- (female announcer) Production funding for Behind the Headlines is made possible in part by the WKNO Production Fund, the WKNO Endowment Fund, and by viewers like you, thank you.

- The next act for the Overton Park Conservancy, tonight on Behind the Headlines.

[intense orchestral music] I am Eric Barnes with The Daily Memphian.

Thanks for joining us.

I'm joined tonight by Tina Sullivan, the Executive Director of Overton Park Conservancy.

Thanks for being here.

- Thanks for inviting me, Eric.

- And Bill Dries, reporter with The Daily Memphian.

So, Tina, after 12 years as Executive Director in a cushy, very relaxing, [Tina laughing] low stress job at a park that has just had no controversies, no trouble, is rolling in cash, you are retiring at the end of this year, I think is basically the plan.

So, thanks for everything you've done.

Okay.

So, we have to say this thing that you and I are friends, we became friends.

This is also a disclosure for my inappropriate behavior throughout the show we're about to do.

That we got to be friends when I was on the Overton Park Board many years ago, and then was Board Chair during a lot of the controversies and the challenges around the Greensward, so just- - Very grateful for that, Eric.

[chuckles] - Yeah.

Why now are you retiring?

- It's a great time to step off and recruit the next leader.

We're in a relatively stable position.

There are no controversies brewing.

We're looking ahead at some exciting periods of growth, and I think this is a wonderful time to have somebody with a forward vision and some fresh legs.

So, it's a good time.

- Yeah.

You are essential... Well, you are the second Executive Director.

George Cates, may he rest in peace, was the original one of the really founder, one of the founders he would say, of the Overton Park Conservancy and served in a volunteer capacity Executive Director.

There's so many things, questions, and things I can talk about and so many things I can't talk about with you on air.

But I mentioned the Greensward controversy and I mentioned it now only in two ways I wanted to talk about.

One that it is so pleasantly and wonderfully resolved and beyond resolved, where the zoo and OPC through your work and the work of other leadership at the zoo has this great relationship now.

But if you were to tell someone who knew nothing about that, someone who's watching this show, when I referenced the Greensward controversy with the zoo, how do you summarize it?

- Hmm.

Well, I would say that as the park began attracting back a large number of people to use it, as the conservancy began doing its work and renovating and reviving the park, this long-standing practice of parking on the Greensward suddenly became untenable.

Just all of a sudden, it needed to be fixed immediately.

So, a group of park users who felt very strongly about that started demanding action.

And that tipped us from being in a quiet negotiating phase, trying to find solutions into crisis management, trying to find solutions.

- And it was resolved why?

- Well, we worked at it for a very long time, trying on different solutions.

Our boards, going back and forth on what would be acceptable to both organizations.

And we ended up settling on something that was really not great for either organization, but workable.

And then, there was a change in leadership at the board, and someone with a fresh perspective came in and said, well, I think there are still some alternatives that we haven't considered.

And so, we were still willing to have those conversations and it just led to something really wonderful.

- And changes at the zoo and changes in leadership at the zoo and changes in the board at zoo.

And just a willingness because now when you look back, and I will get Bill in here a second, but when you look back, it all sounds kind of silly that we've ended up on this.

And it wasn't.

I don't mean to... Because it was...

The zoo is a great entity and an incredibly part of Memphis, and the park is really great, and the Shell and all these entities, and there's limited space and there were past decisions and past practices.

So, it wasn't silly.

But now, it is, I guess I'll put a fine point on, just say that it got resolved is again, a testament very much to you.

Because I can remember being in meetings, where people, perhaps Board Chairs, were very angry and there was so much emotion and so much frustration.

It wasn't that you weren't frustrated, but you were, everyone said, "Tina is the steady hand.

"Tina was the person who kept, 'Let's keep talking, "let's keep talking to everyone who has an opinion and a stake in this."

And so, I will leave it there with that, that your steady hand through all that as there was so much emotion was it was pretty incredible.

But let me bring in Bill Dries.

- And, Tina, you're exactly right about how quickly this all sprung up, because basically the conservancy, I think two years before the first protest, wants to do more programming.

And of course the programming area is on the Greensward, and the peak attendance for the park is the same time that you have a peak in attendance at the zoo and at the Shell and all of these things going on.

So, you wanna do this thing called a Day of Merriment.

- Merrymaking.

[laughs] - Merrymaking, I'm sorry.

- I like merriment.

- On the Greensward seems, yes, who could be against that?

And then, it's like, oh, by the way, we still need to park on the Greensward while you've got the bouncy houses and the slides and everything else on there.

And from there, it moves pretty quickly into this controversy.

Surprising?

Not surprising?

- Well, not surprising.

I mean, looking back, it's not surprising.

At the time, it felt like we were being hit by a tidal wave.

But it is not surprising that when you have a beloved green space in a relatively dense urban city, that you're eventually gonna hit a critical mass of people who wanna use it for its highest and best use.

- Mm.

- And parking had been a convenient, easy solution to a parking challenge for many, many years.

Parking on the Greensward had been that easy solution.

And really, it just, we got to the point that critical mass where we had to find a better, more appropriate solution.

So, looking back, I guess it's not surprising.

It was the inevitable trajectory.

And I probably would change some things if we could go back in time.

But I'm glad it worked out the way it did.

- Well, and also, my question about what was going on in the inside is, okay, so we have what looks like a solution and it's announced with a great deal of fanfare, and then it turns out that's not the solution.

And then, there's another one.

And it turns out that that's not the solution.

I kind of had the sense that while you're watching this, you kind of know it's not completely settled.

- Well, I secretly hoped at the time that that wasn't where we had to go.

I hoped that we could still find something.

And Eric alluded to the fact that we were willing to listen to every single person who brought an opinion to the table.

And so, a lot of good solutions came from just sitting and having coffee with park visitors who had really strong opinions and wanted to share them with me.

And some really good ideas emerged outta that.

So, some of the, I think some of the, a sense of what park visitors really wanted to see and what was important to them came out of those conversations.

So, understanding that that big track to forest land that was behind the fence was very important and would be a wonderful negotiating tactic or negotiating point, that came out of conversations with park visitors.

- Right.

It seemed as if it was a point of, okay, we've come this far, can we go a little bit further?

- Right, right.

- For those not as close to it as us, 'cause Bill reported, has been reporting this, obviously lived it, you really lived it.

The solution to the parking situation, which now seems just so great and sort of obvious, was not, there was a point at which we compromise and they were gonna come, the parking lot was gonna come a bit into the Greensward and we were gonna reconfigure and do a deck over by, to the west of the park or west of the zoo.

In the end, the solution is what?

- So, we don't give up any of the Greensward.

It remains intact.

And I'd love to come back and talk about what we're gonna do with that space.

- Yes.

We will get there.

Yes.

I promise.

- Yeah.

We get that large chunk of forest land that's behind the fence currently.

We get that back.

And add it to-- - 17 acres, 15 acres?

- I think it's probably closer to 15, because there has to be - Yeah.

- A boundary between the zoo fence and the park users.

And then, we are taking the southeast corner, which has historically been used as a maintenance yard for the City of Memphis since maybe the '30s.

- Yeah.

- And that entire property was vacated by the City of Memphis.

And we're sharing that with the zoo.

So, the zoo is moving their maintenance functions over to that space and their current maintenance facility off of North Parkway becomes new parking.

- And the general services area is what it's known as is, how many acres again?

- Yes.

- I used to know this.

- I think it's about 16 acres- - And people have driven by it many, many times and maybe not known it was there - Right.

- If you're going down, what is it, East Parkway?

- Yes.

- It's back behind the woods and it's really incredible.

It's not an incredible space right now, but when you go in there, you realize how incredible it's gonna be.

- Right.

- Let's move ahead to some of the things.

We could go through so much past of Overton Park and Overton Park Conservancy, but let's talk a bit more about things that are going forward.

What's gonna happen with those 15 acres?

There's plans around Rainbow Lake, there's plans for the southeast corner that are coming together.

We can talk about the golf course and the golf clubhouse.

Just talk about all these things that are incredible moving forward with the park, a park that I used to say, and I would say you, that when my kids were little, they're now 25.

When they were little, we didn't go to Overton Park very much.

The playgrounds weren't very nice.

It kind of was grungy.

It wasn't dangerous, it was just not inviting.

- Right.

- And that, I think people who go there now, people families, people individuals, don't have that experience at all.

And now, even more great, really interesting things are coming.

- Mm-hmm.

Yes, I'm happy to move on.

- Yeah.

[Tina laughing] - So, part of this solution I just described is just fitting in perfectly with the comprehensive plan that we've been working on for the park for several years.

And so, we will take the Greensward, we're gonna do a remediation of that hard pan soil that's been compacted by cars.

We're going to create a walking trail around the Greensward, a soft surface limestone trail that'll be great for runners, but also ADA accessible and good for strollers.

We'll add in some shaded seating areas.

So, the idea is to activate the entire Greensward, bring people all the way out to the edges of it, because the views, a lot of people don't go to the far end of the Greensward because it's a trek across some grass and it doesn't feel accessible.

But if you really start walking around it, you see beautiful views of the forest behind Rainbow Lake.

It's a great spot to just sit and watch people playing soccer, doing whatever they do on the Greensward.

So, that trail will connect with the trail around Rainbow Lake.

Eventually the lake itself is gonna be renovated and naturalized.

Right now, it's a dysfunctional concrete puddle.

So, in the future, it'll be a beautiful [Eric laughing] natural habitat with some pollinator gardens around it.

So, a really place to experience nature.

The pavilion that's adjacent to the playground there is ready to go.

So, we'll have a completely new beautiful pavilion that'll function as an outdoor classroom space, actually indoor/outdoor, because we want it to be available four seasons.

And that will be rentable space that will deliver some revenue to the Conservancy.

We'll get that 17 acre or 15-acre parcel back from behind the fence that the fence will come down.

We'll have a new trail system back there.

We're leaving part of it wild, because there is a lot of wildlife back there that's just been free to roam.

So, we wanna make sure we protect that.

And then, in the southeast corner, we'll be doing some fresh new activation, which will determine what the long-term solution is over there.

Ultimately some revenue-generating opportunities there.

- Bill.

- Yeah.

Talking about the Old Forest in particular, I know that under your tenure, you had a policy that when a tree fell, it's like, we're not gonna haul the tree out of there.

We'll take it off of the trail, but it's gonna become part of the natural setting there.

How much of an adjustment was it to take the position that there is wildlife that lives in the park?

We do have wildlife.

There are areas you probably shouldn't go in the park because we want that wildlife to continue there.

And also things like, we're gonna leave trees, because they provide shelter after they fall.

How much of an adjustment was that for regular parkgoers at the time, do you think?

- Well, it's a whole continuum.

So, there are a lot of people who are maybe amateur naturalists or naturalists who understand the value of having those nurser trees.

They benefit the entire ecosystem there, the entire life of a tree, down to its decomposition, benefits the ecosystem.

So, there are people who really focus on that.

And then, there are people who would really prefer to have a trail system that looks like a manicured lawn.

And so, we do get some feedback occasionally that the forest is too wild.

But the forest is a state natural area.

So, the state of Tennessee actually has a say in how we manage it.

We would not manage it any differently than we do, because we are all on that side of let's protect the habitat.

It has a beauty in its own.

It's a wild natural experience that you don't get in an urban area.

It's the only urban old growth forest in the southeast United States.

So, you just don't get a wild nature experience that's adjacent to the most popular bus line in the city.

- Mm-hmm.

So, how do you go about choosing which way a trail goes or what people take in on a trail?

- Well, we hired a trail designer to come in for that section of forest, and he intentionally brought the trail to some of the really interesting features that exist there naturally.

For example, there are some fallen trees that are early in their decomposition and they've created this beautiful sculpture.

So, he brings the trail close to that, so that you can see it, but then also maximizes vistas.

So, there are points where you get to see some sycamores that really stand out in the forest.

In the winter, their bright white bark.

In the fall, they just have these really big beautiful leaves.

So, taking advantage of vistas, but then also the topography tells you itself where the trail needs to go.

So, you need to avoid low spots, otherwise you're always gonna be in maintenance mode.

You wanna make sure that you're not trampling too much.

You wanna have a nice loop that people won't cross back and create new trails.

So, it has to be cohesive, - Mm-hmm.

- And make sense.

- So, do you in effect have two trail systems?

One that is the wide paved area, and then the ones that are not paved, but are clearly paths through the forest?

- Yes.

So, actually there are three systems.

- Okay.

- So, we have the paved trails and that's great for pe...

I love, my favorite day of the year to enjoy those paved trails is December 26th after kids have just gotten their brand new bikes from Santa and they're learning how to ride them.

So, there's the paved trail, there's the limestone running loop, which is a 1.4-mile loop, and obviously it gets a lot of use.

And then, we have several miles of primitive trails, and those are the nature trails.

So, those are the ones that really get you deep into the forest.

- Right.

Let's talk about Poplar and Cooper.

The intersection there, that has been a long time goal of yours to make it more friendly, - Mm-hmm.

- Much less hazardous in terms of crossing there on foot, so that people can enter the park that way.

Where is that as you leave?

- It is a long project.

We requested that the city included in a transportation funding request.

It was approved and it has been making it slow way, made it slow way through the state funding process and all of the paperwork and regulatory requirements that came along with that funding source.

And then, we've had several different project managers in the city engineer's office.

And so, it has gotten handed off a couple of times.

But it is on track.

I think the designs are being submitted for approval and we should break ground hopefully next year.

- Okay.

And part of that has been, of course, the golf course underwent this massive renovation, - Mm-hmm.

- Reconfiguration, which is the area people don't know, the borders that crossing there - Mm-hmm.

- At Poplar and Cooper, which kinda gets me to another point.

You run the Conservancy, the board runs the Conservancy, but Overton Park has other institutions in it from the Brooks to the Shell, which are governed independently.

Does that change going into the future?

- No.

If anything, it's just that those relationships with our partners get stronger and more collaborative.

They are already strong and collaborative.

Our partners meet regularly, they discuss things like shared programming, security concerns, event calendars.

So, we're in close communication with each other.

We support each other by highlighting each other's events on social media.

So, I think that over time, you'll see that relationship get stronger and more organized.

We've talked about joint advocacy, large-scale funding requests, so that's the direction that's going.

Most recently, I'm really proud of this, we had a joint summer camp.

We partnered with an organization, Carpenter Art Garden in Binghampton, and we brought their participants over to the park every day for a week.

And each day, they went to a different organization and had a different park experience.

So, you had nature, zoo, music, art, it was a lot of fun.

- Is there... Because I've heard the different organizations talk about what they're doing in terms of security.

Is there a point at which Overton Park and its institutions should you think have a common security force or a common security presence across the entire park?

- Maybe.

Because we are collaborating now on conversations around security.

Ultimately, Memphis Police Department maintains responsibility for public safety in Overton Park.

It's a free and open public park.

So, it is unlikely that we're going to invest in a large-scale security force.

It's just not, in my opinion, the best use of resources.

The park is safe, our data bear out the fact that you're safer in the park than you are in any of the neighborhoods that surround the park.

There are fewer incidents in Overton Park.

But we will continue to collaborate with our park partners and we do hire security for specific functions like Day of Merrymaking for traffic control.

And in those kinds of situations, we probably would have, we would coordinate it with our park partners.

- With six minutes left, you mentioned the free and open park thing, and I always joke about, but it's not a joke, that the challenge of running a nonprofit, it's a independent nonprofit, the Conservancy is that manages the city-owned park as a, what, I dunno, a long-term lease, to do that.

Its mission is to be a free and open park with a million-dollar a year budget that there's $150,000 I think it is, that comes from the city that is part going to maintenance and upkeep and all that kind of thing.

But that balancing act is no small thing when how many visitors to the park every year?

- 1.4 million last year, I believe.

- Does that include all the entities?

- That's according to our visitor counter, so yes, yes.

- Through the gate or through onto the park.

So, they might be going to the zoo, might be going wherever.

- Yes.

- Yeah.

That's a huge challenge.

And it's all fundraising, The bulk of it is fundraising.

We talk about, you mentioned revenue opportunities of rentals and so on, and that helps.

But to be a free open park means you need donations, grants, foundations, and so on.

- Right.

Our budget was relatively flat for about 10 years, and we've recently grown it a bit, because inflation and the increase in visitorship brings an increase in costs.

And so, our fundraising is having to keep pace with that.

Our allocation from the city has remained relatively flat.

So, part of our advocacy effort will be to get our city, county, state, and federal government to contribute.

- I mentioned before that, again, when my kids were little, the park was not welcoming really.

It was a beautiful space, but not really, didn't have good restrooms and all the kinds of things that families want and individuals want, and so on.

And at that time, 25 years ago, there was no Greenline, there was no, Tom Lee Park hadn't been done.

There weren't the connections and the bike paths over the river and all this sort of greening.

So, from big picture, Overton Park was one of the first, not the first out.

Greenline was really early.

Your take now on Memphis as a whole, the region as a whole, in terms of their take on green spaces and connectedness, it's a lot different, but maybe with a long ways to go?

- Yeah, that's a great way to characterize it.

I think, Shelby Farms Park was a pioneer.

- Of course, yes.

- We modeled our Conservancy a little bit after theirs.

And then, as the city began adding these green spaces and trails, and now that Tom Lee Park is online, I think that, so when Jenny Andrews and Carol Coletta and I get together, we talk about how do we use the work that we've done to lift up a desire for better parks in Memphis.

We need to make that a priority for our city.

Great cities have great parks, so we're on our way.

We do have a lot of work to do.

I know that we had a large infusion of money from the Accelerate Memphis program.

And so, we've seen some renovation in the other parks across town.

And I think that that will just continue to increase momentum towards becoming a greener city.

- Just, Bill, just three minutes left here.

- Do we as Memphians, have different expectations of Overton Park and use it differently than we did before all of this started happening?

- Absolutely.

I was in the park yesterday.

I rode my bike to work and I just did a park inspection at the end of the day.

And 12 years ago, it would've been pretty empty on a Thurs-, was it Wednesday afternoon?

And it was thriving.

There were so many people.

There was a couple that looked like they were on a date and he was teaching her how to ride a skateboard.

And there were families on the playgrounds.

It was thriving and bustling.

There's always been a strong culture at Overton Park.

There were a few intrepid souls who were running the trails even when the park didn't feel safe and welcoming.

But now, it feels so inviting and it's just thriving.

- We've seen the development of some apartments on the eastern side of the park on the other side of East Parkway, where you have the wonderful bicycle gate, I call it.

- Mm-hmm.

- Did you think you would see that kind of development around the park?

Did you hope for that?

- I absolutely thought that that would be the case.

Yes.

You see it happen in cities across the country.

You invest in parks and real estate follows, which means property taxes go up.

There's investment in the core of the city.

Investment in parks is a great investment in your city.

So, yes, I expected that.

- Just the minute left, Lucia Gilliland, who was a founding board member, passed away recently, a couple weeks ago, as this airs.

She was amazing.

I knew her on the board.

She was very reserved.

When she spoke, she had a point.

She was very funny and a quiet, if you sat next to her at a board meeting, she'd lean over and say funny things you can't repeat on TV, and all that.

And I did not know until she passed away, and people should look at the bio that Jane Roberts did for Daily Memphian, the obit, I should say, I didn't know she'd done all those things.

She was one of the most selfless, humble people that I had no idea all those things.

But thoughts would be a minute on Lucia and the impact she had on the park.

- Oh, wow.

When I was on my ride yesterday riding through the forest, I was having a quiet moment of grief.

Lucia and I were a team.

I learned so much from her about how to build alliances and build relationships.

And the forest was really special and meaningful to her.

And she brought so many people in to see it.

And she formed the basis upon which we grew our advocacy and our relationships with donors.

- Yeah, she was an amazing person.

Tina, thanks.

I was gonna ask you what next, but we're out of time and I don't think you'd answer that question anyway.

I think you said, you told Jane Roberts that you're doing a big vacation.

Much deserved.

Thank you.

And we'll see you soon.

Thank you, Bill.

And thank you all for joining us.

Recent shows we've had, Frederick Agee, a district attorney from the rural counties around Memphis.

A really interesting conversation.

You can get that at wkno.org.

And coming up soon, Paul Young, in a couple of weeks, the Memphis Mayor, as well as Marie Feagins, School Superintendent, a couple weeks.

You'll be able to get all those at wkno.org.

You can get the podcasts of the show wherever you get your podcasts.

Thanks very much and we'll see you next week.

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