Dubai, countries are racing against the clock.# More than 100 countries, including the U.S.,## the U.K. and Australia, are pushing for a# firm commitment to stop the use of coal,## oil and gas, after earlier drafts advocated# for eventually phasing out fossil fuels.

Michael Mann has been among those climate# experts critical of what's happened at## this summit.

He's the director# of the Penn Center for Science,## Sustainability and the Media at the University of# Pennsylvania.

His ne How Lessons from Earth's Past Can# Help Us Survive the Climate Crisis."

Michael Mann, welcome back to the "NewsHour."

DR. MICHAEL MANN, University of GE OFF BENNETT: You co-wrote an op-ed in The L.A.# Times meet this moment demanding dramatic and immediate# climate action; it has made a caricature of it.

In what ways?

DR. MICHAEL MANN: Well, OK,# first of all, the host coun United Arab Emirates, is a fossil# fuel sta And the president of COP 28,# appointed by the host, is,## in fact, an oil executive.

And so there are# reasons to be skeptical from the very start,## given just those plain facts, and everything# we have seen since, the fact that -- again,## that the president of COP 28 has been using# language claiming that there's no science to## back up the need to phase out fossil fuels,# when, of course, the science overwhelmingly## indicates we have to bring carbon emissions# down dramatically to avert catastrophic warming.

And he even used climate-denier tropes,# like we will all be back in the caves## if we make a clean energy transition.

And so# the fact that we haven't seen much progress,## we have seen other petro states like# Saudi Arabia now say that there's no## way that they will agree to language# to phase out fossil fuels -- in fact,## they won't even agree to language to phase down,# whatever that means, to phase down fossil fuels.

And so there's a lot of pessimism# right now that a few bad apples are## spoiling the possibility of a meaningful# agreement, as this window of opportunity## is closing.

If we don't see progress# now, it becomes increasingly difficult## to see a way to keep warming below a# catastrophic three degrees Fahrenheit.

GEOFF BENNETT: And yet these COP summits,# they're the only venue for global c change negotiations.

So what's a better# path forward?

What reforms are needed?

DR. MICHAEL MANN: Yes, that's right.

And so w it is the only multilateral framework we# have for global climate negotiations.

And## polluters would like nothing more than to see# the U.N. conference of the parties disappear.

What we do need is to mend# it, not end it.

We argue,## for example, that we can't allow a single# country like Saudi Arabia to prevent the## agreement from passing.

And so there should# be something instead like a supermajority;## 75 percent of participating countries have to# agree to a particular resolution for it to pass.

But you can't have a system where one bad actor# like Saudi Arabia can block any progress at## all.

That's where we are right now.

And# there need to be penalties.

In the past,## the enforcement mechanism was called name and# shame.

For countries who don't make a g effort to participate in the negotiations,# you call them out.

You try to shame them.

But some of these countries, like Saudi Arabia,## have shown they have no shame.

And so essentially are trying to prevent any# meaningful progress from taking place.

GEOFF BENNETT: Understanding that critics# have made -- they have made the point that## oil interests have co-opted COP, there# are any number of coun completely phasing out fossil fuels hurts them# economically and puts them at a disadvantage.

Do they have a point?

DR. MICHAEL MANN: Well, we no# longer kill whales for whale## oil because something better came along.# That was fossil fuels two centuries ago.

And now something else has come along, something# better has come along, clean energy.

What we need## to do is to provide the incentives for developing# countries to leapfrog past the fossil fuel stage## of their economic development.

We can't afford# for them to make the same mistakes we made.

So we have got to provide assistance to# help developing countries develop clean## energy infrastructure.

It's win-win.# Clean energy means a better planet,## a better environment, more jobs.

There# are far more jobs available in clean## energy installation than there are in the# largely automated fossil fuel industry.

And we also know that petro states tend to be# authoritative states, antidemocratic countries.## And so all of the things that we would like# to see, more widespread democracy, a cleaner## environment, good jobs, clean jobs for people,# all of that is favored by a proactive effort## to transition.

We're not talking about sort of# stopping all fossil fuel production cold turkey.

What we're talking about is a steady transition,## bringing carbon emissions down 50 percent# this decade, bringing them by mid-century.

And we have the technology# to do that, renewable energy, solar, wind,## geothermal.

We don't need new technology.

We just# need the political will to make this transition.

GEOFF BENNETT: Michael Mann, thanks,# as always, for your insights.

DR. MICHAEL MANN: Thank you.