When I was 15 I sat my mother down at the kitchen table, I knew what she thought I was going to tell -her.

I said, Mommy, I got to -tell you something.

She said, -Oh, shit.

-!I came across Tiq Milan by way -!of a story he told at the moth -story hour back in 2022 it's -titled Miss Mary, and the -description of it says, Tiq -Milan keeps an important -secret from his mother.

-I said, Wait a minute.

Wait a -!minute.

Wait a minute.

I'm not -pregnant.

I'm gay.

-That secret led to an -incredibly honest, raw and -beautiful exploration of his -fears of losing his mother's -love and acceptance.

You -should check it out.

But it -!was honestly the first line of -the whole story that floored -me.

Tiq starts Miss Mary -with this line, I was my -mother's fourth daughter.

-Years after coming out to his -mother as a lesbian, Tiq -would come out to her as a -trans man in his early 20s -ahead of undergoing chest -reconstruction surgery.

-I think the moment when I -started to understand that I -!was a trans man was when I was -working at a bar in New York -City.

It was in my early 20s, -a lesbian bar called Meow -Mix.

This guy walks in, and -he starts throwing these -flyers on the table, right?

I -look at the flyer, and it's a -!picture of him, and he has his -!arms crossed around his chest, -and it says, ta, ta, TAs.

You -know, top surgery fundraiser -for this guy.

I had never met -a trans man before that -moment.

It was like, it -!clicked.

I was like, Oh, shit.

-That's that's what this is, -just that's who I am.

-I wanted to talk with Tiq -because since his transition -and since that story he told -!at the moth, his communication -around the non monolithic -trans person has only gotten -clearer.

His megaphone has -only gotten louder, and his -advocacy for the LGBTQ plus -community has become not only -his profession, but his -calling.

-I'm a Leadership and -Development strategist.

I've -also been a media strategist.

-I'm an LGBT advocate and -activist, and I've been doing -that work for for about two -decades now, really working -!towards creating a culture and -a life that looks like love -and acceptance for for trans -people, and I've got to do -that in myriad ways, through -youth, work through media, -work through leadership, and -!also through the church, a man -!of the people trying to trying -to make things a little -better, I think.

-I also want to talk to Tiq -!because selfishly, admittedly, -!I want to learn how to talk to -Tiq or or someone like him.

-And I'm not talking person to -person, man to woman, or cis -woman to trans man.

I want to -talk to him as someone who -works in the media, who has a -job to do when it comes to -platforming these necessary -conversations.

-I think that the media is is -missing its mark on covering -these issues, particularly -when it comes to the trans -issue of trans folks in the -athletics, trans folks in -bathrooms, really get it -under, under why all of a -sudden, the people who are -!less than 2% of the population on the whole planet, we talk about the margins there are more -redheaded people in the world -than there are transgender -!people, as far as we know.

How did this become the cause du jour?

How did we become the -!boogeyman of everything like I -think what's happening?

The -journalists are asking the -wrong questions.

-From Vermont public.

This is -homegoings, a show that -invites you to eavesdrop on -candid conversations with -!people who will challenge what -you think.

You know, I'm Myra -Flynn, today a conversation -with trans rights activist -Tiq Milan about his journey -towards living in the body he -was meant to live in, and how -protection for him and other -!members of the queer community -means holding the media -accountable.

This is home- -goings.

We're a proud member of the NPR Network.

Welcome home.

I came to you by way -!of this piece you did with the -moth, and I just found it to -!just be pretty, breathtakingly -beautiful.

And according to -like the comment section, so -did a lot of people.

So I'm -not alone in that feeling.

I -hope you're feeling proud of -that, because it's nice when -!the internet, like leads me to -you because of something like -that.

Can you tell us a story -of how you of how you found -yourself and you came into -your own identity as a trans -man today?

-Yeah, well, you know, I think -oftentimes people think that -trans folks, that we're a -monolith, that we all -understand ourselves to be -trans at a very, very young -age.

And I didn't, I don't, -you know, I this is, you talk -!about the late 80s, early 90s, -when I'm a little kid, and, -you know, I have a mother -who's a nurse and a dad who's -a mechanic in Buffalo, we're -just regular, like, you know, -working class, blue collar -people.

This idea of -transness wasn't even a -reality, you know.

So it wasn't something that I thought was possible, or -anybody in my family thought -was possible, but I knew that -I liked what the boys liked.

-When I was seven, my mother -bought me this strawberry -shortcake bicycle.

Oh, it was -strawberry shortcake, yeah, -okay, Strawberry Shortcake -bike, and they had the pink -and was, you know, pink, very -!girly, super girly.

And I just -knew I wasn't riding that -bicycle.

I saw it.

I'm like, -no, wait a day.

No, wait in -hell.

I'm riding this bike up -down Street, in front of my -friends.

I can't.

I myself in -my soul necessarily lies.

I -can't do it.

And so I got my -dad, and my Daddy, Mommy -bought me the wrong bike, and -!he took it back, and he got me -a boy bike.

It was like no -questions, asked me a black -bike or had the orange, like -!lightning stripe on it, and he -put the noise makers on the -spokes and had the hard seat -!that I hurt your butt, and had -!the straight bar, man, listen, -Pops, hooked -!me up.

He knew.

He knew.

Yeah, -I didn't know, -but it just, I just knew me -!and that bike weren't aligned.

Y'all were not gonna be friends, yeah?

And also, just -like strawberry shortcake and -!like rainbow bright, just some -of these characters that were -from that time, the 80s, -right?

Just so girly, just so -!extra, and my little pony, all -!of them extra so girly, the care -!bears, yes, I feel like, as you -know, a femme identifying kid -!I was also that would have not -been my bike of choice.

-No, I like Transformers and -Matchbox cars and -Nintendo.

So back there was, -oh, you know, takes a tomboy, -so whatever.

But you know, -what did that?

The thing that -!really allowed me to come into -my own, particularly -!reflecting on my childhood, is -that my parents always just -allowed me to be me.

They -never tried to force me into -anything.

I was never -chastised or shamed because I -liked boy clothes, because I -!like more masculine things.

So -!I think I was just at the very -beginning.

I was just given a -foundation to just allow -myself to be myself.

But I -think the moment when I -started to understand that I -!was a trans man was when I was -working at a bar in New York -City.

It was in my early 20s, -!a lesbian bar called Meow Mix.

-Shout out to meow mix.

And -this guy walks in, and he starts throwing these flyers on the table, right?

And he's throwing a party here next week.

Put the flyers out.

Like, yeah, no problem.

So he puts -the flyers out.

I look at the -flyer, and it's a picture of -him, and he has his arms -crossed around his chest, and -it says, ta, ta, TAs.

You -know, surgery, a top surgery -!fundraiser for this guy.

I had -never met a trans man before -!that moment.

And so when I met -him and I saw the flyer, it -was like, it clicked.

I was -like, oh shit, that's that's -what this is, just that's who -I am.

Because I was -progressively becoming more -uncomfortable with people -seeing me and calling me she, -and recognizing me as a woman -in the world.

You know, it -just didn't feel good.

It -wasn't like I hated myself, -but just it didn't feel there -was a deep like incongruence.

-!There was a misalignment with, like, what people perceive my reality is and what I perceive it is.

That's amazing.

Yeah, you were like a -media writer for the -!documentary disclosure, right?

-That's out on Netflix.

-We've been around since there -was footage.

You just have to -look for us.

Can -we all just talk about DW -Griffith for a minute.

Not -only is he incredibly racist, -but he turned gender non -conforming people into the -joke.

So it's like, you can't have like queer trans people and blackness in the same space at the same time.

So what's to -say about my queer, trans -black ass?

Yeah, and I did help with the writing, some of the research, and I -executive produced another -documentary, The aggressives -Part Two is out on Showtime.

-So shout out to the Aggressives Check us out.

I love it.

I love it.

There was somebody who said -something really poignant -about representation in disclosure that really stood out to me, which was like, in -order for me to be in this -!world, I have to see myself in -this world first.

And so when -you're talking about that -flyer is that kind of what -happened for you, where you -were just like, oh, I finally -see myself represented, and -you had never even seen a -!photo with somebody having top -surgery before, previous -I didn't know that it was -possible to come into this world as a girl and leave as a man.

I didn't know -that that was a thing.

You -know, that that there were people like me, people who were differently gendered, like me, and so yeah, representation is -important because you want to -see yourself reflected, but I -think more importantly, it's -also making sure that we have -models of possibility for our -!future, particularly for those -of us who are who sit at the -intersections of marginalized -identities, who often aren't -centered, our representation, -our love, how we look, how we -live, How we think, none of those things are said.

Important that we see that -representation so that we can -feel possible and lean into -the possibility of the -uniqueness of ourselves.

-I'm curious how it felt to be -visible in all of these -!different ways, to identify as -a lesbian, to identify as a -trans man.

I mean, these are -some these are some swings in -identity.

To you that not a -lot of people get to -experience like, how did that -feel to you?

-!It felt I guess it feels fine.

-I think that even though it -has been hard, being a trans -!person is not easy, and having -to deal with people's -ignorances and things like -!that, it can be hard.

However, -!at the same time, I have had a -unique experience of being -able to live in this world at different points on the gender spectrum and -treated differently and -understanding like what that -looks like to be treated -differently as a when I was -like young, I was very -feminine and my my teenage -years, so I went to all girl -private schools.

I was very familiar with models.

Had to do all that, and then being a -tomboy as a little kid, and -then being just like this -butch lesbian.

And here, I -think what I've taken away -from all these experiences is -I've learned how people -interact with you differently -at these different spaces in -life, particularly in the -context of how you present -feminine or masculine or man -!or woman, there's a difference -in how people approach you, a -different energy, like the -love and the relationships -!I've built throughout my life, -!how, like, the sisterhood that -I created, you know, prior to -transition, is something -that's been so important to -who I am now as a native, and -I don't, I don't get to do that anymore, because I'm not, I'm not that, and I shouldn't -be able to.

So I think, you -!know, people deserve exclusive -spaces when you particularly -!marginalized groups.

So that's -not a space for me anymore.

-!But you know the vulnerability -and the capacity to love and -hold space for vulnerability -and hold space for complex -emotions within a complex and -within a platonic -relationship, and see people -with their wholeness, is -something that I learned from -the women in my life, you -know.

And now you know, and I've learned a lot from the men in my life.

-being you know, I spent half -of this life as a woman and -!half as a as the man that I am -of transition.

I was 22 Wow, -!yeah, so I'm in my 40s now, so -!really was like a whole, like, -split in half, you know?

So -the advantage is that I've -learned a lot about the human -capacity and the human -complexity, because I've been -a part of it.

And I think I I know how to hold space for people who are -!different.

Hold a lot of space -to allow myself to be a man, -be a masculine person in this -!world.

I still have a capacity -for vulnerability and love.

I -don't really shy away from my -feelings too much.

Not to say -that I'm perfect, I'm some -kind of unicorn, because I'm -not.

I just -think it does sound super -human.

It sounds like like -it's only enhanced, like your -humanity writ large, to be -able to have had both -experiences, I -think so.

I think so.

Here's -the thing, I think that me as -a trans person has allowed me -to have it, to expand my -perspective and my love and -!empathy for how people show up -in this world differently, -right?

But you don't have to -be a transgender person to -have that experience of expansiveness, of your empathy -and your love for other -people, you just have to be -intentional about wanting to -change right to be wanting to -change for for your for your -betterment, for you to be -!better.

And for me, the change -was I had to transition in -order for me to be my most -!idealized self, for me to feel -closer to God, spiritually, -for me to feel like I was -aligned with who I am in this -!world, that's the thing.

And I -think we all can, can do it.

-There's that space of -expansiveness and empathy -doesn't just belong to those -of us on the margins.

We all -have an obligation to do it.

-You -!there doesn't seem to be equal -representation of trans -masculine people in media, -!depicted in media and film and -television, as there is in -trans feminine when there is -that trans masculine person -!depicted, I I tend to see them -being, like, shamed for -leaving their femininity -behind, or that, like, in -!order to turn masculine, you'd -have, you have to get square -with like, anti feminism was -any like, I think about Max -and the L word, right, when -Max transitioned and was just -all of a sudden, this, like, -raging, I don't know, asshole -character, all of a sudden, -because scientisto, it was -such a cartoon version of a -human being.

But I do -remember, like, this scene of -of of him also being, like, -shamed for, like, Why?

Why Why would you why would you want to become a manual like you're leaving behind the most beautiful -!thing, which is to be a woman.

-And I just wondered, were you -ever shamed in this way?

Did -you ever experience that?

-That's you know, first, can I -!just say stuff like that?

It's -just so basic.

It's just I -hate it.

-Yes, you can say, Yes, please -do.

-It's just not that.

It's not -that simple.

I don't know.

I -can't say that I was shamed, -not really, but I can't say that at the beginning, because early on.

So -this is like, 204, or five -trans people weren't we weren't as visible, I don't think there was the -same, like, nuanced and like -understandings of us, right?

-So.

And like, lesbian -community, women community, -women's community can be -really, like, protective of -itself and insular, you know.

-So I do feel like I wasn't necessarily shamed, but I do feel like there were people in -my life who felt like there -!was a betrayal, you know, like -shame me to my face.

Nobody -ever questioned me, nobody ever said that to me.

I think there's enough, -like, love and respect for me -and amongst each other.

But -I'm sure they were probably -some conversations when I -wasn't around.

But there -definitely was this, this -aspect of, yeah, folks are -being, like, betrayed, as if, -as if being a woman wasn't -good enough, and it has -nothing to do with that.

You -know, like, being a woman is -good for women, not a woman -for me.

And that's just, -that's just what it is.

You -know, it's not, it's not as -basic of a choice as this -thing is better because it's -inherently better because I'm -drinking like the patriarchal -Kool Aid.

It's like, No, this -thing is better because this -is, this is aligned with my -spirit, with who I am, and it -doesn't take away from who I -was, or take away from who -other people are, I just had -to get right with me, you -know.

And I think, you know, -I've had those conversations -without it having to be -without the pretext of the -question.

So I think I've -tried to answer that for -people before they could even -go there with me.

You know, -you're so clear eyed, like -just on this topic, or I'd -imagine anything.

I'd imagine -if I asked you, like, what kind of socks are your favorite socks, you'd be like, -very clear eyed in your -!response.

Have you always been -this way?

-I think so.

I you know, I -appreciate that.

I appreciate -that a lot.

I try to.

I don't -know if I've always been this -way.

Let me not lie.

-Okay.

Go Live, please.

-Don't get me the line.

Okay, -!okay, I'll be honest though.

I think in the last couple years, as I've gotten older, -!as I started therapy, going to -therapy has been really super -helpful.

I think in just the -!the wisdom and the passions of -!time, I've dealt with a lot of -loss and hardship and trauma -in my life.

You know, despite -having, like, beautiful -community relationships, I've -lost a lot of grieved a lot, -and I think once you've gone -through a level of trauma and -grief, you could come out on -the other end of it saying, -and okay, and still, like -having a love for people in -!life, it does something to you -that gives you some some -clarity, I think.

And I think -being able to go to therapy and really get under my -emotions really, like, -excavate why I feel this way, -or why I behave the way I do, -and giving myself some grace -for that has also allowed me -to be clearer with who I am -!and and what I my expectations -of myself, my expectations of -other people, you know, so -it's so I think that -clearness, yes, is, it is the -thing, but it's a real thing.

-It's it's not just a I'm just -!a cool guy.

No, I went through -!some shit, and I had to put in -!some work, and I had to put in -some work intentionally so -that I can be here and be -clear and be okay.

Yeah, -you've earned it.

-Can you tell me how you came -to do this as as your work?

-You know, I've always, I've -always been a communicator.

I -think it's just the way I've -operated in the world ever -!since I was a kid.

You know, I -was class president and I -used to do poems and shit -in High School.

Career wise, throughout my life, that's been the through line, -!whether I was doing like media -strategy, or working as a -journalist, or even like the -development work that I do, -and I've always been really -focused on, you know, -advocating for my people, you -know, for LGBT people.

The -thing that I've learned about -!this work in all the ways that -I've done it, the bottom line -is, like, the storytelling, -right?

The bottom line is -!being able to tell people your -experience in this life and -!who you are.

Every last one of -us has a story that somebody -needs to hear.

There's -!somebody or lots of somebodies -in this world that need to -hear about how you overcame, -what you overcame, about your -!challenges, about who you are, -about the complexity of your -!human condition.

So for me, as -!a black trans man who's also a -father, it was also a -Christian who have all of these different identities.

-People don't think it's -!impossible for you to have all -!of those things and exist, but -!it is possible, because here I -am, and let me tell you how I don't have to be out as a trans person.

I could walk in -nobody knows I'm trans.

-Outside world, you know, -!saying I got I have, you know, -!associates who don't know that -!I'm trans.

My landlord doesn't -know that I'm trans.

You know -what I'm saying?

Like, people -don't have to know.

But I -!choose to really be open about -!it.

I choose to tell my story, -all the vulnerabilities, all -the hard parts, and hopefully -!give it somebody like the hope -and inspiration that they can tell their stories.

-Yeah, like high level -communication, I think, is -something that not everybody -you know excels in.

And so if -you can, you must, and you -!shall.

And it's really nice to -see somebody who, like, owns, -like, No, I'm really good at -!communicating.

So that's how I -arrived here.

I'm like, Yeah, -that makes sense.

And you're -saying, like, your your -landlord doesn't know that -you're trans.

Like.

Nobody's -business, clearly.

But also, -I'm assuming this is because -!you are passing like 100% as a -!black man.

Yeah.

I guess, like -black men are going through -some some shit in this -country, as you know, -!regarding their own tropes and -stereotypes.

Have you dealt -with any of that along your journey?

Yeah, no one knows that I'm trans.

-!Outside of, like, always said, -!like, I'm, like, queer famous, -you know, saying, so folks -outside of, like, the queer bubble the queer world, they don't know who I am, and they -don't care, you know, so -people do perceive me just as -a everyday, cisgender, -heterosexual black man in the -world.

And so I have to deal -with, what, with all that -!comes with that, for sure, for -sure.

You know, -hops and like, like, like, -what are we talking about?

-!Harassment?

I've been harassed -by cops two different -occasions, just just, you -!know, just ridiculous.

I don't -!want to get into it, but just, like, pull me out the car.

Just to regular, just regular -shit.

You know, NYPD just -doing what they do.

But we'll -!say there's not a whole lot of -overtly awful or -discriminatory or harmful -things, right?

But there's I -!do walk with that anxiety.

You -know, I really do not mess -!with the police.

I do not like -the cops.

I don't feel safe -around them.

I don't I don't -want to be around them.

I -!don't want my loved ones being -around them.

I don't want to -!be anywhere near them.

I don't -want to live near them.

I'm -just being straight up -percent.

They make the -fearful, because I know that -they take my life and justify -it.

If people want to go out -!and go to protest, and they'll -give my family $500,000 in -three years, but I'm dead and -gone from nothing, and I'm -!gonna and you got to forget my -name in 10 years.

Like it's -it.

To know that that can -!happen to me, gives me quite a -bit of anxiety.

You know what I'm saying?

I'll walk with that every day, but -that'll but, you know, I walk -with that anxiety, but it -doesn't.

It's not, it doesn't -lead me.

You know what I'm -saying.

It's something that's -a part of me, but it's not in -the driver's seat ever.

You -!know that fearfulness isn't in -the driver's seat ever?

You -know, but it's, you know, but -it's there.

It's totally -there.

But I think you know -what I try to do as a black -man in the world, and the conversations I try to have with other black men, -particularly those who aren't -trans or aren't gay, are to -think about the expectations -we have of ourselves in the -context of our gender and our -race.

What do we expect from -!ourselves as men in the world, -in our communities?

And to -think about those things and -!to live to those expectations, -!you know, so, yeah, experience -it.

It's like a yes and okay, -like it is, like, I don't -dwell on it.

Is what it is.

I -!just try to think about how to -negotiate around it and be -better about it, and to keep -myself protected and, you -know, stay brave in the face -of, in the face of such violence.

Absolutely, yeah.

I mean, -there was a time when we had -!our baby, she was a newborn.

I -didn't want, I didn't want my -husband going out to even get -diapers, because, you know, -the the streets were so heavy -and so spicy and so riotous -!and and so much was happening.

-And so, yeah, I think it's -scary, yeah.

We made an -episode called it's scary.

-!Yeah, yeah.

We made an episode -called black men, how are you -doing?

And it took forever to -get these black men to even -give an answer and to find, -you know, it was always like, -!Well, God is good, and like, I -!keep praying, and all of these -!things, except, like answering -the question, until finally, -like, one was just like, No, -I'm scared.

I'm scared.

Yeah, -see, I don't -!like that either, particularly -as a Christian, you know, -saying, don't use God in -!prayer as a way to as a way to -not be accountable to how you -show up in the world.

And don't use that as a way not to face your fears.

Because -!you can, you can pray all day.

-!Listen, I'm a praying ass man.

I pray every day.

But I could -!pray yesterday.

Gonna save me.

-Praying is not going to save -me from what's our way out -here in this world.

Man, the -prayers give you the inner -strength and the guidance to -get through it, to give you -the, you know, the bravery to get through it.

But you can't just, you can't just pray to hate away.

You can't just pray the injustice away.

That's not -how it works.

You know, you -can't just praying for the -!clarity or strength you gotta, -you gotta work towards that, -that kind of -thing.

To that note, we are -right now seeing all sorts of -like, anti trans legislation -proposals really ramping up, -and the media like, you know -!us, you're a journalist, I'm a journalist like, has the opportunity to really shine a -!light on some of these things.

-Do you feel like the media is -missing the mark, or is it -doing its job?

-Media is missing its mark, -particularly when it comes to -the to the trans issue of -trans folks in the athletics, -trans folks in bathrooms, -!really get it under, under Why -all of a sudden, the people -who are less than 2% of the population on the planet.

We talk about the -margins of the margins, there -are more redheaded people in the world than there are transgender people.

How did this become the cause du jour?

How did we become the boogeyman of everything?

I think what's -!happening?

The journalists are -asking the wrong questions, they're asking the questions again.

That's going to keep this new cycle going.

-It's going to.

Keep the -conversation going, you know, -!saying it's going to rage bait -!people.

But are you asking the -right conversations to actually get to the truth of the matter?

Truth of -!the matter is that this is old -bait and switch.

This is you -look at, look at these great -!people over here.

These people -over here are so crazy while -everything that you have worked for and you think that -you deserve in this world has been taken away by your government and by these, these policies -right where we're seeing a -shift towards, you know, in -our culture, that is going to be to the detriment of certain people, -particularly women, you know, -!got rid of Roe versus Wade.

There's so many other things that are -happening, and yeah, just all -!this legislation is happening, -but the legislation against -trans people and treating 2% -of the population as if we're -the boogeyman, as if we just got here.

You know, news flash -folks, trans people have been -here for 1000s.

You've been -going to the bathroom next to -trans people.

We've been on -!your teams.

We've been in your -families, but somebody, but -the but the but the media -machine has told us that this -!is what we need to be focusing -on.

And the problem is, is -that when people really start -to understand kind of the -!cultural trajectory that we're -on.

It always starts with the -most marginalized of us first -!to see how much cruelty we can -tolerate.

So if you could do -this to black trans women, -okay, so now this, and now this, and before you know it, we're in a full, -!full on, like fascist, kind of -!like dictatorship.

This is how -it happens.

I think -journalists, not only do we -create the culture, but we -document the culture, but we -also create it.

-But on this note, because, I -mean, you would not be the -first to say that so many of -these issues being raised are -a distraction from other -things going on, but to also -!like to say yes.

And also, you -know, for less than 2% of the -population in America being -trans.

The media has depicted -trans folks over and over and -over again.

I think about -Silence of the Lambs.

I think -about Alfred Hitchcock's -bizarre obsession with all of -these murderers being like -these sick trans people, or -not even trans like, who knows?

Who knows what's -!happening?

But there has to be -something going on that's a -man with a dress and some -makeup, and they're killing -!somebody.

And so it has been a -part of our our culture and -!our media culture for a while.

-I guess.

What I want to ask -you is, like, how did it go -from that, from trans -!identity, going from from that -to something that life was -!already depict depicted pretty -horribly, to being, like, at -!the center of our culture wars -in in a way, when there's so -few, there's so few trans folks in America, I think think there's a couple of things going on.

First, you're right.

The depiction of trans -!people within our in media has -been awful, particularly we -!talk about, like, our creative -media.

So like, the depiction -of the humanity of trans -!people has always been like we -said, killers, mentally ill, -!you name it.

They did it to us -right now we're talking about -the news media.

How is the -news media supposed to be -objective and supposed to -reflect back, like the -experiences in the world?

You -know, that looks different, -!too.

So I think, how do we end -up here?

This is how I think -that we ended up here.

Yeah, -2014 Katie Couric and Carmen -Carrera were on the Katie -Couric show in 2014 Laverne -Cox and Carmen Carrera on -Katie Couric and Katie asked -Carmen about her genitals.

-Your private parts are -different now, aren't they, -!and Carmen's mortified, right?

-!And kind of just like, I don't -want to talk about that, -right?

So next segment, -Laverne comes on, so lavar -comes on, is like, I just, -let's just go back to that -with Carmen.

And let me tell -you why that's messed up, -right?

So she said, Well, we -focus on bodies.

We don't get -to focus on the lived reality -of transgender people.

And -then she goes to talk about -this young woman named Elon -!nettles, who was murdered that -!summer because she was walking -!down the streets.

And this got -!called by a group of guys when -they realized that she was -trans, they beat her and took -home and she died.

Right?

So Laverne said that when we talk about -bodies, we don't get to talk -about the lived reality, and -this is the lived reality of -so many trans people.

So that -moment in media switch right -!after that, Laverne was on the -cover of Time, and she talked -!about the trans tipping point, -!right so now, now, around this -!time, I was working at glav, I -was a senior strategist of -trans men media there, and -head of national trans news -there, and so part of my job was to talk to people in media and say this is how you -document the lived experience -!of trans people.

Stop worrying about what's in between people's legs.

Stop worrying -about people's medical -history.

Let's have more -nuanced conversations about -their experience.

So I was doing that work.

She was doing that work, and we -started to see a shift in how -the media was talking to us -and about us.

It started to -get a little bit better.

-Started to see getting right.

-So it's like this pendulum -started Katie, Katie Couric.

-Katie Couric also, like, -apologized, right?

And, like, -kind of owned her shit a little bit from that.

-Yes.

Oh my god, left out the -thing of the story.

So that -happens.

Then couple weeks -later, Kay Kirk had me and -Laverne and Chase Strangio, -!who's at the ACLU shout out to -chase.

She does really great -work over there, an attorney -there.

She had us back on the -!show, and we didn't talk about the.

Doctors.

We didn't talk about bodies.

We talked about -!the experience of trans people -in the world.

Those were the -!those were the tipping points, -right?

I think when Laverne did that and then Katie brought us back onto that show -!her being on the cover of Time -!Magazine, all the work that we -were doing at GLAD started to -!shift how the media started to -talk about us.

They started -talking about us in a more -like holistic, full way.

It -wasn't, definitely was not -perfect, but it got better.

-And I think now that pendulum -started to swing.

We became, -even though it was only 2% of -us, we came a little bit too, -too visible.

We started to be -humanized, a little too much -for some conservatives and -!some for some folks right.

And -also think that there's a lot -of like racism that goes into -this too, but that's a whole -nother conversation.

So I -think how we've arrived here -with all of these power with -!all these policies, is that as the cultural pendulum swings, you have folks who are a super -minority of 2% who you were -fine with just being in the -dark and in the closet and -being depicted in this way.

Now we're in front of you saying we actually have a lived life.

We actually have a -!human life and experience.

And -we're in your churches and -!we're in your schools.

They're -like, Oh, we can't this is we -can't do this because we only -expected these people to be a -certain way.

We expect these -people just to be in the dark -and to and to confirm our reality that they were monsters.

So we come out -here say, Absolutely not -!monsters.

We kind of just like -you, right?

Except for, you -know, we've intentionally.

-We've been intentional about -our experiences and gender -!that rubs people the wrong way -!our experiences, tries to tell people that how they live and their experiences are wrong.

-Like us, creating space for -!trans people doesn't take away space from anybody else, culturally, socially or -otherwise.

Yeah, that part, -!that part, I mean, that's kind -of what I was expecting us to -dive into a little is just -like the self loathing that, -yeah, we perhaps go through -culturally anyway, like what -it points out for ourselves, -like, too close to realizing -how close we could be to -navigating our own gender -spectrum, if we were ever -allowed to, if, if religion -ever allowed us to, if you -!know our families ever allowed -us to, right, yeah, and I Think that's another part of to to the religious part of the religion, part of it, because, Christian -nationalism is kind of at the helm of what's happening in -this country.

They are.

They're a huge part of why there's this push, this -anti trans push, because it's -antithetical to these, these -traditional Christian values, -because these traditional -Christian nationalist values -about patriarchy, it's about -misogyny.

It's really about, -!you know, controlling.

A large -part of it is about -controlling women in the -church, in society and -!families, and so you're coming -after trans people under this -guise of protecting women and -girls, but women and girls -need to be protected from men -like you.

Trans women are -bothering people, and it's about policing who can be a woman and what -!a woman's supposed to be, what -!a woman isn't.

Nobody's paying -me any attention as a man.

No -!one's trying to police me as a -man.

You know, saying that -Christian nationalism and all -this religiosity, all it -really comes down to that.

A -lot of it is sexism and -controlling women.

You can't have these trans women out here.

That doesn't make -it doesn't compute to them.

-You know what I'm saying?

That's why they're not paying attention to me.

Trans -men are just invisible.

They -!don't even think about us when they're thinking about, Oh, we -don't want you have to go to -the bathroom of your assigned -gender.

Think about that.

-Again, there's an F on my -birth certificate.

My guy, -like, am I supposed to be in -the women's locker room?

-Right?

No, because it's not -about me.

You're trying to -control women.

And again, you -start off with this minority.

-If you could do that here, -here, here?

-!Are you running for president?

-Next?

What's happening?

Zoom -out.

You.

Zoom out.

I know -you're like, I do not want -this job.

-I got way too many skeletons -in my closet.

I got way too -open secrets.

Yeah, -yeah.

Oh, goodness, -I think, like what you were -just saying, I feel akin to, -in some ways, of just this -hyper visibility and hyper -invisibility as a black woman -in America, but with trans -folks like I don't know, has -!it, has it helped or harmed to -become more hyper visible, -because the more visible you -!are, the more easily folks can -!enact violence on you as well.

-Like, is being in the media -worth it at all?

-There are people always going -to be violent.

People are going to be assholes and awful.

But I really believe in -the goodness of humans, and I -think the vast majority of us -are good and are better, and -are curious, you know?

And that's the thing.

I don't, please folks don't get -caught up in the hype of what -we hear, in the stories that -!people cherry pick to elevate.

-!There are so many of us, trans -!folks, who come from beautiful -families, who love us, have -friends who love us, you know -what I'm saying, who have who -are understood, who are safe.

-Many, many, many of us.

Like, -there's so many of us out -!there.

It's not just that.

And -there are lots of sister and -heterosexual folks who aren't -!shit bags, who aren't terrible -to trans women, who aren't -terrible to trans people.

-Like, it's just, it's a yes -!and it's a yes and and me, I'm -really, I really want to do -the work of creating more -space to tell the stories on that side of it, like the places where we are experienced love and experience joy, because, like, the more you put out in the world is more you -get out, you know.

So if we -keep experiencing it, keep only talking about these divisive stories and the -stories of resilience and -heartbreak and betrayal.

I mean, not to say, I mean not to get too Woo, woo, not to -!say that's the only thing.

But -it does reverberate.

It can't -it does come back.

It becomes -a place in which people -operate from.

It becomes a -place in which people's -mindset is but what if we -start to tell more stories of -!our joy and of our acceptance?

-That's why my story is so -!important, and you've seen it.

-People love it.

You look to the comments of my story, you don't see not one bad comment, -not one.

And that just really -!touched my heart so much to be -able to consider continue my -!mother's legacy and it touched -so many different people with -this story, and that's what people want more of, and you'll create more of that -love.

And we can create more -love in our lives when we -start to focus on on that -good, or what makes us good, -what connects us, not that, -not the shit that, that that -!divides us.

And with my story, -!what I found is the thing that -connects us is that, is that -unconditional love.

For me, joy is the love I have in my life, that I've always had.

-!I've never bad, didn't have to -!fight for.

I didn't have to make -anybody love me.

My people -have always loved me and what brings me joy is to see my -community stood together -despite what's happening in -this world, despite all the violence.

We're always gonna love eachother.

We're -always gonna show up for each -!other.

So, you know, I'm cool.

-!thanks so much for joining us.

-If you want to continue to be -a part of the homegoings -family, stay in -touch at homegoings.co and -subscribe to the homegoings -podcast wherever you listen, -take good care.