to do things for the Palestinian people that they're going to have to do.

And I think that's gonna be really important.

I really do fundamentally believe that a normalization with Saudi would not only help Israel, but it then could potentially be the catalytic event that provides us the things that we need for the Palestinian people.

Because at the end of day, one of the downsides of the Abraham Accords was the Palestinian people didn't get any benefits from it.

We need to, on the next round, whatever that looks like, we got to be thinking carefully and closely about the fate of the Palestinian people, to focus on a two state solution, to focus on the future of the Palestinians.

'Cause I think it's not only right for security, but it's just the right thing to do.

- Have you spoken to your successor, Jack Lew, since he took the job?

- Many times.

- Should the embassy remain in Jerusalem?

- Yes.

It's the capital of Israel.

- Back in February, long before this chapter, you expressed concern that Israel was losing the narrative on college campuses.

We have seen an explosion of now overt antisemitism on college campuses.

What can be done to combat this?

- Well, you are right.

I've been on this since the moment I got to Israel.

And college kids, my kids, you know, they're always for the perceived underdog.

That's just the reality.

I said in every speech, you could be...

I am pro-Israel and pro-the Palestinian people.

- Yeah.

- You can do both.

Now, if they cross the line and people are talking about, you know, "the river to the sea," then I'm more than happy to, you know, to do what we need to do to rid that language.

- A term that represents the annihilation of Israel.

- Yeah, totally.

That's just bigotry.

That's ignorance and bigotry.

But I have no issues if college kids want to talk about the cause of the Palestinian people and what they're fighting for and what they need to get, I'm all good.

I feel that that's totally okay.

So I believe in my heart we got to do a better job of talking to my kids and, you know, other people's kids and college campuses and make sure they understand the story of Israel, the importance of this, why Israel was even created, and also talk about the importance of taking care of the Palestinian people.

I'm all in.

- Ambassador Tom Nides, thank you for your time.

- You're welcome, thank you.

- Thank you for joining me.

- [Announcer] "Firing Line with Margaret Hoover" is made possible in part by: Robert Granieri, Vanessa and Henry Cornell, The Fairweather Foundation, The Tepper Foundation, The Asness Family Foundation, The McKenna Family Foundation, Charles R. Schwab and by The Rosalind P. Walter Foundation and Damon Button.

Corporate funding is provided by: Stephens Inc. [lively music] [lively music continues] [lively music continues] [logo chimes] [gentle music] - [Announcer] You're watching PBS.